Plywood

[Tom Lathrop]

The latest Messing About carries a reasoned rebuttal of Robb White's article where he (White)dismisses plywood as worthless for boatbuilding. Works for me.

[Thaddeus J. Van Gilder]

I wouldn't say completely worthless...I just wouldn't want it on my boat...

[NormMessinger]

It's a silly argument.

[Ariel]

Norm--you are right--it is a silly argument--beauty lies in the eye of the beholder--I have two plywood boats with epoxy coating--the oak on one has rotted and needs to be replaced--the plywood is fine. Maintenance is the key for any boat--fiberglass, wooden, steel, whatever....

[John Blazy]

Having not read the article, which would bias this writing a little anyway, I would have thought that most boatbuilders would really praise plywood, yet to hear that someone doesn't is a little odd. Perhaps they were referring to larger, or true traditional building, which I could really understand. My hat goes off to those out there that wrestle steamed wood, risk bandsaw breaks on heavy timbers, and understand the insane engineering that goes into working with something that moves all the time, and in only one direction - been there - done that in high-end furniture, although I'm not at all pretending to compare the two - as furniture making is to boatbuilding like go-kart building is to hand made Bugatti's (GENERALLY, ok? not talking 60K conference rooms compared to a weekend dinghy).

If it weren't for plywood, I would not be building my boats because woodworking is laborious enough. A qualifier might be better asked, Does plywood have a place in boatbuilding for those with limited TIME, budget, machinery, space, and skills, and boat size under 20-30 ft? Yes. Are these boats made by this group, compromised in structural strength, and water resistance? I don't think so. I am assuming epoxy / glass sheathing, of course for the hulls. If there is a question of structural strength or water resistance, take the time and money one would put into a solid wood hull, and use it for an extra 1/8" inch of epoxy/glass on the bottom.

All these are "givens" for most of you, and I am not at all berating wood planked boats, as I truly respect and admire what verges on "ship" building. The thing you don't want is too much negativity in ply that would discourage the less experienced. I want to see more wood boats on the water don't you?

Most of my ranting is because I just love the marraige of quality ply, epoxy & glass (with their kids - solid mahogony, SS & bronze).

[Mr. Know It All]

For reasons too numerous to list, I will probably never be a "traditional" wooden boat builder. That dosen't mean I don't like traditionally built wooden boats. On the contrary, I have nothing but the highest respect for the boats and those that build and restor them. Are plywood boats real wood boats? Even if they're not, they're what led me to being interested and learning about real wooden boats, so I guess they serve a purpose, :D besides they're fun.
Peace---> Kevin in Ohio

[Keith Wilson]

The latest issue of MAIB hasn't gotten to me yet (you think WB is erratic? there's a window of about 3 weeks for any given issue of MAIB), but it might be worth pointing out that Robb White is in no way a traditional boatbuilder. He generally builds lapstrake with Tulip Poplar, and epoxifies everything. In fact, he uses a very interesting tchnique, getting the whole shop (and the boat) REALLY hot - 130F or so, slathering on the epoxy, then turning on the air conditioning and lowering the temperature as much as possible. The idea is that the air in the wood will contract as the temperature falls, drawing the epoxy deep into the structure. I've tried something similar myself with small parts, using linseed oil rather than epoxy, and I got at least 1/2" of penetration from the nearest surface - of course, the fact that it was red oak may have helped. An interesting idea, if a little hard on the boatbuilder.

[Tom Lathrop]

Of course it's a silly argument but that is what makes Robb's article such a disservice to a lot of wanabe boat builders.

He is gaining a big following among readers of MAIB, many of which cannot read past the pithy prose to see the silliness of it. He is beginning to sound a little like the Limbaugh of boatbuilding. His own boatbuilding practices are quaint (or radical) to say the least. That's fine with me and as long as he and his customers are happy, who is to argue? I thought his article stepped way beyond the bounds of good journalism if the intent is to educate or inform.

And you really do have to read the articles to get the gist of this rant.

[On Vacation]

It just an old plywood boat, basic design, paint it every five to seven years, stays on the hard for months on end, put in the water, go to the Caribean, worms won't eat the keel out of it, never have to refasten the bottom, 1600 hp. cruise around 35 knots, takes about half the time to build the hull and the other half interior is as fine as any custom home and very rarely have eto do anything except wipe it down with a little polish or damp cloth.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid15/p5c5bb5290bd742edd732cf83a82bfe09/fde67f1d.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid15/p3fb1acdad7cb905c1e872120168951df/fde67ec5.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid22/p4620fe087eb37e06b81f7d6ffa73c980/fda5bc6b.jpg

Yes you can teach an old dog new tricks.

[ 01-16-2003, 04:03 PM: Message edited by: Oyster ]

[John Bell]

Oyster: Is that Alan Jackson's boat?

[On Vacation]

Nope just a worthless banker from upstate. ;) :D

[Peter Malcolm Jardine]

I don't think I would ever enter into an argument about it. Plywood is advancing as a product. It will continue to advance. Solid wood, as far as I know is still solid wood. Except, of course, that we will run out of the good boat building woods. ;)
Oyster, what is the finish on that boat? its beyooootiful

[ 01-16-2003, 05:39 PM: Message edited by: Peter Malcolm ]

[On Vacation]

The hull is Awlquip. The interior is spar varnish.

[Concordia..41]

The hull is sexy, the interior sensual.

- M

Good to see ya' back :D

[On Vacation]

Thanks Margo, but only in certain areas. Ice on the creek this morning and more to come. So I am warming my bones by the fireside for now. Spring is coming but not fast enough for me. Got plywood boats to build, goop to cure, and birdwatching trips next month. Come on spring!!!!! :D

[Mike Vogdes]

Hey Oyster...
would that boat be a Tiffany by any chance?

[On Vacation]

That be East Bay Boatworks from Harkers Island .

[casem]

We talked about this somewhere before. I haven't read many of his articles, but I think he coats both sides of the tulip poplar planks with fibeglass? How is that better than plywood?

[Peter Malcolm Jardine]

Here is what I really think. Plywood will eventually take over planking completely. Solid wood planking will become so expensive that it will be prohibitive to use.Exotic hardwoods for building boats will be in short supply. Plywood is already being made that is stronger, more flexible and longer living than a lot of conventional methods and materials. It's easier to work with and cheaper to buy.Its more stable, and any finish or veneer can be applied to it. It's generally lighter for its strenght, so small or large, a boat will be more energy efficient, wind or motor. As glue and paint technologies advance, plywood will march right along with them. End of rant.

[ 01-17-2003, 07:46 PM: Message edited by: Peter Malcolm ]

[gary porter]

I too read Whites article and was a bit taken back considering his method of building.
I love all types of wooden boatbuilding and certainly include plywood as a valuable asset. One thing I notice is that a lot of people seem to think this is a new product and or a new use of it. Plywood has been around along time and yes boats have been being built from it along time as well. Its also not just for small boats or what I call small.
If I recall the PT boats were plywood and something like 80' and 20'+ beam. I agree with Norm, its a silly argument and its a somewhat narrow minded person, no offense please, that feels the need to exclude anything plywood from the relm of wooden boats.
Gary

[Mark Van]

I think Robb White's articles are one of the best things about MAIB, they are very entertaining. They are written as opinion pieces and occasional rants, not news or how-to-build articles. I don't aggree with him about plywood, if it weren't for plywood and epoxy, I never would have built a boat.

I am currently sitting at my desk in a plywood boat, looking out the window at my Dad's plywood boat anchored near by, and in a little while I will get into a 12 foot plywood skiff and head to work.

[ 01-18-2003, 03:24 PM: Message edited by: Mark Van ]

[John Blazy]

Work must be very difficult over there huh Mark?

Maybe Robb Whites article was a publicity stunt to get people to read MAIB. Nothing like controversy to gain attention.

Consider the glues used to make plywood now days. Mostly heat and pressure activated phenolic resin I think. Some are electrically activated too I think (got too much info in my head). Bottom line is that even interior grades have waterproof bonds nowdays. I also read that epoxy / glass / plywood boats have higher strength to weight ratio's than FRP boats which is obvious.

[frameshop]

I'm on my 3rd boat. The first a haven 12 1/2, the second a cedar strip canoe, and the third a planing 24' fishing boat. ALL of wood. The first white oak, cedar, mahogany and teak. The second white and red cedar, ash and mahogany. The third mahogany. Does the fact that the first two used no plywood diminish the value, either intrinsically or aesthetically, of the third. I think not. Wooden boat building needs all the types of wood that are availabe to remain viable. Roger

[Mark Van]

A job inturrupts you're entire day.

[TomMcKinney]

Plywood is pretty old-- I seem to remeber a show about the Romans on Discovery or TLC where they said the Roman Legionaires sheild was basically made out of plywood-- in other words, the concept of using glue to fasten wood veneers to gether and make a better product has been around for a long time.

I wonder what would happen if they made some of the other laminated products in Marine Quality--LVL, Parralam, or even OSB-- I wonder what 3/4 OSB made with a marine glue would cost? More solid than ACX I bet.

I guess my point is, plywood is just another method of fastening wood fibers into the shape of a boat.

[steve sparhawk]

Cold moulding in handy sheets.

[Art Read]

All I can say is that you use what "works" for you based on observation, advise and the best technique you can manage. I'm sure many would decry my choice of a "fake" plywood/overlay deck on an otherwise "real wood" boat. As I waffled over the decision on whether to go with the specified, (in 1915) layed, canvas covered, cedar decking or the plywood, I watched as the boat was coming together and she slowly became more rigid with each component part of the structure. By the time she was ready for the decking, she was a LOT less "wobbly" than the empty shell I first put in the cradle after turning the hull over. But I could still grab the stem, shake her good and watch the bow and stern going in "slightly" different directions! :eek: Perhaps the layed cedar deck would have stiffened that up as well as the plywood did, but I've got to tell you, my mind rests easier knowing that the stucturural integrity that plywood added doesn't rely soley on the fit and fastenings of dozens of individual planks. (I've got enough of THEM just keeping the water out, thank you!) If my "fake" overlay does fail in a quarter century or so and rots out the marine grade plywood subdeck underneath, well, I'll just be grateful to it for having kept the rest of the boat from wracking unduely all that time and replace it cheerfully. (HA! ;) )

[ 01-23-2003, 03:44 PM: Message edited by: Art Read ]

[john welsford]

There is a company here in NZ and at least two in Australia
( otherwise known as Western New Zealand, its just that the Aussies like to think othewise) that make "tropical grade" OSB flooring using PMUF resins, ( phenol formaldehyde, very similar to resorcinol) . I've seen this stuff used to line feefer holds in fishing boats and it survives incredibly well. Good stuff.
On the MAIBB and Plywood, I've some articles coming up that will balance things up a bit, as most people know I get through a lot of plywood, and was for a while a production supervisor for a plywood company so have had the opportunity to learn a bit about it. I do use solid wood, and anticipate using around 5000 board feet in my present project, but will still have around 40 sheets of ply in her. Wonderful material, and plywood boatbuilding should never be compared with solid wood, its a different path and one that has made home boatbuilding a lot more accessible to many people.
JohnW

Originally posted by TomMcKinney:
Plywood is pretty old-- I seem to remeber a show about the Romans on Discovery or TLC where they said the Roman Legionaires sheild was basically made out of plywood-- in other words, the concept of using glue to fasten wood veneers to gether and make a better product has been around for a long time.

I wonder what would happen if they made some of the other laminated products in Marine Quality--LVL, Parralam, or even OSB-- I wonder what 3/4 OSB made with a marine glue would cost? More solid than ACX I bet.

I guess my point is, plywood is just another method of fastening wood fibers into the shape of a boat.

[Tom Lathrop]

Right you are John. There is a best use for just about every material. I can't see any use for anything like the OSB used in the home building trade in the US for boats though. It will have to be improved a long way to make it even adequate. One type, locally know as flakeboard, is fairly lightweight but weak. Another, which we call OSB is heavy with high glue content, hard to work and stronger than the flakeboard but not nearly as strong as plywood. In my opinion, neither is strong or stable enough for roof or floor decking, much less in boats.

The PUMF resin sounds like the same stuff used, along with paper, to make Formica and similar sheet materials used for countertops and other surfaces.

Looking forward to your articles.