Types of Sails for Penobscot 17

[mark47]

I am a first time boat builder. I am building the Arch Davis Penobscot 17. So far I believe it's going OK, the planking is done and I'm getting ready to turn it over and finish the inside. I've never sailed before, so I'm confused on which type of sail I should look into. I read an article on the sliding Gunter sail? If anyone has built a Penobscot 17 for sailing and has any ideas on the type of sail to use, I would appreciate it.

[David Gilroy]

I've had a Penobscot 17 for going on four years now. Mine is ketch-rigged, with the lug main and sprit mizzen as was suggested in the WoodenBoat design article that came out around four years ago. I like the rig because of its simplicity, ease of set-up, ease of fixing when out beyond an easy trip to a marine hardware store, and especially for the feeling of security that's built in to having a mizzen sail. By this I mean that on occasion, after having been knocked over by a large gust and having had large amounts of water joining me inside the boat, I have left the main loose, sheeted in the mizzen and tied it off, and the whole situation immediately calms down, allowing me to bail leisurely, and take stock of things. The boat completely takes care of herself.

I have heard, but have not experienced for myself, that both the sliding gunter and the schooner rig are faster than mine. I believe it. I also believe that the sliding gunter would tack more authoritatively than mine. Mine occasionally becomes ambivalent about whether its going to come all the way around.

If you want to come for a sail out of Guilford, CT this summer, let me know.

[misha_plekhanov]

David,

I am thinking of building Penobscot 17. But there is a very few, almost no information from people who use the boat. Could you please tell more about her abilities?
How many people it may take under oars? sailes?
What kind of weather is "critical" for a max load?
What is a worst weather you have been out?
Or may be you may refer my to some publications on a subject?

Regards,
Misha Plekhanov
St.Petersburg
Russia

[Todd Bradshaw]

Once more with feeling.....The tall rig for a Penobscot 17 is NOT a Sliding Gunter. It is a Gunter Rig, or if you need some way to qualify it, call it a "Folding Gunter". A Sliding Gunter has the upper spar plumb and it's attached to the mast with rings which only allow it to slide straight up and down on the mast while staying vertical all the time. It does not hinge at the butt and lay down on top of the boom when lowered as a folder does. "Sliding Gunter" has to be one of the most misused terms in sailing.

[Dane Allen]

To the untrained eye (mine) the Penobscott 17 looks a lot like the Whitehall style of boat, are they the essentially the same? Not sure if Whitehall is the name of a builder, design style or the boat itself but I've seen several images of various boats and plans designated as Whitehall. Anyway, I've already written too much for such a basic question.

[htom]

Looks like at a glance, and may be a grandchild, but isn't. The forefoot is cut away, the transom too broad, ... the sail plan far too complex.

"Whitehall" was the name given to a group of boats by different builders and designers used in harbor rowing service, famous for speed under oars and their wineglass transoms. What a "real" Whitehall boat is can become a rather heated dispute. John Gardner's Building Classic Small Craft has an amazing chapter about them. Or you can get a taste here. (http://www.whitehallrow.com/legacy_html/history.php)

[Tom Hunter]

Whitehall's come from Whitehall street in New York, they were used as water taxi's.

In boats optimizing for one thing often costs performance in another area. Whitehalls are optimized for rowing, so they don't sail as well as other types. But those types don't row as well.

That is why there is never a definitive answer to the "what is the best boat?" question.

[Thorne]

Some of us are listening, Todd, so despair not!

;0 )

This weekend I found myself explaining your definition of the term 'folding gunter' and saying that Nichols' book had that part wrong -- so the information is getting out there.

Unless you've already done so, you **might** consider writing him and laying it all out as a suggestion for an edit if his book ever goes into a second printing...as that was where the guy in question had gotten his use of 'sliding gunter'.

http://images.barnesandnoble.com/images/15950000/15951929.JPG

[David Gilroy]

Mark 47,
My boat has the lug ketch rig. As you know, Arch provides plans for the ketch, schooner and gunter rigs. I understand that the ketch is probably slowest of the three, but I chose it any way because of the free-standiing masts(quicker set-up at launch ramp) and I really like having a mizzen to sheet in hard and heave to when things have gotten hairy. The schooner also has free-standing masts, and I may yet play with that rig as well.
May you enjoy the whole process.

Misha,
Most # of people on board sailing and rowing: 4 adults and 1 4 year-old.
What weather critical for max load: with 4 on board, she'll stand up to more wind than when I'm alone.
What's worst weather I've been out in: got caught just as we were about to get back into harbor in an intense thunderstorm "cell". The lightning scared the crap out of me, but my brother and I were able to handle the high wind, including having to jibe both sails when it shifted on us. I have no idea how strong the wind was, but running before it with only the mizzen, we created a wake like a motor boat.
Publications: no idea, but talk with Arch Davis.
I'd love to hear where you sail and what it's like there.


Todd, thanks for your passion about terminology. I learned something.

[misha_plekhanov]

To David Gilroy:

Thank you David. You opinion will help to decide. I have ordered a study plans. Regards from Russia. Misha

[David Gilroy]

Misha,
It is my pleasure to talk with you. If you're ever in Connecticut, USA, please come for a sail. If you want crew to sail in St Petersburg, my wife and I are ready to go.
Best regards,
David

[misha_plekhanov]

David, thank you for an invitation, next week we going to close off sailing season, so hurry up to sail with us:) But seriously, if you will think of visiting Russia I will be happy to help. Here is a link to what we do: http://challenge.org.ru/angl/index_an.htm
Cheers, Misha

[Tom W.]

I built the Penobscot 17 a few years ago and have sailed her quite a bit. I sail on Lake Champlain when I can get up there and have been caught in some hard blows while out on the lake. I rigged her with the gunter, sails made by Stuart Hopkins. I like the rig, but it lacks the ease of sail reduction that the yawl has. I have it fitted out so it can be reefed quickly, but the large sail can be hard to manage if you are alone in the boat and have to reef. It does make a beautiful boat, though.
I have since built a Welsford Pathfinder, rigged as a yawl, and I have to say it is a great pleasure to sail. The Penobscot, as was pointed out by David, can be a bit tender when the wind picks up. It rows very well, though, and I love the lines.
http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47b7d703b3127ccec2791e60702800000010O00AZMWzVy4ct2 IPbz4a/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

[Tom W.]

If you would like to see more photos of the boat and the construction project go here:
http://www.shutterfly.com/lightbox/view.sfly?fid=cc329e89756af2d66d9889752d9a603c

[Rum_Pirate]

If you would like to see more photos of the boat and the construction project go here:
http://www.shutterfly.com/lightbox/view.sfly?fid=cc329e89756af2d66d9889752d9a603c I only got to the 'sign in' page. :confused:

[James McMullen]

Don't bother with a stayed rig for a sail & oar boat. Use one of the unstayed rigs that can be easily set up or struck down while afloat or you will completely miss out on the versatility of a true sail & oar type boat. My lug yawl rigged Rowan can go from all spars lying in the bottom of the boat to all sail up and drawing in less than 3 minutes! Your rowing will be vastly more enjoyable if you don't have to drag all that windage around of masts sticking up when they're not being used.