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Spin_Drift
04-14-2008, 01:33 AM
What an injustice it would been if the child abuse was fabricated to get into the compound. (Could it be?) Things have been fabricated before to raid private citizens or foreign countries.

The 16 year old making the call has not been located. Maybe there never was a phone call. Could it have been fabricated?

These women and children are going through a very difficult and horribly scary time now. The children should not have been separated from their mothers....

NEW NEWS STORY:
Sect mothers appeal to Texas governor

The mothers of children removed from a polygamous sect's ranch in West Texas after an abuse allegation are appealing to Gov. Rick Perry for help, saying some of their children have become sick and even required hospitalization.

In the letter, a copy of which was obtained by The Associated Press, the mothers from the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints also say children are "horrified" by physical examinations they have undergone while in state custody.

The mothers said the letter was mailed Saturday. Perry spokesman Robert Black said Sunday that he had not seen the letter and couldn't comment.

Some 416 children were rounded up and placed in temporary custody 11 days ago after a domestic violence hot line recorded a complaint from a 16-year-old girl. She said she was physically and sexually abused by her 50-year-old husband.

The one-page letter, signed by three women who claim they represent others, says about 15 mothers were away from the property when their children were removed.

"We were contacted and told our homes had been raided, our children taken away with no explanation, and because of law enforcement blockade preventing entering or leaving the ranch, we were unable to get to our homes and had no-where to go," it said.

"As of Wednesday, April 9, 2008, we have been permitted to return to our empty, ransacked homes, heartsick and lonely."

The mothers said they want Perry to examine the conditions in which the removed children have been placed.

"You would be appalled," the letter said. "Many of our children have become sick as a result of the conditions they have been placed in.

Some have even had to be taken to the hospital. Our innocent children are continually being questioned on things they know nothing about. The physical examinations were horrifying to the children. The exposure to these conditions is traumatizing them."

Asked about claims that children were hospitalized, state Child Protective Services spokeswoman Marissa Gonzalez said she had not seen the letter and would have to review it before commenting.

A judge will decide this week whether the children will remain in state custody or return to their families. Hearings are scheduled for Monday and Thursday.

On Sunday, state officials enforced a judge's order to confiscate the cell phones of the women and children removed from the ranch.

The order was sought by attorneys ad litem for 18 FLDS girls in the state's custody, Gonzalez said.

Reading from the court document, Gonzalez said attorneys reasoned that cutting off communications would "prevent the possible tampering of witnesses."

It was unclear how many phones were taken Sunday. Gonzalez did not know whether the document could be released.

Affidavits filed by child protection workers said they found a pattern of abuse at the Yearning for Zion ranch in Eldorado, about 45 miles south of San Angelo.

The 1,700-acre fenced ranch, a former game preserve, was bought by the FLDS in 2003. A number of large dormitory-style homes have been built, along with a small medical center, a cheese factory, a rock quarry, a water treatment plant and a towering, white limestone temple.

The children are being housed in San Angelo's historic Fort Concho and at the nearby Wells Fargo pavilion. About 140 women from the ranch are also with the children, although they are not in state custody.

On Saturday, five FLDS women staying at the fort told Salt Lake City's Deseret News that the temporary shelter is cramped — cots, cribs and play pens are lined up side by side — and that many of the children are frightened.

Authorities said they have not yet located the teenage mother whose call for help triggered the raid at the ranch.

Texas authorities have issued an arrest warrant for the alleged husband, a man identified as Dale Barlow of Colorado City, Ariz., one of two communities on the Utah-Arizona border that have been the traditional home base of the secretive church.

Texas Rangers met with Barlow and his probation officer in St. George, Utah, on Saturday but did not arrest him. Barlow is serving three years' probation after pleading no contest to sexual misconduct with a minor — a teenager to whom he was spiritually married.

"As for Mr. Barlow, we are continuing to look into whether we have a warrant on the correct person," said Tela Mange, spokeswoman for the Texas Department of Public Safety. "Until we are able to locate and talk with the complainant it will be difficult for us to know for certain the correct identity of the alleged suspect."

The sect practices polygamy in arranged marriage that often pair underage girls with older men. The faith believes the practice will brings glorification in heaven. The mainstream Mormon church, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, does not practice polygamy.

paladin
04-14-2008, 02:34 AM
That's one of the first things that entered my mind......a search and destroy mission not based on probable cause......no witness, no case....potential abuse of power...

paladin
04-14-2008, 02:57 AM
So far all they have is an unsubstantiated allegation by someone who doesn't wish to be found or seen.....which makes it not real.....at least so far....and what also makes it technically an illegal raid....

The Bigfella
04-14-2008, 03:29 AM
I don't know about the technical illegality of the raid ........ but if there's kids being done over like that, I'm in favour of a testicle roast. I'd happily help feed the testicles to their former owners too.

Andrew Craig-Bennett
04-14-2008, 03:37 AM
No.

Tylerdurden
04-14-2008, 04:28 AM
Well thanks to coming to my aid when I pointed out the need for caution on your Hysteria thread Spin. I did get my arse handed to me on a plate to the point of idiots saying I was condoning child abuse.

http://www.jossip.com/gossip/200607-nancygrace.jpg Nancy Grace award.

Tylerdurden
04-14-2008, 04:30 AM
I don't know about the technical illegality of the raid ........ but if there's kids being done over like that, I'm in favour of a testicle roast. I'd happily help feed the testicles to their former owners too.

Somehow the thought of you and testicles fits...... Wonder why?

Uncle Duke
04-14-2008, 05:02 AM
Spin - is the questin whether the ranch was raided unjustly or unlawfully?
If it's the former - then I would say 'no'. Removing children from predation by adults is a reasonable and moral thing to do.
If it's the latter, then I would say 'possible'. It is not necessarily illegal to act upon anonymous sources - the question to be answered would be if any source even existed. If it did, but now is hiding, that's OK. If it was fabricated, then probably not.
Just my opinion, I could be wrong.

Tylerdurden
04-14-2008, 05:08 AM
It is not necessarily illegal to act upon anonymous sources

Actually it is, Just not in east Germany. The Stasi used it to great effect.

Uncle Duke
04-14-2008, 07:08 AM
Originally Posted by Uncle Duke View Post
It is not necessarily illegal to act upon anonymous sources
Mark replies:

Actually it is, Just not in east Germany.
You are correct if what you mean, but don't say, is that it is illegal for the police to act without judicial review leading to a warrant.
Judges can legally issue warrants based on an anonymous tip if they feel that (1) the information is credible (2) based on prior behavior or (3) supported by prior knowledge.
They can, of course, also refuse to issue a warrant. This is part and parcel of the 'checks and balances' system. You can argue that the system does not work or is abused, and certainly find good examples of each, but that does not mean that the system is wrong in principle or that it does not exist.
Example: John Does is arrested on drug trafficking charges and his house and car are searched. Later the police receive an anonymous tip that he also has a storage unit in a different place. The police having determined that there is some likelihood that John Doe did contract for a storage unit, a judge might issue a warrant to search that storage unit. Not only legal, but reasonable.

Tylerdurden
04-14-2008, 07:20 AM
Ok where is the supporting evidence in Texas?

George Roberts
04-14-2008, 07:23 AM
I don't know if the invasion was legal or not but ...

Considering that one of the 16 year olds had 4 children, it appear that the invasion was needed.

Tylerdurden
04-14-2008, 07:31 AM
I don't know if the invasion was legal or not but ...

Considering that one of the 16 year olds had 4 children, it appear that the invasion was needed.

I agree in intervention, just not invasion and a roundup and mass arrest based on non existent or very shaky evidence.
Past experience should be a guide in how not to handle such a delicate situation.
Waving the flag of righteousness does not diminish the suffering and trauma the children are dealing with now.
Where is the freakin' common sense?

Concordia...41
04-14-2008, 07:38 AM
Well, according to the piece on MSNBC.com, the letter, which hasn't been recieved in the Governor's office, but somehow was leaked to the media was signed by three of the women, who say they represent the others.

I don't doubt for a second that they want their children back. I don't doubt for a second that they (and the children) are traumatized. And I don't doubt for a second that the media (which ever side you lean to) is making too much out of it.

The truth is in the middle somewhere.

Tylerdurden
04-14-2008, 07:40 AM
Well, according to the piece on MSNBC.com, the letter, which hasn't been recieved in the Governor's office, but somehow was leaked to the media was signed by three of the women, who say they represent the others.

I don't doubt for a second that they want their children back. I don't doubt for a second that they (and the children) are traumatized. And I don't doubt for a second that the media (which ever side you lean to) is making too much out of it.

The truth is in the middle somewhere.

Smartest statement on this thread yet.

Andrew Craig-Bennett
04-14-2008, 08:03 AM
Lessee:

1. A police officer, unlike another citizen, may make an arrest if he or she reasobably considers that an arrestable offence has been committed.

2. He or she may enter upon private premises in order to do so.

3. Sex with a minor is an arrestable offence.

4. A 16 year old mother is prima facie evidence that sex with a minor has taken place.

QED.

Tylerdurden
04-14-2008, 08:09 AM
Lessee:

1. A police officer, unlike another citizen, may make an arrest if he or she reasobably considers that an arrestable offence has been committed.

2. He or she may enter upon private premises in order to do so.

3. Sex with a minor is an arrestable offence.

4. A 16 year old mother is prima facie evidence that sex with a minor has taken place.

QED.

So you arrest over 400 children?

No one has been charged other than obstruction.

Andrew Craig-Bennett
04-14-2008, 08:17 AM
Your question was whether it was lawful for police officers to enter the compound.

So you support polygamy and sex with children?

Remind me of the differences between the United States and the Taliban...

Tylerdurden
04-14-2008, 08:22 AM
Your question was whether it was lawful for police officers to enter the compound.

So you support polygamy and sex with children?

Remind me of the differences between the United States and the Taliban...

Like I said, witch hunt. No caution, no sense. Just accuse everyone until they shut up.

Idiot should run Guantanamo

Uncle Duke
04-14-2008, 08:29 AM
Mark says:

So you arrest over 400 children?
You probably want to choose your words to accurately reflect reality. 400 children have not been arrested. 416 minors have been removed from what was considered to be an unsafe and unhealthy situation. Whether or not that is justified is open for discussion, but they have not been arrested.
No reason to exaggerate - the situation is serious enough by itself.

Uncle Duke
04-14-2008, 08:38 AM
Mark asks:

Ok where is the supporting evidence in Texas?1) There exists a sect (FLDS) which actively supports forced marriage between unconsenting minor females and adult males.
2) That practice includes unconsenting sex between adult males and minor females leading in some cases to unwanted pregnancies.
3) The leader of that sect has been arrested and convicted on charges of accomplice to rape.
4) The sect owns a 'compound' where members of the sect live according to the principles above.
5) 2 calls are received (March 29 and March 30) reporting forced marriages (as above), unwanted sex (as above) and adult males beating their minor 'wives'.

The reporting of behavior in #5 constitutes possible evidence of illegal activity. It is supported by #1 and #2 which constitute motive, by #3 which constitutes history of illegality and by #4 which constitutes opportunity.

Pretty simple.

George Roberts
04-14-2008, 09:28 AM
All that is needed for evil to prevail is for good people to stand by and do nothing.

To many people obey the law rather than do what is right.

I am stuck in that situation now. I have an appointment to see my lawyers (plural) tomorrow. I hope to find a resolution that does not require me to carry a handgun.

The legal thing to do is not carry. The right thing to do is carry. Life is tough. And then we die.

Spin_Drift
04-14-2008, 09:57 AM
Your question was whether it was lawful for police officers to enter the compound.

So you support polygamy and sex with children?

Remind me of the differences between the United States and the Taliban...

Without concrete evidence of child abuse, I think it must have been a fabricated story so they can raid the compound.
(Another one of these unlawful sieges was the Waco Massacre.)

I don't really know the laws, but I think that without hard evidence the raid was against those people's rights to their home, life, liberty and privacy amongst other things guaranteed in the Constitution.

Andrew, Mark was referring to illegal raid on trumped up changes and an unlawful siege of children. He does not support polygamy or sex with children. Don't even imply such a thing.

For me, this is difficult to comprehend. It's confusing, I don't know what is true, what is lied about them... What real, un-fabricated, concrete evidence they have against these people?

Are these people really child molesters?

Do they really marry these young children?

Do they have many wives?

Are there women voluntarily married to a man who has other wives? Why? Why can't the men have more than one wife if the wives agree to it? (It's more help with household chores and kids.)

How do these men really treat their wives?

Are they kind and very good to them? (They must be for why would the women otherwise stay with them)

What is their religion like?

Does it refer somewhere in the Bible to having more than one wife?

Why does the government go and raid compounds like this and Waco? What are they afraid of?

Alexander2
04-14-2008, 10:07 AM
Are they kind and very good to them? (They must be for why would the women otherwise stay with them)



I don't know the specifics of this case but women stay with bad men for a variety of reasons. Fear, religious teachings,financial support, fear, self esteem problems, belief that the man would change, a whole long list of things.
The fact that they stayed in no way suggests they were being treated kindly or well.

Uncle Duke
04-14-2008, 10:11 AM
Spin, let me take a shot a a couple of your questions

Are these people really child molesters?By legal definition, yes. The have sex with unconsenting minor females.


Do they really marry these young children? They engage in what they describe as a "spiritual" marrriage - not sanctioned by anyone besides their own sect.


Do they have many wives? Many have more than one wife, yes, of differing ages. They are assigned wives through some process known only to the (male) elders.


Are there women voluntarily married to a man who has other wives? Why? Not voluntarily in many cases. The women are raised with very, very minimal education and are prevented from interacting with the world outside the compound. They are strongly told, from birth, that marriage is not voluntary - that it is their duty to 'marry' anyone whom the elders assign them to. In almost all cases they have no other knowledge of the world.


Why can't the men have more than one wife if the wives agree to it? (It's more help with household chores and kids.) The only reason is that it is contrary to laws and mores of the United States. Note that it is also not allowed by the Mormons, from whom they broke off to form the sect.


How do these men really treat their wives? As chattel, as far as reports go. Wives are not allowed education, not allowed to question any males, are not allowed access to the outside world. Husbands are allowed to beat wives who question or disobey.


Are they kind and very good to them? (They must be for why would the women otherwise stay with them)The wives have nowhere else to go. They have no property, no resources and no knowledge that the world is different anywhere else.


What is their religion like?Fundamentalist, by the definition that all beliefs are based on selected 'fundamental' principles. In this case, those fundamental principles are chosen by the founders of the sect and those principles include marriage to and sex with girls and women for whom 'consent' is not an option.

Cuyahoga Chuck
04-14-2008, 10:12 AM
Mark replies:

You are correct if what you mean, but don't say, is that it is illegal for the police to act without judicial review leading to a warrant.
Judges can legally issue warrants based on an anonymous tip if they feel that (1) the information is credible (2) based on prior behavior or (3) supported by prior knowledge.
They can, of course, also refuse to issue a warrant. This is part and parcel of the 'checks and balances' system. You can argue that the system does not work or is abused, and certainly find good examples of each, but that does not mean that the system is wrong in principle or that it does not exist.
Example: John Does is arrested on drug trafficking charges and his house and car are searched. Later the police receive an anonymous tip that he also has a storage unit in a different place. The police having determined that there is some likelihood that John Doe did contract for a storage unit, a judge might issue a warrant to search that storage unit. Not only legal, but reasonable.

You are wasting your breath.
Tylerdurdin has the cement reinforced idea that the entire world is peopled by those too stupid to see the whole thing is crumbling around their heads. All but him, of course.
Unhappily, no amount of well documented examples, socratic reasoning, citations of law or common sense will ever change his view.

Milo Christensen
04-14-2008, 10:15 AM
Are these people really child molesters?

Do they really marry these young children?

Do they have many wives?



The answers to your questions are all yes.

How can you, as the mother of a teen age daughter, even begin to question the need to remove these children?

Uncle Duke
04-14-2008, 10:20 AM
Mile, to Spin_Drift:

How can you, as the mother of a teen age daughter, even begin to question the need to remove these children?
I think that the question comes from an incomplete understanding of the situation. Gaining a more complete understanding is exactly why she is asking the questions.
I have complete faith that the further understanding will result in new opinions about necessary action. Spin has always stood out, in my opinion, as being a careful and reasoned thinker.

Ian McColgin
04-14-2008, 10:22 AM
I see no reason to instantly assume the Texas police authorities simply fabricated the tale of a phone call to embark on the raid. Anyone who has done any child welfare work (in my work I represented the accused parent) knows that kids make these calls sometimes out of adolencent pique and tragicly at times for real.

In most states this sort of raid on the basis of an anonomous call would not be lawful but it is in Texas. In most other states, a self-isolated community like that really can have rampant child and spouse abuse that's never dealt with because there's no way a couple of social workers could just stroll around.

There was never a good way to do this, whether you leave it alone or if you charge in. And even if there is abuse, the trauma to dislocating children from even a bad home is a severe test to the system. Imagine taking out over 400 kids. At the bare minimum, someone should have thought this part through a little.

I don't know if in the now incredibly charged atmosphere there is any chance of getting justice and mercy for anyone.

G'luck to those women and children.

Spin_Drift
04-14-2008, 10:23 AM
The answers to your questions are all yes.

How can you, as the mother of a teen age daughter, even begin to question the need to remove these children?

Milo, like I say, I'm confused about this whole thing. Not knowing what was fabricated, what was real...:confused: To my understanding they have no concrete evidence. I am asking questions on my post. If you know something I don't, please let me know.

I think child molestation is a horrible thing and if they indeed molested the children, the children should be removed to a safe environment.

pcford
04-14-2008, 10:26 AM
Your question was whether it was lawful for police officers to enter the compound.

So you support polygamy and sex with children?

Remind me of the differences between the United States and the Taliban...

The difference is...for some of our citizens on the far right...that the American Taliban drives far better automobiles.

But the base motivating factor is the same, claiming that voices from some unseen superior being floating on a cloud being overide legal and humanistic duties.

Tylerdurden
04-14-2008, 10:35 AM
Dance of the brain dead.

So far the only concrete evidence is one 16 year old girl with kids.
Guess every neighborhood in America should prepare for a raid.

No supporting info posted on that.

If that is the sole basis of removing (arrest does fit the description, check the dictionary) 400 children than every neighborhood is due for a raid.
I urge caution and deliberate thought in respect to law and the constitution. I defend no one other than those 400 kids who now are locked up and forced into interrogation's over and over again on the slimmest of margins.
If anything the basis for investigation would be to explore welfare fraud but that is not salacious enough to get the witch hunt going.


Of course not one here has brought forward anything else except to say if I disagree I am supporting child molesters.
Nuff said, no real thought here.

Some food for thought for the brain dead though... maybe one will learn from past mistakes and figure the careful and deliberate investigation will go much farther in finding justice.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McMartin_preschool_trial

Cuyahoga Chuck
04-14-2008, 10:47 AM
To view this in a different prospective we have to look at other "religions" that ended up in mass death. Jonestown and the Branch Davidians.
There is not a politican alive that wants to have anything like that on his plate. It's a no win situation. To intervene ahead of time may cut your political career off at the knees as may doing nothing and letting the bodies pile up. The authorities in Texas are understandably nervous and as far as we know dotted all i's and crossed all t's. If there is a flaw in their actions the law suits will fly and political careers will go kaput.
The Texas group is an offshoot of another group centered in Hildale Utah. The Hildale group has a long dosier of allegations that have been, till now, hard to prove because everyone knowlegable is taught from birth to never reveal what goes on within the clan.
So far the Texas authorities have admitted to a lot of things. One was they hadn't anticipated ending up with in excess of 400 children to care for. Children whose whole world was inside the walls of that compound. Children who saw all strangers as devils out to harm them.
This situation is very messy and no politician with half a brain would ever get involved in it voluntarily. In short, there was no government plot to invade the sanctity of this sect. Once charges were made they couldn't be ignored. And the fact that the Grand Poobah of this troop, Gordon Jeffs, was already in prison for suborning illicit sexual activity with minors ans was waiting to be tried on other charges didn't help one bit.

Tylerdurden
04-14-2008, 10:50 AM
http://writingcompany.blogs.com/this_isnt_writing_its_typ/images/lynch_mob.jpg

Uncle Duke
04-14-2008, 10:52 AM
I urge caution and deliberate thought in respect to law and the constitution.
You urge caution and deliberate thought in respect to the law and constitution? Well, except for yourself, perhaps, regarding your pronouncements about the illegality of authorities acting on the basis of anonymous information.

Of course not one here has brought forward anything else except to say if I disagree I am supporting child molesters.
I think that you need to read more carefully. Many people on this thread have put forth careful and thought-out opinions based on the facts as known. You might want to consider that people are not 'striking at you' as much as they are 'striking back after being struck'.
Never mind - this thread isn't about you anyway. It's about the advisability of action in the case of the FLDS compound in Texas.

Tylerdurden
04-14-2008, 11:01 AM
Show me where it says anywhere on this thread more than an anonymous phone call or the fact a 16 year old has kids Duke.

Any other evidence you wish to bring forward?

Tylerdurden
04-14-2008, 11:11 AM
Funny, I was thinking about Edenton, North Carolina while reading this thread.

Mark, calling anyone who disagrees with your point of view 'brain dead' is silly.

Fred I have a couple here on this thread and the other original thread imply I support child molesters because of my stance.

Brain Dead is mild compared to what I would call them in personhttp://www.woodenboat.com/forum/images/icons/icon10.gif

Milo Christensen
04-14-2008, 11:17 AM
. . . To my understanding they have no concrete evidence. I am asking questions on my post. If you know something I don't, please let me know.

I think child molestation is a horrible thing and if they indeed molested the children, the children should be removed to a safe environment.

Sorry, I thought you knew about the confidential, inside informant (http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&tab=wn&ned=us&q=FLDS+informant&btnG=Search+News) that had been working with the sheriff for several years. That piece of information hasn't had anywhere near the media play as the phone calls from the alleged 16 year old victim that hasn't come forward after placing the phone calls that kicked this into high gear. Remember this sect has only been in this compound in Texas for 4 or 5 years and has been receiving folks from the other compounds in Utah and Arizona where rape convictions have already been made.

Maybe 57 men (that's the highest # reported, at least 139 women of child bearing age, 416 children).

Tylerdurden
04-14-2008, 11:25 AM
" According to a request for a search warrant unsealed today by a Texas judge, Schliecher County Sheriff David Doran has been working with a confidential informant who has shared information about the ranch over several years."

Several Years? And now a parade?

Ian McColgin
04-14-2008, 11:28 AM
Good references Milo. Thank you.

It may turn out that the Sheriff Doran gets more criticism for taking too long to raid. I've C&P'd a related story especially for Doran's unintentionally hillarious line in paragraph five. He has a case but that quote will make Mark gag.

Texas authorities defend sect raid

By BETSY BLANEY and MICHELLE ROBERTS, Associated Press WritersThu Apr 10, 5:46 PM ET

It was no secret that a polygamist sect that built a compound in the West Texas desert believed in marrying off underage girls to older men. And the sheriff had an informant for four years who was feeding him information about life inside the sect.

But authorities say their hands were tied until last week, when they finally obtained the legal grounds to move against the group.

The trigger for the raid was a hushed phone call from a terrified 16-year-old girl to a family-violence shelter to report that her 50-year-old husband had beaten and raped her. State troopers put into action the plan they had on the shelf to enter the 1,700-acre compound, and 416 children, most of them girls, were swept into state custody because of suspicions that they were being sexually and physically abused.

On Thursday, state and local law enforcement authorities defended their decision to leave the sect alone for four years after it moved in.

"We are aware that this group is capable of" sexually abusing girls, Sheriff David Doran said. "But there again, this is the United States. We are going to respect them. We're not going to violate their civil rights until we get an outcry."

Doran said it was not until after the raid began that he learned that the sect was, in fact, marrying off underage girls at the compound and had a bed in its soaring limestone temple where the girls were required to immediately consummate their marriages. Also, investigators say a number of teenage girls there are pregnant.

Authorities in Texas suspected there would be trouble ever since members of the renegade Mormon splinter group — the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints — bought an exotic game ranch in Eldorado in 2004 and began building the ranch.

Warren Jeffs, the sect's prophet and spiritual leader at its longtime headquarters in the dusty, side-by-side towns of Hildale, Utah, and Colorado City, Ariz., was charged in 2005 and 2006 with forcing underage girls into marriages there. He was convicted in September in Utah of being an accomplice to rape and is serving up to life in prison.
Doran had been making occasional visits to the Eldorado compound — he even called to tell members of Jeffs' capture in 2006 — but he said he saw nothing to warrant a criminal investigation. Most of those milling around the compound would scatter when he and a Texas Ranger visited, he said.

"You can only press someone so far without having a criminal investigation going on," the sheriff said. "This group doesn't openly talk and they do not openly answer questions."
Doran said he had an informant who was "instrumental in teaching me the group's ways." But he declined to say whether the informant, a former sect member, was in Texas, or Utah or Arizona.

Barry Caver, a Texas Ranger who sometimes went with Doran to the compound, said a general welfare check wouldn't have produced much. "They would allow us on the property to the extent that we could talk to the main three or four people" only, Caver said.

Texas Attorney General Gregg Abbott said that despite other states' investigations into Jeffs and FLDS, Texas authorities had to wait until they had evidence of wrongdoing in this state to act. He said authorities handled the case properly.

"You cannot go in and bust in someone's house if there's not probable cause to do so," Abbott said.

Jonathan Turley, a George Washington University law professor who has written about polygamy, said even Jeffs' conviction was not enough to barge in on the sect in Eldorado.
"You cannot use stale evidence," Turley said. "They would need a contemporary statement or evidence at trial that an individual at the compound is practicing polygamy."
The man alleged to be the 16-year-old girl's husband, Dale Barlow, is a registered sex offender who pleaded no contest to having sex with a minor in Arizona.

"I do not know this girl that they keep asking about," he told Utah's Deseret Morning News on Wednesday. "And I have not been to Texas since I was a young man back in 1977."

Officials still have not identified the 16-year-old girl among the children and the 139 women being held at two sites in Texas.

"When you're dealing with a culture like this, they're taught from very early on that they don't answer questions to the point," Doran said. "All of that is certainly being sorted out right now."
___

Associated Press writers Michael Graczyk in Houston and Jim Vertuno in Austin contributed to this report.
Copyright © 2008 The Associated Press.

Milo Christensen
04-14-2008, 11:48 AM
Good references Milo. Thank you. . . .

No problem. I'm just waiting for the Mitt Romney connection, myself.

Tylerdurden
04-14-2008, 11:57 AM
This one?

"We are aware that this group is capable of" sexually abusing girls, Sheriff David Doran said. "But there again, this is the United States. We are going to respect them. We're not going to violate their civil rights until we get an outcry."

Priceless!

Uncle Duke
04-14-2008, 12:01 PM
Mark throws:

Show me where it says anywhere on this thread more than an anonymous phone call or the fact a 16 year old has kids Duke.
Any other evidence you wish to bring forward?
It has been pointed out, on this thread, that an anonymous phone call can be considered actionable given other factors and that those factors may be in place in this situation.
Or, are you asking something else? If so, it sure would be interesting to know what.

Uncle Duke
04-14-2008, 12:12 PM
Question for Spin_Drift:
Is any of this helping with your original (and follow-on) questions?

Cuyahoga Chuck
04-14-2008, 12:42 PM
Another question to Spin_Drift. Do you have any avenues for up to the minute news other than the web? All the newspapers of record and creditable news services are busting their buns trying to obtain and publish information about this story. It's no big secret.
Also, this story has constitutional implications that will take years to sort out. So don't expect a quick resolution. One very big question is to what extent can someone claim a religious exemption from the laws of the land?

Chris Ostlind
04-14-2008, 01:36 PM
MArk, I gotta say that I do enjoy a lot of what you post, though I am not a traditional conspiracy theorist by nature.

On this business of you getting your neck hair all up and on display over the polygamists in Texas just brings many things to the fore regarding your willingness to jumpt to conclusions.

I live in Utah, Mark and talk to folks, daily, who used to be of the this stream of polygamist thought for many generations. There are many deep and complex associative issues connected here of which you, apparently, have little reference.

To boil this down to a simple, rights issue, is a thing that places you in the dunce cap region of thinking for complex issues of human nature that are grounded in religious thought.

Do some more homework, talk to a vast group of people who believe in such things and then, and only then, allow yourself to come to a conclusion that allows all the issues to be on the table.

Just for the record, I do not condone the forced screwing of 14 year old girls by men who have already had their best years as biological forms. I find that practice disgusting in its act and find the thinking behind their behavior even less than that.

You have made your argument on the legality and Constitutional Rights side of the issue and it pales in comparison to the destruction of the life of a recently menstruating girl in the monstrous control of this process.

If the State makes one error in the saving of a girl's life in this regard, while preventing the acts to be abused on others of a similar age and status, then I will absorb that mistake as but one element in favor of the humanity of what I consider to be precious.

Tylerdurden
04-14-2008, 04:02 PM
I am not defending the church. I don't not believe in any organized religion. I believe it promotes this kind of thing in every religion.

I think the whole incident from start to finish is just ham handed.
and I believe the prosecution of this case will be so messed up that the guilty will walk and once more the kids will pay the price.
No one can tell me that 400 kids have all been messed with.
Their minds may be full of bull****e but so is the twelve year old watching MTV or Bad Girls club in their room.
I say if its about kids, make it about kids and make the investment to do this right. If we cannot debate the way this is being handled we are doomed to repeat it over and over again. So if you think I should shut up "I am doing it for the children"

Once again only time will tell if I am right but that is my opinion.

Cuyahoga Chuck
04-14-2008, 04:21 PM
I am not defending the church. I don't not believe in any organized religion. I believe it promotes this kind of thing in every religion.

I think the whole incident from start to finish is just ham handed.
and I believe the prosecution of this case will be so messed up that the guilty will walk and once more the kids will pay the price.
No one can tell me that 400 kids have all been messed with.
Their minds may be full of bull****e but so is the twelve year old watching MTV or Bad Girls club in their room.
I say if its about kids, make it about kids and make the investment to do this right. If we cannot debate the way this is being handled we are doomed to repeat it over and over again. So if you think I should shut up "I am doing it for the children"

Once again only time will tell if I am right but that is my opinion.

Mark is WORRIED! You peasants will never understand the depth of his WORRYING!. It's monumental. It's supercalafagilistic! It's almost impossible to explain. In fact, it is impossible to explain. If you re-read everything bearing his avatar you will notice that it's all, kind of, a worrier's rosary where the same lament is repeated "ad infinitum". Government= evil, naziism, repression, police state, etc., etc. If only government would go away we could all retire to our evergreen bowers and live in the state of nature forever more. Oh, J.J. Rousseau we need you now more than ever!

htom
04-14-2008, 04:31 PM
At the moment, I am inclined to think that the raid was a) legal, b) moral, c) necessary, d) timely, and e) much better conducted than the affair at Waco.

It is going to be a real mess to sort through.

paladin
04-14-2008, 05:17 PM
I'm not far away.....
I may firmly believe that it was eventually better for the children, and perhaps the women.....I think the COP has a good reason to worry about the complete manner in which it was handled.....you do not invade a "church" without a DAMN good reason and can back it up 100% without the slightest hint of impropriety....or political heads will roll.....whatever WE believe as individuals may not be what the followers of that church believes....it's a real bucket of worms....now all someone has to do is make the same accusation to the followers of Oral Roberts University (Church) and say that such things are really happening in the basement after hours and they risk getting raided......sets a bad precedence...

Chris Ostlind
04-14-2008, 05:31 PM
... I think the whole incident from start to finish is just ham handed.
and I believe the prosecution of this case will be so messed up that the guilty will walk and once more the kids will pay the price.
No one can tell me that 400 kids have all been messed with.
Their minds may be full of bull****e but so is the twelve year old watching MTV or Bad Girls club in their room.
I say if its about kids, make it about kids and make the investment to do this right. If we cannot debate the way this is being handled we are doomed to repeat it over and over again. So if you think I should shut up "I am doing it for the children"

It was never intimated that you should, "shut up". What was mentioned, was that you could inform yourself a whole lot better than the thrust of your comments would indicate.

It was also not mentioned that 400 kids had all been molested. I suspect that the actual physical molesting involved only the young girls who had come of age, as it were. There may also be a small group of boys in a similar predicament as reflected by statistics from any other body of people of mixed age and community.

Further, I have no doubt that these kids, all of them, have been tweaked severely in an emotional and psychological fashion, well outside any typical norms of childhood.

But one does not simply go into a heavily guarded and closed society, such as the FLDS, and not take all the minors out of the possible predicament. To select-out just certain predicament biased troubled kids without a proper review of all of their emotional conditions and adult relationships, would be irresponsible.

I'm sure that as time goes by, the kids not effected will be returned to their parents and their community.

And who in the world said we could not debate the issues? Isn't that what is happening right here? Just because a bunch of guys and gals here do not demand your phone number to start a Friends of the Oppressed in Texas Group, does not mean that your positions are not being heard.

When you blast away at the civil rights as your first concern in a case such as this, you say, out loud, that you are more angered by the possible civil rights issues as perfromed by the officials in the area, than you are about a young lady(ies) being sexually jumped on, repeatedly, by a man she was forced to marry whose principal concern is getting busy in the ceremonial deflowering bed... RIGHT THERE IN THE TEMPLE.

Geeez, that just seems so backwards to me.

I'm hoping that there will be a strong emphasis on common sense as the whole thing is sorted, but the folks in this FLDS community also know that when you live by the group, you also get thumped as a group.

Tylerdurden
04-14-2008, 06:30 PM
You would think that at some point all these agency's would have gotten together and said that maybe they could do better and maybe appoint a team of Psychologists or social workers to open an office on site to monitor what was happening during the investigation.
Keep an eye on the welfare of the children and maybe get the kids to open up in their more natural environment.
You know common sense kinda things. Maybe before removing 400 kids tell the men to leave or face that alternative.
This was not at all well though out if we are looking at it "for the children"

I don't see how hard that is to grasp.

glenallen
04-14-2008, 06:51 PM
Fred I have a couple here on this thread and the other original thread imply I support child molesters because of my stance.

Brain Dead is mild compared to what I would call them in personhttp://www.woodenboat.com/forum/images/icons/icon10.gif

..."imply I support child molesters"... Tylerdurden

Show us the specific posts where someone implied that, Mark.
I've been watching, but somehow I missed it.

Concordia...41
04-14-2008, 07:20 PM
Here a bit of sense from the latest MSNBC.com update:



Parker said the 60 or so men remaining on the 1,700-acre ranch have offered to leave the compound if the state would allow the women and children to return to the place with child welfare monitors. But the state Children's Protective Services agency said it had not yet seen the letter containing the offer.



According to the article, Rod Parker is a Salt Lake City lawyer who has represented the FLDS and some of its members in civil and criminal cases.

There's some references in the article to the morass the Texas court finds themselves in and the preliminary hearing today attended by "three to four dozen attorneys" hoping to represent the children.

I know if something similar happened here, our court system - already buckling at the knees and in danger of having basic services cut because of budget reductions - would probably collapse.

In Florida a parent in danger of loosing their parental rights is appointed an attorney. I think we have three for this county. We also have a legal aid office - staffed with two attorneys and two paralegals - which handles (actually I should say Megan tries valiantly to help people with) everything from evictions, to car repair disputes, anything that the poor need help with.

We had a youth center out in Hastings (approx 30 miles), but it's due to be closed. That wouldn't have been good though because it's a secure facility and someone would cry foul because the children haven't been convicted of anything - never mind the fact that it's safe temporary housing...

We have a women's shelter with 10-15 beds, which are always full.

Then with the Texas situation you have the horrible psychological ramifications of what these children have been exposed to (i.e. alleged abuse and definate isolation / brain washing) and the goal of not traumatizing them any more - plus 130+ women fighting for their kids.

If there's any man here with the gronicles to take on one mother, well just step up... and then think what a huge magnified mess this is. :(

Oh, and then there's the freaking media circus. I can't even turn on the TV because I'm afraid I'll accidently hear Nancy Grace's grating voice... :mad:

From what I see, they're doing a pretty fair job of just keeping the train on the tracks.

George Roberts
04-14-2008, 07:33 PM
"the 60 or so men remaining on the 1,700-acre ranch have offered to leave the compound if the state would allow the women and children to return to the place"

That is a great offer. The state could provide a half dozen 24/7 monitors for a lot less than it is costing now.

Tylerdurden
04-14-2008, 07:50 PM
..."imply I support child molesters"... Tylerdurden

Show us the specific posts where someone implied that, Mark.
I've been watching, but somehow I missed it.

ACB wrote:

"So you support polygamy and sex with children?"

Does that meet with your criteria?

Uncle Duke
04-14-2008, 08:04 PM
mark responds, to a request that he validate his claim that people are accusing him of supporting molestation:

ACB wrote:
"So you support polygamy and sex with children?"
Mark asks:
"Does that meet with your criteria?"
Meet criteria? Well, not for me, anyway. Someone asking a question on some thread to which you don't supply links (making it hard for anyone to track-back) doesn't really meet any rational criteria for 'accusations'.
Could you please supply a link?
Oh, and could you please tell everyone how it is that you equate a question with an accusation?
Maybe it is, but without context (which has not been provided) that's pretty much a stretch.......

Oh - and there were several serious question asked of you on this thread which you have not answered. If you don't want to answer them, please say so . Otherwise we will just assume that you are dodging them.
Thanks.

Tylerdurden
04-14-2008, 08:52 PM
Sorry you having a hard time following the thread. It on this thread thats why no link is provided.

Pierce Nichols
04-14-2008, 08:54 PM
Ok where is the supporting evidence in Texas?

The leader of the sect is in jail for exactly the crimes alleged by the anonymous caller.

glenallen
04-14-2008, 09:37 PM
ACB wrote:

"So you support polygamy and sex with children?"

Does that meet with your criteria?

:DYes, thank you!

Cuyahoga Chuck
04-14-2008, 10:25 PM
This case is not as simple as a simple loss of parental rights. There are women who are demanding their children back who may be hard put to prove they are, in fact, a parent. Whatever records the group kept can hardly be accepted as legal documents. When this group cut themselves off from government contact they may have initiated a situation that severely disadvantages them. The 140 or so women who are laying claim to the 400+ children better have acceptible documents that show the children they claims are, truely, theirs. If not it's up to a DNA lab and running more than 400 samples takes time. The authorities could also delay uniting mothers and children to encourage them to point out the fathers and to devulge if they were underage when they were inseminated.
Also, it's not beyond the relm of possibility for the authorities to intensionally drag their feet to get the idea across the polygamists would be advised to go elsewhere with their unusual lifestyle.

Cuyahoga Chuck
04-14-2008, 10:38 PM
The latest blurb about these folks involves the search for the source of the funds that sustain such an extensive enterprise. It seems that there is a Utah company that has received small contracts from The Deprtment of Defence. The guy who runs the company is said to contribute as much as $100,000 a month to the Texas compound.
Hmmm, a conspiracy! Government funds used to support a polygamist cult. That should please Tylerdurdin no end!

brad9798
04-15-2008, 12:19 AM
A 16 year -old with four kids already certainly illustrates the gravity and/or depravity of the issue/problem.

Tylerdurden, or anyone for that matter, can twist to their best intentions ... but CLEARLY crime(s) has been committed ... if by nothing else than simple math, crime has been committed.

Thus, there is more than enough for a warrant, raid, arrests, etc.

Nothing wrong with being arrested ... most will be released without charges being filed. Happens everyday.

May the perps rot in hell.

Sorry, Mark, if that does play into your sensationalist BS inferences in your posts.

In fact, by way of your stances in your posts, you obviously are not overly bothered by the events. Should I/we we be equally sensationalist and assert that you, by our interesting posts/allegations, also support child abuse?

Seems a pretty easy case to make, if one reads into your posts a bit.

:rolleyes:

brad9798
04-15-2008, 12:23 AM
Oh, and spin drift, not sure how things run in Finland, but you ought to be embarassed by some/many of your comments.
You contradict the hell out yourself.

Pathetic, really.

:(

Lew Barrett
04-15-2008, 12:34 AM
Anybody here ever read the Bookseller of Kabul? In a nutshell: "It's a twisted family, but the only one they ever knew."

What a mess. Made by men, for the pleasure of men, to the benefit of men, but it's the only family these people have ever known. One might expect them to be, women and children alike, reticent, confused and bewildered under the circumstances. But the circumstances suck.

When they let long termers out of prison, many do poorly. They've become used to life in the institution. You can get used to anything but hanging. Oh, it's a real problem sure enough, breaking up these families. And if I were reasonably convinced these were loving situations invented for the common well being, I might think; "What the hell? Leave them alone." Is anyone suggesting this are just happy people with a yen for plural marriage, or do we contest the abuse of young girls by any reasonable standard of civilization?

The Bigfella
04-15-2008, 12:42 AM
It sounds like a group of guys who are breeding sex slaves to me.

De-knacker them. Need a hand - I'd do it.

Lew Barrett
04-15-2008, 12:50 AM
It sounds like a group of guys who are breeding sex slaves to me.

De-knacker them. Need a hand - I'd do it.

That's exactly what it sounds like. Every now and then, despite their ineptitude, the authorities get one right. This appears to be one of those times. The truth will out, but from what we know of it so far, it's a horror story. It's remarkable that this has gone two pages as a controversy.

The Bigfella
04-15-2008, 12:57 AM
It's remarkable that this has gone two pages as a controversy.

I couldn't agree more Lew.

Spin_Drift
04-15-2008, 03:31 AM
Oh, and spin drift, not sure how things run in Finland, but you ought to be embarassed by some/many of your comments.
You contradict the hell out yourself.

Pathetic, really.:(

Brad... Yes, I'm embarrassed by my comments/questions.:(


Without concrete evidence of child abuse, I think it must have been a fabricated story so they can raid the compound.
(Another one of these unlawful sieges was the Waco Massacre.)

I don't really know the laws, but I think that without hard evidence the raid was against those people's rights to their home, life, liberty and privacy amongst other things guaranteed in the Constitution.

... For me, this is difficult to comprehend. It's confusing, I don't know what is true, what is lied about them :confused:... What real, un-fabricated, concrete evidence they have against these people?

Are these people really child molesters?

Do they really marry these young children?

Do they have many wives?

Are there women voluntarily married to a man who has other wives? Why? Why can't the men have more than one wife if the wives agree to it? (It's more help with household chores and kids.)

How do these men really treat their wives?

Are they kind and very good to them? (They must be for why would the women otherwise stay with them)

What is their religion like?

Does it refer somewhere in the Bible to having more than one wife?
.....





Originally Posted by Spin_Drift
. . . To my understanding they have no concrete evidence. I am asking questions on my post. If you know something I don't, please let me know.

I think child molestation is a horrible thing and if they indeed molested the children, the children should be removed to a safe environment.


Sorry, I thought you knew about the confidential, inside informant (http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&tab=wn&ned=us&q=FLDS+informant&btnG=Search+News) that had been working with the sheriff for several years. That piece of information hasn't had anywhere near the media play as the phone calls from the alleged 16 year old victim that hasn't come forward after placing the phone calls that kicked this into high gear. Remember this sect has only been in this compound in Texas for 4 or 5 years and has been receiving folks from the other compounds in Utah and Arizona where rape convictions have already been made.

Maybe 57 men (that's the highest # reported, at least 139 women of child bearing age, 416 children).

Thank you Milo, This was an eye opener. I didn't know any of this


Milo, to Spin_Drift:

I think that the question comes from an incomplete understanding of the situation. Gaining a more complete understanding is exactly why she is asking the questions.
I have complete faith that the further understanding will result in new opinions about necessary action. Spin has always stood out, in my opinion, as being a careful and reasoned thinker.

Thank you, this is true. I have a lot more understanding after seeing Milo's link.


Milo, like I say, I'm confused about this whole thing. Not knowing what was fabricated, what was real... To my understanding they have no concrete evidence. I am asking questions on my post. If you know something I don't, please let me know.

I think child molestation is a horrible thing and if they indeed molested the children, the children should be removed to a safe environment.



Question for Spin_Drift:
Is any of this helping with your original (and follow-on) questions?

Yes it is.


Another question to Spin_Drift. Do you have any avenues for up to the minute news other than the web? All the newspapers of record and creditable news services are busting their buns trying to obtain and publish information about this story. It's no big secret.
Also, this story has constitutional implications that will take years to sort out. So don't expect a quick resolution. One very big question is to what extent can someone claim a religious exemption from the laws of the land?

No, here in Finland I haven't seen anything in the news after the first announcement of it. I have looked at the Yahoo news and gotten bits and pieces there as it unfolds...

It's unfathomable and difficult to believe that people would do this kind of horrible things. I do think that child molestation and rape are horrible and inexcusable crimes. The welfare of these children should come first and foremost. The people who molested the children and were part of this should be punished severely.:mad:

My heart goes out to these children. -I'm sorry, I must be pretty dense/dumb or something, as I still don't understand how this can happen.:confused:

Concordia...41
04-15-2008, 05:50 AM
Spin - I don't think any of your questions or comments were out of line or dumb.

First - We all know there is no such thing as a dumb question

Second - Your initial question (the thread title) has given us a thread with a rich and evolving discussion

Third - If I posted a question on some blip I saw on the news regarding a situation in Finland, I shudder to think at what limited and inaccurate information I might be looking at.

Keep up the good questions. :)

BTW - something like this can happen, because despite Mark's conspiracy theories, private property rights are upheld. I don't have time to go back and read the articles, but if memory servies it is something like a 1400 acre compound that has been developed over a couple of decades. These things don't happen over night, and I doubt any of us know what our neighbors do inside their own homes - much less an isolated and secluded community.

Milo Christensen
04-15-2008, 05:56 AM
Hey, no need to beat yourself up. For what it's worth, it's obvious to me that you're in the group of people I call good people.

The FLDS is a cult. A select few reap all the benefits through fear and constant programming along the lines of you're evil to resist - this is the way to heaven for you. Once born into the compound as a member as opposed to a leader, you don't get to leave, you don't get contact with outside viewpoints, the life of the cult is the only life you know. Everything that happens inside the compound is normal to one caught up in the cult.

Cult group programming is difficult for decent people to understand. It's hard for good people to understand how this whole thing works. I wish I didn't know as much about it as I do, but I've had to study deprogramming techniques, which involves a thorough understanding of the programming techniques. Most of my work was with teenagers ensnared by a cult. That kind of programming involving isolation, sleep and protein deprivation, and being surrounded by constant "love" is different from the programming cultists get to do when they can work with someone from birth.

There is no need to apologize for not understanding the power of cults to make people want to continue with behaviours that to the rest of us are abnormal in the extreme.

Uncle Duke
04-15-2008, 05:59 AM
I still don't understand how this can happen.
Take heart - you are not alone. Lots of people don't understand how these people could behave like that. What kind of father would submit his daughter to that life? What kind of man would do that to someone else's daughter?
For myself, there is a lot that I don't understand. But I do generally understand when something has to be stopped - sometimes that's enough.

Gary E
04-15-2008, 08:31 AM
Have no fear, the usa justice system will clear it all up with the help of guess who...
EVERY KID GETS THEIR OWN LAWYER....
Now aint that nice?... this is turning into a
FULL EMPLOYMENT ACT FOR THE LAWYERS

Who you think gona pay for this???

Concordia...41
04-15-2008, 08:41 AM
Actually Gary, most of the attorneys so far are appearing pro bono.

The "church" may have retained someone (guy mentioned above) to represent the church or certain individual's interests, but that's the only paid gun I've seen so far...

There will be far more long-term costs related to counseling and social services for the 500+ women and children involved.

Tylerdurden
04-15-2008, 08:43 AM
Have no fear, the usa justice system will clear it all up with the help of guess who...
EVERY KID GETS THEIR OWN LAWYER....
Now aint that nice?... this is turning into a
FULL EMPLOYMENT ACT FOR THE LAWYERS

Who you think gona pay for this???


I said a Parade, Most of the dolts who think I am off base can chip in towards the cost. I just wish someone thought it through and acted responsibly.
Witch hunts cost more money than deliberate proper investigation.
Lets look at this two years from now and see how well it all goes.
The Kids will not fare well through this but you know its "for the children":confused:

Tylerdurden
04-15-2008, 08:48 AM
This may be interesting reading for those who really care "for the children"

http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/ad/8a/2930820dd7a01f7009d4e010._AA240_.L.jpg

Chris Ostlind
04-15-2008, 09:27 AM
OK, Mark, real simple.

Let's pretend for a moment that you are a prosecutor and there is a "cult" like the FLDS in your jurisdiction. You get credible info that a young lady of 16 in the compound is being forced into sexual activity by a group of the male elders of the cult. This info comes from the young lady, as well as the embedded informant within the group in question.

Of the 400, or so members within the compound, there are, perhaps, another 50 young women who have recently experienced their first period. Now, the weight of the collected males in the group is being brought to bear on them, pressuring a controlled marriage and immediate and constant demand for sex from the selected male. So immediate that the initial fornication takes place within the same Temple where the so-called marriage was just performed.

While you wait until the time is just right and all the chips are in place, (in your well-known and obvious governmental style of procrastination and bureaucratic fumbling) several more young women have been successfully married, mounted and completely inducted into the beds of the controlling male figures within the group.

While you waited.... another squad of wonderful young ladies have been led away from their families and whatever safety they may have experienced in the proximity of their mothers. Now, they are but baby machines and passive orifices for the pleasures of their new owners. Brain washed, flaked and formed as the men wish them to be, while they go about the business of growing numbers of future followers from their earliest possible years of reproductive capabilities.

This happened, While you waited for everything to be just right.

Look into their faces, Mark. Sit them down in the gentlest of interview sessions possible and ask them if the civil rights issue weighs heavier on their hearts than does the relief that somebody... anybody... showed-up on their behalf and ended the lifetime sentence manifest by the existing nightmare.

Now, Mark, place a teenage female member of your own family in that situation and tell me that the time to take action had not passed some time ago, civil rights, or not.

Your call.

Tylerdurden
04-15-2008, 09:49 AM
How hard is it to understand that I am all for going after these Men.
I am all for protecting the children. Every one here is interested in the feel good holy ****e right now proposition. Try looking at it as it goes on down the road. There will be no way to know where the truth lies when all the witnesses are screaming at the same time. Its just stupid.

I think we Haven't learned a thing about how to handle a situation like this and we never will until certain people remove the rabid emotion and look at it clearly. If there is anything this thread shows it how little anyone really cares as they care not to reflect on what was and is being done.

The system is broken and many many children will bear the brunt of it.
There isn't enough prozac to straiten this folly out. Over and out.

Jack Heinlen
04-15-2008, 10:21 AM
By god, I got in! This is Ismael, banned by whiners about my comments, and Scot being too busy to pay real attention. Another issue.

There's a reason we have trials, before an established bar. I have no evidence about what might or might not have been going on in that sect. If the allegations are true I say throw the book at them. Religious freedom is no excuse for statutory rape and enslavement.

If the only evidence a judge issued a warrant on was a phone call that's screwy, and I wouldn't want to be on the prosecution side. If that's the case bad people are going walk, 'cause an anonymous phone call, by itself, is not just cause to issue a warrant, and would be just cause to throw most evidence out of court. Any phone call, by itself, does not constitute just cause. I assume there was much more to the case presented to the judge who issued the warrant or the cops wouldn't have pressed it.

Don't know. That's why we have trials and not tribunals. Let's hear the evidence, in open court.

The trying of such high profile cases in the media is disturbing. I've heard, over and over in the national TV media to the effect, "the polygamous compound(is it possible in English...to have a polygamous compound?") The media mind is already decided, they've tried the case and made judgment. I prefer, still, to wait, until the facts are on the docket.

Gary E
04-15-2008, 10:32 AM
If the only evidence a judge issued a warrant on was a phone call that's screwy,

Jack...

YOU are just NOT paying attn.....WAKE THE HE!! UP

Jack Heinlen
04-15-2008, 10:47 AM
Gary,

What did I miss? I confess not being up to speed about this. What evidence did the judge issue a warrant on?

I'm a believer in the basic justness of our system, so I assume there had to be more than a phone call. We all know eager or corrupt cops jigger things from time to time, but this case doesn't sound like that to me.

The most heinous thing here, assuming the allegations are correct, is the enslavement of these young women. You can call it what you want, but if at fourteen a young woman is pledged in marriage to someone she doesn't love, forced to be his wife, we're talking really ugly, and a felony, and the courts will work it out.

Let the chips fall where they will. I truly hope screwy police work doesn't bollux it.

Gary E
04-15-2008, 10:49 AM
You seem to be so deep in the woods that only the bears bring news to you....

READ... THE ...THREAD....
then if you dont believe that USE GOOGLE

Jack Heinlen
04-15-2008, 11:02 AM
Gary,

I have read the tread. It is all allegation at this point. Some of them may prove true, I don't know.

I will just reiterate the basic principle of civilized justice that you are innocent until proven guilty. The presumption of innocence is sacrosanct. The state has to prove you committed this crime.

If I missed something salient, point it out to me. I confess not reading every word of this thread. What did I miss?

Uncle Duke
04-15-2008, 11:12 AM
Hey, Jack! Welcome back!

I assume there was much more to the case presented to the judge who issued the warrant or the cops wouldn't have pressed it.
That is a fair assumption - the only issue here is that we don't know that the other items presented were. Of course, they are not obligated to tell us at this time, either.

the basic principle of civilized justice that you are innocent until proven guilty.
Just a quibble here - the principle of civilized justice is that you must be treated as if you are innocent. You can be totally, flagrantly, publicly guilty, but the law must pretend that you are innocent until judgment is reached. Subtle difference.

glenallen
04-15-2008, 11:23 AM
Welcome back, Jack!

Cuyahoga Chuck
04-15-2008, 11:45 AM
This may be interesting reading for those who really care "for the children"

http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/ad/8a/2930820dd7a01f7009d4e010._AA240_.L.jpg


Attention! Why are you injecting that into this discussion? There is no evience that this sect engaged in perversion for profit. The best guess we have till now is that what was done was for the purpose of creating a large class of young concubines available for the pleasure of the men who ran the show. And it is just a guess but, based on records that were generated when this goup was investigated at several other locations.
If you have anything to that point or any other point that logically can fit into this thread, let's hear it. Surmises about the evil intent of, or the ignorance of, the officials who decided to raid this compund are just a lot of smoke. It's irrational and the height of hypocracy to suggest that you are qualified to cast the first stone. There is no evidence that any of the officials involved in this case did anything illegal or immoral or irrational up to this point.

Andrew Craig-Bennett
04-15-2008, 11:51 AM
(is it possible in English...to have a "polygamous compound?")

Thank you, Jack.

On the few occasions when I visit our local supermarket I have to walk past a notice that reads:

"This door is alarmed"

It does not look at all scared to me.

Concordia...41
04-15-2008, 12:03 PM
(is it possible in English...to have a "polygamous compound?")

Thank you, Jack.

On the few occasions when I visit our local supermarket I have to walk past a notice that reads:

"This door is alarmed"

It does not look at all scared to me.

:D:D

To answer Jack's question on whether or not a warrant was issued based on a single phone call:


The FLDS community on the 1,700-acre ranch remained largely off the radar screen of Texas officials until a girl, 16, made calls to a domestic abuse hotline on March 29 and 30. She alleged that she had been forced to marry a man three times her age who regularly beat her and that she was being kept at the ranch against her will.

Texas officials said last week that without a complaint or evidence of a crime, they were prohibited from entering the privately owned compound.

The calls and subsequent interviews of people at the site in Texas prompted authorities to remove 416 children -- most of them girls -- from the ranch, the largest child-removal case in the state's history.

Emphasis added.

If the calls were made March 29th and 30th, that's several days before the raid. To me that suggests that an investigation was done to substantiate the claim(s) of abuse and that some sort of plan to deal with the situation was formed.

Full story (and this one gives a little more data than the first sensational pieces):

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24089507/

Jack... you were going to sit out your 30 days... :(

Concordia...41
04-15-2008, 12:19 PM
Here's an interesting article from the Salt Lake Tribune, which I imagine is a Mormon owned publication.

That being said, it is an especially fair piece.

Spin (and others) I think it sheds more light on the cultural differences and what these women and children have been exposed to.

http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_8835442

Taylor Tarvin
04-15-2008, 12:24 PM
If you would like to get background information on the FLDS read "Under the Banner of Heaven" by John Krakauer. Having grown up in Utah and being a Mormon during the early part of my life I believe Krakauers book to be an accurate and balanced look at Mormons and the FLDS.

George Roberts
04-15-2008, 12:31 PM
Concordia...41 ---

Nice link.

Concordia...41
04-15-2008, 12:31 PM
The Salt Lake Tribune has turned out to be a wealth of information.

Here is an article from April 4th - and it is highly informative as to the investigation and removal of the first group of children.

http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_8809472

I've also learned that my comment made above about it being a Mormon-owned paper just showed my ignorance to the differences between the Mormons and the FDLS followers. :o

Rather than edit the post, I'll leave my ignorance showing and thank Spin Drift again for starting the thread that led to this discussion.

Edited to add that rereading the article brought this very pertinent fact - and one that hasn't been mentioned by the conspiracy theorists: It appears Dale Barlow was on probation for conspiracy to commit sexual conduct with a minor.



A search and arrest warrant shows Texas authorities are investigating whether 50-year-old Dale Barlow married and fathered a child with a 16-year-old. Barlow, 50, is a son of former Colorado City, Ariz., mayor Dan Barlow; he also was one of eight Colorado City men accused by Arizona prosecutors in 2005 of marrying underage girls and committing sex crimes. He pleaded no contest in Superior Court in April 2007 to conspiracy to commit sexual conduct with a minor, and a second charge was dropped. The victim was a 16-year-old girl with whom he had a son. He was later sentenced to 45 days in jail and three years on probation.


Conspiracy theory or not, when you are on probation, you loose many fundamental rights. You generally consent to monitoring of your movements, random searches of your premises, random drug tests, etc. Frankly, I'm surprised they even needed a warrant... :mad:

Taylor Tarvin
04-15-2008, 12:47 PM
Margo, The Deseret News is owned or at least managed by the Mormon church. The Salt Lake Tribune is considered the spawn of satan by the faithful locals.

Jack Heinlen
04-15-2008, 12:54 PM
Margo,

If I had felt my banning were just, I would have sat it out. And some pissmire will probably complain and get this moniker banned, even while I say nothing unruly.

A month banned for speaking simple truths about race and fathers still chaps my ass. I have a difficult time holding my tongue, and when I found out I could still log on, I did so. For now.

Andrew,

What are they called, malapropisms? Meaning from the Latin bad(mal) turns of phrase. What is an "apropism?" Word, eh? It comes from the same root as appropriate, which implies this is what you endorse.

I'm reminded of my favorite story of Calvin Coolige. Seated next to a reporter for one of the daily rags at a state dinner of some sort, the reporter said, "I wagered I can make you say more that two words."

Coolidge turned to him and said, "You lose."

Chris Ostlind
04-15-2008, 12:56 PM
Here's an interesting article from the Salt Lake Tribune, which I imagine is a Mormon owned publication.


There are two major newspapers in town, with the SL Trib being one of them. The Trib is not Mormon owned, but it does reflect, somewhat, the Mormon majority in the state witihin its editorial policies, along with those of its ownership. They like to think they are the moderated alternative to the ultra-conservative views of the LDS Church.

The other paper, The Deseret News, is Mormon owned and is unabashedly LDS in its viewpoints. Total LDS policy BS from stem to stern

Interestingly enough, the Editorial staff of the Trib has endorsed the election campaigns of Bush the past two cycles, yet they go out of their way during the non-election years to bash the Bushies whenever they get a solid argument from which to spew. This is about the ownership of the Trib and HIS political viewpoints, as opposed to the staff viewpoints of the Trib editors. The editors have been professionally compromised and until someone takes a stand, or the paper manages to get a new ownership, this BS will stay the same... which is next to useless as a counterpoint to the Church and other conservative policies.

Gutless, they are. (the editors)

Still, they are all toadies for the Church, to some extent, as well as Toadies to the owner and that makes them seriously compromised as members of the gang that is supposed to watch over the governmental BS and offer a substantial counterpoint.

I have no respect for the SL Tribune and its editorial staff. They'll suck the egg at their first opportunity to avoid conflict and in so doing, have compromised themselves to such an extent that they are useless as a counterpoint to the blathering by the LDS Church.

Read the postings from the SL Tribune with care. They play the part, but there's nobody there who will step-up with anything like a sack.

Concordia...41
04-15-2008, 01:05 PM
Thanks for the Desert News lead Chris-

With the exception of the "I want to go home theme" it's hard to believe they're talking about the same situation:

Salt Lake Tribune:


SAN ANGELO, Texas - A Catholic bishop and local doctor who have visited with women and children taken from a polygamous sect's ranch say they are being well cared for but are concerned, confused and want to go home.

The Most Rev. Michael PfeiΒfer, bishop of San Angelo, said he met with FLDS women and children at Fort Concho last week not to "disturb anything but to offer a listening ear.

"They were very reserved, very quiet, very concerned," he said.

The Texas Department of Family and Protective Services removed 416 children from the YFZ Ranch in Eldorado after receiving a report that a 16-year-old girl had been physically and sexually abused. The girl has not yet been identified among the children, who are being kept at historic Fort Concho and the Wells Fargo Pavilion in San Angelo. Officials say 139 mothers voluntarily accompanied the children from the ranch.

Pfeifer said that he explained he was there to listen to and pray with the women and soon a huge group gathered around him.

"So many said they want to go home," he said, and he told them, "We're working on that.

"There is a lot of unrest about what is going to happen, a lot of uncertainty."

Pfeifer led an interfaith service Saturday when about 50 people asked God to comfort the splintered FLDS community and bring wisdom and compassion to those who must now
decide the children's fate.

"People have to make hard decisions about this," he said. A hearing on the children's custody is scheduled for Thursday.

Pfeifer said that the women are aware of the process under way, but are worried about how it will turn out.

Like others, Pfeifer said his hope is that state authorities are able to keep together the family units that are there, Pfeifer said.

"That is my prayer," he said.

Stephen Smith, an internal medicine physician in San Angelo, is part of the medical team at Fort Concho. He is wrestling with the judgments being made about the FLDS, given what he has seen - and considering abuse remains widespread in the world outside the ranch.

"In my opinion, we had to go do something about them so we didn't have to keep looking at our own behavior," he said, pointing out that "We didn't round up all the Catholic schools when we found out about their abuse."

He said most of the women and children are in good health - healthier than most people.

The women he has met at the compound are "quite content with their own culture.

"Even though I don't agree with their lifestyle, I got the impression that in their own little world it made sense," he said.

The children seem happy, laughing and playing like children everywhere.

As he met with one mother and her 8-year-old, the boy said he knew a song that Smith did not know.

The boy began to sing "A Mighty Fortress Is Our God" - and, to his surprise, Smith joined in. "He was really amazed I knew it," he said.

Another woman he met was quite distressed because two daughters had been taken away for interviews.

"She had no idea whether they were going to be returned or not," he said.

While the women say they are being well cared for, they also say they want to go home, Smith said.

"The mothers seem to believe they are going to be able to go back to the ranch," he said, adding that one told him about the 1953 Short Creek raid in Arizona.

One little boy, Smith said, told him, "I just want this to be over and go home."


http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_8908638

Desert News:


SAN ANGELO, Texas — Texas authorities executed a carefully orchestrated plan to force dozens of Fundamentalist LDS Church mothers into leaving their children behind in state care, said women who spoke to reporters at the YFZ Ranch Monday night.
"They said they were going to bring us together so we could see each other, and they lied," said Marie, a 32-year-old mother of three children, ages 9, 7 and 5, who were separated from her earlier that day.

"They read a court order and said, 'Your children are ours.'"

Marie sobbed as she wrapped her arms around a heavy log pole on the porch of a home on the ranch, squeezing it as if it were her missing child.

"I tried so hard to protect my children. They don't know that people hurt each other. They've been so protected and loved," she said as tears streamed down her face.

Women of all ages and children staying at two shelters were bused midafternoon on Monday to the San Angelo Coliseum. The move came after the Deseret News quoted mothers staying at the shelter who said their children were getting sick and wanted to go home. The newspaper also published photos taken from cell phones that showed the cramped and crowded conditions of the shelters.


On Monday, three mothers from the ranch petitioned Gov. Rick Perry to inspect the shelters to see firsthand how families were being treated.
Once the women and children were at the coliseum, state child protective services workers broke the women into two groups, putting mothers with children younger than 5 years old into one group, with the rest of the mothers or those without children there in another group.

"They told the children that the mothers were needed in another room, that we were going to get some information," Marie said. "The children didn't want us to go. They wanted to be with us."

As soon as the mothers were inside the room and the door was closed, police officers and child welfare workers entered, surrounding the women while a court order was read to the group.

According to the women, the court order said, "You are to leave this building. Your children are with us. You have a choice. You can go to a women's violence shelter or go home to the ranch."

"I asked if I could go say goodbye," said Marie of her little boy. "I told him I would come back, but they wouldn't let me."

Marissa Gonzales, a spokeswoman for the Department of Family and Protective Services, said the move was a typical procedure taken by the agency.

"It is not the normal practice to allow parents to accompany the child when an abuse allegation is made," Gonzales said.

In an unprecedented display of public emotion and openness, the women spoke in small groups or individually with reporters, who took pictures and video. FLDS men, both young and old, watched the event unfold, listening as the women described how their children were taken from them.

Phyllis, a grandmother of some of the children, said she was horrified at what was happening. None of the women were allowed to ask questions when the authorities told them they were being separated to receive some "important information."

"I could never have dreamed this," she said, adding she has a daughter with a 2-month-old child now at the coliseum.

Another woman, 21-year-old Vilate, said she had a sick feeling that the authorities would "do something" when they began to load them into the buses.

"Everyone was telling us we'd all be together today. How could somebody do that?" she asked. "Who is going to be holding the little 3-year-old boy I was caring for? They would just tell you one thing and then do another."

Many of the women spoke of meeting a few people over the past 10 days who were kind to those being held by the state.

"But it seemed like as soon as we found someone we liked and who we could talk to, someone who was kind and sympathetic, they reassigned that person," said Vilate, whose dark eyes clouded as she spoke. "We need help so bad."

Esther, 32, said she tried to stay with her children even as the authorities told her if she didn't leave she would be arrested.

"They told the children, 'Come, come play with us,' and the children said, 'No, I want to go with mother,"' said Esther, who has two girls, 6 and 8, now in state custody. "The children are all crying now. I told my daughter earlier, when they were putting us in different rooms, to be brave and to keep praying."

Nancy said authorities have told her 22-year-old daughter that she can't possibly be that old, that she is lying.

"We are American citizens. We are legal, law-abiding and a peaceful people. We have tried to cooperate the best we could, and we were promised we would get our children back," she said. "We have literally been terrorized."

Another mother, Monica, said Texas authorities pursued the children after receiving an unsubstantiated allegation that an underage mother was pregnant and trying to escape the YFZ Ranch. The girl has not been found.

"Now they are trying to get another girl to confess that she is the girl they are looking for. That girl doesn't exist," said Monica, who earlier was barred from seeing her children because she wasn't at the ranch the day the state raided it.

"Anyone with a mother knows how we're feeling right now. What would they do if they were in our place? If we had known this was ahead of us, we couldn't have lived another day."

Texas officials removed 416 children from the YFZ Ranch belonging to the FLDS Church last week as part of a sweeping investigation into allegations of sexual and physical abuse.


http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695270583,00.html

Cuyahoga Chuck
04-15-2008, 01:45 PM
Gary,

I have read the tread. It is all allegation at this point. Some of them may prove true, I don't know.

I will just reiterate the basic principle of civilized justice that you are innocent until proven guilty. The presumption of innocence is sacrosanct. The state has to prove you committed this crime.

If I missed something salient, point it out to me. I confess not reading every word of this thread. What did I miss?

Unfortunately, you were taught wrong.
In Europe (I hope we can agree they are every bit as civilized as we) many countries base their judicial procedures on the Code Napoleon and I don't think "presumption of innocence" is part or their scheme.
Next "presumption of innocence" in our law has a very limited application. The ONLY people who must assume the accused is innocent are those who pass judgement. For everyone else it's the good ol' First Amendment. They can believe the accused is the Devil incarnate or the Angel Gabriel if they wish.
And, finally, our courts do not normally pass a judgement of "innocence". It's "guilty" (i.e. the case has been prooved), or "not guilty" ( the case has not been prooved). It's very possible the guy did it but the government didn't have the legal ammo to proove it. Happens all the time.
One thing that is not in doubt is the government has the legal legs to investigate an allegation and that includes powers to detain, question, and search within certain limits. It is often not a pretty process. The Texas case surely isn't. But, the only limitations are what the law has established. If the Texas case offends your sensibilities you are, indeed, allowed to say that, but, don't imply that the authorites have done anything wrong unless you can put a name to it.

Cuyahoga Chuck
04-16-2008, 06:40 PM
Today the polygamists, who don't ever watch TV themselves, lined up a group of their women folk and put them on TV to show they were just "regular folks". They were well armed with criticisms of how the authorities went about seaching their compound and how the rounded up and carted away all the small children but they weren't prepared to discuss their polygamous lifestyle and whether or not their religion promoted the concept of marrying girls off as soon as they were thru' puberty. From what I saw the interview was an attempt to strum the public heartstring while staying away from anything that might suggest wrongdoing.
The fact that none of the men would consent to appear on camera even when they were leading a press delegation on a tour of their facilities has got to raise some eyebrows. Whoever is calling the shots for the sect is no dummy.
I'll bet the investigation is going to go a lot further than the search for under-age brides. There has to be a good-sized bankroll behind an operation of this size.

Cuyahoga Chuck
04-19-2008, 11:52 PM
As predicted in post #69, Texas is going to administer DNA tests to confirm who is biologically related to whom.

Tylerdurden
04-20-2008, 06:43 AM
So lets see where we stand. It was admitted in court the raid and roundup was triggered by bogus evidence, A state expert testified that the children would be in more danger of harm in the fostercare system and no system of follow up of that care could handle the influx, in fact the state expects the system to collapse.

So the Judge decides to hold all 416 children for their own good?

Here's your sign.

http://www.window.state.tx.us/news/60623statement.html

George Roberts
04-20-2008, 07:37 AM
" So the Judge decides to hold all 416 children for their own good?"

No, the judge is going to return the children to their own parents.

But since there are no reliable records showing whose is whose, DNA testing will be done.

kharee
04-20-2008, 09:07 AM
The real question in why was polygamy outlawed in the first place? Can anyone point out what is wrong with polygamy between consenting adults?And why the Founding Fathers are silent on this issue?

Yeadon
04-20-2008, 09:09 AM
I'm not sure those are the real questions.

jack grebe
04-20-2008, 09:39 AM
I'm gonna weigh in here once and only once then get the hell out.

Was the ranch unjustly invaded......YES
Now, I do not agree or condone this lifestyle
I feel it is a moral bankrupcy of any type of belief.

BUT, you cannot have it both ways.
If the gov. must remove the 10 commandments
from the courthouse because it violates the "wall
of seperation", then the gov. must stay out of
the church because it disagrees with the churches practices.

Maybe you don't agree with it, but that is the way the supreme court
has interped the constitution.

off the soapbox, and running like hell:eek:

Cuyahoga Chuck
04-20-2008, 10:41 AM
I'm gonna weigh in here once and only once then get the hell out.

Was the ranch unjustly invaded......YES
Now, I do not agree or condone this lifestyle
I feel it is a moral bankrupcy of any type of belief.

As one law prof put it, "If you want justice go to church".
If the raid is called into question in court the test will be "was it LEGAL".
Even if the raid was based on bogus evidence it is not necessarily illegal if it can be shown the police believed it was true. Once they were in the compound and saw pregnant girls who looked very young they had "probable cause" to inquire about the age of those girls and if satisfactory answers were not forthcoming they had the power to take steps to get those answers.



BUT, you cannot have it both ways.
If the gov. must remove the 10 commandments
from the courthouse because it violates the "wall
of seperation", then the gov. must stay out of
the church because it disagrees with the churches practices.

You are trying to set up two scrosanct preserves. The Constitution doesn't lay out things that way. The government cannot establish an official religion or prohibit the fee practice of religion. But, what constitutes "religious practice" has been ruled on numerous times. Rastafarians or other ganja weed users can claim it is their "sacrament" but the courts don't buy it. Religions that want to practice activities that are commonly illegal have not been very succussful at getting a religious exemption. No to polygamy, no to animal sacrifices, no to the use of prohibited drugs, no to encouraging others to handle poisonous reptiles, etc.

quote=jack grebe;1820027]Maybe you don't agree with it, but that is the way the supreme court
has interped the constitution.[/quote]

I am not a lawyer and do not play one on TV but, I don't think you would get a passing grade in any introductory constitutional law course.


off the soapbox, and running like hell:eek:

Tylerdurden
04-20-2008, 01:12 PM
" So the Judge decides to hold all 416 children for their own good?"

No, the judge is going to return the children to their own parents.

But since there are no reliable records showing whose is whose, DNA testing will be done.

"Could you point to your parents?"

"Is that your mommy?"

"Is that your daddy?"

Or are we on a fishing expedition?

Tylerdurden
04-20-2008, 01:16 PM
Even if the raid was based on bogus evidence it is not necessarily illegal if it can be shown the police believed it was true. Once they were in the compound and saw pregnant girls who looked very young they had "probable cause" to inquire about the age of those girls and if satisfactory answers were not forthcoming they had the power to take steps to get those answers.

And you learned this where? Try looking it up and reading it again.

Oh by the way the courts are all over the place on religious freedoms.
Some can smoke the weed, some can sacrifice chickens and some can do peyote.
Its not an absolute.

Concordia...41
04-20-2008, 04:05 PM
FWIW -

(Again) No, the polygamous sect's ranch wasn't invaded unjustly. Even if the call for help was later called into question, the authorities believed they were acting on credible information and their interviews and investigation led to the April 3rd incident/ raid / whatever you want to call it.

Now I believe the Texas authorities need to get their ducks in a row and be able to show the need and legal basis and be able to provide foster homes and counseling for these children (and the mothers of those under 5 years) that are still in the state's care.

It's like if you see a toddler about to step off into the street and you grab him because the mother's attention is diverted. It's a split second thing that doesn't give you the right to the child.

More interestingly, Mark, are the Fifth Amendment issues.

I expect that is going to: a) hit the fan next; and b) grind this thing to a screeching halt. :(

Cuyahoga Chuck
04-20-2008, 04:49 PM
And you learned this where? Try looking it up and reading it again.

Oh by the way the courts are all over the place on religious freedoms.
Some can smoke the weed, some can sacrifice chickens and some can do peyote.
Its not an absolute.

Show me or get off the pot.
I'll lay out my credentials when you do.

htom
04-20-2008, 05:06 PM
There were a pile of legal problems, for all concerned -- children, mothers, fathers, law enforcement, and Texas CPS & foster care -- before the "fake call", which only added to them.

I really don't see how law enforcement had a choice (there are always choices, of course, but leaving pre-teens to be raped is not an acceptable one, in my opinion.)

Tylerdurden
04-20-2008, 05:14 PM
.

I really don't see how law enforcement had a choice (there are always choices, of course, but leaving pre-teens to be raped is not an acceptable one, in my opinion.)

Not one shred of evidence of that. They suspect 13, no proof yet.

Pierce Nichols
04-20-2008, 06:51 PM
Turns out that in Texas, every person is a mandated reporter of child sexual abuse. Failure to report is a class B misdemeanor, punishable by $2000 and six months in jail. That means that if there was even one child bride on the YFZ Ranch (which it is certain there was), every adult there is a criminal.

Cuyahoga Chuck
04-20-2008, 07:53 PM
Are you really that stupid? The leader of the sect is in jail for exactly that, and furthermore, he preached in favor of it. It is a certainty that child rape was a standard practice at the compound. And that's enough, under Texas law, to jail every single adult on the compound for at least six months. That should give the forensic accountants enough time to build an air-tight case against the corporate body of the cult for their various financial shenanigans over the years.

You are wasting your time. No amount of accurate information will deter Tylerdurden from his appointed rounds.

Chris Coose
04-20-2008, 08:00 PM
The state is the only outfit to shut down these child rapists.

We know more about the cult's practice than the neighbors to the Jew camps in Germany.

Polygany is illegal and the by product by these twisted fundamentalists is child rape, the outcast of young men, so's the old dogs can have their ways, weird ownership of property and on and on.

"Under the Banner of Heaven" is a good primer.

Shut them the fu*k down anyway they can. To apologize or defend these rapists is immoral in knowing what we know about them.

You don't really think this thing got started by a couple of phone calls, do you?

Cuyahoga Chuck
04-21-2008, 09:55 PM
Whooopie! the YFZers put some of their men out on the PR trail today. There weren't many of them and most of their statements were rather bland and cautiously delivered. The one I liked best was "we like big families". There was an opening there the reporter let slip by. Well, maybe next time!
On the DNA front it is reported that scientists may have a problem identifiying parentage because the group is somewhat inbred.
And, there are numerous names that are carried by a dozen or more children. Also, some children have no surnames.
I suspect the authorities are going to get a few gray hairs handling this case.
Stay tuned.

High C
04-21-2008, 10:31 PM
...Even if the raid was based on bogus evidence it is not necessarily illegal if it can be shown the police believed it was true....

Oopsie! :eek: You shoulda run that line past the DNC for approval first. :D

Spin_Drift
04-22-2008, 03:00 AM
Texas begins DNA tests on polygamist sect Children

Mon Apr 21, 3:15 PM ET

State authorities on Monday began running DNA tests on over 400 children removed from a polygamist compound in west Texas to determine if some were born to underage mothers.

Such evidence could be key in an investigation of possible abuse at the secretive compound linked to a break-away Mormon sect run by followers of jailed polygamist Warren Jeffs.

"It is a cheek swab and it is very non-invasive," said Patrick Crimmins of the Texas Department of Children and Family Services of the tests.

A judge on Friday ordered the tests to determine parentage and relationships within the community. Meanwhile, the children must remain in the department's custody.

Crimmins said the DNA testing will continue for several days. For the tests to be useful, the adults would also have to give DNA samples. However they can legally refuse to do so which could complicate matters further and delay legal decisions about the fate of the children.

The largest child welfare case in Texas history began earlier this month when authorities removed the children from a remote Texas ranch in response to a complaint of abuse there.

It was the latest legal confrontation between the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints which, regards plural marriage as ordained by God, and civil authorities.

In November, the sect's spiritual leader Jeffs was sentenced in a Utah court to 10 years to life in prison as an accomplice to rape for forcing a 14-year-old girl to marry her 19-year-old first cousin.

Polygamy is outlawed in the United States. Male followers of such sects typically marry one woman officially and take the others as "spiritual wives."

The mainstream Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, as the Mormon faith is officially called, renounced polygamy over a century ago and is at pains to distance itself from the few thousand renegades who still practice plural marriage.

Tylerdurden
04-22-2008, 03:16 AM
Its not about the children, its about the round up.

Many here cannot see the forest for the trees. Thats what blind faith will get ya.

Concordia...41
04-22-2008, 03:32 AM
Yeah Spin - the problem is just about to be this. The Fifth Amendment gives a person the right not to incriminate themselves.

On one hand the FLDS folks say that they will do anything necessary to facilitate the return of the children, but if you've got a 15-year old girl with a two-year old child, by giving his DNA to establish parentage and be reunited with his child, the father of the child is giving evidence that could (and should in my opinion) be used to convict him of having sex with an underage girl.

On the other hand, you've got the child-welfare workers who are getting a bit boxed into a corner of their own making, where [without the DNA tests] they can't tell which children belong to which parents and they're not just going to hand these children over and back into this situation.

While I do not believe the polygamous sect's ranch was invaded unjustly, this is becoming a mess of epic proportions. :(

Tylerdurden
04-22-2008, 03:39 AM
While I do not believe the polygamous sect's ranch was invaded unjustly, this is becoming a mess of epic proportions. :(

I have no issues with an investigation, Just the removal.

Cooler heads should prevail under these circumstances and they did not. Just read through the fanaticism on this thread and one would see why. Though we are all on the same side here any one who urges caution is painted broadly as supporting the molesters.

Myself I would have put social workers on site 24/7 to get an idea of what was going on and give the children the thought that someone is looking out for them and become comfortable with outsiders. The kids have to be freaked out right now so I don't see how that would get us any closer to the truth.

seanz
04-22-2008, 03:46 AM
Its not about the children, its about the round up.


Is there somewhere you can go to get your moral compass checked?

Tylerdurden
04-22-2008, 03:50 AM
Is there somewhere you can go to get your moral compass checked?

Proves my point thanks.
"Just read through the fanaticism on this thread and one would see why. Though we are all on the same side here any one who urges caution is painted broadly as supporting the molesters"

Read the link, Question is where are they safer?

http://www.window.state.tx.us/news/60623statement.html

Tylerdurden
04-22-2008, 05:24 AM
Not only are we helping the children but we get such interesting reading.

Now I am sure these are all bad people.

Polygamist dress a study in faith vs. fashion

http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/04/22/polygamy.fashion.ap/index.html

Chris Coose
04-22-2008, 05:33 AM
The kids have to be freaked out right now .....

Better than getting tossed of the ranch when you are in late teens so some fossil can rape and knock up your little sister.

Tylerdurden
04-22-2008, 05:39 AM
Better than getting tossed of the ranch when you are in late teens so some fossil can rape and knock up your little sister.

Dude, did you read this...

http://www.window.state.tx.us/news/60623statement.html

Somehow I think if we had the church agree to have chaperone's
(Social workers) on site , we could have prevented the old geezers from what is claimed. Now they can all go to foster homes with very limited supervision so others can rape the children who are more vulnerable because they are fish out of water.
Where is the common sense here?

Tylerdurden
04-22-2008, 05:43 AM
"Child welfare is one of the hardest and most complicated issues. Child Protective Services (CPS) caseloads are so high that caseworkers struggle to meet the needs of children in the system, and we aren’t finding all the cases of child abuse and neglect – some of them never come to light, and some we only find out about when children die.


In 2002, Texas ranked 47th among the states on spending for the public child welfare system – spending just $135.19 pre child, compared to a national average of $303.95.
In November 2005, the average caseload of a CPS investigative worker was 43 cases, and the conservatorship worker average was 47 cases. The Council on Accreditation for Children and Family Services suggests up to 18 cases per worker.
The Texas Health and Human Services Commission reports that the pressure of a high caseload for CPS workers often results in closing cases when children are still at risk.
High caseloads prevent timely investigations. The average investigation in 2004 took 82 days. "http://www.texanscareforchildren.org/innerpage.php?pageid=102


This was before 416 emergency cases were dumped on the system.

Tylerdurden
04-22-2008, 05:47 AM
"Based on Fiscal 2004 data provided by the Health and Human Services Commission, about 100 children received treatment for poisoning from medications; 63 foster children received medical treatment for rape that occurred while in the foster care system; and 142 children gave birth while in the state foster care system.
"As alarming as these cases are, we can only imagine how much worse the Fiscal 2005 data is because Gov. Perry's Health and Human Services Commission has refused to provide the data needed to complete my investigation.
"When I called on Gov. Perry in October 2004 to create a Crisis Management Team, I said the crisis was minute-by-minute and child-by-child.
"In Fiscal 2004, four-year old twin boys living in the same foster home received medical treatment in the hospital for rape.
"A five-year old boy in the same foster home received medical treatment in the hospital for rape two days later.
"A 15-year old girl who was not pregnant when she entered our state's foster care system in May 2002 gave birth in February 2004.




http://www.window.state.tx.us/news/60623statement.html

Chris Coose
04-22-2008, 05:48 AM
we could have prevented the old geezers from what is claimed.

Read "Under the Banner of Heaven"
The geezers have been tapping the child brides since Joseph Smith took on a few for himself.

Tylerdurden
04-22-2008, 05:51 AM
Read "Under the Banner of Heaven"
The geezers have been tapping the child brides since Joseph Smith took on a few for himself.

So? Having direct supervision would not stop it?

Maybe your right because of what I posted above seems to support that. Maybe we should just put them all on a bus and keep driving until they are all 18.

Chris Coose
04-22-2008, 05:54 AM
So they go from the fire to the frying pan.
This new group thrown into the child rodeo ought to out the Texas system enough so they might change the GD'ed thing for the better.

Chris Coose
04-22-2008, 05:59 AM
These polygamist crazies deserve all the attention they get for this dramatic, muti-generational premeditated lawlessness and child rape.

Tylerdurden
04-22-2008, 06:05 AM
These polygamist crazies deserve all the attention they get for this dramatic, muti-generational premeditated lawlessness and child rape.

No argument dude..... Just been saying we need to be careful here and think things out . this emotional feelgood crap ends up worse for those we are saving 9 times out of ten.

The jerks who throw out the crap like "you support the molesters" or infer it should do time right next to the pervs because they only care about the 10 seconds of gratification they feel.
This is a long and serious path and needs to be looked at closely with caution and understanding on all sides.
There are no easy answers here only hard ones.

Chris Coose
04-22-2008, 06:25 AM
It will be darkest and coldest before the dawn.
These SOB's fled the US for Canada and Mexico to set up their compounds when polgamy became illegal in the US.
They return over time and continue the practices that came from a snak oil salesman who found gold tablets in the ground in NY that says that Jesus came to America and the like.
They need to be broke up first. Naturally, because of their crazed zeal, they will never go away but the state cannot continue to ignore the camps and the extended middle finger.
Sure, be careful but take them down. These compounds house the some of the craziest religious fundamentalists on the face of the planet.

Tylerdurden
04-22-2008, 07:21 AM
Agreed, All I am saying is not to be a zealot when it comes to the state. Most of the time the state does as much harm.
Texas more than most.

Keep a critical eye on both sides and the children will fare better all around.

Pierce Nichols
04-22-2008, 09:06 AM
I have no issues with an investigation, Just the removal.<

Without the removal, they'd all in be in Mexico now, out of range of US law enforcement. Besides, as I said before, the presence of a single child bride on the compound makes all of the adults criminals.

Tylerdurden
04-22-2008, 09:12 AM
Without the removal, they'd all in be in Mexico now, out of range of US law enforcement. Besides, as I said before, the presence of a single child bride on the compound makes all of the adults criminals.

Where is the evidence of that? Did they find 416 bus tickets?

Don't need to make crap up.

Pierce Nichols
04-22-2008, 09:48 AM
Where is the evidence of that? Did they find 416 bus tickets?

Don't need to make crap up.

The FLDS have had a compound in Mexico since the late 40s, which they have repeatedly used to hide 'persons of interest' from US authorities until the heat dies down. You might want to learn a thing or two about the FLDS and its history before you go making a damn fool of yourself. They have another one in Canada, same purpose.

Tylerdurden
04-22-2008, 10:02 AM
The FLDS have had a compound in Mexico since the late 40s, which they have repeatedly used to hide 'persons of interest' from US authorities until the heat dies down. You might want to learn a thing or two about the FLDS and its history before you go making a damn fool of yourself. They have another one in Canada, same purpose.

Where are the bus tickets? Plans? anything to indicate that that was their intentions?
Our government has bases in 146 countries worldwide, when are they planning to escape?

I saw a group of people who opened their gates and allowed authority's unfettered access. One guy got in the way and from what I understand he wasn't charged formally.
Can you show me where the tunnels to Mexico were dug in the compound?

Care to make any other wild arsed speculation Nancy?

http://www.jossip.com/gossip/200607-nancygrace.jpg

Spin_Drift
04-22-2008, 10:19 AM
The sect has access to private aircraft and plenty of their own vehicles. Why would they use the bus?



They've done it before, you dumb ignorant f--k. That's why they built the Mexico compound. See Under the Banner of Heaven, among other sources, for the history of this.

Boys, boys, -please watch your language. I would not want this thread pulled by Scot...:eek::)

Tylerdurden
04-22-2008, 10:20 AM
Boys, boys, -please watch your language. I would not want this thread pulled by Scot...:eek::)

I am sorry, did I curse?

Spin_Drift
04-22-2008, 10:35 AM
I am sorry, did I curse?

No Dear you didn't, Pierce did...:):(

Didn't want it to escalate...:(

You know, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure...:p:)

Cuyahoga Chuck
04-22-2008, 11:00 AM
Oopsie! :eek: You shoulda run that line past the DNC for approval first. :D

Don't have the vaguest idea what you are jammering about. Hope you do.

Tylerdurden
04-22-2008, 11:05 AM
Don't have the vaguest idea what you are jammering about. Hope you do.

I feel the same way after reading your posts. Have they put out the river yet?

Chris Coose
04-22-2008, 11:50 AM
. I guess we better invade.

We did. Knowing the slime, the lawlessness, the rape, the control from conception to grave, the defenses used over a century to tell the rest of the population this is god's work, they went in.

You'd like to keep it in today, wach it fly, ignore the identification bird books, hear the quacking , witness the migration and not call it a duck because you think the government is unjust.

They rape child brides.

Tylerdurden
04-22-2008, 11:55 AM
They rape child brides.

416?

Tylerdurden
04-22-2008, 02:01 PM
The FLDS Website

http://www.captivefldschildren.org/

Chris Coose
04-22-2008, 02:09 PM
416?

Thousands maybe, perhaps hudreds of thousands.

And all those little boys can look forward to potentially becoming child rapists.

And you seek justice?
Have you read Under the Banner yet?

Tylerdurden
04-22-2008, 02:14 PM
Why don't we just do the Waco route then and have one liquid mass of children in a root cellar?
I have never been part of a lynch mob, how is it Chris?

Have you read the Texas Comptrollers statement yet?

Chris Coose
04-22-2008, 02:18 PM
Waco was not replicated in this case.
The motives for the invasion were not he same.
This compound represents a hundred years of lawlesness.
Their cultre is an abomination in this day and age.
We know more about their lawlesness than the neighbors to Bukenwald did, and they knew plenty.

Tylerdurden
04-22-2008, 03:27 PM
Waco was not replicated in this case.
The motives for the invasion were not he same.
This compound represents a hundred years of lawlesness.
Their cultre is an abomination in this day and age.
We know more about their lawlesness than the neighbors to Bukenwald did, and they knew plenty.

Well its great you have the whole story all figured out then as it would save a boat load of money if we can convict the guilty, free the innocent and teach the children right from wrong in one fell sloop.

Myself I will wait and see what comes of it because I expect it will not be much considering its been a hundred years of lawlessness and this is what we have to show for it so far.

Chris, you dropped your torch back over there.:rolleyes:

Cuyahoga Chuck
04-22-2008, 03:55 PM
The FLDS Website

http://www.captivefldschildren.org/

Would anything they have to say surprise me?
From what I've seen so far they have their end of the PR game firmly in hand.
Too bad this is an investigation pursuant to law and what the general public believes or doesn't believe concerning the case has no bearing.
Your move.

Chris Coose
04-22-2008, 03:57 PM
While I pick up my torch, beyond "Under the Banner"and while you wait for real quaint justice (which is an oxymoron for you) there are a couple of other books you may like:
Natural History of the Waterfowl by Frank S. Todd
The Demon Haunted World by Carl Sagan
The Book of Abraham by Joseph Smith

by the time you read through these it's likely the child rape would have stopped.
Not!
It takes the cops to raise a village.
Goddamned glad they interveaned on this one at least. Long overdue.

Tylerdurden
04-22-2008, 05:49 PM
Goddamned glad they interveaned on this one at least. Long overdue.


I agree, just think it could have been handled a lot better.
Just picture a 10 year old LDS girl being dropped into a foster home in one of the greater Houston housing projects.
How safe will she be in that environment. Kid hasn't been trained to hit the floor on the sound of the first shot. Thats what I am thinking.
Maybe we could have gotten the men to leave the compound instead.
They may fare a bit better than the kids in some of the neighborhoods they are sure to be sent into.

Cuyahoga Chuck
04-22-2008, 07:17 PM
I agree, just think it could have been handled a lot better.
Just picture a 10 year old LDS girl being dropped into a foster home in one of the greater Houston housing projects.
How safe will she be in that environment. Kid hasn't been trained to hit the floor on the sound of the first shot. Thats what I am thinking.
Maybe we could have gotten the men to leave the compound instead.
They may fare a bit better than the kids in some of the neighborhoods they are sure to be sent into.

We have received your message.
You don't think the authorities handled it very well.
You don't think the authorities handled it very well.
You don't think the authorities handled it very well.
You don't think the authorities handled it very well.
You don't think the authorities handled it very well.
You don't think the authorities handled it very well.
You don't think the authorities handled it very well.
Yada
Yada
Yada
Now, wasn't that easy?

kharee
04-23-2008, 02:04 PM
It looks like the call from the alleged "victim" was a phony. A suspect is now in custody. I lean toward seeing this as a witch-hunt and fishing expedition by the West Texas Baptists Police Authority.

Let us not forget the Duke Lacrosse team which was lynched in the news media. They were innocent. The D.A. was guilty of prosecuetorial misconduct and disbarred.

I think we should compare the adult behavior and civic track record of the FLDS members to the larger community. They stand head and shoulders above the rabble who fill our cities and jails. Look at the crack whores walking the streets all over Texas. Look at the thousands of pregnant minors sitting in Texas schools as we speak. Not learning a damn thing. Look at the dropout rate. Look at the thugs and punks walking around Austin, in sight of the capital with their pants sagging and their asses out. Not a peep from the piss-ant Texas governor or the Texas Legislature. My grandmother always said "God don't like ugly". This is ugly use of state power to persecute a sect for its religious beliefs. The anti-democratic Statist always claim they are "doing it for the children"! Bull****!

Tylerdurden
04-23-2008, 02:13 PM
Its so funny how the "Its for the Children" crowd can gloss over this and fight to the death for the state to subject over 400 kids to this:

"In November 2004, I launched an investigation into possible Medicaid prescription drug fraud and abuse in our state's foster care system.
"I am here today to release disturbing information found during my investigation about the deaths, poisonings, rapes and pregnancies of children in our state's foster care system.
"I found, from information provided by the Texas Department of Family and Protective Services, in Fiscal 2003, 30 foster children died in our state's care; in Fiscal 2004, 38 foster children died; and in Fiscal 2005, 48 foster children died.
"Data shows that while the number of foster children in our state's care increased 24 percent from 26,133 in Fiscal 2003 to 32,474 in Fiscal 2005, the number of deaths increased 60 percent.
"If you compare the number of deaths of children in our state's population to the number of deaths in our state's foster care system, a child is four times more likely to die in our state's foster care system.
"Based on Fiscal 2004 data provided by the Health and Human Services Commission, about 100 children received treatment for poisoning from medications; 63 foster children received medical treatment for rape that occurred while in the foster care system; and 142 children gave birth while in the state foster care system.
"As alarming as these cases are, we can only imagine how much worse the Fiscal 2005 data is because Gov. Perry's Health and Human Services Commission has refused to provide the data needed to complete my investigation."

Comptroller Strayhorn Statement
On Foster Care Abuse
Friday, June 23, 2006

http://www.window.state.tx.us/news/60623statement.html


Of course I have posted the link here several times and not one of the Child safety nazis has an answer for it.
As long as the state has the kids their conciseness is absolved apparently.

Cuyahoga Chuck
04-23-2008, 08:07 PM
You must have really done some excavating to dig that stuff up. Don't forget how the Texas justice system screwed Lynell Jeter (sic) and the 36th (Texas) Division failed to capture Monte Cassino. And Judge Roy Bean and that kind stuff.

Chris Coose
04-23-2008, 08:20 PM
This is ugly use of state power to persecute a sect for its religious beliefs.

They are to be prosecuted for twisted religious activity.
They can have all the beliefs they want they just can't marry more than one woman and they can't screw girls.
They've had a century of free riding. Their time has come. It's god's work.

kharee
04-23-2008, 11:06 PM
This case is highly charged emotionally for some people. Allegations of sexual abuse always bring out the worst in otherwise normal people. Witness all the hatred and vitriol dripping from the lips of many on this forum. They want to lynch, draw and quarter then burn the FLDS members. Treat them like Colored folks! In real life some of these same turds wouldn't bust a grape! But to move to higher ground let me pose another question.

What is wrong with polygamy between consenting adults? Seems to me if its alright for two men to marry or co-habit there can is nothing wrong with a man and two women marrying.

Now for the kicker, I quote Encyclopedia Britannia. Polygamy is "the quickest way for the working class to acquire wealth"!

It seems to me that our ruling class saw the Mormons becoming "big in the land" and did not want poor disenfranchised Whites and recently freed Black ex-slaves to do the same.

The ruling class cared nothing for African Americans and very, very little for poor Europeans Americans and to this day this is true. They are just stuck with both groups because of the need for a standing military. Thats my story and I'm sticking to it!

Tylerdurden
04-23-2008, 11:44 PM
You must have really done some excavating to dig that stuff up. Don't forget how the Texas justice system screwed Lynell Jeter (sic) and the 36th (Texas) Division failed to capture Monte Cassino. And Judge Roy Bean and that kind stuff.

Good comeback chuckie, I see facts bother you.

No digging though, If one is really concerned "for the children" one would know Fl and Texas are about the two worst states in the land for foster care.
The reason no one thought of telling the men to leave the compound was the fact the state receives federal dollars for every child removed and placed in the system and we all know its about the money.

I know its hard for you and the rest of the blind torch bearers to read the truth of the matter but try not to get to excited and lynch anyone to put those demons to rest.

"If you compare the number of deaths of children in our state's population to the number of deaths in our state's foster care system, a child is four times more likely to die in our state's foster care system.

"For the children"

Pierce Nichols
04-23-2008, 11:48 PM
This case is highly charged emotionally for some people. Allegations of sexual abuse always bring out the worst in otherwise normal people.

The allegations have been proven, kiddo. The leader of this pack is in prison on Utah for it already, and is facing eight additional counts in Arizona. Plus, a pregnant fifteen year old in a place with no men young enough to qualify for a Romeo & Juliet exemption is living proof that a sex crime has occurred.


What is wrong with polygamy between consenting adults? Seems to me if its alright for two men to marry or co-habit there can is nothing wrong with a man and two women marrying.

Completely irrelevant. The problems with the FLDS are things like child rape, child abandonment, large-scale welfare fraud, and manifold other sorts of criminality.

Tylerdurden
04-23-2008, 11:54 PM
The allegations have been proven, kiddo. The leader of this pack is in prison on Utah for it already, and is facing eight additional counts in Arizona. Plus, a pregnant fifteen year old in a place with no men young enough to qualify for a Romeo & Juliet exemption is living proof that a sex crime has occurred.



Cite please? (no men young enough to qualify)

Also could we all stick to recent facts and facts related to this case.
Not the past thousand years.
I know Nancy Grace thinks everything is admissible but the courts see it otherwise for a reason.

Chris Coose
04-24-2008, 05:43 AM
They want to lynch, draw and quarter then burn the FLDS members.

You seem to be the one a little high strung on this one.
The truth of the matter is adequate.

For the children? Not from where I'm coming from. It is the entire outlaw package. As a result these manipulated children may have a moment to break the chain of the insanity of the cult.

The question of proper foster care is another distinct matter.

In the bigger picture of control, dominance and minding your own business Mark, I'd think that the removal of a person's free will, as the followers of Joseph Smith will do to their children might be a larger issue for you than the state removal, (ignoring they screw children).

Reference: The Book of Abraham by Joseph Smith, Under the Banner of Heaven By John Krakauer

Tylerdurden
04-24-2008, 05:46 AM
Foster care could be wrenching for Texas sect children



SAN ANGELO,
Texas (AP) — Many of the children have seen little or no television. They have been essentially home-schooled all their lives. Most were raised on garden-grown vegetables and twice-daily prayers with family. They frolic in long dresses and buttoned-up shirts from another century. They are unfailingly polite.

The 437 children taken from the polygamist compound in West Texas are being scattered to group homes and boys' and girls' ranches across the state, plunged into a culture radically different from the community where they and their families shunned the outside world as a hostile, contaminating influence on their godly way of life.

The state Children's Protective Services agency said it chose foster homes where the youngsters can be kept apart from other children for now.

"We recognize it's critical that these children not be exposed to mainstream culture too quickly or other things that would hinder their success," agency spokeswoman Shari Tulliam said. "We just want to protect them from abuse and neglect. We're not trying to change them."

The children were swept up in a raid earlier this month on the Yearning for Zion Ranch run by the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, a renegade Mormon splinter group that believes in marrying off underage girls to older men. State child-welfare authorities said there was evidence of physical and sexual abuse at the ranch.

The youngsters are being moved out of the crowded San Angelo Coliseum and will be placed in 16 temporary facilities around Texas — some as far away as Houston, 500 miles off — until individual custody hearings can be held.

Those hearings could result in a number of possibilities: Some children could be placed in permanent foster care; some parents who have left the sect may win custody; some youngsters may be allowed to return to the ranch in Eldorado; and some may turn 18 before the case is complete and will be allowed to choose their own fates.

Children raised on the FLDS compound must wear pioneer-style dress and keep their hair pinned up in braids, reflecting their standards of modesty. For the same reason, they have little knowledge of pop culture. They must pray twice a day. They tend vegetable gardens and raise dairy cows, and must eat fresh food. And they are exceedingly polite, always saying "please" and "thank you."

In contrast, many other children in foster care have a certain worldly swagger, and are there because they have used drugs or committed other crimes.

Experts and lawyers say foster care will change the sect children.

"These children who have lived in a very insular culture and are suddenly thrust into mainstream culture. There's going to be problems," said Susan Hays, who represents a toddler in the custody case. "They are a throwback to the 19th century in how they dress and how they behave."

Ken Driggs, an Atlanta lawyer has long studied and written about the FLDS, said that if kept away from their parents' culture long enough, the children may begin to emulate those around them.

Tulliam said the temporary foster care facilities have been briefed on the children's needs. "We're not going to have them in tank tops and shorts," she said.

Authorities will try to obtain the youngsters' traditional clothing from their parents, and also arrange for visits from some of the adults, state attorney Gary Banks said.

In addition, CPS has sent instructions to the foster homes to feed the youngsters fresh fruits and vegetables, chicken, rice and other foods that may have been grown on the 1,700-acre ranch.

"They don't eat a lot of processed food and we're not going to encourage that," Tulliam said, but noted that if the children want to eat processed or junk food, no one is going to stop them.

Those who cling to the old traditions may pose another problem for the state — they might run away. Driggs said polygamists' children have fled foster homes before because "they want to go home, and they want to go to people and circumstances they're used to."

The children have been educated in a schoolhouse, using a home-school curriculum, on the compound, and may actually be ahead of public-school students their ages, lawyers said.

Hays and Tulliam said the children will continue to be home-schooled by the temporary foster-care providers instead of being thrown into big schools, where they could be bullied because of their differences.

While their diets, dress and prayers can be accommodated with a little planning, other experts said their emotional needs may be trickier to deal with.

Dr. Bruce Perry, a child psychiatrist who testified for the children last week, said FLDS children may be easily taken advantage of by outsiders because of the strict control church leaders have had over their daily lives.

People who have left the sect "felt emotionally incapable of decision-making," he said.

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5iIdMpRHjN4hpNKBhfYyAsR4DDo4QD907QKKG0

Tylerdurden
04-24-2008, 05:49 AM
You seem to be the one a little high strung on this one.
The truth of the matter is adequate.

For the children? Not from where I'm coming from. It is the entire outlaw package. As a result these manipulated children may have a moment to break the chain of the insanity of the cult.

The question of proper foster care is another distinct matter.

In the bigger picture of control, dominance and minding your own business Mark, I'd think that the removal of a person's free will, as the followers of Joseph Smith will do to their children might be a larger issue for you than the state removal, (ignoring they screw children).

Reference: The Book of Abraham by Joseph Smith, Under the Banner of Heaven By John Krakauer

Well then when are we raiding the Amish communities?
Orthodox Jews? etc.

Chris Coose
04-24-2008, 05:54 AM
What is wrong with polygamy between consenting adults? Seems to me if its alright for two men to marry or co-habit there can is nothing wrong with a man and two women marrying.



In America it is against the law.
My opinion? Go for it. But it ain't for me. One at a time is plenty.
As far as this cult goes? Take a look at the female hair do's. They all got them the same. What does that tell you about this culture?
http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2008/US/04/23/polygamist.retreat.ap/t1home.polygamist.kids.ap.jpg
These guys have taken polygamy to ugly.

If you can't see it, then you won't.
I'm glad others see it for the sickness in it.

Chris Coose
04-24-2008, 05:57 AM
Well then when are we raiding the Amish communities?
Orthodox Jews? etc.

If you cannot answer that question by seeking further information on the differences it is no wonder you must dissregard some fundamental information on the nature of this cult.

Tylerdurden
04-24-2008, 06:02 AM
In America it is against the law.
My opinion? Go for it. But it ain't for me. One at a time is plenty.
As far as this cult goes? Take a look at the female hair do's. They all got them the same. What does that tell you about this culture?
http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2008/US/04/23/polygamist.retreat.ap/t1home.polygamist.kids.ap.jpg
These guys have taken polygamy to ugly.

If you can't see it, then you won't.
I'm glad others see it for the sickness in it.



"As far as this cult goes? Take a look at the female hair do's. They all got them the same. What does that tell you about this culture?"

http://www.galen-frysinger.ws/us/quiltauction027.jpg
http://kaypoe.the-webplace.com/wis/auction/Amish-women1-kp.jpg

Chris Coose
04-24-2008, 06:08 AM
So Mark, what do these photos tell you about their culture?

BTW, the ones in the top image get to screw the cult fossils

Tylerdurden
04-24-2008, 06:11 AM
So Mark, what do these photos tell you about their culture?

BTW, the ones in the top image get to screw the cult fossils

Over 400 children screwed the cult fossils?

Chris Coose
04-24-2008, 06:15 AM
That is the question to be sorted out.
I'm glad it isn't you doing it.

Now how about answering some of my questions.

Tylerdurden
04-24-2008, 06:26 AM
That is the question to be sorted out.
I'm glad it isn't you doing it.

Now how about answering some of my questions.

Why, my idea of separating the men and interviewing the children and women over a period of time in their natural environment is bad?
Gaining the trust of and caring for the children's needs is bad?
Making sure young children are not separated and brought into foster homes in gang culture neighborhoods is bad?

Don't know how warehousing kids and subjecting them to bright light interviews and strange foreign culture shock will work unless one has an agenda to break them down.
If so called as it is, Its not about the children its about destroying a culture foreign from ours.
We tried that with Native's. Maybe we should just send those special blankets instead.

Chris Coose
04-24-2008, 06:34 AM
What do you think of a culture that intentionally removes a child's free will for their lives?
Have you read under the Banner of Heaven?

The "idea" you have does not work in their compound.

Chris Coose
04-24-2008, 06:36 AM
If so called as it is, Its not about the children its about destroying a culture foreign from ours.


Agreed. Blow it the fu*k up.

Chris Coose
04-24-2008, 06:38 AM
It must rail the bejesus out of you that child porn computers are seized.

Rick-Mi
04-24-2008, 07:12 AM
I'm shocked that some people have become such brainwashed sheep that they readily bite on media propaganda. Fortunately, there are still people in America who respect liberty along with the first and fourth amendments and aren't so quick to rush to judgement and grab a torch as soon as big brother sends in the Gestapo based on an anonymous phone call. Check this out:

http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/story?id=4678143

Chris Coose
04-24-2008, 07:18 AM
You think this is about one phone call?

Beautiful.

You probably also think gas prices are only about what we pay at the pump and not related to inflation.

Chris Coose
04-24-2008, 07:23 AM
From Rick-Mi's source

It was unclear if the arrest was related to the phone call from a woman who claimed to be a 16-year-old girl, a phone call that sparked what has become one of the largest child custody cases in U.S. history.

Then he calls us media propoganda sheep!

Beautiful.

Oh right ABC news that's as good as the Bible.
Rick, have you read Under the Banner of Heaven? I know, more sheeple propaganda.

Rick-Mi
04-24-2008, 08:06 AM
From Rick-Mi's source


Then he calls us media propoganda sheep!

Beautiful.

Oh right ABC news that's as good as the Bible.
Rick, have you read Under the Banner of Heaven? I know, more sheeple propaganda.


When discussing sheep without mentioning names your reaction does seem to indicate very clearly the shoe fits.

The only reason I used ABC News is because that is the type of source useful idiots like yourself rely on to form your opinions. BTW, this isn't the first go around with false police reports from this crazy wench in Colorado. And yes, the frantic call from this sexually abused 16 year old WAS THE reason for the military Gestapo style raid and subsequent media smear. My how things change as the true facts appear.

That is why the original poster and some other contributors made very good points asking if the Ninja style raid was conducted justly and asked themselves key questions while searching through the facts. But, the mass media puts out a propaganda campaign against this "cult" and the sheep can't run fast enough for their torch. A sad commentary indeed regarding an easily swayed public who have become dumbed down shepple that bow to big brother so quickly and take their constitutional rights so lightly.

Chris Coose
04-24-2008, 08:20 AM
And yes, the frantic call from this sexually abused 16 year old WAS THE reason for the military Gestapo style raid and subsequent media smear.

Oh really, and where did you receive this quality information?
ABC?


Have you read Under the Banner of Heaven?
Na, didn't think so.

Useful idiots, such as myself, would collect as much relaible information to make opinion. Child rape based on gold tablets found in the dirt by a snake oil salesman are just a small part of the truths of this community you so dearly protect.

You hang with ABC and this idiot will continue to watch with delight that this thing has been invaded. I'll bet you liked the motives for the Iraq invasion

Chris Coose
04-24-2008, 08:33 AM
The only reason I used ABC News is because that is the type of source useful idiots like yourself rely on to form your opinions.


My 10 year old spins better than that.

Saltiguy
04-24-2008, 08:51 AM
I watched the trial of Warren Jeffs (sect leader) on Court TV. Watched the whole thing. Jeffs had been a fugitive on the 10 most wanted list, was captured and charged only with "being an accomplice to rape" - a strange charge, if I ever heard one. The testimony came from a young wife (19 yoa?) who was shy and nervous about having sex with her husband, a young man of 21(?). The young man was patient and waited, hoping for a change. They slept together every night, but no sex. Finally, the frustrated young husband went to Jeffs for advice and was told to assert himself on the young wife. The young husband followed through and gently but firmly had intercourse with his virgin wife. There was no violence according to testimony from both - simply an assertion of what the young husband felt was his marital perogative.
On this evidence, Jeffs was convicted of the role of accomplice to rape and sentenced to life behind bars!
To me, the whole trial reeked with injustice. Maybe Jeffs should be strung up, and maybe the compound needed to be raided, but things should be done RIGHT - not vigilante/Waco style.

Rick-Mi
04-24-2008, 08:56 AM
My question to you Chris is whatever happend in America that people like yourself would be conditioned to bite hook line and sinker for media propaganda supporting military style raids on fellow citizens without giving a single thought to constitutional rights and proper legal proceedure?

Rick-Mi
04-24-2008, 09:06 AM
I watched the trial of Warren Jeffs (sect leader) on Court TV. Watched the whole thing. Jeffs had been a fugitive on the 10 most wanted list, was captured and charged only with "being an accomplice to rape" - a strange charge, if I ever heard one. The testimony came from a young wife (19 yoa?) who was shy and nervous about having sex with her husband, a young man of 21(?). The young man was patient and waited, hoping for a change. They slept together every night, but no sex. Finally, the frustrated young husband went to Jeffs for advice and was told to assert himself on the young wife. The young husband followed through and gently but firmly had intercourse with his virgin wife. There was no violence according to testimony from both - simply an assertion of what the young husband felt was his marital perogative.
On this evidence, Jeffs was convicted of the role of accomplice to rape and sentenced to life behind bars!
To me, the whole trial reeked with injustice. Maybe Jeffs should be strung up, and maybe the compound needed to be raided, but things should be done RIGHT - not vigilante/Waco style.


Excellent point Saltiguy. Unfortunately, many people in America put blinders on regarding constitutional rights in support of Waco style raids simply because they disagree with the religion or philosophy of fellow citizens. Throw out the word "cult" and many are quick to grab the rope and clammor for a public lynching.

Chris Coose
04-24-2008, 09:37 AM
.....without giving a single thought to constitutional rights and proper legal proceedure?

You learned that where?
Have you read Under the Banner of Heaven?

We gave that Sadham Hussein his due, now didn't we? He was a very bad guy.

Cuyahoga Chuck
04-24-2008, 10:08 AM
Good comeback chuckie, I see facts bother you.

No digging though, If one is really concerned "for the children" one would know Fl and Texas are about the two worst states in the land for foster care.
The reason no one thought of telling the men to leave the compound was the fact the state receives federal dollars for every child removed and placed in the system and we all know its about the money.

I know its hard for you and the rest of the blind torch bearers to read the truth of the matter but try not to get to excited and lynch anyone to put those demons to rest.

"If you compare the number of deaths of children in our state's population to the number of deaths in our state's foster care system, a child is four times more likely to die in our state's foster care system.

"For the children"

What don't you understand about suspician of rape involving teen age girls? If the authorities have probable cause to suspect such crimes they cannot walk away from it. The fact that this involves a large and recalcitrant religious group may make this investigation a mess but the state authorities are locked into investigasting it no matter what. It is a matter of LAW and no amount of carping about periferal issues like caring for the children, DNA testing, police brutality or whatever else can be drummed up can derail the central issue. Where children raped? When? How many? Who was involved? Did others suborn it? etc., etc.
If the folks under investigation want to make legal claims against the state they have every right to start legal actions of their own. Even a casual perusal of the YFZ ranch operation shows it has tens of millions in assets, must have been extremely well funded from it's beginnings and has an army of legal representatives.
This is only my personal opinion but, no one from YFZ Ranch who has been interviewed by the media has done more than look mornful and spout a party line. If my kid was being taken away by the law I would be camping outside the police station in order to be the first to spill my guts to get my kid back. The YFZ people look a lot more laid back than I would expect. I would also say that the YFZ folks seem to be using their captive kids as a hole card in their attempt to beat back any investigation of their religious practices. The fact that one or two of the 140 + women that lost children were not reduced to blubbering anguish amazes me.

Cuyahoga Chuck
04-24-2008, 10:29 AM
When discussing sheep without mentioning names your reaction does seem to indicate very clearly the shoe fits.

The only reason I used ABC News is because that is the type of source useful idiots like yourself rely on to form your opinions. BTW, this isn't the first go around with false police reports from this crazy wench in Colorado. And yes, the frantic call from this sexually abused 16 year old WAS THE reason for the military Gestapo style raid and subsequent media smear. My how things change as the true facts appear.

That is why the original poster and some other contributors made very good points asking if the Ninja style raid was conducted justly and asked themselves key questions while searching through the facts. But, the mass media puts out a propaganda campaign against this "cult" and the sheep can't run fast enough for their torch. A sad commentary indeed regarding an easily swayed public who have become dumbed down shepple that bow to big brother so quickly and take their constitutional rights so lightly.

Even if the authorites were acting on bogus information anything they view once on the scene can give them "probable cause" to initiate investigations not related to the original complaint.
In this case they saw pregnant girls who looked too young to be legally married. The saw other girls who may have been of marriagable age who had too many children to have given birth to all of them after the age of consent. And as has been said numerous times before, the authorities cannot walk away once they suspect that felonies have been committed.
This case is and will be very messy for along time. But, once it was started there was no possible way to make it stop on a dime. if rights were violated those effected will have ample opportuntity to take the state into court and get redress.
The basis of this case as it stands involves rather basic legal precepts.
Anyone who wants to carp about it can. But the state of Texas looks to be on fairly solid ground to this point.

Gary E
04-24-2008, 10:47 AM
But,,,BUT...
WHY did the halfassed lawmen let the CRIMINAL MEN stay there???
They removed and are relocating the KIDS... in several different places hundreds of miles from their home..
THE CHILDREN DID NOTHING WRONG...

kharee
04-24-2008, 11:09 AM
All you Texas Baptists should know that prior convictions, known as "stale evidence", is not admissible in court as proof of guilt for new charges. Lynch law is not rule of law. Sounds like some of you "good old boys "just got lynching in your blood. To hell with rule of law seems to be the Texas outlook.

Tylerdurden
04-24-2008, 11:14 AM
But,,,BUT...
WHY did the halfassed lawmen let the CRIMINAL MEN stay there???
They removed and are relocating the KIDS... in several different places hundreds of miles from their home..
THE CHILDREN DID NOTHING WRONG...

Thanks to all of you who see the light in this sewer.

I think if you read through you will find this has more to do with religion and the destruction of this one to most of the posters.
Its not about the kids at all, its just a simple excuse to use and allow this conduct by the government.
Just look at the venom spewed towards some of the religious posters here.

"If you compare the number of deaths of children in our state's population to the number of deaths in our state's foster care system, a child is four times more likely to die in our state's foster care system.

"For the children"

Chris Coose
04-24-2008, 12:53 PM
All you Texas Baptists should know that prior convictions, known as "stale evidence", is not admissible in court as proof of guilt for new charges. Lynch law is not rule of law. Sounds like some of you "good old boys "just got lynching in your blood. To hell with rule of law seems to be the Texas outlook.


I love this lynch thing while you sound like people ownership, control and domination, as what runs in the comound, makes for happy happy.
That ownership includes child fuc*ing.

Cuyahoga Chuck
04-24-2008, 04:01 PM
But,,,BUT...
WHY did the halfassed lawmen let the CRIMINAL MEN stay there???
They removed and are relocating the KIDS... in several different places hundreds of miles from their home..
THE CHILDREN DID NOTHING WRONG...

There is a suspicion of ongoing rape at this place. The authorities could hardly leave hundreds of children in the care of people who might be party to rape. A place where rape is endemic is just as dangerous to children as a crack house in the eyes of the law.
Also, splitting up the various groups involved makes it harder for the suspects to gain control of who says what. Basic police procedure.
THE CHILDREN ARE NOT SUSPECTED OF WRONGDOING. THE CHILDREN HAVE NOT BEEN CONSIGNED TO JAIL. THE CHILDREN HAVE BEEN REMOVED FROM THEIR FAMILIES BECAUSE IT IS SUSPECTED THAT THE GROUP OR SOME SECTOR OF IT HAS AN ONGOING POLICY OF RAPE,POLYGAMY, CHILD MARRIAGE, AND CHILD ABANDONMENT.

Cuyahoga Chuck
04-24-2008, 04:11 PM
All you Texas Baptists should know that prior convictions, known as "stale evidence", is not admissible in court as proof of guilt for new charges. Lynch law is not rule of law. Sounds like some of you "good old boys "just got lynching in your blood. To hell with rule of law seems to be the Texas outlook.

Even if evidence is inadmissable it would be poor police procedure to ignore it. This sect has along track record in other states. If the Texas authorities are on their toes they already have copies of all of what was collected in Utah and Arizona.
There is a suspician that Warren Jeffs moved some of his operations to Texas under the belief that the legal age of marriage was still 14 years.
Your grasp of the law needs strengtheneing. But,if you have examples of illegal or improper actions by the state of Texas in this case all you have to do is put aname to them.
The floor is yours.

Cuyahoga Chuck
04-24-2008, 04:17 PM
Thanks to all of you who see the light in this sewer.

I think if you read through you will find this has more to do with religion and the destruction of this one to most of the posters.
Its not about the kids at all, its just a simple excuse to use and allow this conduct by the government.
Just look at the venom spewed towards some of the religious posters here.

"If you compare the number of deaths of children in our state's population to the number of deaths in our state's foster care system, a child is four times more likely to die in our state's foster care system.

"For the children"


This case is not about "seeing the light". It is about enforcement of Texas law. I invite you as I have the others of putting a name to any illegal or improper acts commited by the Texas authorities.
No web addresses or digressions or straw men or rants or emotional breakdowns. If this case has gone so horribly wrong you should be able to put a name to the bad stuff in a few terse sentences.
Now is your chance to shine.

Gary E
04-24-2008, 04:34 PM
There is a suspicion of ongoing rape at this place. The authorities could hardly leave hundreds of children in the care of people who might be party to rape. A place where rape is endemic is just as dangerous to children as a crack house in the eyes of the law.
Also, splitting up the various groups involved makes it harder for the suspects to gain control of who says what. Basic police procedure.
THE CHILDREN ARE NOT SUSPECTED OF WRONGDOING. THE CHILDREN HAVE NOT BEEN CONSIGNED TO JAIL. THE CHILDREN HAVE BEEN REMOVED FROM THEIR FAMILIES BECAUSE IT IS SUSPECTED THAT THE GROUP OR SOME SECTOR OF IT HAS AN ONGOING POLICY OF RAPE,POLYGAMY, CHILD MARRIAGE, AND CHILD ABANDONMENT.

Chuck....
The intire problem of future possible rape can be solved by REMOVING THE MEN....

Let the kids stay with their MOTHERS....in their ONLY HOME they know with their BROTHERS and SISTERS...not separated by hundreds of miles and split up from the others they know....

How would you like to be hauled out of your house when you were 2... or 10 or whatever age?... that's ok with you???

gawd this is so farked up.... and Texas aint helping matters...

Tylerdurden
04-24-2008, 06:25 PM
Now is your chance to shine.

Yours too. Quick call the FBI and turn a friend or relative for something. They didn't even have to have done it and really you will feel even better if they are innocent.

Cuyahoga Chuck
04-24-2008, 07:33 PM
Chuck....
The intire problem of future possible rape can be solved by REMOVING THE MEN....

Let the kids stay with their MOTHERS....in their ONLY HOME they know with their BROTHERS and SISTERS...not separated by hundreds of miles and split up from the others they know....

How would you like to be hauled out of your house when you were 2... or 10 or whatever age?... that's ok with you???

gawd this is so farked up.... and Texas aint helping matters...

Gary, the authorities have to have a legal jusification to remove anyone. At the moment they do not have probable cause to do anything to the men. It has to do with the number of men present. They must be charged as individuals and without solid evidence an attorney would spring them in hours.
I am not an attorney but I don't think there is a felony called "thinking about committing a felony". Until one appears I don't think your idea is a starter.
The authorities dealing with child services do have probable cause to remove the children. The children were living among people suspected of engaging in an ongoing string of felonies. Rape, suborning rape, concealment of rape, failure to report child abuse, and on and on. It's all speculative at the moment but the law governing child endangerment certainly says it can be done.
It hasn't been mentioned yet but, these folks may have violated the RICO stautes, i.e. organizing for the purpose of engaging in an ongoing criminal activity. The RICO staute is a federal law and the feds have not shown any interst in this case yet.

Cuyahoga Chuck
04-24-2008, 07:36 PM
Yours too. Quick call the FBI and turn a friend or relative for something. They didn't even have to have done it and really you will feel even better if they are innocent.

Ooooops! You missed your chance again!
Have you tried isometrics to improve your reaction time?

Cuyahoga Chuck
04-24-2008, 07:49 PM
The sprits of the Mighty Cuyahoga have a news update!
The number of YFZ children in fostercare has risen from 416 to over 460. Many of the young women stated their ages as 18 or 19. Because of that they were left at the compound with the other adult women.
All the girls below a certain age were removed with the other children. It appears that some of these girls are, in fact, mothers who got to stay with their child(ren). Now many more women are denying their previous claims of adulthood. It is thought that they are doing so to be reunited with their children.
It seems separating the various components of the group is have a telling effect on it's solidarity.
The fact that large numbers kids from this religious group would lie about the most basic things makes me wonder what religious standard they are trying to achieve.

Chris Coose
04-24-2008, 09:50 PM
Nice going Chuck.
I hope these guys have picked up a copy of Under the Banner of Heaven and might be coming to terms with the twisted society they look to protect, but I doubt they would subject themselves to the entire story.
They wouldn't be able to jump up and down so high, hollering for justice.

Tylerdurden
04-25-2008, 03:19 AM
Rule of law protects every one equally no matter the crime.

Justice is blind and rightly so or maybe one day we might decide counselors are the next bogeyman.

http://framingthequestions.berkeley.edu/vol3/nuremburg.jpg

Chris Coose
04-25-2008, 06:18 AM
Counselors are bogeymen to most. But you won't find me fuc*ing children.

Rick-Mi
04-25-2008, 06:58 AM
I hope these guys have picked up a copy of Under the Banner of Heaven and might be coming to terms with the twisted society they look to protect, but I doubt they would subject themselves to the entire story. They wouldn't be able to jump up and down so high, hollering for justice.

Hollering for justice and the rule of law, what a terrible thing.

Somebody writes a book unfavorable to a certain group and all of a sudden it's time to throw out the constitution along with the first and fourth amendments. You don't happen to like them, especially because they are tied to anything even remotely religious so evidence and probable cause become a moot point. Welcome to libworld....

Tylerdurden
04-25-2008, 07:02 AM
Counselors are bogeymen to most. But you won't find me fuc*ing children.

Good for you, have they found anyone in Texas yet besides the 160 reportedly raped in Foster care in 2006?

We need to raid all the foster homes in Texas and Haul those kids to the Astrodome according to your logic.

Could 35k kids fit in the Astrodome? Maybe the Zeppelin hangers in Ca.?

Milo Christensen
04-25-2008, 07:05 AM
So, Mark, how many of your own kids did you abuse and have taken away?

Chris Coose
04-25-2008, 08:53 AM
You don't happen to like them, especially because they are tied to anything even remotely religious so evidence and probable cause become a moot point. ....
Pure, delusional , unadulterated Bull****.
They screw children.

Cuyahoga Chuck
04-25-2008, 09:23 AM
Hollering for justice and the rule of law, what a terrible thing.

Somebody writes a book unfavorable to a certain group and all of a sudden it's time to throw out the constitution along with the first and fourth amendments. You don't happen to like them, especially because they are tied to anything even remotely religious so evidence and probable cause become a moot point. Welcome to libworld....

It's rather easy to drop words like "First and Fourth Amendments". It' will take some brainpower to explain how they apply in this case. Are you up to that?
I'm particularly interested how you would apply the First Amandment. Do these people have a guaranteed right to have intercourse with under age girls because thay have a religious belief that says it's OK, necessary or commanded by God? Do their religious beliefs exempt them from any other civil laws like the ban on polygamy?
I'll leave the Fourth Amendament for later. One conundrum at a time.

Spin_Drift
04-25-2008, 11:05 AM
Latest developments on news today...:(

More teenage mothers emerge in Texas polygamy probe
By Jessica Rinaldi and Ed StoddardThu Apr 24, 9:13 PM ET

Texas authorities said on Thursday they identified 25 more mothers below age 18 among those removed from a polygamist compound, raising to about 460 the number of minors at the heart of a huge abuse probe.

An apparent phone tip earlier this month led to a raid on the ranch in a remote part of west Texas and the removal of the children. The compound is linked to a breakaway Mormon sect and is run by followers of jailed polygamist leader Warren Jeffs.

Texas welfare and law enforcement officials say they have uncovered evidence of widespread child abuse on the grounds, with adolescent girls being forced into unions with much older men.

The 25 additional teenage mothers who have been sorted from the adults and who initially claimed to be adults may provide prosecutors with more ammunition if it was found for example that some had become pregnant when they were in their early teens.

Officials would not say how old the mothers were beyond the fact all are believed to be under 18.

Authorities this week have been moving the children into foster homes as well as taking DNA samples in a bid to find out who is related to whom. About 260 remain in temporary shelter in a heavily guarded rodeo stadium in the west Texas town of San Angelo.

Over 60 women left the stadium on Thursday as the wrenching process of separating the women and children continued.
"THESE CHILDREN MUST BE PROTECTED"

Darrell Azar, a spokesman for the Department of Child Protective Services, told a news briefing outside the stadium on Thursday that pulling the families apart as the probe widens was a "difficult thing.... But these children must be protected."

On Thursday, one of the women who left the stadium held a sign outside the window of a bus that read: "SOS. MOTHERS
SEPARATED. HELP."

The compound is about 45 miles south of San Angelo in an isolated part of Texas. The investigation is the largest child welfare case in the history of the state and shrouded in confusion.

Local media reports have suggested the calls that sparked the raid may have been a hoax by a woman in Colorado Springs, Colorado, who has a history of such acts.

Azar said it did not matter if it was a hoax or not because evidence of abuse was being unearthed.

The Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints regards plural marriage as ordained by God and the sect's followers have tended to keep to themselves in isolated corners of Arizona, Utah and elsewhere.

The mainstream Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, as the Mormon faith is officially called, renounced polygamy over a century ago and is at pains to distance itself from its few thousand kin who still practice plural marriage.

Polygamy is outlawed in the United States but the men of such sects typically have one legal wife and take others as "spiritual wives."

Tylerdurden
04-25-2008, 02:42 PM
So, Mark, how many of your own kids did you abuse and have taken away?
sig.


Lurking quietly below the surface, I rise to the troll bait.
The stalker in Gray pounces, missing the Mark once again.
I smile and resume lurking until the next troll.

Who's the troll?

Well lets see the my oldest daughter Graduated magna cum laude from the University last year and is about to be married while working on her Phd.

My second oldest daughter is a 3.8 at university in her 3rd year

And my son is on his way to becoming a certified machinist.

All well balanced "good" kids except the boy is a bit rambunctious.
He is willing to fight at the drop of a hat like the old man so teaching him patience is still and ongoing process.

For the Psyco you would like to paint me as it doesn't reflect on my children Teach. Would you like to compare notes on yours?http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/images/icons/icon12.gif

Tylerdurden
04-25-2008, 02:44 PM
Pure, delusional , unadulterated Bull****.
They screw children.

So does the Texas foster care system. Its fully documented.

When should we bring the busses?

Spin_Drift
04-26-2008, 02:41 AM
What will become of this? What will happen to these families and children?

On today's news... Sweep of polygamists' kids raises legal questions

The state of Texas made a damning accusation when it rounded up 462 children at a polygamous sect's ranch: The adults are forcing teenage girls into marriage and sex, creating a culture so poisonous that none should be allowed to keep their children.

But the broad sweep — from nursing infants to teenagers — is raising constitutional questions, even in a state where authorities have wide latitude for taking a family's children.

The move has the appearance of "a class-action child removal," said Jessica Dixon, director of the child advocacy center at Southern Methodist University's law school in Dallas.

"I've never heard of anything like that," she said.

Rod Parker, a spokesman for the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, contends that the state has essentially said, "If you're a member of this religious group, then you're not allowed to have children."

Attorneys for the families and civil-liberties groups also are crying foul. They say the state should not have taken children away from all church members living at the Yearning For Zion Ranch in Eldorado.

Church members said that not all of them practice polygamy, and some form traditional nuclear families. One sect member whose teenage son is now in foster care testified that she is a divorced single mother.

"Of course, we condemn child abuse and we don't stand up for the perpetration of that," said Lisa Graybill, legal director of the American Civil Liberties Union of Texas. But "what the state has done has offended a pretty wide swath of the American people with what appears to be an overreaching action to sweep up all these children."

State and local officials had been eyeing the sect suspiciously since it bought the ranch in 2003 and moved hundreds of its members in. They raided the property April 3, with heavy weapons and SWAT vehicles, after a female claiming to be a 16-year-old girl at the ranch called a family violence shelter and said her 49-year-old husband beat and raped her. That girl has not yet been identified.
State officials searched for a week for evidence of sexual abuse and rounded up all the children into mass shelters. As of Friday, the children had all been bused to foster group homes hundreds of miles away; only nursing infants still have their mothers with them.

Texas law has a "very low burden for removal of children from a parent's home, at least temporarily," Dixon said.

But state authorities are supposed to keep the children in their homes unless "a person of ordinary prudence and caution" believes there's a continuing and immediate danger to their safety.

"There was a systematic process going on to groom these young girls to become brides," said CPS spokesman Darrell Azar, noting that the state had no way to protect from possible future abuse if they stayed on the ranch.

"Removal is always the last option," he said. "In this case, there was no other choice."

CPS officials have conceded there is no evidence the youngest children were abused, and about 130 of the children are under 5. Teenage boys were not physically or sexually abused either, according to evidence presented in a custody hearing earlier last week, but more than two dozen teenage boys are also in state custody, now staying at a boys' ranch that might typically house troubled or abandoned teens.

Two teenage girls are pregnant, and although identities and ages have been difficult to nail down, CPS officials say no more than 30 minor girls in state custody have children. It's not clear how many other adolescent girls may be among the children shipped to foster facilities.

The sect believes polygamy brings glorification in heaven and its leader Warren Jeffs is revered as a prophet. Jeffs was convicted last year in Utah of forcing a 14-year-old girl into marriage with an older cousin.

Constitutional experts say U.S. courts have consistently held that a parent's beliefs alone are not grounds for removal.

"The general view of the legal system is until there is an imminent risk of harm or actual harm, you can't do that," said UCLA law professor Eugene Volokh.

Lawyers for the FLDS parents and civil rights groups complain that a chaotic mass custody hearing last week prevented state District Judge Barbara Walther from hearing any individual stories that might have led her to allow some parents to keep their children.

One FLDS member who did testify said she and her husband and their three children form a traditional family and live in a separate house from other sect members. An FLDS expert who testified at the hearing and a former member of the sect say only about half the marriages in the sect are polygamous.

Walther agreed to keep all the children in state custody after 21 hours of testimony in a hearing involving hundreds of lawyers.

"That's the hard thing about this. They want to paint everyone with the same brush," said Shelly Greco, an attorney who represents several children in the case.

The judge has said each mother will get an individual hearing by June 5.

If there was an underage mother in every home, the state might be able to make its case for removal of all the children, Dixon said, but it's likely that once individual hearings are held, some of the children may be headed back to their parents.

Another legal issue may emerge if investigators discover the call from the 16-year-old girl was a hoax.

Authorities are investigating whether the calls came from a woman in Colorado who has a history of making fake calls, but CPS officials and legal experts say the outcome of that investigation will likely have little bearing on the custody case, given that authorities went to the ranch believing the calls were legitimate and then found possible evidence of abuse.

Cuyahoga Chuck
04-26-2008, 08:06 PM
What will become of this? What will happen to these families and children?

On today's news... Sweep of polygamists' kids raises legal questions

The state of Texas made a damning accusation when it rounded up 462 children at a polygamous sect's ranch: The adults are forcing teenage girls into marriage and sex, creating a culture so poisonous that none should be allowed to keep their children.

But the broad sweep — from nursing infants to teenagers — is raising constitutional questions, even in a state where authorities have wide latitude for taking a family's children.

The move has the appearance of "a class-action child removal," said Jessica Dixon, director of the child advocacy center at Southern Methodist University's law school in Dallas.

"I've never heard of anything like that," she said.

Rod Parker, a spokesman for the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, contends that the state has essentially said, "If you're a member of this religious group, then you're not allowed to have children."

Attorneys for the families and civil-liberties groups also are crying foul. They say the state should not have taken children away from all church members living at the Yearning For Zion Ranch in Eldorado.

Church members said that not all of them practice polygamy, and some form traditional nuclear families. One sect member whose teenage son is now in foster care testified that she is a divorced single mother.

"Of course, we condemn child abuse and we don't stand up for the perpetration of that," said Lisa Graybill, legal director of the American Civil Liberties Union of Texas. But "what the state has done has offended a pretty wide swath of the American people with what appears to be an overreaching action to sweep up all these children."

State and local officials had been eyeing the sect suspiciously since it bought the ranch in 2003 and moved hundreds of its members in. They raided the property April 3, with heavy weapons and SWAT vehicles, after a female claiming to be a 16-year-old girl at the ranch called a family violence shelter and said her 49-year-old husband beat and raped her. That girl has not yet been identified.
State officials searched for a week for evidence of sexual abuse and rounded up all the children into mass shelters. As of Friday, the children had all been bused to foster group homes hundreds of miles away; only nursing infants still have their mothers with them.

Texas law has a "very low burden for removal of children from a parent's home, at least temporarily," Dixon said.

But state authorities are supposed to keep the children in their homes unless "a person of ordinary prudence and caution" believes there's a continuing and immediate danger to their safety.

"There was a systematic process going on to groom these young girls to become brides," said CPS spokesman Darrell Azar, noting that the state had no way to protect from possible future abuse if they stayed on the ranch.

"Removal is always the last option," he said. "In this case, there was no other choice."

CPS officials have conceded there is no evidence the youngest children were abused, and about 130 of the children are under 5. Teenage boys were not physically or sexually abused either, according to evidence presented in a custody hearing earlier last week, but more than two dozen teenage boys are also in state custody, now staying at a boys' ranch that might typically house troubled or abandoned teens.

Two teenage girls are pregnant, and although identities and ages have been difficult to nail down, CPS officials say no more than 30 minor girls in state custody have children. It's not clear how many other adolescent girls may be among the children shipped to foster facilities.

The sect believes polygamy brings glorification in heaven and its leader Warren Jeffs is revered as a prophet. Jeffs was convicted last year in Utah of forcing a 14-year-old girl into marriage with an older cousin.

Constitutional experts say U.S. courts have consistently held that a parent's beliefs alone are not grounds for removal.

"The general view of the legal system is until there is an imminent risk of harm or actual harm, you can't do that," said UCLA law professor Eugene Volokh.

Lawyers for the FLDS parents and civil rights groups complain that a chaotic mass custody hearing last week prevented state District Judge Barbara Walther from hearing any individual stories that might have led her to allow some parents to keep their children.

One FLDS member who did testify said she and her husband and their three children form a traditional family and live in a separate house from other sect members. An FLDS expert who testified at the hearing and a former member of the sect say only about half the marriages in the sect are polygamous.

Walther agreed to keep all the children in state custody after 21 hours of testimony in a hearing involving hundreds of lawyers.

"That's the hard thing about this. They want to paint everyone with the same brush," said Shelly Greco, an attorney who represents several children in the case.

The judge has said each mother will get an individual hearing by June 5.

If there was an underage mother in every home, the state might be able to make its case for removal of all the children, Dixon said, but it's likely that once individual hearings are held, some of the children may be headed back to their parents.

Another legal issue may emerge if investigators discover the call from the 16-year-old girl was a hoax.

Authorities are investigating whether the calls came from a woman in Colorado who has a history of making fake calls, but CPS officials and legal experts say the outcome of that investigation will likely have little bearing on the custody case, given that authorities went to the ranch believing the calls were legitimate and then found possible evidence of abuse.

Don't know who's behind yours squib but, from what I get from first water-sources like the New York Times a lot of what is posted above is incorrect, or immaterial, or the opinion of someone who has a material interest in the case.
The original number of children removed was 416. Now there are many more children in state custody because some girls recanted there claims they were 18 or older. Among the original group of children were girls who were mothers. They got to stay with their babies. The implication of the recantation is other mothers are coming clean so that can be reunited with their children. If these mothers were all engaged in a large scale deception the state can use that to bolster it's claims.
Then the warrant. If a warrant is executed and it is based on false testimony the warrant may be in jeaprody but, not anything beyond the warrant that authorites see. Once they are on the scene they still have investigative powers based on the doctrine of "probable cause". In this case they saw young girls who appeared to be mothers and too young to be married. If they saw numerous young women in this light they could logically conclude that there may be large scale sexual impropriety occuring and could take said children into custody. If there was large scale illegal sexual activity afoot the entire compound could be viewed as a criminal enterprise from which all children could legally be removed. If those effected by the state's action want to argue the state overstepped it's authority they may but it's mostly a legal quibble that is not going to allow the YFZ people to get away clean.
The fact that there may be some couples in this sect that live monogomously in no way effects the perception that there were a lot of people involved in poligamy. Supposedly, one guy had 22 wives. The cops have the power to intrude till things are sorted out to their satisfaction.
One of the problems with this situation is the sect members have refused to devulge what they know or have lied about material facts like their ages. Giving statements to the media while withholding same from the cops is a tricky business. I hope all who are running the show at the compound have their ducks in a row. Loose lips sink ships.

Tanbark Spanker
04-26-2008, 10:18 PM
You know, all of the skanky ol' Bohemian Grove skeazers are gay pedophiles. Just Waco all these weird-ass cults and be through with them.

Tylerdurden
04-27-2008, 04:06 AM
Don't know who's behind yours squib but, from what I get from first water-sources like the New York Times

Explains everything, go back to sleep.:D

First muddy water sources:D

Tylerdurden
04-27-2008, 04:07 AM
You know, all of the skanky ol' Bohemian Grove skeazers are gay pedophiles. Just Waco all these weird-ass cults and be through with them.

Its not true until its in the New York Times:D

Cuyahoga Chuck
04-27-2008, 08:42 AM
Its not true until its in the New York Times:D

At least they have a name and a street address. That's much more than can be said for all of the slanted dreck you mine from the web.

Tylerdurden
04-27-2008, 09:08 AM
At least they have a name and a street address. That's much more than can be said for all of the slanted dreck you mine from the web.

Oh, you must mean government sources:D

Cuyahoga Chuck
04-27-2008, 09:31 AM
No matter how pungent your one-liners are they don't carry this debate very far. You should spend more time getting your stuff from the web.

Tylerdurden
04-27-2008, 09:57 AM
No matter how pungent your one-liners are they don't carry this debate very far. You should spend more time getting your stuff from the web.

What debate? You have a group of people who believe in the rule of law and the founding documents and then you have a group of fascists who whenever cornered pull out such solid legal terms as child f...ers.

You go girl!
http://www.jossip.com/gossip/200607-nancygrace.jpg

Tylerdurden
04-28-2008, 04:11 AM
FLDS children in Texas custody reportedly hospitalized

By Brooke Adams
The Salt Lake Tribune
Article Last Updated: 04/27/2008 12:22:59 PM MDT
Posted: 12:24 PM- At least three children taken from a polygamous sect's ranch are in the hospital and attorneys for their mothers say they have received little or no information about their conditions.

http://www.sltrib.com/faith/ci_9075298

" TRLA said the organization was told two days ago that the child was in shock and lethargic, but has received no new information since then about where the child is or regarding her current health situation.
The mother is not being allowed to be with this child or her other nursing children, Chisholm said."

kharee
04-28-2008, 06:45 AM
Ben Stein as come out for justice for the FLDS. God bless Ben!

Cuyahoga Chuck
04-28-2008, 09:47 AM
Ben Stein as come out for justice for the FLDS. God bless Ben!

Can't figure out where you and your buddy, Ben, are headed.
Are you two advocating allowing the YFZ folks freedom to go on in feloniuos splendor or do you want all the wrongdoers from the ranch to be shipped off to Huntsville ASAP? I have an idea that an FLDS "posse" in a max security prison isn't going to fare too well. What does Ben have say about that?
The devil is in the details.

Cuyahoga Chuck
04-28-2008, 09:53 AM
FLDS children in Texas custody reportedly hospitalized


The mother is not being allowed to be with this child or her other nursing children, Chisholm said."

The female anatomy has it's limitations. How many children is this mother nursing?

Chris Coose
04-28-2008, 05:45 PM
http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/04/28/polygamist.retreat.ap/index.html

And away we go Alice!!
You guys ought to pick up Under the Banner before your heads explode from what is further to come from these child rapists.

Tylerdurden
04-28-2008, 06:00 PM
http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/04/28/polygamist.retreat.ap/index.html

And away we go Alice!!
You guys ought to pick up Under the Banner before your heads explode from what is further to come from these child rapists.

"Civil-liberties groups and lawyers for the children have criticized the state for sweeping all the children, from nursing infants to teen boys, into foster care when only teen girls are alleged to have been sexually abused.

No one has been charged since the raid, which was prompted by a series of calls to a domestic abuse hotline, purportedly from a 16-year-old forced into a marriage recognized only by the sect with a man three times her age. That girl has not been found and authorities are investigating whether the call was a hoax. "

Cuyahoga Chuck
04-28-2008, 06:26 PM
This was on the nightly news and I only heard it once so I can't say it has been comfirmed yet.
Texas authorities have now stated they have in their custody 31 girls from the YFZ ranch who are between the ages of 13 and 17 and who have either given birth or are pregnant.
If this is, truely, the case most of the accusations aimed at Child Protective Services have fallen into the dust and there are reasons to expand the ongoing civil case into a criminal case as well.
If anyone has a web site that explains how the FLDS got the secret of virgin birth now is the time to show it.

Saltiguy
04-28-2008, 06:28 PM
Maybe the place is a nest of rape and incest. Maybe. Maybe the men should be hung up by their gronicals.

Or, maybe the whole thing is a cluster-mess. Maybe they will have to "invent" a crime to get a "show" conviction or two.

Anyway, the whole thing reeks of ineptness and abuse of power directed at some religious fringees who are "different". Whatever happened to due process? Should there not be an investigation before such an invasion takes place? Swat teams? Armored Personell Carriers?

Should Catholic orphanages be invaded in such a manner? Why not? There are verified acts of sexual abuse committed in these places.

Cuyahoga Chuck
04-28-2008, 07:03 PM
Maybe the place is a nest of rape and incest. Maybe. Maybe the men should be hung up by their gronicals.

Or, maybe the whole thing is a cluster-mess. Maybe they will have to "invent" a crime to get a "show" conviction or two.

Anyway, the whole thing reeks of ineptness and abuse of power directed at some religious fringees who are "different". Whatever happened to due process? Should there not be an investigation before such an invasion takes place? Swat teams? Armored Personell Carriers?

Should Catholic orphanages be invaded in such a manner? Why not? There are verified acts of sexual abuse committed in these places.

Your comparison "reeks of ineptness".
If the State of Texas has 31 examples of inseminated children coming from one location they have a crime wave on their hands and can, hardly, ignore it.
If the State of Texas was heavy handed in their investigation of the goings on at the YFZ ranch they can legitimately be critisized but that does not impinge upon the quality or the validity of the evidence they collected while there. I've said this several times already. Once the cops were on the scene what they saw or heard can give them "probable cause" to investigate other suspected illegal activities not mentioned in the warrant.
Bringing up the Catholic pedophile scandal is a cannard. Pedophila among priests was not a doctrine of the Catholic Church. It was allowed to progress because, first, families of victims were often hesitant to drop the dime on a priest and, second, various diocese shunted accused pedophiles around to keep them out of the hands of the law. Even so, numerous priests went to prison. Many avoided conviction because accusations came out decades after the fact and the statute of limitations intervened. If there was a case of a pedophile operating in a Catholic orphanage I am unaware of it. In fact, I don't think there have been any Catholic orphanages operating anywhere for many decades.
You are free to contradict any or all of this. But, you had better get your ducks in a row,first.

kharee
04-28-2008, 10:21 PM
How many live births occur in the state of Texas each year among females of this age group? Could we get a break down by ethnicity? Could we start with the county the FLDS compound is located in? Has the state of Texas located and identified the mama's baby's daddies?

The FLDS females are in serious stable relationships, while the majority of live births in Texas in this age group is just the product of animal lust mistaken for love after the football game. Babies having babies by babies. The FLDS have a better social system then any state welfare system. Just drive through the projects and see for yourself. Where would you rather stay in the projects, the trailer parks or the FLDS community?

What the state of Texas is proposing is to make the FLDS females just another bunch of welfare mamas just like the majority of the clients of the Texas CPS. No more and no less. Shame on Texas.

Cuyahoga Chuck
04-28-2008, 10:42 PM
It don't matter how many. Whether it's one or one hundred thousand the state has the responsabilty to prosecute them all if a felony is suspected and evidence can be presented in court.
Nobody's felony becomes less a felony because hundreds or thousands of others commit that felony,too.
What you are implying is legal nonsense.
There may be other shoes dropping soon. If they transported young girls across state lines for sexual puposes that's a violation of the Mann Act. A federal crime. If the various FLDS colonies operated across state lines for illegal puposes that could be construed as a violation of the RICO statute i.e. operating a criminal enterprise. Another federal crime. The potential is endless.
I'll bet the State Dept. is going thru' the passport records as we speak to see if any of the head honchos of the YFZ ranch (the guys whose faces have never appeared on camera) is a passport holder.
The DNA samples are in the works so it may not even take any finger pointing to nail the culprits. Not even Orrin Hatch can pull those kind of chestnuts out of the fire.

bilgerunner
04-28-2008, 11:13 PM
The FLDS females are in serious stable relationship...

Stable relationships? What have you been smoking?

There was a story yesterday about a man who kept his own daughter locked in the basement for 23 years and impregnated her with six children. I'll bet you think that she was in a "stable relationship" too.

Tylerdurden
04-29-2008, 03:09 AM
Your comparison "reeks of ineptness".
If the State of Texas has 31 examples of inseminated children coming from one location they have a crime wave on their hands and can, hardly, ignore it.
If the State of Texas was heavy handed in their investigation of the goings on at the YFZ ranch they can legitimately be critisized but that does not impinge upon the quality or the validity of the evidence they collected while there. I've said this several times already. Once the cops were on the scene what they saw or heard can give them "probable cause" to investigate other suspected illegal activities not mentioned in the warrant.
Bringing up the Catholic pedophile scandal is a cannard. Pedophila among priests was not a doctrine of the Catholic Church. It was allowed to progress because, first, families of victims were often hesitant to drop the dime on a priest and, second, various diocese shunted accused pedophiles around to keep them out of the hands of the law. Even so, numerous priests went to prison. Many avoided conviction because accusations came out decades after the fact and the statute of limitations intervened. If there was a case of a pedophile operating in a Catholic orphanage I am unaware of it. In fact, I don't think there have been any Catholic orphanages operating anywhere for many decades.
You are free to contradict any or all of this. But, you had better get your ducks in a row,first.

"In November 2004, I launched an investigation into possible Medicaid prescription drug fraud and abuse in our state's foster care system.
"I am here today to release disturbing information found during my investigation about the deaths, poisonings, rapes and pregnancies of children in our state's foster care system.
"I found, from information provided by the Texas Department of Family and Protective Services, in Fiscal 2003, 30 foster children died in our state's care; in Fiscal 2004, 38 foster children died; and in Fiscal 2005, 48 foster children died.
"Data shows that while the number of foster children in our state's care increased 24 percent from 26,133 in Fiscal 2003 to 32,474 in Fiscal 2005, the number of deaths increased 60 percent.
"If you compare the number of deaths of children in our state's population to the number of deaths in our state's foster care system, a child is four times more likely to die in our state's foster care system.
"Based on Fiscal 2004 data provided by the Health and Human Services Commission, about 100 children received treatment for poisoning from medications; 63 foster children received medical treatment for rape that occurred while in the foster care system; and 142 children gave birth while in the state foster care system.
"As alarming as these cases are, we can only imagine how much worse the Fiscal 2005 data is because Gov. Perry's Health and Human Services Commission has refused to provide the data needed to complete my investigation."

Comptroller Strayhorn Statement
On Foster Care Abuse
Friday, June 23, 2006

http://www.window.state.tx.us/news/60623statement.html


Looks like they ignored this one Chuckie.

"As alarming as these cases are, we can only imagine how much worse the Fiscal 2005 data is because Gov. Perry's Health and Human Services Commission has refused to provide the data needed to complete my investigation."

kharee
04-29-2008, 07:06 AM
BilgeRunner, what does some incestuous Monogamist in Austria have to do with this case? Other than make my point.

If anything it illustrates the point that monogamy is no panacea against sexual predators. Polygamy does not creates sexual predators. Unless you think old Hugh Hefner is a sexual predator. Monogamy tend more toward sexual predation than polygamy because the female can be isolated from family and friends.


I am not a proponent of child marriages in general but I would rather a 14 y.o. girl be married to an adult male and build a stable family than have 4 or 5 babies by 4 or 5 different daddies by the time she is 21 y.o.

There is a ban on bills of attainders in the constitution, . Texas raising the age of marriage to sixteen then attempting to prosecute those already married is the same as a blanket bill of attainder. (the lawyers in the house may want to check me or correct me on this)

If an issue just won't go away, like marijuana or polygamy or civil rights for Blacks or gay rights or the tax protests against the IRS, its a good sign that the powers that be have gotten it wrong in the first place. Think about it!

Tylerdurden
04-29-2008, 07:12 AM
BilgeRunner, what does some incestuous Monogamist in Austria have to do with this case? Other than make my point.

If anything it illustrates the point that monogamy is no panacea against sexual predators. Polygamy does not creates sexual predators. Unless you think old Hugh Hefner is a sexual predator. Monogamy tend more toward sexual predation than polygamy because the female can be isolated from family and friends.


I am not a proponent of child marriages in general but I would rather a 14 y.o. girl be married to an adult male and build a stable family than have 4 or 5 babies by 4 or 5 different daddies by the time she is 21 y.o.

There is a ban on bills of attainders in the constitution, . Texas raising the age of marriage to sixteen then attempting to prosecute those already married is the same as a blanket bill of attainder. (the lawyers in the house may want to check me or correct me on this)

If an issue just won't go away, like marijuana or polygamy or civil rights for Blacks or gay rights or the tax protests against the IRS, its a good sign that the powers that be have gotten it wrong in the first place. Think about it!

You really need to stop making sense... you will never have to many friends here:rolleyes:

Cuyahoga Chuck
04-29-2008, 08:35 AM
"In November 2004, I launched an investigation into possible Medicaid prescription drug fraud and abuse in our state's foster care system.
"I am here today to release disturbing information found during my investigation about the deaths, poisonings, rapes and pregnancies of children in our state's foster care system.
"I found, from information provided by the Texas Department of Family and Protective Services, in Fiscal 2003, 30 foster children died in our state's care; in Fiscal 2004, 38 foster children died; and in Fiscal 2005, 48 foster children died.
"Data shows that while the number of foster children in our state's care increased 24 percent from 26,133 in Fiscal 2003 to 32,474 in Fiscal 2005, the number of deaths increased 60 percent.
"If you compare the number of deaths of children in our state's population to the number of deaths in our state's foster care system, a child is four times more likely to die in our state's foster care system.
"Based on Fiscal 2004 data provided by the Health and Human Services Commission, about 100 children received treatment for poisoning from medications; 63 foster children received medical treatment for rape that occurred while in the foster care system; and 142 children gave birth while in the state foster care system.
"As alarming as these cases are, we can only imagine how much worse the Fiscal 2005 data is because Gov. Perry's Health and Human Services Commission has refused to provide the data needed to complete my investigation."

Comptroller Strayhorn Statement
On Foster Care Abuse
Friday, June 23, 2006

http://www.window.state.tx.us/news/60623statement.html


Looks like they ignored this one Chuckie.

"As alarming as these cases are, we can only imagine how much worse the Fiscal 2005 data is because Gov. Perry's Health and Human Services Commission has refused to provide the data needed to complete my investigation."

You're way behind the news curve.
This could be a big time criminal prosecution, now, if the YFZ ranch was, in fact, harboring 31 underage mothers. The state of Texas could hardly ignore 31 cases of rape that occured in one little town out in the boonies.

Tylerdurden
04-29-2008, 08:43 AM
You're way behind the news curve.
This could be a big time criminal prosecution, now, if the YFZ ranch was, in fact, harboring 31 underage mothers. The state of Texas coluld hardly ignore 31 cases of rape that occured in one little town out in the boonies.

So the over 63 rapes and 140 children giving birth is old news to who?
You? Them?

It seems your outrage only extends to religious groups and its ok for the state to let pass children f---ers?

Cuyahoga Chuck
04-29-2008, 09:10 AM
If anything it illustrates the point that monogamy is no panacea against sexual predators. Polygamy does not creates sexual predators. Unless you think old Hugh Hefner is a sexual predator. Monogamy tend more toward sexual predation than polygamy because the female can be isolated from family and friends.!

The line of reasoning in this paragraph is impossible to follow.
Monogamy is LEGAL.
Polygamy is a CRIME
Rape, in either situation, is a CRIME
I don't think anyone has suggested that polygamy was the cause of the suspected rapes. But, the religious doctrines of the FLDS may well have been.
If you think there are lessons to be learned from Hugh Heffner's proclivities you are welcome to do that but, I ain't going to go there.




I am not a proponent of child marriages in general but I would rather a 14 y.o. girl be married to an adult male and build a stable family than have 4 or 5 babies by 4 or 5 different daddies by the time she is 21 y.o.!

You have just constructed a "straw man". In this case a contrived situation that tries to show what you are defending ain't so bad after all. As best as I can make out you are trying to establish child rape as a bulwark against a licensious lifestyle. If you have any examples lay them out. I am sure the police would be very interested.




There is a ban on bills of attainders in the constitution, . Texas raising the age of marriage to sixteen then attempting to prosecute those already married is the same as a blanket bill of attainder. (the lawyers in the house may want to check me or correct me on this)!

This is the first thing you have said that is correct. You don't have grip on what you are talking about. I won't bore you with the details but, there is no indication that the state of Texas is trying to do what you say they are trying to do. If you want to post things that are false you had better find a web site where the participants or much more ignorant than they are here.



If an issue just won't go away, like marijuana or polygamy or civil rights for Blacks or gay rights or the tax protests against the IRS, its a good sign that the powers that be have gotten it wrong in the first place. Think about it!

I think they had better check the water in Lake Powell.

Tylerdurden
04-29-2008, 09:35 AM
I think they had better check the water in Lake Powell.

Why is it on fire?:D

Spin_Drift
04-29-2008, 11:37 AM
Latest news...

Officials say 31 teen sect girls are pregnant or had baby

MICHELLE ROBERTS, Associated Press WriterTue Apr 29, 7:19 AM ET

Texas child welfare officials say almost 60 percent of the underage girls taken in a raid on a polygamist compound in west Texas either have children or are pregnant.

Of the 53 girls between the ages of 14 and 17 who are in state custody, 31 either have given birth or are expecting, said Child Protective Services spokesman Darrell Azar.

"It shows you a pretty distinct pattern, that it was pretty pervasive," Azar said Monday after releasing the latest figures.

Under Texas law, children under the age of 17 generally cannot consent to sex with an adult. A girl can get married with parental permission at 16, but none of these girls is believed to have a legal marriage under state law.

Church officials have denied that any children were abused at the Yearning For Zion Ranch in Eldorado and say the state's actions are a form of religious persecution.

State officials took custody of all 463 children at the ranch controlled by the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, saying a pattern of teen girls forced into underage "spiritual" marriages and sex with much older men created an unsafe environment for the sect's children.

FLDS spokesman Rod Parker said he does not believe the CPS count is accurate. He said that from talking to ranch residents, he believes at least 17 of the girls may actually be adults but have been labeled by child welfare authorities as minors.

Agency officials have called into question claims of adulthood among the girls since the raid and have in some cases disputed documentation provided, saying the girls look younger than 18.

Because many FLDS members share similar names and have complicated family relationships, identifying all of the children taken into custody has been a challenge.

"I do have serious questions about how they are determining age in there," said Parker, who is trying to get a better count from FLDS families.

He said the sect is at a disadvantage in proving names and ages because law enforcement confiscated every document that might show family relationships.

The latest information from CPS comes with "absolutely nothing to back it up other than it's coming from them, and they think we should trust them," Parker said.

All the children are supposed to get individual hearings before June 5 to help determine if they'll stay in state custody or if their parents may be able to take steps to regain custody.

Civil liberties groups and lawyers for the children have criticized the state for sweeping all the children, from nursing infants to teen boys, into foster care when only teen girls are alleged to have been sexually abused.

No one has been charged since the raid, which was prompted by a series of calls to a domestic abuse hot line, purportedly from a 16-year-old girl forced into a marriage recognized only by the sect with a man three times her age. That girl has not been found and authorities are investigating whether the call was a hoax.

On Monday, CPS also revised its total count of children in state custody to 463, up one from Friday. Azar said the change resulted from finally getting the children out of temporary housing in the San Angelo Coliseum and into foster facilities around the state where they could get a more accurate count.

Of the 463 children, 250 are girls and 213 are boys. Children 13 and younger are about evenly split — 197 girls and 196 boys — but there are only 17 boys aged 14 to 17 compared with the 53 girls in that age range.

Azar said the numbers could still change slightly because authorities have not seen documentation on all the children and have struggled to positively identify everyone.

The sect, which broke from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints more than a century ago, believes polygamy brings glorification in heaven. Its leader, Warren Jeffs, is revered as a prophet. Jeffs was convicted last year in Utah of forcing a 14-year-old girl into marriage with an older cousin.

Chris Coose
04-29-2008, 12:04 PM
I wonder if they have to do carbon dating on the paternal XY chromsomes to determine the daddies?

Fossil rapists.

I am thrilled this thing will be detonated into oblivion. It's like one of the last scenes where Freddy Kruger's daughter has him all trussed up ad she is bout to push the plunger and Freddy looks at the camera and says with a grim attitude, "kids these days"

Kafucking BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM

Cuyahoga Chuck
04-29-2008, 12:10 PM
Rod Parker is really up against it if the best he can do is contest the number of under age mothers. He is, essentially, arguing that the number of rapes is not 31 but, "only" 14.
I hope he is not stupid enough to hurl that at the judge when this case gets into court.
A lot of this could be sorted out quickly by producing birth certificates and marriage licenses for those effected. Without records the next best thing is good ol' DNA profiles. I'm sure Rod will try to spike that, too.
Good luck, Rod. But, shouldn't your bailing bucket have a bottom?

kharee
04-30-2008, 04:20 PM
The state can say what ever it pleases through the stooge news media. The state as not presented any evidence in a court of law before a jury . Until then the FLDS is innocent of all charges.

This case is going to drag the governor and the judge down to defeat as it gets more and more difficult for the state to stave off the constitutional issues involved.

They tactic the state has been trying so far is to expand the charges and allegations of abuse. The shotgun approach; fire both barrels we got to hit something!

Now we are hearing allegations of broken bones and sexual molestation of the boys. Still no proof. They even admit that CPS has taken no x-rays!

This is looking more and more like those bogus daycare abuse cases of the late eighties and early nineties. Good bye Gov. Perry!

If anything should tell you about Texas justice its the 30 innocent men who have recently been released from death row and pardoned or await pardons.

It is beginning to look as if the Colorado and Washington state authorities had contacted Texas about the woman making bogus phone calls claiming abuse before the raid. We still have not seen the phone records, must be a dead cat on the line! Colorado and Washington state will not get in this to save Texas. Texas has a problem and its not the FLDS!

skuthorp
04-30-2008, 04:47 PM
Pederasty and rape are still pederasty and rape, no matter what religious mumbo jumbo and political opportunism you dress it up in. I hope Texas follows precedent and hangs a bunch of these criminals.

Tylerdurden
04-30-2008, 05:05 PM
Pederasty and rape are still pederasty and rape, no matter what religious mumbo jumbo and political opportunism you dress it up in. I hope Texas follows precedent and hangs a bunch of these criminals.

I would tend to think all of us feel the same way except I am afraid its way too keystone cops to hope for any real effect.
Seen it to many times before, everybody involved gets emotional and messes up the case so many win on appeal down the road even if convicted. For the Kids its 50/50 and usually after they testify and the case is over the state kicks them to the curb.

This smells way to McMartin to hope for any decent outcome.

Chris Coose
04-30-2008, 05:14 PM
The best outcome is, these life taking bastards won't ever do business in America as they have.

And what I mean by life taking is they don't get to remove a person's free will from birth by crazed based indoctrination.
And please be my guest by being a Joseph Smith apologist.

Screwing young girls is nothing compared to implanting a twisted destiny. And you don't need a court to prove that happens.

Cuyahoga Chuck
04-30-2008, 08:06 PM
The state can say what ever it pleases through the stooge news media. The state as not presented any evidence in a court of law before a jury . Until then the FLDS is innocent of all charges.

This is a difficult case. It's aimed at a tightly wound religious group. Everyone with firsthand knowledge is a member of that religious group.
For most it is the only society they know. The eveidence may be hard or even impossible to get. But, the state has a duty to procede based on what they have uncovered so far.


This case is going to drag the governor and the judge down to defeat as it gets more and more difficult for the state to stave off the constitutional issues involved.

You were already challenged to lay out your constitutional arguments. So far you have contributed zip.


They tactic the state has been trying so far is to expand the charges and allegations of abuse. The shotgun approach; fire both barrels we got to hit something!

Wrong again! The state has adopted the common investigative tactic of keeping the various player or groups of player in this case separated so that it is impossible for them to confirm each other's stories unless it is true.



Now we are hearing allegations of broken bones and sexual molestation of the boys. Still no proof. They even admit that CPS has taken no x-rays!

Most likely the hospital that set the fractures does. In any event, so what? If a little kid says he broke his arm it is likely true. It's something that is not easily forgotten. If the state started x-raying the kids it's opponents could claim it was exposing them to unwaranted radiation. In terms of any criminal ramifications it doesn't matter at the moment. The state has evidence of big time criminality.


This is looking more and more like those bogus daycare abuse cases of the late eighties and early nineties. Good bye Gov. Perry!!

You and that crystal ball!


If anything should tell you about Texas justice its the 30 innocent men who have recently been released from death row and pardoned or await pardons.

The Texas judicial system is not a pragon of perfection. But, that has nothing to do with this case. Most of those cases came from Dallas which is along way away. You are trying the old "guilt by association" scam. Shame on you!


It is beginning to look as if the Colorado and Washington state authorities had contacted Texas about the woman making bogus phone calls claiming abuse before the raid. We still have not seen the phone records, must be a dead cat on the line! Colorado and Washington state will not get in this to save Texas. Texas has a problem and its not the FLDS!

Again, and again and again, a flaw in the warrant does not preclude other evidence taking based on "probable cause". Some of the girls have recently admitted to being underage mothers with all that implies. If the state starts getting the names of the fathers the county jail may not be big enough to hold them all.

George Roberts
04-30-2008, 09:02 PM
"Until then the FLDS is innocent of all charges."

There is a difference between innocent and not guilty. Courts do not determine innocence. They decide guilt or lack of guilt.

Cuyahoga Chuck
04-30-2008, 10:17 PM
The number of children in the care of Texas' Child Protective Services just went up by one. One of the children gave birth to a son yesterday.

Tylerdurden
05-01-2008, 02:46 AM
The number of children in the care of Texas' Child Protective Services just went up by one. One of the children gave birth to a son yesterday.

Any idea how many gave birth in foster care?

Too much sensationalism to trust anything being said.

Chris Coose
05-01-2008, 05:42 AM
You don't trust this report that a child gave birth to a child?