Prairie Islander need some cleets...

[NormMessinger]

Long ago you folks advised me on deck cleets for Prairie Islander. It is time to put that advise in to play. What I'm looking to do is install two forward, and two aft which should take any load they might be subjected.

Paladinsfo advised, if I remember right, that it should be possible to lift the boat with said cleets. I will run bronze straps down either side of a bulk head for each cleet. A 90 degree bend at the top of each strap will take the bolt through the cleet.

ABI makes bronze cleets which should do the job but they provide no specifications. I see two that should work. Why would one be prefered over the other?

http://www.abimarine.com/1371BRthumb.gif and http://www.abimarine.com/1360BRthumb.gif

Seems to me the #14 fasteners would be a little light but that is what they specify for the 6" cleet. That cleet will take a maximum line of 1/2" which should be plenty for a 20' boat.

So, what say ye all?

Thanks.

--Norm

[Noah]

I have the "small opening in the middle" cleats, and I wish that they were the "large opening in the middle ones."

The only reason I say this is that it is nice to run your docking lines through the middle of the cleat sometimes. This can either be in the form of a bowline, or you can use a pre-spliced loop and go through the middle and around the tines.

Either way, the small opening ones make it harder to do this. I have found that I can't run the loop through the center with mine. I wish I could.

I'm sure other people will have different opionions.

Noah

[paladin]

Go with the Herreschoff style cleat...much more useful and they hold line better...

[Concordia..41]

I'll cast a third vote for the "wide-opening" ones for both of the above reasons.

Don't know about #14 fastners though. Try thru-bolted with backing plates. That um er held my '22 once - damn outgoing tide... :eek: Oh well, at least I know they'll take the weight of the boat ...

- M

[ 05-18-2002, 02:01 AM: Message edited by: Concordia..41 ]

[Zane Lewis]

Just a though from down under. A lot or our marinas and fuel docks etc have 3/4 lines on them.

Also have to go with everyone else on the large hole

Zane

[paladin]

without REALLY going overboard there's no such thing as too large a cleat or too heavy a fastener....

[NormMessinger]

Great! For once my preconceived misconception has been validated! I'm going to call ABI Monday and see if I can get some numbers on the strength of the cleets and give serious consideration to an 8" rather than the 6".

Margo (and others), do you think a cleet on the deck with a backing plate would be strong enough. That would allow a better placement of the cleets and be a heck of a lot easier to install than bolting the cleet through the deck into an inverted "L" sandwich which transfers the load to a bulkhead. A #14 fastener would be a threaded "stove bolt" about 3/16" in diameter.

Thanks all.

--Norm

[Wooden Boat Fittings]

Norm, I'd make 8" the absolute minimum size, whatever sort of cleat you use -- 9" or 10" would be better. And there's no reason it can't be timber, you know. Why not make them yourself? (Check your email.)

Bolting down on to a bulkhead makes a lot of sense, although you don't see a lot done that way. But when you think of a mooring bitt and how it's fastened in partners and right down onto the keel, and then consider that mooring cleats are meant to do the same job as a bitt, then the large size and the bulkhead straps make a lot more sense.

If you're going to bolt the cleats to the deck then you clearly need a backing-plate. The best way to design a backing-plate, I think, is to consider the deck as being planked with paper instead of timber, and then working out how to make the backing-plate take all the load. Generally the answer is to make it span the full distance between deck beams or bulkheads, through which it can be fastened on at least two opposite sides with coach-bolts (lag-screws?) running horizontally.

The thickness depends on the distance it has to span. Guessing at Prairie Islander's deck structure, I would say that a 2" thick backing-plate would by no means be overkill.

Mike

[paladin]

Think of it this way, Norm.....you're in the middle of lake Michigan in a really bad storm...someone comes alongside and wants to save you...in 30 seconds you can rig a sling through the cleats and save Prairy Islander....plus yourself....shock loads are horrendous...on my original boat the designer called for 8 inch cleats through bolted to the deck for an OFFSHORE boat.....I went to 12 inch Herreschoff cleats straddling bulkheads and never have regretted it..and I have NEVER pulled a cleat outta the deck........just have the darn ocean raise your boat up about 6 feet, then totally disappear out from under her during a blow....THEN you will see how well your cleats are attached......

[Dave Hadfield]

I concur Norm; the cleats on the right (Herreshoff), made of bronze, 8in or larger, bronze bolted through the deck supported by a pad that connects to deck beams or a bulkhead or something very solid.

Making them out of hard-as-nails-hardwood would serve too.

[wolfietuk]

Dont forget to figure in an eye splice in the size of the rope you might take. 1/2 with a splice is almost twice as thick.

Rick

[NormMessinger]

Thank you very much all. Since I was working at my usual flash speed I didn't get to roughing out an 8" cleat cleat cleat cleat cleat (okay, I think I've got it.) yesterday but that is the way I'm leaning. Thanks Mike.

We coulda had some fun with the unusual way I spelt cleat as well. Go ahead, I'm not proud and my spell checker said she let it slid since she didn't grow up with cleat in her vocabulary.

Best.

--Norm

[Concordia..41]

Ah Norm, we all knew "cleet" was just the mid-west spelling ;)

- M

[Scott Rosen]

Hi Norm,

Both styles are excellent, but for different uses. The differences are not cosmetic. The one on the left is best used for running rigging, sheets, halyards, etc. if you look at the shape, you'll see that with just one turn around the cleat, the horns will act like a jam cleat and hold the line fast without having to make a hitch. That means it's safer for your sheets because you can release it quickly.

The Herreshoff cleat won't jam for you. If you take one turn around the Herreshoff cleat, you'll still be able to let the rope run. That's what makes it a good cleat for dock and mooring lines.

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Scott is right. But weight for weight a wooden cleat is better than a bronze one anyway.

There is more to wood cleats than meets the eye, too. The best type is the EG Martin type with a flat upper side and the taper of the horns on the dexk side of the cleat. Anyone can make a wood cleat but if you make about 5 practice ones out of scrap the results will be much better....

[Tim B]

Norm,

I must say that I'm very disappointed. I've been absent from the forum for about 3 weeks because of work. I saw your post and was expected to see some close up boat porn fresh from your garage-eh, workshop. Instead your talking store bought!

tim

[NormMessinger]

tongue.gif

Not any more, I ain't! But now the problem is where do I find some 6/4 black locust. I have only enough for two.

--Norm

[imported_Steven Bauer]

Hey Norm, did you find more black locust?
If not, I have these pieces:

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid21/p4e1a233e0ed7f5815d902948749720a1/fdb3bd12.jpg

They are only 1 1/8" thick. I could send you a piece, they are leftover from framing my Thistle. Could you share the design you will use?
Steven

[NormMessinger]

Whoa! Those are dandy pieces of Black Locust. I appreciate your generous offer. Unfortunatly (i.e., it is more blessed to give than receive), there is a piece speeding this way on a UPS truck even as I type. So, thanks anyway.

The cleats will be a minor modification of copywrited drawings I got from Mike Field. They can be had from http://www.woodenboatfittings.com.au./cleats.htm .

Best wishes.

--Norm

[JMAC]

I went through the same debate about what sort of cleat to use. My considerations were this....new, which was too much money, or used, which was not serendipitously appearing before me. A friend told me that Concordias have lovely locust cleats, then I read Hervey himself saying wood is better, then a different friend hauls out a chunk of locust unawares of my mission and bingo! Wooden cleats it is! Me and my bandsaw had a fun time of it. Two 1/4" carriage bolts in each and through 1 1/2" white oak blocking.

[JMAC]

...and another thing, aren't the Herreschoff pattern cleats hollow? What would that do for strength?

[NormMessinger]

Cleats in transition....
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid22/p1770c5e550d33e883edf005a79643e78/fda6bd88.jpg

I found cleats for Prairie Islander in a few pieces of "fire wood" from Tom Dugan's private reserve. All I had to do is cut away everything that did not look like a cleat. Before attacking the prize I made an 8" cleat from a 2x4 and sat it on the deck. Obviously way too small. These cleats are 11" built to plans I got from www.woodenboatfittings.com (http://www.woodenboatfittings.com) . Man! They should be hell fer stought, eh?

Thanks everyone for your help.

--Norm

[imported_Steven Bauer]

Nice job, Norm. I was a little disapointed that I couldn't contribute to Prairie Islander in this small way. Maybe I'll be quicker with the offer next time. Let us know if you need anything else.
Steven

[capt jake]

Uh, Steven, you could send the pieces to me?... That is, of course if the offer is still there. :D
Mighty fine lookin' wood there :D

[Tom Dugan]

Holy smoke! Eleven inches! Those pieces couldn't have been more than 11.5" to begin with! You obviously didn't need to cut much away. :eek:

Excellent job, considering the limitations imposed by the material.

Now Norm, should we take a poll?

Question: What type wood does this look like? :D

-T

[NormMessinger]

The freshly cut wood is so yellow I thought it must be Osage Orange though Tom's wood pile is far from what I thought the range of that tree was. Tom was pretty sure the wood is Black Locust but did have Mulberry, a close relative to Osage Orange in his wood pile as well. There is a lot of over lap in the the discriptions of the two woods. So who knows. Either should be just fine.

However, the design of the cleat has been called into question. One correspondent feels the hole in the middle is unnessary, removes too much material thus weakening the cleat and creating more surface to the weather. The flare of the base was also challenged. The picture suggests flare on the sides that is not there however on closer examination of Mike's drawing I made the flare on the ends thinner than he shows which makes the horns a bit thicker. Comments?

--Norm

[Bill Perkins]

The wooden horn cleats I've seen or used have all had solid bases ; I think the idea was to maximize strength , weather resistance , and solid bearing against the surface being mounted to . Some for running rigging had a round hole the end of the line could be rove thru and given a stopper knot to prevent loss , but that was it .

[ 06-15-2002, 06:29 PM: Message edited by: Bill Perkins ]

[Noah]

Black Locust is very yellow stuff. I just built a floor out of it for my Folkboat, and I was really surprized at the color. The two raw pieces look very much like the stuff that I got, so my bet is still on Locust.

Norm, I think that you have inspired me. I needed two cleats for the back, and I think they may be made out of locust.

Thanks for the pics,

Noah

[paladin]

Nice...Norm...I'm almost ready to swap my bronze cleats for wood................almost..not quite...

[Meerkat]

Just install a pair of Bob Cleeks :D

[Donn]

Originally posted by meerkat:
Just install a pair of Bob Cleeks :D Nope. Won't work. You'd never get the lines off 'em.

[NormMessinger]

Now there's a thought but there are already a lot of Cleeks in Prairie Islander. It wouldn't be as good a boat as it is without.

Heh heh~! If I got nothing else from this thread I learned to pay attention to how I spell cleak, oops, cleat.

--Norm

[Jack C]

Norm,

I'll wade into this mess and recommend the 8" bronze or stainless steel horn cleats (the ones in the rightmost picture in original post). I used those on my 18 ft. boat and am extremely glad that I didn't go any smaller. For your boat I'd even go to 10". And yes, I could pick up the boat on 2 cleats.

I'll even go so far here as to recommend NOT using wood for cleats (Shiver me timbers, lads!). They may look purdee, but they aren't as strong as metal.

Jack

[Wooden Boat Fittings]

Well, this thread has been sneaking along a bit unbeknownst me, so let me belatedly say, Whoopee, Norm, they look great. Congratulations.

I suppose since they're essentially our design, I probably shouldn't be saying a lot about these cleats. But timber cleats this size are fine for mooring if (a) they're made from solid unflawed hardwood, (b) the grain runs right along them, and (c) they're firmly bolted (not just screwed) to the sub-base (which itself is sufficiently strong.) The hole between the bolts doesn't materially weaken the fitting, and it is, as Bill suggests, very useful for deadending a line. (Naturally, you wouldn't make the hole larger than necessary -- about 10% larger than the design line size is sufficient.) And elongating the hole the way Norm has allows an eye-spliced end to be pushed through. But having a hole at all does mean of course that there's more surface area of the cleat to protect.

I think someone early on mentioned a Martin cleat, which is in fact a stronger fitting still as it has additional fastenings at each end. But in my view (and apparently Norm's as well) it's not as attractive a fitting, and given the size Norm has chosen the extra strength would in this case be overkill.

Finally, for timber versus metal, this is really a matter of personal choice. There are advantages and disadvantages to both. With all respect to Jack, a metal cleat of the same size is clearly a far stronger fitting, but obviously would also constitute overkill -- whatever is both necessary and sufficient, whether in metal or timber (or even green cheese,) is enough.

Mike

[Donn]

The cleats that came on LOON are 12" solid base teak. They're backed by 2" oak slabs which each span and are screwed to 2 of the boat's ribs. I don't know if you could lift the boat with them (why would you want to?) but they're mighty pretty.

Interestingly, the previous owner said that is unlucky to oil teak cleats, and these have never been...so I haven't either.

[imported_Steven Bauer]

I just got some more black locust - check it out. 15 board feet for $30

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid24/p60780113a00230b2f49118e900c90932/fd926bd3.jpg