wood filler & stain question

[mrrover]

what kind of wood filler should I use on a 66' century that will take a stain good? what kind of stain any good oil base stain?

[Mrleft8]

The best filler is a slurry of the finish, and wood fibers of the wood to be filled... Do this by applying a seal coat of the finish, and then "wet sand" after the finish is cured. I find sun, and air to be the ultimate stain.

[mrrover]

so mix sanding saw dust with varnish ? what kind of varnish should I use hopefully I can buy at paint store. thanks

[Jay Greer]

If you are seeking to duplicate the color of Honduras Mahogony and have the wood retain the color without suffering UV bleaching an oil based filler stain is the most reliable form of coloring the wood.
The Chris Craft stain color is the one that is most often used. It is obtained by mixing equal parts of red and brown filler stain together.
These stains, originally sold under the Z-Spar label are now available from Pettit. After the wood has been sanded, it should be given one coat of clear acrylic sanding sealer. Acrylic sealer is nothing more than clear automotive lacquer. It should be applied with a good brush that will allow smooth coverage. This will seal the grain and prevent the filler stain from muddying the surface. Once dry it does not need to be sanded, if it was applied water thin. The filler stain should be thinned with #10 thinner or turpentine to the consistancy of buttermilk and applied quickly with an old badger bristle brush. Allow the stain to turn hazy but not to the point of drying. Then rub the surface with terry cloth or burlap to remove the excess stain. Allow the surface to dry overnight and apply the first coat of varnish which has been thinned ten percent with #11 thinner or turps. Once the first coat has dried to a slight tack, it can then be hot coated with full strength varnish.
I often hot coat during the first stages of a varnish job which allows several coats to be applied in one day. I always sand the third coat with 220 grit paper. The minimum number of coats is usually eight.
Too much varnish can cause the surface to become varnish sick and can lead to blistering.
Another version of filler stain can be made by mixing powdered French Chalk of the color desired with varnish.
Jay
Jay

[Robmill0605]

I'm in the process of doing this now. I use Famowood to fill the small staple holes in the mahogany. It is available in oak, etc.
It takes stain well and will not dry out and shrink in the hole. Mixing sanded dust and glue etc, does not take stain well IMO.

I follow the Don Danenberg method of sealing/varnishing. ( author , HOW TO RESTORE YOUR WOODEN RUNABOUT)The one thing I would differ with Jay is applying a sealer and then stain the hull?
Danenberg advocates sanding the hull, then stain, then seal to prevent muddying the stain using CPES. The acrylic sealer before the stain does not make sense to me.
Why seal the wood before staining?
IMO, the object here is to seal the stain, before intoducing varnish not the sanded hull. But to each his own, as varnished methods are personal preferences, and sure to start a debate.

[Robmill0605]

One of the main reasons Danenberg advocates sealing the stain is to avoid intoducing solvent in the form of thinned varnish as a medium that could muddy the stain.
Thats why it does not make sense to me.

[Lew Barrett]

My limited experince with using filler stains has been much the same as yours, Rob. One always hastens to add that one disagrees with Jay at one's peril. In any case, my experience is that within reason stain is not fussy except that it is sensitive to having solvents washed over it, and then it will come off on the brush, even if it is well dried.
But, I do so little work these days with filler stains as to probably have been wiser not having posted to this topic! A "Chris Craft" red filler stain is available at most good marine stores or from here:

http://www.classicboathardware.com/restorationsupplies.htm

or here if you prefer Interlux, (Note, they also sell Dannenberg's book).

http://www.classicboatconnection.com/cat4.htm

[AndreasJordahlRhude]

Have you been in touch with the Century Boat Club www.centuryboatclub.org (http://www.centuryboatclub.org) yet? I suggest you do this. Someone probably already knows the correct stain and varnish and wood, etc... No sense reinventing the wheel.

Andreas

[AndreasJordahlRhude]

Oh, use MARINE products. Marine spar varnish. Marine stain. Marine sealer. Forget about your neighborhood hardware store products.

Andreas

[Mrleft8]

so mix sanding saw dust with varnish ?

NO! Ok, I'll explain the process that I use. It might be a little different than what others do, but it's worked for me for close to 30 years.
First I sand down to 320 grit. The first coat of varnish (I use Benjamin Moore 440 spar varnish) should be thinned 1:2 IE: 2 parts turpentine to 1 part varnish, and yes, I use turpentine, not paint thinner. After the varnish is dry, about 24 hours, sand with 320 grit wet dry paper wrapped around a wood block for flat surfaces, or around a foam block for curved surfaces. use water spayed on to the surface with a plant mister as lubricant. This creates a "slurry" of the varnish and minute amounts of wood fibers. Wipe the surface with a dry cotton cloth. Let it dry a half hour or so, and wipe it again, vigorously across the grain with a fresh dry cloth. Apply a second coat of varnish thinned 1:1 and let it dry 24 hours. Repeat the sanding routine. Apply a third coat of unthinned varnish, and let it dry 24 hours. Repeat this as often as you like. I usually stop after 4 coats of unthinned varnish. The Ben Moore seems to build a lot faster than other varnishes. When you're almost satisfied with your build, mist your surface and with a dampened cloth dipped in a container of rottenstone and rub out the surface. This time let it dry completely before rubbing off the slurry. At this point you should have a mirror like surface. Apply one last coat of varnish. The rottenstone should fill any slight pits that were left in the finish.

[Jay Greer]

Here is a bit more input in order to explain the "why" of applying sealer prior to stain. Honduras Mahogony and many other woods have a property that his known as "Chatiosy", a reflective pearl like sheen of the grain. Applying filler stain without first applying sealer to the wood will kill this important quality to the beauty of the finish. Z-Spar made clear acrylic sealer that was water thin out of the can. Unfortunately it has been banned in most states. Clear automotive lacquer that has been thinned with lacquer thinner will be exactly the same. I use a 2 1/2" wide camel hair flow brush for the application.
This insures that an a thin even distribution is achieved. The coating is so thin that no sanding is needed prior to applying stain. Marine filler stains contain pure earth pigments that are not effected by UV exposure.
Many years ago, I found that Famowood, while easy to use and cosmeticaly great for color match, has a maddening habit of absorbing moisture and popping out after a season or two. In the case of filling dings or nail holes, I prefer soft, oil based, seam compound that is close to the color of the wood. A bit of artists oil paint can me mixed in to more closely match the wood if needed. Damaged areas that require a larger fill can be repaired with furniture repair burn in sticks and subsequently false grained if necessary.
Jay

[Eric Hvalsoe]

The original question was about stain. I just applied Z spar Standard Mahogany filler stain 1095 to a 1965 Century Resorter transom - I had replaced this transom two seasons ago, at which point I merely put a few coats of varnish on (time, money issues from the client). In other words I just now stained over a light build up of varnish. The transom is now a nice color match to the rest of the boat. Before brushing varnish over this new stain, I lightly sprayed the transom with a spar urethane product from the big bad store down the street. This prevented the stain from being attacked by solvents and muddied with brushing on the subsequent varnish build up. Much of the rest of the original hull has this muddiness.

In general I like the idea of sealing before stain, though I have gone both ways. Presealing is more important with more open grain woods. It affects the tone, and might get you started off with a richer more amber hue. Filler stain used as described above. I also like the idea of stabilizing the stained surface before brushing. I suppose how much you smear the stain with roller and/or brush has something to do with your technique and just how hot your thinner is, maybe there are products out there I am not as familiar with that will brush over without a problem - in any case be aware of the hazard. Making your own 'filler' by wet sanding is fine, if that is the tone you are aiming for. A filler saves time with varnish build up and is usually applied to add tone. Analine, water based dye is a whole 'nother department, and tends to fade under UV. I've never really seen the point of taking bare wood to 320 or higher before stain or varnish, as long as sanding is done without leaving crossgrain scratches - which the stain will highlight.