I need help with a rot problem. Pics.

[djn]

Hi All, I started sanding the bottom of my boat the last few days and found a bunch of rot and don't know how to proceed. I've got 90% of it scraped out but don't know what to do now. The PO built up the very front V of the boat with epoxy. that is the gray stuff in some of the pictures. Any and all advice is welcome. Cheers.

This shows the rot spots below and above the WL. Effected are the ends of the planks and the bow post (if that is what it is called)
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a60/djnagle/Shady%20Lady/IMG_3002.jpg

Here is a close up of the top portion.
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a60/djnagle/Shady%20Lady/IMG_3000.jpg

And here is a close up of the bottom portion.
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a60/djnagle/Shady%20Lady/IMG_2999.jpg

[Woxbox]

I hate to be the first to say it, but you've got some major rebuilding to do there. It's highly unlikely -- very highly unlikely -- that you've actually pulled out all the bad wood.
Ouch.

[Tom Wilkinson]

That certainly doesn't look good. Was that boat also fiberglassed??

[djn]

Hi Tom, when the PO rebuilt the boat back in '72 he painted it with epoxy first then boat paint. Cheers.

[Tom Wilkinson]

I think you need to get a surveyor out to have a look and recommend a course of action. There is bound to be more than what you have found. From the amount of gray epoxy it appears to have had some serious issues prior to being repainted by the PO.

[lofting4fun]

As stated a survey will need to be conducted,its not the end of the world though... it will be a learning curve for sure ,Does anyone know of a good shipwright/surveyer in his neck of the woods ? You might call and ask http://home.earthlink.net/~havorn/lprofile.html I flew Lee down to LA when I purchased Viator,He specialies in plank on frame and runs a surveyer school in Seattle...he may be able to steer you in the right direction, Regards, James

[Rich VanValkenburg]

Ouch, Dennis. Whatever you do, it's not a good idea to just fill the hole with more plastic. The stem isn't that easy to replace. Ask Ed, Margo, and others that have done it/doing it including myself. If I was 100%, I'd offer myself up to the cause being so close to your location but my wife won't even let me pick up a brick outside yet.

Don't lose hope, and don't excavate any more stuff out of that hole until you have a plan. Best to keep things relatively intact as patterns. How easy is it to get to the bolt ends from inside?

Rich

[djn]

Hi Rich, I can see the complete interior at this point. I'm going back out tomorrow with an ice pick to see how much futher up the bow the 1. fiberglass goes and 2. to see if the rot has shown up on the other side. Sorry to hear you are laid up. I will be out there at 10 tomorrow is you want to stop by for a cup of coffee.....I won't make you work :>) I am in the NorthStar Sailclub parking lot on south river road three miles east of Jefferson. Cheers.

[P.L.Lenihan]

Holy Bananas Batman! Stop digging away with a pick axe, tout suit, and start by sanding off the paint/primer/fiberglass etc along the stem to actually see what condition the wood is in first. Crawl inside the boat,up to the fore peak, and check out what is left of the stem after the PO did his "repair" job. Making a new stem is not a job that is too hard to do,IF YOU KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING and have a pattern.Absolute attention to details and precise bevels is minimum requirement.
You must decide what your intentions are for your boat. A new stem or some sort of composite/hybrid epoxy glass affair.
If a new stem,stop destroying the plank hood ends as these will be usefull for pattern making by the lucky boatwright who gets this job.....

Gotta run,supper is ready but listen for some good advice here before further destroying your boat. It can be saved :)


Peter

[djn]

Hi Peter, we stopped digging today so we would be freash in the morning with a sander to do exactly what you suggest. I'll get the paint off and see what we have. I'll post pics tomorrow. Cheers.

[Kaa]

Doesn't look too good. You may want to double-check other structural elements of the boat. If the previous owner had a habit of dealing with rot by throwing some epoxy in and then painting it over, your bow may turn out to be not the only boat's problem.

Kaa

[Capt. Mike]

you all are making to big of a deal of this. just use some west with a past and you will be ok for years. it will be stronger then wood and never rot. if in ten to twenty years you have to cut it all out and replace all the wood then so be it but until then repair it and go to other things. I bet you will never have to touch it again.

www.bigwoodboat.com

[sawcutmill]

"
you all are making to big of a deal of this. just use some west with a past and you will be ok for years. it will be stronger then wood and never rot. if in ten to twenty years you have to cut it all out and replace all the wood then so be it but until then repair it and go to other things. I bet you will never have to touch it again."

Whatever you do, dont do this!wont last a season with a bandaid fix like the above mentioned seems to think! remember that not all advice is good advice.......good luck!

[kc8pql]

you all are making to big of a deal of this. just use some west with a past and you will be ok for years. it will be stronger then wood and never rot. if in ten to twenty years you have to cut it all out and replace all the wood then so be it but until then repair it and go to other things. I bet you will never have to touch it again.

That's the kind of advice that got you where you are now.

[katiedobe]

This is a great teaching moment!!!
Welcome to Capt. Mike, a new comer to this forum who owns a Big Wood boat and is committed to rebuilding it and steaming it over 14,000 miles. He came here to us to do what all of us do, learn, and this is our opportunity to teach him and others. I don't want to alienate Capt. Mike. I visited his website and he is comitted to saving a wood boat. He just needs to learn a bit about wood boats and why the fix he proposes would not be a good idea.

Capt. Mike, I can see by your number of posts that you are new to this forum. I don't know how much experience you have with wooden boats, construction of or repair of but I am going to assume that it is pretty limited.
There are many reasons why what you suggest is not valid.
One is due to wood movement that is inherent in plank on frame solid wood boats. The epoxy does not flex and the rest of the wood around it will flex. Eventually the connection points of wood to epoxy will fail. Resulting in water intrusion.

Two is that there is a great possibility that you will trap more water within the surrounding wood and the epoxy will not allow it to dry out. Water trapped within wood will cause rot.

There are more reasons why it is not a good suggestion I hope that others here will help explain why.

[pcford]

you all are making to big of a deal of this. just use some west with a past and you will be ok for years. it will be stronger then wood and never rot.

www.bigwoodboat.com (http://www.bigwoodboat.com)

Ah, a Pacemaker.

Must......not.......make.......comments.....about. ...Pacemakers.....
and....rot.

[SchoonerRat]

There are many excellent products available to those of us who maintain and repair old wooden boats. West resin is one of the best, but it's not a replacement for wood. Don't use epoxy to manufacture replacement timbers, there is a better source.

[pcford]

There are many excellent products available to those of us who maintain and repair old wooden boats. West resin is one of the best, but it's not a replacement for wood. Don't use epoxy to manufacture replacement timbers, there is a better source.

Yes. Trees.

[jackster]

Ah, a Pacemaker.

Must......not.......make.......comments.....about. ...Pacemakers.....
and....rot.

Pithy! and yet restrained.

[Lew Barrett]

Well said Jimmy. I think Cap'n Mike is an experienced woodworker who will benefit from some of the advice given by the elder shipwrights and builders on the forum, as we all have.
Techniques and experience in carpentry and cabinet making are an invaluable benefit when attacking a wooden boat, but boat building practices and material selection are different than other aspects of wood and construction crafts and trades. For instance, the short planks on the transom of Mike's Pacemaker might be acceptable in siding a house, but would not be considered kosher on a boat, where full length transom planks are the minimum that would be considered.
Welcome to the forum Mike, I'm sure this can be a good exchange that works both ways.

[djn]

Hi All, I took some advice given in this thread last night and went out to the boat today and sanded all the paint off around the area and on the other side of the bow as well. The other side is not as bad, but there is punk there as well. The boat is sitting in our club's parking lot and the crane will be there on April 26th to put all the boats back in the water.....needles to say, my boat will probably be sat on a truck and shipped to a yard. I found a local guy (club member actually) that is a third generation shipwright and he is going to inspect the boat this coming week and give me an estimate. We'll see!!! Either it is reasonable and I have it do it, or it will be beyond my budget and I will, very slowly and causously, do it myself over the summer. Cheers.

[Eric Hvalsoe]

In fairness to the '3rd generation' shipwiright (is that more expensive than a 2nd generation?), you might have to adjust your concept of 'reasonable'. You are looking at No 1 - replacing the stem or a major portion thereof . . . with wood . . . No 2 - replacing the skin, one hopes including all the affected area and a little beyond.

In fact the first thing you ought to do is figure out how this damage came about in the first place. This has been cooking away for a some time. Why? What happened? How are you going to prevent it from happening again? Good Luck.

[djn]

Hi All, Just got off the phone with the repair guy. To move the boat to his shop, cut all the effected wood back, remove the interior bulkheads, replace the Keelson, replace the bulkheads, scarf in new planking, form and repaint, and launch the boat......$7,000.00. I went to his shop and it looks like an operating room.

[djn]

Hi Eric, I don't think it is more expensive, but Gary has been rebuilding wood boats in the Great Lakes area since he was 10. So it goes more to experience than $$$. And, yep, that is my new task: what caused the problem in the first place. Cheers.

[Eric Hvalsoe]

DJN,
No disrespect intended, just thought I'd throw in a couple of cut up lines. The prescription sounds perfectly logical, $7000 sounds very reasonable to me, speaking from over here in the Seattle area. In fact, if your man was not well established, I would not put a lot of faith in the $7000 - maybe this fellow is on the mark. If so, my complements. Of course you know, things happen.
Bottoms Up,
Eric

[pcford]

Hi All, Just got off the phone with the repair guy. To move the boat to his shop, cut all the effected wood back, remove the interior bulkheads, replace the Keelson, replace the bulkheads, scarf in new planking, form and repaint, and launch the boat......$7,000.00. I went to his shop and it looks like an operating room.

If the guy can promise to fix this problem for $7k, you should sign a contract today.

Nobody around here would bid a rot job; I think you would pay far more than $7k to repair rot which is as extensive as it appears to be.

[SchoonerRat]

Hi Eric, I don't think it is more expensive, but Gary has been rebuilding wood boats in the Great Lakes area since he was 10. So it goes more to experience than $$$. And, yep, that is my new task: what caused the problem in the first place. Cheers.
Sounds like you found a savior. I don't think you could do it yourself for much less. He has the shop, the tools, the knowledge, the experience,....

You'll get your $7,000 worth the first time you hang some rags on her.

Good luck!

[jackster]

djn,
Happy to here you have a plan and repair person, you didn't mention anything about the stem/forefoot problem. Is that included in the estimate?

[pcford]

Hi Eric, I don't think it is more expensive, but Gary has been rebuilding wood boats in the Great Lakes area since he was 10. So it goes more to experience than $$$. And, yep, that is my new task: what caused the problem in the first place. Cheers.

Well, I have only been restoring boats since the early 70s, not since I was 10. With apologies to the 10 year old boatbuilder and his successor.....I suspect you will have some surprises down the pike.

But report back when she is done.

[Yeadon]

djn,

I think this could turn out to be a very interesting long term thread if you keep taking photos and posting about it. I'd love to see what the boatwright finds under that skin. I know I'll learn something from it all.

- Tim

[Mike Vogdes]

Its amazing that an epoxy slathered carvel planked boat lasted 35 years before showing decay, is the whole hull epoxy coated? I'm curious if the seams where routed before the epoxy applied. In any event I would maybe get a second opinion or perhaps a survey before parting with any repair money, I would suspect the bilge would have a substantial amount of rot as well. Good luck with what ever you decide, I too would like to see progress photo's if you proceed with the repair.

[pcford]

Its amazing that an epoxy slathered carvel planked boat lasted 35 years before showing decay, is the whole hull epoxy coated? I'm curious if the seams where routed before the epoxy applied. In any event I would maybe get a second opinion or perhaps a survey before parting with any repair money, I would suspect the bilge would have a substantial amount of rot as well. Good luck with what ever you decide, I too would like to see progress photo's if you proceed with the repair.

Isn't it plywood? Dunno.

Once again proving that one can't see much from pictures.

[Gary E]

Another way to look at this is...
Whut ya have now is worth ZIP,,,Nada,,, FIREWOOD
Spend 7 g's and you get a boat....

Best of luck to you

[djn]

Pcford, it is white ceder planked.

Gary, good point...although it WOULD make a heck of a bond fire.

Eric, I know...I am just taking this all too seriously. Cheers.

[djn]

Hi All, I am now thinking about doing this myself with advice/help from others in my area. The thing is, I have no work until the first of March so I am looking at three full weeks to work on this project. I have most of the tools but would like to buy the Fein MultiMaster for close quarters work. I ordered the Stem and frame repair book from Woodboat. So, I may be posting a lot of pictures and asking a lot of questions...but I am excited to do this....owning a wood boat is suppose to be about learning, Right? Cheers.

[Mike Vogdes]

I figure you mean the first of May, however the first of March would probably be a better time frame for a repair like that, especially someone who as never tackled a project of this magnitude..

[djn]

Yep Mike, first of May. I am hearing that (long project time) for many quarters. I most be missing something. If I can dedicate 5 12 hour days for three weeks, that seems like enough time....but like I said, I am probably not seeing something. Cheers.

[RGM]

Hello djn,
The situation looks grave. Before you step any deeper into this repair/restoration project you really should hunt down a reputable wood boat surveyor in your area and hire him to do a very detailed survey focusing on the hull, all structual members including shelf and/or clamp, deck edge, covering boards, deck seams/joints. If I were looking at the boat I would take a quick look at the stem area and stem head and say "Yep, that's really screwed up" then quickly move on to the aft end of the boat, start surveying there and work my way forward.
Good luck with this. This is a tough one to cut your teeth on. I would proceed very carefully.

[MiddleAgesMan]

There isn't a whole lot a first-timer can do with this sort of repair in three weeks, IMO. The surveyor is a good suggestion but if your repair guy comes highly recommended I would tell him to get busy and fork over the $7000. Let him count the dollars while you are counting your blessings.

[Lew Barrett]

I've hesitated to weigh in here because I believe the accurate advice has already been given and reiterated several times, but oh well.
True enough MAM, meaning three weeks won't get very far, but the further point is that even if DJM contracts to repair the stem and planking for $7,000, there's the potential that the work will expand. Something untoward has been done here. A carvel planked boat has been encased. We (the usual yentas) always caution about this as a potentially disasterous strategy. What is being said is that one could spend the money and get the stem fixed, and find that it's only the beginning. A complete examination of the entire structure is in order. Pat Ford said it much more briefly, as did Mike and now one of the forum surveyors has weighed in. It looks like it could be a real can of worms. Best to determine the full scope of work up front. An experienced shipwright will know that the work is likely to expand once the box is opened, by the way.
There could be much, much more, in which case another decision has to be made.

[C. Ross]

djn
I had a similar situation. Surveyor said garboards were punky. Highly reputable shipwright gave me a modest bid, and he recommended pulling off a plank just above the chine which was soft.

Well. Ten planks, four sistered ribs, and new chine logs port and starboard later, I have a sound bottom. No unnecessary work, and I'm happy with it, but it didn't turn out as expected.

You probably have much more experience than me. My carpentry was framing, trim, and cabinetry. I watched my repair very carefully and now I might replace a plank or two next time I need to. But a plank is mostly square with a few bevels. No way would I take on something as complicated as a stem replacement -- the geometry is daunting and I was mighty impressed by the tricks of the trade the shipwrights used, even on matters that looked like trivial little bitty things.

Your mileage may vary, but personally I'd save my sweat equity for something else, and not such a highly specialized repair

Good luck and hope she turns out beautifully!

[SchoonerRat]

I consider myself a fairly decent wood butcher. Repairing the visibly evident damage is a task I would consider daunting. Nothing on a boat is square. Up in the stem you have compound angles, and a cornucopia of fitting problems. You'll be amazed at how long it takes to get a decent fit, and a decent fit is not good enough. I'm afraid that 3 weeks would give you just about enough time to turn a $7,000 job into a $14,000 job. And then you'd have to deal with whatever other problems turn up.

An old buddy of mine once hauled his Kettenburg 38 for some restoration work. Stripping, painting, a couple of cracked ribs. After years of working his butt off every weekend, he lost his boat to mounting yard fees. Listen carefully to those here who are wiser than I. Save your boat.

[pcford]

Hello djn,
The situation looks grave. Before you step any deeper into this repair/restoration project you really should hunt down a reputable wood boat surveyor in your area and hire him to do a very detailed survey focusing on the hull, all structual members including shelf and/or clamp, deck edge, covering boards, deck seams/joints. If I were looking at the boat I would take a quick look at the stem area and stem head and say "Yep, that's really screwed up" then quickly move on to the aft end of the boat, start surveying there and work my way forward.
Good luck with this. This is a tough one to cut your teeth on. I would proceed very carefully.

The oriiginal poster would be well advised to consider carefully the advice that Roger is giving. He is a respected professional in the field. And not a wiseguy like me.

You will note that the posters that have advised caution are those with more experience in this sort of thing.

You should have it surveyed....have a professional do the work....and be prepared to spend more than 7k.

Good luck.

[P.L.Lenihan]

Hi DJN,
The deal from the boatwright sorta sounds alright but I have to ask,what is his hourly rate? At $30.00/hr,40 hours weeks,that looks close to a 5 week job. Is this what he expects the job to take? Also, not sure why he quoted you that price to include,"remove interior bulkheads,replace keelson,replace bulkheads".
For now, it is the stem that needs replacing.The keelson is a whole bigger and different job......unless that and your bulkheads are gone too?:(

Your boat was bought on the Great Lakes,if I recall. Was it always freshwater sailed? The rot you appear to have looks like many I've seen where rainwater has leached,then leaked, down through the deck around the many fittings typically found crowded there, and from a few other sources as well,like the deck and breasthook up foreward. It is particularly tough when water soaks in all summer long, then is frozen over the cold Northern winters,expanding ever so slighly the space it inhabits.Come the following year, rainwater has that much more space to seep into,and later freeze(expand) yet still more. A terrible cycle actually made even worse by poor ventilation of the forepeak and clogged limber holes.
Have you any experience pattern making? That is going to be the best skill you will need if you are to replicate what is left of your stem. You may wish to leave this to a more experienced person like your boatwright, as others have stated.
If you trust this boatwright and have good references from others who have used his services, then you just might be able to work up a "treatment plan" for your boat. That is, schedule over a number of seasons work to be done by order of importance. If done right, you will not lose any sailing time as the work should be scheduled over the winter months in his shop.And yes,there are stop gap measures that can be used to keep it all together between restoration"project steps".

However, as I mentioned in my earlier post, alot depends on what your long term vision or goals are for your boat.Your wallet too is going to want to have a vote in this matter as well :) Stretching out the work over several seasons can some times trick the wallet long enough for you,the lucky owner, to not get bittin too hard :)

Looking forward to progress pictures!

Good Luck with her,she's a beauty!

Peter

[djn]

Thanks all for your sage advice. It is funny how things work out. Yesterday I did not have an extra $7,000.00 laying around and did not have any work lined up for a whole month. This morning, I just got a job that will work me long hours through out the month, so now I have no time to deal with this.....So now my plan is to have Gary do the work(what ever it ends up being), and be there as much as I can to learn from him. I will take lots of pics as he progresses and post them here. Thanks again for all the good advice. I think I would like to find a rotted 12' sailboat and do my learning on that while sailing Shady Lady. Cheers.

[StevenBauer]

I hadn't chimed in here yet as those pics had me a little freaked out. :eek: If I saw that on my boat I'd be plenty sad as it would be a season ending proposition for me. 7 $thou is many times my boating budget for the year. I'd end up doing it myself and I could see it taking the whole season. Sounds like you have a plan, that's good, though I don't recall hearing you say anything about a full survey. A very complete full survey is in order here. Who knows what else the previous owner covered up before the sale. :(


Steven

[Mike Vogdes]

As much as I would like to see a project undertaken such as this I would agree a survey would be your best starting place.

[Peter Malcolm Jardine]

An old wooden boat with some rot. Just imagine.

Good luck DJN, the survey advice is good advice... 400 dollars to tell you whether to spent 7k ...10k.. etc.

Epoxy encapsulated wooden boat.... (spine shivers)

[djn]

Hi All, I agree with the survey. Part of Gary's starting point is to do a survey so we know exactly what we are dealing with. If been through the entire boat, since this happened, with an awl and only found one other plank that was soft and I could also get to it from the inside of the boat and all the ribs and planks around it are solid. This plank is only 7" long and Gary agreed to walk me through the process and I will replace it.....got to get some learning out of the deal, right? Cheers.

[P.L.Lenihan]

This plank is only 7" long .

7" long?! That's not a plank djn, that's a butt block :)

Sorry...couldn't resist!

Peter