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View Full Version : Six US cities tamper with traffic cameras for profit.



Tylerdurden
04-13-2008, 11:14 AM
Seems They got caught shortening up the Amber light time to increase profits.


http://www.leftlanenews.com/six-us-cities-tamper-with-traffic-cameras-for-profit.html

ljb5
04-13-2008, 11:31 AM
If they're doing it to get more money, it stands to reason that drivers are paying more money.

If drivers are paying more money, it won't be long before they change their driving habits -- so it would actually make the roads safer.

Of course, they shouldn't be decreasing the amber time below the legal limit.... but you gotta recognize that the ultimate responsibility lies with the person driving the car.

Tylerdurden
04-13-2008, 11:33 AM
If they're doing it to get more money, it stands to reason that drivers are paying more money.

If drivers are paying more money, it won't be long before they change their driving habits -- so it would actually make the roads safer.

Of course, they shouldn't be decreasing the amber time below the legal limit.... but you gotta recognize that the ultimate responsibility lies with the person driving the car.

Really, your serious?

ljb5
04-13-2008, 11:34 AM
Really, your serious?


Absolutely. The responsibility for driving the car lies with the person behind the wheel.

If you're worried about getting a ticket, drive more carefully!

htom
04-13-2008, 11:57 AM
Only six of them?

Decreasing the yellow time I would think would lead to more accidents, as well.

Pernicious Atavist
04-13-2008, 12:07 PM
I was taught that green means go with caution, yellow means stop, red means stay. Anyway, a shorter yellow? How does one know how long it'll be yellow? No, stop at yellows..well, consider it as much as I do!

Wild Wassa
04-13-2008, 12:30 PM
Would anyone know why my old car doesn't get busted on the radar? My car is a silver blue Volvo 245 wagon. At least a dozen times in the last 3 months I should have been busted but I just don't get detected.

The Volvo has an ugly wedge shaped front on look that is all hard sloping angles, with no curves. It is like the angles deflect the radar signal ... like a stealth F117 Nighthawk.

I though it might have been the silver blue colour of the car that made the cops late in seeing me and delay them from pointing the beem at my car.

Are there any Volvo drivers or similar shaped vehicles drivers who also feel that they are overly lucky and perhaps driving on borrowed time?

When I went to the site to read the feature, I checked out the links and found radar detectors at $1500. I was thinking. how many times would I need to get busted to get value from the $1500, and realized that I don't get busted ... and that is what prompted my questions. If you keep getting busted perhaps invest in a Swedish radar deflector.

Warren.

Tylerdurden
04-13-2008, 12:35 PM
Just getting a kick out of how obviously programmed the masses are.

If any one of us did something like that we would be facing charges of fraud at the least. If the government does it it must be the slaves fault.

No wonder this country is in the toilet and about to flush.

Bob Adams
04-13-2008, 12:35 PM
Add Baltimore to the list. Not proven yet, but I knoew the lights with the cameras here have significantly shorter yellows.

Chris Ostlind
04-13-2008, 12:43 PM
.... but you gotta recognize that the ultimate responsibility lies with the person driving the car.

Dude, you sound just like the policy interpretor of actuarial data at an insurance company.

Next thing you know, some policy wonk wonder boy will say it's ultimately the responsibility of the guy on the ground when aircraft drop a significant part out of the sky, or let loose with one of those lovely blue ice turd blocks.

"Bubba, ya just shoulda been looking skyward more often. It is a dangerous world out there, ya know."

Katherine
04-13-2008, 12:49 PM
but you gotta recognize that the ultimate responsibility lies with the person driving the car.Well Duh, yeah, but something tells me ljb has never really had to think about how the average driver operates.:rolleyes:

Phillip Allen
04-13-2008, 02:13 PM
an illegal tax...of course ill-jay would support it

George Roberts
04-13-2008, 02:20 PM
"No, stop at yellows..well, consider it as much as I do!"

The problem with yellow light laws is that the physics and reality argue that it is impossible to obey them if the yellow is too short.

Certainly if the stopping time at maximum braking is less than the time the light is yellow, physics says that it is impossible to comply with the law. In addition there is reaction time and the width of the intersection to consider.

Tanbark Spanker
04-13-2008, 02:52 PM
One of the local defense contractors handles the stop light cameras in San Diego. Each flash of the camera stobe is $750.00. The contractor makes over %50 of the take, I've heard.

ljb5
04-13-2008, 03:28 PM
an illegal tax...of course ill-jay would support it

No, it's a tax on people who do illegal things. Yes, I'm all in favor of that.


Well Duh, yeah, but something tells me ljb has never really had to think about how the average driver operates.

As a former firefighter, I've too often seen what happens when people run red lights.

"You direct traffic around the accident... I'm going to go look for this guy's arm."

MiddleAgesMan
04-13-2008, 03:28 PM
"No, stop at yellows..well, consider it as much as I do!"

The problem with yellow light laws is that the physics and reality argue that it is impossible to obey them if the yellow is too short.

Certainly if the stopping time at maximum braking is less than the time the light is yellow, physics says that it is impossible to comply with the law. In addition there is reaction time and the width of the intersection to consider.

I was surprised Savannah wasn't one of the six cities but maybe it's because we only have a couple of the photo intersections, so far. The first one caught me late one night in light traffic. The speed limit is 45mph which requires a yellow interval from 4.5 to 6 seconds. But I was caught making a left turn onto a road that crosses at an angle less than 90 degrees, maybe 50 or 55 degrees. It's a moderate turn that you could make at or close to the speed limit. When the light turned I knew it would take a panic stop to succeed and success was not a sure thing so I continued. I crossed the stop bar a few hundredths of a second before the light turned red and the strobes went off.

In preparation for my defense I timed the yellow for that turn lane along with several other yellows around town. That yellow light was only 3 seconds, an interval recommended at intersections where speeds are 25mph or less. Since the speed limit was 45 and since it was a gradual left turn I argued 3 seconds wasn't enough but the statistics for that intersection showed the average speed through that turn was around 24mph. Yes, this is a very busy intersection with most traffic creeping through and a long line of traffic waiting during most of daylight hours. At 11PM with light traffic there was nothing to slow me down which means 3 seconds wasn't enough. Since the 24 hour average speed was 24mph so I was SOL.

Fredricksburg VA put in cameras and had short interval yellows for a couple years. Revenues increased but so did accidents. Then they decided to listen to reason; they increased the intervals and revenues fell a little but the accident rate fell a lot.

High C
04-13-2008, 03:41 PM
Add New Orleans to the list, and as is typical of the cities installing these cameras, the yellow light timing has been shortened, and accidents are on the rise.

It will be interesting to see how vulnerable they are to gunfire.

paladin
04-13-2008, 03:43 PM
Old style radar is passe.....now they use the Infrared machines......they operate with a subcarrier ($2 to build)...another $3 of parts....to build a square wave oscillator....to modulate the IR carrier......hook it up to a bunch of cheeeep IR LED's.....front and rear.....
The "radar" works on doppler shift information, one hertz per megahertz per mach speed...match the oscillator to the posted speed limit and the referebce "radar" will always register below the maximum legal speed.......
Communicationa act of 1934/1936 as amended 1968/1983 prohibits any federal agency from making a law as regards radio wave interception, although the local courts will always find in their own favor the folks that demanded to be heard by the supreme court never get the chance because the local gov always backs down at the last minute....
Virginia has signs posted, "Radar detectors illegal".....but they lost the case in court several years ago and had to refund a gazillion dollars plus return confiscated detectors, PLUS pay for the damage to some cars where the cops used crowbars to remove them......they took one out of a lawyers new benz...and lost big time.....HOWEVER the signs are still up and they never published the results of the law suit or made it generally public.......
30 years ago I made a buncha bucks designing and building the "jammers"......mostly for commercial operators..

Katherine
04-13-2008, 03:45 PM
As a former firefighter, I've too often seen what happens when people run red lights.

"You direct traffic around the accident... I'm going to go look for this guy's arm."You seem to be assuming that at some point all drivers can be forced to act responsibly all the time. That would be great in a perfect world. In case you hadn't noticed, but all those nice little safety systems modern cars have are because humans do some very dumb things. Actually studying the intersection and timing the lights to fit the driving patterns their will yield much fewer accidents then just sending people a ticket.:rolleyes:

High C
04-13-2008, 03:53 PM
...studying the intersection and timing the lights to fit the driving patterns their will yield much fewer accidents then just sending people a ticket.:rolleyes:

I recently listened to a traffic expert explain that it is EASY to set light timing to prevent nearly all accidents. To do otherwise is to deliberately cause accidents. There is an ideal yellow timing that is easily calculated based on the speed of traffic and the width of the intersection that, when used, eliminates nearly all wrecks.

Another effective method is to have a couple of seconds where all the lights are red, allowing time for last second interlopers to clear the intersection before the cross street turns green.

According to this guy, even at very busy intersections that employ both of these techniques, there are virtually no accidents.

Of course, some people would rather raise revenue for the ravenous government monster, no matter the cost in life and treasure.

ljb5
04-13-2008, 04:06 PM
Actually studying the intersection and timing the lights to fit the driving patterns their will yield much fewer accidents then just sending people a ticket.:rolleyes:

No argument there, timing lights and such (especially a time when all lights are red) can be very effective.

But don't underestimate the effect of sending someone a ticket. That can be quite influential also. Of course people get pissed about it.... but 99 times out of 100, they should be pissed at themselves.

When speed enforcement cameras came out in my area about 10 or 15 years ago, a friend of mine got busted for 65 in a 45 mph. She kept saying that she didn't think it should count because there wasn't a cop at the intersection. That never made much sense to me.

"We're you speeding?"

"Yes, but there was no one there to catch me."

"Doesn't matter. You were speeding and you got caught."

Everyone always thinks they have some "special" reason for why they shouldn't get a ticket.

S.V. Airlie
04-13-2008, 04:25 PM
First thing ljb5.. was the owner driving?
If so, ticket was deserved. If not questions...
A owner, I suppose is responsible but at what point is an owner liable for a driver's ticket. Should an owner with a clean ticket have the points on his lic.?

George Roberts
04-13-2008, 04:38 PM
"Should an owner with a clean ticket have the points on his lic.?"

Identifying the person who was driving at the time gets one off. Of course, you need to appear to testify when the real driver disputes the ticket.

----

I should tell the story of my youngest daughter going half way through an amber light. Only half way since a car coming in the opposite direction turned left in front of her and an accident resulted.

I did not think the accident was a big deal. Things happen. No one was hurt. The insurers were willing to pay the claims.

My daughter was given a ticket for going through a red light. While I was at the scene picking up my daughter and her passenger, I collected some information - where her car was when the light changed to amber, and how fast she was going. (I suspect the facts I gathered were wrong but ...) I also timed the amber light. In court I simply presented the numbers and my calculations showing that had my daughter not hit the oncoming car she would have cleared the intersection 1/2 second before the light turned red.

She was found not guilty. Sure made the other driver mad.

---

One needs to be very careful in locations where the lights sequence changes during the day. Often times the amber time changes which causes all sorts of problems for those who drive with expectations.

ljb5
04-13-2008, 04:41 PM
First thing ljb5.. was the owner driving?
If so, ticket was deserved. If not questions...
A owner, I suppose is responsible but at what point is an owner liable for a driver's ticket. Should an owner with a clean ticket have the points on his lic.?

The ticket is deserved by the person driving.

The owner of the car is responsible who drives it (unless it's been stolen, which is another matter entirely.)

As I understand it, no points are given for automated speeding tickets, just a fine.

If you lend your car to someone and they get caught, I think you need to work that out between the two of you. I don't think the government needs to get involved with that.

MiddleAgesMan
04-13-2008, 04:43 PM
...But don't underestimate the effect of sending someone a ticket. That can be quite influential also...


You're right about that. It influenced me to avoid that particular intersection. To do otherwise is to invite another undeserved ticket or an 80,000lb rig riding up my stern and taking off my head.

At the intersection where I got my ticket there are two left-turn lanes. I was in the right one and there was a Mitsubishi sport sedan in the left one. We were moving close to the same speed and were right next to each other when the light turned yellow. He hit the brakes and I thought he was crazy because we were so close.

Once I had my ticket I was able to go on line and watch the video that was captured during those few seconds. You can see the Mitsubishi slowing and stopping as I continued through. He came to a full stop with one-half of his car over the stop bar. In spite of firm suspension you could see the rear of his car drop when he reached full stop. It was obviously a panic stop for him and would have been for me, too. If the roads had been wet anything behind him would have been in double-panic-stop mode. If a big rig had been following him he would have been toast whether the pavement was wet or dry.

S.V. Airlie
04-13-2008, 04:44 PM
The ticket is deserved by the person driving.

The owner of the car is responsible who drives it (unless it's been stolen, which is another matter entirely.)

As I understand it, no points are given for automated speeding tickets, just a fine.

If you lend your car to someone and they get caught, I think you need to work that out between the two of you. I don't think the government needs to get involved with that.

The gov. is involved..!!! It gave the ticket. It did not care who was driving muchless who owned the car..
Not their problem..

Katherine
04-13-2008, 04:47 PM
The point of the article is that the cameras are being used to generate revenue, not stop accidents.:rolleyes:

ljb5
04-13-2008, 05:06 PM
The point of the article is that the cameras are being used to generate revenue, not stop accidents.:rolleyes:

Yes, but "revenue" is just another word for "fines." And when people get fined, they tend to change their behavoir.

Sure, there may be smarter ways of going about it.... such as advanced traffic control systems... but those systems are all based on computer models and (as some conservatives point out) all computer models are flawed and unreliable.

The surest way to get results is to hit them in the pocket book.

Katherine
04-13-2008, 05:08 PM
Yes, but "revenue" is just another word for "fines." And when people get fined, they tend to change their behavoir.Which is why no one should ever get more then one ticket?:rolleyes: I would hate to be defendant on THAT learning curve to prevent accidents.

Nicholas Scheuer
04-13-2008, 05:14 PM
Say what you will, Rockford, Illinois NEEDS these cameras ASAP. We've got way too many impatient people who will start accererating over half a block back when they see the yellow, clearly see the red while several car-lengths away from the intersection, nsd zoom through the red light, just before cross traffic begins to move on their green.

Are these folks chatting on a cell phone the whole time? You have to ask?

Moby Nick

Katherine
04-13-2008, 05:17 PM
Makes me wonder at what would be more effective: adding the cameras or studying the light timing and staging?

ljb5
04-13-2008, 05:18 PM
Which is why no one should ever get more then one ticket?

Some people learn slower than others, but I don't think we should give up on them.


:rolleyes: I would hate to be defendant on THAT learning curve to prevent accidents.

Sadly, we're all dependent on about a million factors to prevent accidents -- most of them well out of our control.

Driver's Ed and public service announcements can only do so much. Sometimes, you gotta put the hammer down.

Katherine
04-13-2008, 05:21 PM
Unfortunately, you'll never completely get rid of the stupid human factor. If that's what the cameras are actually trying to minimize, that's one thing. However, the article points out that they seem to be used as a money maker instead.

jack grebe
04-13-2008, 05:27 PM
Clearwater, Fl is doing that without camaras,
They have the Motorcycle cops sit at intersections
where the lights have been "retimed", pulling
people over with each cycle of the lights. I myself
got caught in it. I was the 4th car back from the light,
normally 8-10 cars get through this light. As my front bumper
crossed the white line, the light turned yellow. It was red
before my back bumper crossed the same line:eek:.

Cop listed me as 3rd car through red light....Whats
wrong with this picture:rolleyes:.
Traffic court on the 5th of May.:D

Bob Smalser
04-13-2008, 05:29 PM
The US has 43,000 motor vehicle fatalities a year. A figure one rarely hears about.

ljb5
04-13-2008, 05:30 PM
However, the article points out that they seem to be used as a money maker instead.

It appears the article was written by people who got caught and are reluctant to admit that it's their fault.


Makes me wonder at what would be more effective: adding the cameras or studying the light timing and staging?

Everytime I suggest studying something to find an effective solution, some people shout me down by saying that "studies" are unreliable and it's all just a scam by the powerful "studying" lobby.

I had a friend who studies traffic flow patterns at MIT. Heck, for all I know, he deliberately causes traffic jams so that people will give him more money for his "research." :D

jack grebe
04-13-2008, 05:37 PM
Heck, for all I know, he deliberately causes traffic jams so that people will give him more money for his "research." :D
If he is living in Pinellas Co. Fl. .......He probably is:mad:

Memphis Mike
04-13-2008, 05:51 PM
"That would be great in a perfect world. In case you hadn't noticed, but all those nice little safety systems modern cars have are because humans do some very dumb things. Actually studying the intersection and timing the lights to fit the driving patterns their will yield much fewer accidents then just sending people a ticket.:rolleyes:"

Well yeah in a perfect world BUT every city in this country depends on revenue generated from traffic offenses to help pay the bills, like it or not.

I've been driving professionally for twenty two years and I've seen what the results of running a red light can be....and I mean right in front of me on several different occasions. One guy was dead by the time I got out of the truck and walked over to check on him. He ran a red light and broad sided a dump truck.

My suggestion would be to hit em with the fine only make it 500 dollars.

Nicholas Scheuer
04-13-2008, 05:54 PM
Addendum to Smalzer's post:

A number of those fatalities happened at red lights in Rocklford, IL

Moby Nick

Tylerdurden
04-13-2008, 05:55 PM
Yes, but "revenue" is just another word for "fines." And when people get fined, they tend to change their behavoir.

Sure, there may be smarter ways of going about it.... such as advanced traffic control systems... but those systems are all based on computer models and (as some conservatives point out) all computer models are flawed and unreliable.

The surest way to get results is to hit them in the pocket book.

How about we herd them into camps for re-education. Those that cannot adjust shall be eliminated.

ljb5
04-13-2008, 06:03 PM
How about we herd them into camps for re-education. Those that cannot adjust shall be eliminated.

I think fines should be sufficent.

What's your solution... let people break the law and endanger others?

S/V Laura Ellen
04-13-2008, 06:08 PM
I swear that there are people hanging out at intersections waiting for me to come along. The light always seems to change to red just as I'm coming up to it.:eek::mad::confused:

htom
04-13-2008, 06:19 PM
Those of you who think that short yellows are some kind of a good idea need to think about the consequences when the short yellows turn into yellow blinks. You'll see the yellow flash, stand on the brakes, and the guy behind you will plow into you, caromming you into the intersection where others have the green.

This is not a good plan for even law abiding drivers, or perhaps especially not for them. It is good for the city budget, though.

jack grebe
04-13-2008, 06:27 PM
Those of you who think that short yellows are some kind of a good idea need to think about the consequences when the short yellows turn into yellow blinks. You'll see the yellow flash, stand on the brakes, and the guy behind you will plow into you, caromming you into the intersection where others have the green.

This is not a good plan for even law abiding drivers, or perhaps especially not for them. It is good for the city budget, though.
yup I agree 100%.
I worked on a sheriff's deputy's MH here the other week, and asked
about some of the things going on with "snowbird season" and traffic laws.
He refered to Clearwater PD as "NAZI's"

A real nice fellow though....made a few calls for me:cool:

Phillip Allen
04-13-2008, 06:34 PM
the fines aren't about saving lives...and ill-jay lied about that (couldn't be proved of course) the tickes are about hiring more street dept emploies, and a better desk at some director's office and a newer fax machine and about paying for studies on how to squeeze more money from the tax payers...this argument about traffic accidents is right down there with "pay the teacher more and Johnny will have a higher IQ"

jack grebe
04-13-2008, 06:36 PM
the fines aren't about saving lives...and ill-jay lied about that (couldn't be proved of course) the tickes are about hiring more street dept emploies, and a better desk at some director's office and a newer fax machine and about paying for studies on how to squeeze more money from the tax payers...this argument about traffic accidents is right down there with "pay the teacher and Johnny will have a higher I
Q"
Gee, The sheriff's deputy said something along those lines too:eek:

Tylerdurden
04-13-2008, 06:36 PM
I think fines should be sufficent.

What's your solution... let people break the law and endanger others?

No Zippy, Lets have a government that runs on law, not color of.

jack grebe
04-13-2008, 06:42 PM
No Zippy,
:rolleyes::D

ljb5
04-13-2008, 06:44 PM
the fines aren't about saving lives...

The opposition to the fines isn't about saving lives either.

It's more about people getting caught and not wanting to pay up.

If people were really serious about saving lives, they'd drive more cautiously and not run red lights.

Tylerdurden
04-13-2008, 06:49 PM
If people were really serious about saving lives, they'd drive more cautiously and not run red lights.

No if they were serious they would kill themselves to remove any risk of harming others.
Now do the right thing.

skuthorp
04-13-2008, 06:59 PM
I've been shunted twice pulling up at an amber light, it pay's to have a quick look behind. This morning 4 came through behind me an it was amber as I entered myself. Not going to get killed trying to avoid a fine, common sense and self preservation rules.

Katherine
04-13-2008, 07:08 PM
The shortened lights are betting on human nature and setting the drivers up to fail. If the jurisdiction cared about reducing accidents, they'd set the light timing to allow cars to make it safely through the intersection without panic stops.

Phillip Allen
04-13-2008, 07:52 PM
like I said, lives are not the point...a righteous sacrafice for the Alla of cash...

jack grebe
04-13-2008, 07:56 PM
, they'd drive more cautiously and not run red lights.
You didn't read my post did you? It's not always about how
you drive.
It's sometimes about how you are entrapped

brad9798
04-13-2008, 08:55 PM
The sky must be falling ... as THIS makes good sense to me!

"If they're doing it to get more money, it stands to reason that drivers are paying more money.

If drivers are paying more money, it won't be long before they change their driving habits -- so it would actually make the roads safer.

Of course, they shouldn't be decreasing the amber time below the legal limit.... but you gotta recognize that the ultimate responsibility lies with the person driving the car."

Add MORE red-light cameras, as far as I am concerned!

Damn, ljb, another agreement ... although it HAS been a while since the last!

:)

ljb5
04-13-2008, 09:01 PM
You didn't read my post did you? It's not always about how
you drive.
It's sometimes about how you are entrapped

Well, then that's part of the situation that needs to be addressed too.

I don't think the solution is to run more red lights. Maybe leave a little more space between cars, perhaps?

In my line of work, we often have requirements which seem at first to be absolutely impossible to fulfill..... yet after a few months of working and a few clever ideas, what once seemed impossible becomes commonplace.

I think a lot of people are familiar with that experience. I suspect that stopping for red lights is no different. Sure, everyone says it can't be done.... but you'll figure it out.

Phillip Allen
04-14-2008, 07:53 AM
If everyone complies wiath ill-jay's law what'll the government do for money?

Phillip Allen
04-14-2008, 07:54 AM
In other words...for a few here, the end justifies the means...sounds familiar don't it

Tylerdurden
04-14-2008, 07:58 AM
If everyone complies wiath ill-jay's law what'll the government do for money?

Kinda hoping they will starve. There was a town in NH who shut down the town government with no ill effects. The FD was volunteer so no biggie. Who needs them. We were once believers in limited government, Now its government who believes in limited people.

Gary E
04-14-2008, 08:01 AM
You didn't read my post did you? It's not always about how
you drive.
It's sometimes about how you are entrapped

Can you explain just how you are entrapped?

Phillip Allen
04-14-2008, 08:02 AM
we're closer to agreement on some things Mark...limiting people seems to make ill-jay's putter flutter alright...for him the end justifies the means

Phillip Allen
04-14-2008, 08:04 AM
with a shosrtened amber lightg, one is more likely to get caught under a red light...how hard is that to understand?

green means go
red means stop
and...amber means clear the intersection

ljb5
04-14-2008, 11:49 AM
If everyone complies wiath ill-jay's law what'll the government do for money?

What do you suppose would be the consequences if no one stopped when the light turned red???

Think about it for a second... you know I'm right.

Phillip Allen
04-14-2008, 01:13 PM
right about what?

ljb5
04-14-2008, 01:24 PM
right about what?

That people ought to stop for red lights.

Sure, it's a minor inconvenience and no one likes the government to tell them what they must do.... but when you get right down to it, stopping at red lights is really a pretty good idea.

Kaa
04-14-2008, 01:37 PM
There seems to be a fair amount of evidence that red-light traffic cameras increase accidents.

E.g. http://www.motorists.org/blog/red-light-cameras/red-light-cameras-increase-accidents-5-studies-that-prove-it/

or the latest one, came out a month ago: http://www2.tbo.com/content/2008/mar/12/na-red-light-cameras-increase-accidents-usf-study-/

Kaa

ljb5
04-14-2008, 01:40 PM
There seems to be a fair amount of evidence that red-light traffic cameras increase accidents.

To paraphrase the NRA: "Cameras don't cause accidents. Bad drivers cause accidents."

Phillip Allen
04-14-2008, 01:44 PM
That people ought to stop for red lights.

Sure, it's a minor inconvenience and no one likes the government to tell them what they must do.... but when you get right down to it, stopping at red lights is really a pretty good idea.

well, I'm glad you see it my way. I've always thought red meant stop and I believe I posted that sentiment above

Kaa
04-14-2008, 01:47 PM
To paraphrase the NRA: "Cameras don't cause accidents. Bad drivers cause accidents."

Of course. But it's possible to create conditions which would encourage bad drivers to cause accidents, and conditions which would discourage them.

Red light cameras seem to belong to the former category.

Kaa

S.V. Airlie
04-14-2008, 05:19 PM
Of course. But it's possible to create conditions which would encourage bad drivers to cause accidents, and conditions which would discourage them.

Red light cameras seem to belong to the former category.

Kaa

Kaa.. he would not understand that logic. Heck, at the most he is 28 yrs. old. What the hell does he know..? More appropriately he doesn't know much except what someone tells him.
An ex fireman.. ex ambulance driver, a college grad, a chicken farmer.. found time to date and get married etc..
Yup, someone who really knows about life by the age of what? 30 max.
Yup experience..
So don't count on much of an answer. Ne won't answer unless he wants to. Avoidance.. Won't answer direct questions..
SPIN..lots of SPINNN the ljb5 way.

George Jung
04-15-2008, 12:38 PM
We've run this topic here before, a few years ago. The issue isn't running red lights - it's how some are shortening the yellow lights, making it dangerous (panic stops, once the public figures out this is a 'money light'), and virtually impossible to stop safely in many instances.

It's been exposed before - I recall MotorTrend doing an expose' on it years back. And anyone inclined to actually research the topic (as opposed to spouting off 'opinions for the masses' ala The Wiz) would find that cities are actually doing just such shenanigans, all in pursuit of raising revenues.
There oughta be a reckoning - I think it comes down to paying attention to who was behind this malfeasance, and when elections come up - vote the bastards out. Most of us don't pay that close of attention, however, or perhaps our attention spans just aren't that long - it's easier to just take our licks, maybe bitch a bit, and carry on. (That's my excuse, anyhoo)

Phillip Allen
04-15-2008, 01:22 PM
malfeasance...yes George...that is the correct word.

when people like ill-jay try to turn the topic away from the original complaint to something harder to argue with (running red lights) he shows just how much he is like certain Germans were in the 1930's and 40's. Those Jews and Gypsies were killed by "good" people who were always "right". They were killed by people who had children they loved and pretty wives and money to invest and who likely gave to their favorite charities...people with (often) advanced educations. People who had a “sense” of honor and NEVER questioned their own wisdom.

Their guiding light was (and is) “the end justifies the means“.

ljb5
04-15-2008, 01:34 PM
The issue isn't running red lights - it's how some are shortening the yellow lights, making it dangerous (panic stops, once the public figures out this is a 'money light'), and virtually impossible to stop safely in many instances.

Whenever someone says something is "virtually impossible" it just means they didn't plan ahead.

Driver's Ed 101:

If you're concerned about running a red light, the proper thing to do is slow down enough so that you'll be able to stop in time. If you're concerned that the guy in front of you might hit the brakes suddenly, the proper thing to do is slow down enough so that you can react in time without panic braking. If you're concerned that the guy behind you hasn't left enough room and might hit you from behind, the proper thing to do is slow down so that he will slow down also.

In general, a collision from behind between two cars moving in the same direction and slowing down is better than getting T-boned from the side while one car accelerates through the red light and the other car doesn't even see them coming.

If you're going to make a mistake while driving, it's much better to make the mistake of coming to a stop inside your own lane, instead of not coming to a stop across six lanes of traffic from multiple directions.

That has nothing to do with Germany in the 1930's (despite Phillip's desperate attempt to spin the topic), it's just plain common sense.

Phillip Allen
04-15-2008, 02:30 PM
not spinning the topic at all...just pointing out who is lying

ljb5
04-15-2008, 02:54 PM
not spinning the topic at all...just pointing out who is lying

Lying????

About what?

Phillip Allen
04-15-2008, 03:06 PM
you, without doubt, knew the topic was about the duration of amber lights and nothing to do with red lights. You swung the topic to red lights to place some of us in the position (you hoped) of having to agree with you and then claimed "I am right" while suggesting the benifet of shortening the duration of amber lights had obvious benifet of saving lives and, by extention (tacit), justified the money grab as benifecial. You further suggested that anyone caught in one of these traps was bent on running red lights...that you clearly believe that the end justifies the means places you squarely in Hitler's and Pol Pot's and their ilks camps...

the lie is nested in the intent to mislead away from the truth

ljb5
04-15-2008, 03:14 PM
...while suggesting the benifet of shortening the duration of amber lights had obvious benifet of saving lives

I didn't make that suggestion. I didn't say anything about the benefits of shortening the amber. In fact, I did say it shouldn't be shortened below the legal limit and that it is a good idea to adjust it to the optimal duration.

I did suggest that stopping for red lights is a damned good idea and that if a person needs to slow down to be able to do this, then that's a good idea too.


You further suggested that anyone caught in one of these traps was bent on running red lights.

Whether or not they were "bent" on running the red light, the fact is, they did. Intentional or not, it makes no difference.

If a car comes through your windshield and lands on your lap, it doesn't matter if the driver was bent on running the red light or did it inadvertently.

I'm sure more people get hit unintentionally than intentionally, so it really doesn't matter if the driver intended to run the red light or just failed to not run it.


..that you clearly believe that the end justifies the means places you squarely in Hitler's and Pol Pot's and their ilks camps...

Hogwash.

It would be helpful if you could restrict your comments to reality, not your fevered imagination.


the lie is nested in the intent to mislead away from the truth

The truth is that people shouldn't run red lights and they should be prepared to stop so that they don't run red lights.

If that means they need to slow down a little as they approach an intersection and leave more space between cars, that is perfectly acceptable.

If it costs them $20 to learn that lesson, that's okay with me. If it costs them $40 , they need to learn the lesson a little better. If it costs them $60, they must be pretty slow learners.

Perhaps by the time it costs them $100, they'll figure out to slow down, leave some space between cars and be ready to stop.

Phillip Allen
04-15-2008, 03:56 PM
"Whether or not they were "bent" on running the red light, the fact is, they did. Intentional or not, it makes no difference. "


"The truth is that people shouldn't run red lights and they should be prepared to stop so that they don't run red lights."


again...you are telling us that folks caught in a "Boss Hogg" trap some how deserve it...you should attempt to learn at least one language...

We were speqaking of a money grab and you switched it to another topic and claim to be telling the truth...once again, you lie

Phillip Allen
04-15-2008, 03:58 PM
BTW, around here such a red light ticket will cost more than $200...a weeks pay for some people and their old cars

ljb5
04-15-2008, 04:05 PM
We were speqaking of a money grab and you switched it to another topic.

You call it a money-grab, but it's really just basic law enforcement.

If you don't want them to get your money, don't run any red lights.

If you're worried that you can't stop in time, slow down a little.

If you still don't think you can stop, maybe you shouldn't be driving.


BTW, around here such a red light ticket will cost more than $200.

How much do you think it costs if you get t-boned by a speeding driver?

How much do you think it costs if you broadside a car with two kids in the backseat?

Phillip Allen
04-15-2008, 05:36 PM
are you saying a Boss Hog stunt is basic law enforcement?
"You call it a money-grab, but it's really just basic law enforcement."

Phillip Allen
04-15-2008, 05:36 PM
The topic (try and focus here) is amber/yellow lights...

George Jung
04-15-2008, 05:49 PM
I don't really think there's much percentage in trying to make Lil' smarter....

but to be fair, I understand where the misunderstanding arises. Lil', we're talking CARS here, not Schwinns, like you're riding to work. Higher speeds, more congested traffic. Maybe you've seen some of it while toodling along on the bike path? No one is arguing about the 'right' to run red lights; no one thinks that's a good idea.

The crux of the problem is when city commissions decide it'd be a good idea to shorten the time of the amber light, in an effort boost their collections. It has nothing to do with making the traffic safer; if everyone was drivng even slower, trying to anticipate these short lights, they'd manipulate the system even further. Maybe you missed that part - they're trying to get more money out of the general public, for their city coffers. They change the rules, you adapt, well.... they'll change the rules again. There have been numerous news stories written on this topic - you apparently didn't give it even a cursory look, or you'd be better informed on this subject. What is particularly telling is those instances where the folks responsible have been held accountable. You'll never see a faster backpeddle than what those folks demonstrate, when they're caught red handed.

ljb5
04-15-2008, 06:03 PM
are you saying a Boss Hog stunt is basic law enforcement?

Nope, I'm saying that basic law enforcement does not become a "Boss Hog stunt" simply because you say it is.

Everyone always has an excuse for why they don't think they should have got a ticket, but more often than not the answer is, "You shouldn't have done that and you got caught."

Everyone always wants to blame the policeman for catching them.... but the responsibility lies with the guy behind the wheel.

ljb5
04-15-2008, 06:24 PM
It's called the "Culture of Victimhood."

No one wants to accept the fact that they got busted.

Everyone wants to believe that it's someone else's fault.

George Jung
04-15-2008, 06:36 PM
George you laid things out clearly for him. He, as usual, wont accept it. At least you tried.


And I try so hard.......:p

Being Lil' is never having to say yer sorry.... (or wrong! that's verboten!) :D

Bob Adams
04-15-2008, 06:41 PM
I'll tell you this, there are several red light camera intersections in Baltimore where if you are doing the speed limit, and the light goes yellow, you have to lock up your brakes to avoid a violation. They were NOT like that before the camera installation. I'm sure Illjay will be along shortly to call me a liar, but it is what it is. Suspision here is the real fault lies with the contractors who maintain them, as they recieve a portion of the fines.

Lew Barrett
04-15-2008, 07:41 PM
This is an enhanced revenue generating device, and a clear case of entrapment.
Entrapment is not nice. In fact, speed traps are illegal in some states, (although admittedly equally ignored in others). California, of all places, has laws against entrapment on the road, and evidence gathered at speed traps is not admissible there. Entrapment is, on the face of it, unfair, and in this case very arguably dangerous, unlike speed traps, which are just unfair. It's hard to see how an advocate for the people could find otherwise.

capt jake
04-15-2008, 07:44 PM
This is an enhanced revenue generating device,

Be careful driving through Auburn. They were one of the first City's to put these in place. And the Mayor LOVES the revenue. He is all about the MONEY!

brad9798
04-15-2008, 08:06 PM
Around here, the red-light camera intersections have large, legible countdown timers ... 13...12...11...10...9...8...7...6...5...4...3...2. ..1...0(YELLOW light) ...

NO excuse WHATSOEVER for a red-light-related accident around my town.

Phillip Allen
04-15-2008, 08:33 PM
This is an enhanced revenue generating device, and a clear case of entrapment.
Entrapment is not nice. In fact, speed traps are illegal in some states, (although admittedly equally ignored in others). California, of all places, has laws against entrapment on the road, and evidence gathered at speed traps is not admissible there. Entrapment is, on the face of it, unfair, and in this case very arguably dangerous, unlike speed traps, which are just unfair. It's hard to see how an advocate for the people could find otherwise.

I've been telling you for years...he's not an advocate for the people, he is an advocate for the "party"
That is why I equated him with the Germans of the 1930's

Phillip Allen
04-15-2008, 08:36 PM
And Brad, I noted your "means justified" post...now I see why you thought it so simple...I've never seen one of those count down timers

ljb5
04-15-2008, 08:45 PM
I've been telling you for years...he's not an advocate for the people, he is an advocate for the "party"

Yes, I'm an adherent of the party of "Not mowing down pedestrians."

We have matching uniforms and everything.

:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Phillip Allen
04-16-2008, 07:32 AM
another attempt to change the subject...distraction, missdirection...spin

S.V. Airlie
04-16-2008, 07:35 AM
Okay, Phillip has posted..

Your turn lil Rush!:rolleyes:

Phillip Allen
04-16-2008, 07:39 AM
:) I just kain't abide bullies and fools...decided I'd see how far he is willing to take his lying

MiddleAgesMan
04-16-2008, 08:42 AM
I have always approached yellow lights with the attitude--if I can stop I will stop. My kids used to complain--Oh, Dad, you could have made that light! My answer was always, yes, maybe, but the plan is to stop if you can, not accelerate to see if you can make it. I drive that way today and occasionally a passenger will say the same thing--you could have made that one!

So for me to get caught by a camera set up to entrap due to a short yellow light was a real wake-up call. I'm all for photo-enforcement as long as the true goal is safety, but when yellow light intervals are so short as to invite rear-end crashes it becomes obvious that safety isn't really their goal.

S.V. Airlie
04-16-2008, 09:02 AM
All ya gotta add to this is having the person behind you be on a Cell Phone...:eek:

It's illegal to use one except for the hands off version in CT but that doesn't seem to stop too many people.
On one of my many trips to the DMV this winter/spring, I sat next to a guy whose wife was stopped for using her cell phone. The cop also discovered her registration had expired. Now the fine for the cell phone was more than the fine for an unregistered car. So, he gave her a ticket for her car being unregistyered.
I would have handed out TWO tickets.

Bob Adams
04-16-2008, 09:09 AM
another attempt to change the subject...distraction, missdirection...spin

And you expected what?:rolleyes:

TimH
04-16-2008, 09:18 AM
No if they were serious they would kill themselves to remove any risk of harming others.
Now do the right thing.

hehe :D

Phillip Allen
04-16-2008, 01:37 PM
I know he's seen this by now yet he has nothing to say...is this what an apology from him sounds like? No "oops, I made a mistake"? No "I have erred and it was Bush's fault"? At least he could shout at me what an ignorant fool I am...what a F---head I am...is he cowed or just madly googling for a new angle?

ljb5
04-16-2008, 02:44 PM
I know he's seen this by now yet he has nothing to say...

I already said everything I have to say on the subject.

Don't run red lights and you won't get caught. It's not a yellow light cam, it's a red light cam.

Driver's Ed 101:

If you don't think you can stop in time, slow down.
If you think you might hit the guy in front of you, slow down.
If you think you might get hit by the guy behind you, slow down.

That's not "lying" and it has nothing to do with either Hitler or Pol Pot.

Phillip Allen
04-16-2008, 02:50 PM
manipulating the yellow to trick a driver into running the red light is the topic...do you deny that?

Gary E
04-16-2008, 02:57 PM
Phillip... IF YOU KNOW that there is a camera at a intersection... why are you so thick headed as to tempt getting a ticket by running fast enough so you cant stop in time?? one solution...costs you nothing... SLOW THE HE!! DOWN...

Tom Wilkinson
04-16-2008, 03:08 PM
A question for those that seem to think that everyone should be stopping in time.

Is it possible for a yellow light to be timed such that it is impossible for a car travelling at the speed limit to stop before the light turns red?

Some municipalities are clearly putting revenue ahead of safety.

ljb5
04-16-2008, 03:08 PM
manipulating the yellow to trick a driver into running the red light is the topic...do you deny that?

People who get caught always think it's someone else's fault.

The responsibility always lies with the person behind the wheel.

Tom Wilkinson
04-16-2008, 03:15 PM
from the original article


cities have been found guilty of shortening the amber cycles below what is allowed by law

If the yellow light timing is illegal, is the person being ticketed still responsible?

Why is the municipality above the law?

ljb5
04-16-2008, 03:20 PM
If the yellow light timing is illegal, is the person being ticketed still responsible?

I already said that yellow lights shouldn't be shortened below the legal limit. Waaay back in my first post.

That being said, people need to understand the the posted speed limit represents the maximum permissible speed given optimal traffic, road and weather conditions.

You do not have (nor should you expect to have) an absolute right to drive at the speed limit regardless of the people in front of you, behind you, or on cross streets.

Your obligation to drive your car in control, not hit other people and stop at red lights supersedes your obligation to drive at the speed limit.

Tom Wilkinson
04-16-2008, 03:27 PM
I already said that yellow lights shouldn't be shortened below the legal limit.

Good, so it is quite possible that there are people being ticketed unjustly.

As to the rest of your post, I don't believe anyone has stated that they have an absolute right to drive the speed limit regardless of conditions or traffic.

htom
04-16-2008, 03:52 PM
A question for those that seem to think that everyone should be stopping in time.

Is it possible for a yellow light to be timed such that it is impossible for a car travelling at the speed limit to stop before the light turns red?

Some municipalities are clearly putting revenue ahead of safety.

Yes. To make an example, assume the car is driving the speed limit, 30 mph, and that it takes the driver 0.3 seconds to apply the brakes, and an average of 0.7 seconds to notice the light change and make the decision to brake. The light changes from green to yellow. It will take the driver a minimum of 1 second to begin braking, and another 2 seconds to come to a stop. That's teenage reaction times and adult comprehension times and no allowance for distractions, including watching the other cars. If the light then turns to red in three seconds or under, probably 99% of the population won't be able to stop.

If you have slow reflexes, not-perfect tires, a bad road, rain, snow, ice, someone honks at you, a sun flash blinks in your eyes ... you probably won't be able to stop if the yellow time is four or five seconds.

TimH
04-16-2008, 03:57 PM
If you think you might get hit by the guy behind you, slow down.




best to just slam on the brakes if a guy is going to hit you from behind. That will show'em. :rolleyes:

ljb5
04-16-2008, 04:43 PM
If you have slow reflexes, not-perfect tires, a bad road, rain, snow, ice, someone honks at you, a sun flash blinks in your eyes ... you probably won't be able to stop if the yellow time is four or five seconds.

It is the driver's responsibility to compensate for all of these factors.

If that means you might have to drive at a speed somewhat lower than the maximum allowable speed limit during optimal conditions, so be it.

S.V. Airlie
04-16-2008, 04:56 PM
lil Rush is back.. Hey little Rush.. How's the talk show circuit? Got a gig yet or still working with us dumb folk on the wooden boat forum?
Rush or James Cavell should be retiring soon. Got your fingers in the market?
Don't worry littleRush.. ya got a friend here in Gary E. You can dictate to him what to write.

Tom Wilkinson
04-16-2008, 05:03 PM
It is the driver's responsibility to compensate for all of these factors.

If that means you might have to drive at a speed somewhat lower than the maximum allowable speed limit during optimal conditions, so be it.

What the hell does any of that have to do with municipalities lowering the yellow light time below the legal limit in order to increase revenues.

Are you saying that it is also the drivers responsibility to anticipate a lower than legal yellow light time? Give it a rest.

S.V. Airlie
04-16-2008, 05:06 PM
What the hell does any of that have to do with municipalities lowering the yellow light time below the legal limit in order to increase revenues.

Are you saying that it is also the drivers responsibility to anticipate a lower than legal yellow light time? Give it a rest.

Dream.. littleRush is on a typical roll. Keep in mind.. he has almost hit thirty.. Probably has a driver by now.. So, it is the driver's fault if he runs an amber light.

Gary E
04-16-2008, 05:21 PM
Don't worry littleRush.. ya got a friend here in Gary E. You can dictate to him what to write.

Whutz your problem bacon boy... no drivers license??

S.V. Airlie
04-16-2008, 05:23 PM
Whutz your problem bacon boy... no drivers license??

Got my lic. got your green card yet? Problems with the INS?

Gary E
04-16-2008, 05:24 PM
Dont need one... do you?

S.V. Airlie
04-16-2008, 05:27 PM
Dont need one... do you?

Nope.. my family has been here since 1620.. So what dinghy did you come over on...?
Hey give my best to little Rush.. when you discuss with him what to say in his absence.

Bye now..

Gary E
04-16-2008, 05:29 PM
I dont talk to him, but if I do, I'l tell him you said hi...

S.V. Airlie
04-16-2008, 05:30 PM
I dont talk to him, but if I do, I'l tell him you said hi...

Please do..

George Jung
04-16-2008, 05:35 PM
Hehehe... you yahoos still wrestling with the pig? ( He really, really likes it!):p

Phillip Allen
04-16-2008, 06:54 PM
Phillip... IF YOU KNOW that there is a camera at a intersection... why are you so thick headed as to tempt getting a ticket by running fast enough so you cant stop in time?? one solution...costs you nothing... SLOW THE HE!! DOWN...

I don't run red lights...that is not the topic. the topic is government malfesense and corruption...go back and re read the original stuff...no poster here has advocated running red lights...the only exception to that is one poster who thinks a trick light saves me from "mowing down" pedestrians...(prolly why the starting blocks are nailed down at cross walks to give the walker/runner the best possible chance of cutting off cars so he can get hit)

ljb5
04-16-2008, 08:03 PM
...the only exception to that is one poster who thinks a trick light saves me from "mowing down" pedestrians...

That's about the fifth time you've mis-stated my position. You are very dishonest.

My position is that you are fully responsible for driving your car properly and in control and that you should be prepared to stop at any time, in control.

If you're approaching an intersection with a known speed trap, you should slow down a little. This will make you a safer driver and prevent you from getting a ticket.

You should not approach an intersection with the mindset that you are guaranteed passage through at any speed you choose.

There are many possible things that could go wrong at any intersection. Getting a ticket for running a red light is the easiest to avoid, the easiest to foresee and has the least dire consequences.

If that's the worst thing that happens to you, count yourself lucky and consider it a wake-up call to be more careful in the future. The next misfortune might not come with five seconds of advance warning.

Tom Wilkinson
04-16-2008, 08:07 PM
If you're approaching an intersection with a known speed trap, you should slow down a little. This will make you a safer driver and prevent you from getting a ticket.


And what about those that do not know it is a speed trap and has the yellow timed illegally. Is it OK to ticket them?

ljb5
04-16-2008, 08:15 PM
And what about those that do not know it is a speed trap and has the yellow timed illegally. Is it OK to ticket them?

As I have already said, the yellow should not be timed "illegally."

I don't know who sets the standard for what is legal and what is not, but obviously, it should be set legally. It's probably a fairly arbitrary standard, but they should adhere to it.

Anyone who gets a ticket for running a red light should count themselves lucky that it was just a ticket and not a crash.... and make a mental note to be more careful in the future.

Tom Wilkinson
04-16-2008, 08:42 PM
I don't know who sets the standard for what is legal and what is not, but obviously, it should be set legally. It's probably a fairly arbitrary standard, but they should adhere to it.



Good, thanks, that's what the thread was about.

I would imagine that the "legal" timing is based upon average reaction times, speed limits etc and there is some science that backs it up. I highly doubt it is an arbitrary number.



Anyone who gets a ticket for running a red light should count themselves lucky that it was just a ticket and not a crash.... and make a mental note to be more careful in the future.
Even if that ticket was obtained by the state illegally setting the yellow timing? Get real.

Maybe we should illegally calibrate all the state radar detectors too so the cops can give tickets to people who are actually obeying the speed limit and tell them to just drive slower "just in case".

Phillip Allen
04-16-2008, 08:51 PM
drive slower seems to be ill-jay's position (slower than what, we wonders)...it ain't the government's fault no matter what. I wonder how he reconciles that with his complaints of our current administration ...it's not the government who killed those people...it's their faullt for arriving at the impact point...what a fraud!

"That's about the fifth time you've mis-stated my position. You are very dishonest."

speaking of dishonesty...

ljb5
04-16-2008, 10:48 PM
I would imagine that the "legal" timing is based upon average reaction times, speed limits etc and there is some science that backs it up. I highly doubt it is an arbitrary number.

Maybe. Maybe not.


Even if that ticket was obtained by the state illegally setting the yellow timing? Get real.

I already answered that question several times. The amber timing should not be below the legal limit.

When you drive, you are required to react to a very large number of situations.... most of which do not have a legally defined minimum reaction time.

If a little kid runs into the street in front of you, you cannot appeal on the grounds that he didn't give you a five second warning.

You might have nightmares for the rest of your life about the little kid you ran over.... and no amount of whining about legally defined minimum reaction time will alleviate that pain for you or his mother.

Life is tough. Suck it up and be cautious.

Lew Barrett
04-16-2008, 11:04 PM
But as it happens, the yellow duration is codified, starting at 3 seconds for 25 MPH and going to a maximum of 6 seconds for lights in 50 MPH zones. Each state may select it's own durations using broadly defined Federal guidelines. Circular yellow and yellow arrow durations are scaled to speeds. What the cities have been doing is re-scaling durations on faster roads down to the minimum 3 second duration. A difference in scaling is generally required for each 5MPH interval. The general guidelines are available here:

http://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/HTM/2003r1/part4/part4d.htm#section4D10

Individual state guidelines can be obtained simply by Googling duration requirements for a given state.

MiddleAgesMan
04-17-2008, 06:34 AM
With help from a video camera I timed yellow intervals at 8 or 10 sites around Savannah. In the historic district where the speed limit is 25 the yellow interval was 4 seconds. At the intersection where the first camera was set up--where the speed limit is 45--the yellow interval is the same 4 seconds. But for the turn lanes at that same intersection (the one that got me) the yellow interval is 3 seconds. Arguing the point with our head traffic engineer got me no where because regardless of the 45mph speed limit a 24 hour survey showed average speed through that left turn light was 24 mph. It didn't matter that average speeds are skewed due to high traffic during daylight hours when traffic moves through at a crawl. I was caught around 11PM when there was almost no traffic. Photo evidence indicated I was doing 29mph--I would have guessed faster.

S.V. Airlie
04-17-2008, 06:50 AM
One interesting point that no one seems to have mentioned is the car behind you.. Okay, say you put the brakes on hard because you know the amber is gonna turn to red in 2 sec. What about the guy/gal behind you? Can you know for sure that he will react accordingly?

MiddleAgesMan
04-17-2008, 07:03 AM
If that guy behind you is on his toes and his car is in good shape and the pavement is dry he might be able to stop, too. What worries me is the 80,000lb big rig that will be there in your mirror sooner or later.

S.V. Airlie
04-17-2008, 07:07 AM
If that guy behind you is on his toes and his car is in good shape and the pavement is dry he might be able to stop, too. What worries me is the 80,000lb big rig that will be there in your mirror sooner or later.

Ya forgot cell hones..

I was at a RED at the junction ofRTE 50 and umm, 213 in MD.. Minding my own business..
Until someone on a cell phone ran up my but.. Now I was stopped, my lights were working. Can you imagine if I had put the brakes on at an AMBER light..?

No one can anticipate what the guy behind you is gonna do. He/she should be paying attention, but there is coffee to drink, a soda to drink, a big mac to unwrap.

Tom Wilkinson
04-17-2008, 07:40 AM
Maybe. Maybe not.



I already answered that question several times. The amber timing should not be below the legal limit.

When you drive, you are required to react to a very large number of situations.... most of which do not have a legally defined minimum reaction time.

If a little kid runs into the street in front of you, you cannot appeal on the grounds that he didn't give you a five second warning.

You might have nightmares for the rest of your life about the little kid you ran over.... and no amount of whining about legally defined minimum reaction time will alleviate that pain for you or his mother.

Life is tough. Suck it up and be cautious.

I still don't understand what any of your arguments have to do with the topic of the thread. Municipalities are lowering the timing to BELOW THE LEGAL LIMIT.

Of course you have to react to different situations. The question is whether the state should be able to ticket you based their own illegal actions. Everything else you are bringing to the discusiion is nothing but noise.

Phillip Allen
04-17-2008, 07:41 AM
The question remains, what to do with cities that manipulate lilght timming in order to collect more revenue...as ill-jau would gleefully point out, clearly a violation of ethic (as long as it is not democrats doing the cheating...they get special dispensation)

Phillip Allen
04-17-2008, 07:45 AM
Tom, he has tried with some success to direct our attention away from overlord ship of government...this is what he looks forward to...being part of a totalitarian regime where he gets to be the minister of propaganda and wear a dirk

S.V. Airlie
04-17-2008, 07:47 AM
The question remains, what to do with cities that manipulate lilght timming in order to collect more revenue...as ill-jau would gleefully point out, clearly a violation of ethic (as long as it is not democrats doing the cheating...they get special dispensation)

Phillip, I suspect most of them ( Democrats of lil Rush's standing/position ) are in the back seat. In his case, probably in a child's seat.

Bottom line, if the local gov. lowers the delay for an Amber light, it's gonna cause a lot more accidents.. Especially for the locals as they will learn that the delay between the lights have been lowered being hit by nonlocals (tourists) passing through and have no idea.
Of course lil Rush, being among other things, a fireman and an EMT, will argue.

Tom Wilkinson
04-17-2008, 08:17 AM
Of course lil Rush, being among other things, a fireman and an EMT, will argue.

You would think in that case he would favor longer yellow timing as it would promote a higher safety rate.

I wonder if I'll get to hear the driver responsibility speach again. That'll be fun.

High C
04-17-2008, 08:27 AM
I still don't understand what any of your arguments have to do with the topic...Everything else you are bringing to the discusiion is nothing but noise.

That's how he debates. He brings up noise that is barely related to the topic, argues the noise, declares himself correct and competent, and all others ignorant boobs.

Congrats for joining the long list of members who see through his transparent charade!

If only folks would stop taking the bait; don't argue with him over the noise...i.e. DON'T FEED THE TROLL! ;)

Phillip Allen
04-17-2008, 08:34 AM
I'm guilty this time...I was in the mood to hold his feet to the fire a little...his friends who supported him in the past have been embarrased into silence by him. Heck, I even told him several times over the past few years that he was more useful to the Republicans for looking like a fool of a democrat and claiming to represent them

Phillip Allen
04-17-2008, 08:43 AM
If you guys want me to stop, I will...I was just calling him on his lies

ljb5
04-17-2008, 09:06 AM
I still don't understand what any of your arguments have to do with the topic of the thread. Municipalities are lowering the timing to BELOW THE LEGAL LIMIT.

From my point of view,the topic was resolved about 140 posts ago. I said what I had to say about yellow timing back in post #2 and post #21.

If the timing is set wrong, the correct thing to do is reset it. End of discussion.

Not really that hard to figure out. I'm not sure why you whiners need to spend a couple of days belly-aching over that point which seems pretty friggin' obvious.

That doesn't make me a "liar," nor does it make me a Communist nor a Fascist.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

On a separate point, Jamie asked what should be done about people on cell phones. The obvious answer, of course, is to give them tickets for driving while talking on the cell phone so that they understand not to do that.

Of course, that's probably what Pol Pot would do so you cry babies are probably going to want to spend the next three days calling me names for that one too..... :rolleyes:

Tom Wilkinson
04-17-2008, 09:43 AM
From my point of view,the topic was resolved about 140 posts ago. I said what I had to say about yellow timing back in post #2 and post #21.

If the timing is set wrong, the correct thing to do is reset it. End of discussion.


You can beleive that's what you said if you like but the reality is that you said that ultimately the responsibility lies with the driver.


Of course, they shouldn't be decreasing the amber time below the legal limit.... but you gotta recognize that the ultimate responsibility lies with the person driving the car.

and


Absolutely. The responsibility for driving the car lies with the person behind the wheel.

If you're worried about getting a ticket, drive more carefully!

No one can be expected to anticipate a lower than legal yellow time. It's a money grab, plain and simple.

I'm done.

Phillip Allen
04-17-2008, 12:10 PM
well if we are to ignore corruption at traffic signals...at what point did Ill-jay begin to support Cheney?

S.V. Airlie
04-17-2008, 03:40 PM
little Rush doesn't care.. His wife is doing the driving and she gets the ticket: Not him.. It's all her fault!!!