House Paint-Flat

[Dan Cavins]

Hey folks. I read with interest Doug Hylan's article in issue #170 on the virtues of flat paint. This may be a good fit for my "work yacht" sharpie, an NIS 23'. Hylan recommends considering quality alkyd enamel house paint, Sherwin-Williams for him. My question: who has tried this and what do you think? For hull and topside. Thanks, Dan.

[Ian McColgin]

I use a good exterior latex for Grana, inspired by Spaulding Dunbar who began using latex back in the '60's.

It's hard, tough, cheap, and very easy to apply.

It scuffs easily - the paint job is good for a season, not more. On the other hand, it's so cheap and easy, why not?

On a larger boat, like Grana, using a flat or semi gloss, a nice job is accomplished by simply rolling it on with a low nap roller. (Brush on around the trim and ports, etc first, leaving the tape in place till after the rolling.) The little ripple gives a pleasing depth to the hull. If you like, however, it's easy to bush out dead flat.

Grana is 55' on deck and the topsides average 5' - 6' so the total area to cover is over 600 sq ft. It takes me about 6 hours to properly prep this area if there are no major repairs to make. You know, sanding and fairing out the dings of careless dingheys or launch operators etc. The next day I tape and brush paint the boundries where needed. The tape at the boot and similarly big places don't need trim painting, but around portholes and some fussy spots at the rubrail and whiskers do. This takes a bit over two hours. Getting the tape on the boot is the fussiest and most important part. Then I place a beer at the stern and with one beer in hand, I start rolling. The beer at the stern is about where the first will run out and that carries me right up the other side. Two beers and a bit over 90 minutes later, she looks good.

Whatever floats . . .

G'luck

[ 03-25-2003, 10:40 AM: Message edited by: Ian McColgin ]

[John Bell]

I've done it with both alkyd and latex porch paints on my little hack-n-whack boats. The alkyd seems to hold up better, but the latex gets my vote. My little sharpie is painted with a satin latx porch paint right now. When I repaint next year, I'll go with a semigloss instead. They satin and flat paints tend to hold dirt more than a glossier paint.

Is it right? Is it the best way? Probably not, but it works for me. I enjoy my boat just as much as the next guy, brush marks or no. ;)

[Rosebud]

We used to use Dutch Boy oil based exterior primer as a primer for below the waterline for a few years when red lead was hard to get. No Problems.

Seems like oil based enamel house paint would work fine on topsides and cabin. We have not tried latex and probably wouldn't.

Good Luck.

[Wild Wassa]

Are you sure ? I pay $250 dollars for 4.45 lts of marine poly. House paints can be as cheap as $35 for an equivalent quantity.

They are good for a year or two the house paints, where as the Marines are good for a lot longer. All I do is other people’s old boats.

Under no circumstances would I use house paint on my boat. Let's not pretend on this one.

My own boat has 40 year old polyurethane on her hull, the original. All the redoes, from her two previous owners (who I contacted), have been house paints after the repairs, I'm fixing rot like crazy under the house paints , as I'm rebuilding my boat. The Polyurethane is still extremely good. It surprises me at how sound her polyurethane foundation is. I'm completely stripping the boat at the moment and it's very easy to distinguish the poly from the house acrylic or enamel paints.

Where the house paint was painted on top of the polyurethane the polyurethane has broken down after only a few years. The sound poly I'm struggling to remove, that's how good it is.

Where the house paint was painted on it's rotten. It just is too porous.

House paint is the cheapest paint a painter can buy. Even if you buy expensive stuff. Too brittle and cracks too readilly. Too gritty as well, and lots of artifacts in the paint.

Warren.

ps, On a plastic boat, anything will do.

[ 03-26-2003, 06:54 AM: Message edited by: Wild Wassa ]

[Ian McColgin]

Before I bought her, Grana had been very competantly allgripped. Beautiful job for beaucoup hours and beaucoup bucks. It held up looking excellent for 5 years and pretty good for another 3 years. I started painting after it was 8 years old. Comparing cost and labor, that sterling finish needed to last over 15 years to be more cost effective than annual housepainting.

Traditional finishes last a year or two at best. I always used Kirby's on Goblin for the years I had her - seem to last a year the way I sail. For Goblin's looks, even though Kirby's is somewhat more expensive than exterior latex, it was better looking in the extreemly dark green I was mixing. Had I been painting Goblin white, the decision might have been different.

On Il Pipi, the Thistle who will be finished bright, I'm going CPES with real varnish over. For her mast, however, just varnish.

It all depends on the look and use of the boat and just how much of an anal retentive ant#u*k@r you are . . .

[Wild Wassa]

I like the anal retentive comments by non trade painters referring to painters. Worth the laugh always.

The thing that I find fascinating about painting is, if someone is proud of their trade, and tries to achieve a very high level they are called an anal retentive on this site. It is an insult to put down a trade.

But I'm not ever surprised at the loss of the real life of a boat by bad painting by people who don't know the trade.

For those who use the term anal retentive, it would be nice if they knew what the term anal retentive really meant. They would find that when they have to use the term, ...they really are. If 'you can't achieve real quality', don't put a trade down and don't give up, ... just try harder. Ignorant terms, insults the craftsmen as well.

Warren.

[ 03-26-2003, 12:08 PM: Message edited by: Wild Wassa ]

[Ian McColgin]

WW - Sorry that my lighthearted remarks appear to have hurt you. As it happenes:

I have the clinical training that I know exactly what anal retentive means, and I know how to tease out the pop generalization.

I have earned my salt both painting and varnishing - I'm good as any. Better than most.

I'm better as a rigger.

I'm what I take to be subjourney level in canvass work, which means I'm better than about 75% of the hackers you see out there and no where near Todd's league.

My woodworking is usually pretty casual and even when it's really well done, I'd call call myself amateur due to the limits of my training.

The remark about ants comes from a very fine Dutch shipwright who, well in his cups, said,
"In Holland they have a name for men like you and me . . . they call us ant *u&k#r^."

Note to Ian the Right - I embrodiered one kedgers' club ant flag for the guy here who really gets one - I'll get around to yours someday soon . . .

Again, WW, sorry if my teasing offended. It's meant to be about free choise, not to denegrate good work.

Pax vobiscum.

[ 03-26-2003, 12:56 PM: Message edited by: Ian McColgin ]

[Ed Nye]

Warren,
I didn't take Ian's comments to reflect on "trade" workers. If I were paying you to do the work nothing but great workmanship would do and good materials would be specified.
If on the other hand, I was doing it myself, the extra work it would take me to reach your "regular" level of excellence might just put me into the rententive catagory. And I guess I am retentive. The amount of work it takes me to get a yacht-level yard finish is nuts. From 50 ft away it all looks about the same. I think that is what Warren was saying.
Ed

[Scott Rosen]

I don't think Ian meant to offend.

I really love a good paint job. To me it's one of the satisfactions of owning a wooden boat that I can paint her every year. That's why I use only the best products I can find. Part of the joy of wooden boats is their beauty and the signs of loving care by their owners. A good paint job is a big part of that.

[Dave Hadfield]

I did the deed and painted Drake's topside with latex. She only has one season since, but looks great. (40'-- 50 years old.)

WW, I know this will extract highly punctuated words from you, but Drake has never had a high-gloss hull, and probably shouldn't have. Her soft, cypress planks are much dinged and thin enough as it is.

I expect it to peel in time, but the previous stuff, a polyurethane enamel also peeled, so I don't see how I'm much further behind.

The point is, I put my money where my mouth is, the paint looks good so far, no adverse effects are detectable, and I am engaged on this selfless experiment solely for the common good and for the noble gathering of information on behalf of the wooden boat community at large. (!) I shall continue to report....

[ 03-27-2003, 09:16 PM: Message edited by: Dave Hadfield ]

[Tom Lathrop]

I've yet to see a finish material that did not have drawbacks. The search for the perfect finish for furniture and boats goes on and on.

Have to admit that I don't see the attraction of latex paint for a boat though. Painting every year is my version of tortue to be avoided by any means. Latex does scuff and show marks easily and, to me never looks good more than a few weeks after it is put on if the boat gets much use.

In the attempt to get away from the expense and trouble of using LPU paints, I've settled on plain old two part epoxy paint for some work. I use a Devoe (Glidden) product intended for industrial use on bridges, water tanks, etc that is far tougher than any of the house paints and costs very little, if any, more. It does chalk some, but not as much as latex and lasts and lasts. did I mention that it is tough. It is listed as chemically resistant so it's not harmed by any of the things we see on a boat.

The above is personal experience or opinion and not intended to offend anyone for any reason, real, implied or imagined. :D

[Ian McColgin]

One of the real pleasures of painting with latex, especially a flat white, is that in-water repairs are really easy.

A couple of years back the kids racing their Beetle cats blasted through the moorage and a couple of them got into a right of way arguement which was resolved when one just plain rammed Granna bow on T-boned. Not only did the little twit put a gouge in the topsides with his stem fitting, but he scored her for about 20'.

My chief satisfaction was that the bang did crumple up his bow a bit, dislodged the stem head, and sprung the shere planks. Vengence is sweet.

In any event, I faired out the gouge and stuck in a shallow dutchman. Cleaned out the gouge and put in a bit of epoxy filler. Taped a nice boundry and sanded to the tape. And put on some paint.

As I was sitting in the dink painting, a member of our local irish american family sailed by and told me that i couldn't do that. Taking a page from Dunbar, I cleaned my brush in the salt water as I replied, "Watch this."

You could see the repair from closer than 3'. Further off than that and it was invisible.

[paul oman]

One of my epoxy suppliers (we sell epoxies) worked for major paint companies for decades as a production manager. He's told me how they would make 10,000 gallon batchs (or some such huge number) - pour out a lot of it in 5 gal pails for industrial contractors, pour out some in gallons for 'home owners' and then the remaining in quarts, etc. for the boating public. Same paint (don't know what kind - I assume an enamel) - same batch, dirt cheap to extra pricey depending upon the packaging and marketing....

I pass this along for what it is worth..

Paul Oman - progressive epoxy polymers
www.epoxyproducts.com/marine.html (http://www.epoxyproducts.com/marine.html)

[NormMessinger]

Oh, dear. I just ordered anouther quart of Kirby Paint. I wonder where he gets his base.

Regarding latex paint: When we were doing a major restoration on the outside of the Old Courthouse in St. Louis, the specialists from our (National Park Service) Denver Service center that were writing the specifications called in chemists from the "danged if I can remember" paint company to advise. We were painting stone not boats but still... The chemist was extoling the virutes of water based paint so I asked him why they continued to make oil paints. His answer is reflected in the discussion above.

Which is not to say that I'm using latex house paint on Prairie Islander. Hey, I can be conservitive and old fashioned, too.

[Tom Lathrop]

Paul,

I'm sure that you are correct about the pricing and marketing of paint. Pretty much the same thing is true of lots of materials. One thing that I watch for in exterior boat paints though is whether it can tolerate constant immersion in water.

[David N.]

My trade allow's me to work in a number of different Mfg. type company's , with that said . I can assure you having worked at the xyz plant ( the plant covers 15 acres ) the same paint is labeled for different consumers . And yes some of the bigger batches are in the 10,000 gal. range , We cooked Varnish in 2,000 gal. batch's . At any one time we had 5+ million gal's ( paint , thinner's etc. ) on hand .
The one benifit for me was , after a couple years of working there , I no longer suffered from " hay fever " .

I like to paint , it is for me a nice break , so I paint boat's , cars , houses and am just putting the finish touches on some aircraft part's . Bear with me , in the past I have found that oil based paint works best on wood , and the reason is wood need's the oil , whereas a latex paint will just sit on the surface , and has no oil to penetrate and give a good adhesive barrier coat .

Nor have I ever found a latex that will allow me to sand " fair " the surface . And regarding flat vs gloss , it has been my understanding that the higher the gloss , the tougher the finish . The higher gloss will show all the unfairness , so it is alot more demanding as far as prep work goes . I like the satin's and semi-gloss's also they all have their place .

[Dan Cavins]

Gotta' love this boat building thing. Ask ten people, get ten... Sometimes I wish I had the guts to, the hell with it, try anything. On the other hand, she 'aint the Queen Mary but I have put a lot of time and work into her.
Does it make much difference that the hull has been clothed and glassed?
I'll keep thinking and maybe experiment a bit. Thanks for all your insight. More welcome! Thanks, Dan.

[Erie Deerie]

How come my house isn’t falling down, the latex is over 15 years old hmmmmm.