How far should I go?

[Duncan Gibbs]

Well, I've had another chance to work on the Mighty Pippin again, and I think I've managed to cut out most of the major parts of rot, and now only a few smaller areas remain. But now I need to know if I should take it further and make the patching up more contiguous or whether this would affect the structural integrity of the boat?

My first instinct is to cut away most of the starbord sheer and the prow above deck completely and run a long scarf along the deck edge, as well as totally replace the gunnel and inwhale on both sides.

Should I cut away all the sheer and replace it completely?

Here's what it looks like so far...

Overall:

http://pic80.picturetrail.com/VOL1913/10058894/19307885/309591822.jpg

The prow and fore of the starbord sheer. Note that I had to take off the piece of wood (not sure of its name) that held the painter's D ring on the outside and the forestay D ring on the inside. It was also rotten underneath but this took away a layer of the ply. Should I reinforce this with a piece of ply which is a slightly larger offset of the same shape before putting another piece on to replace it?

http://pic80.picturetrail.com/VOL1913/10058894/19307885/309591819.jpg

The starbord sheer is quite an odd collection of patchwork shapes:

http://pic80.picturetrail.com/VOL1913/10058894/19307885/309591817.jpg

I've still got a little bit of rot to chase the end of on both the gunnel and inwhale as well as a few spots of rot in the top of the ply, nearly as far as the oarlock. Is it worth keeping any of the gunnel & inwhale?

http://pic80.picturetrail.com/VOL1913/10058894/19307885/309591814.jpg

Work still be done on both sides of the transom: I've a feeling I may be able to get away with little less radical surgury here, but we'll see about that. Maybe tomorrow...

http://pic80.picturetrail.com/VOL1913/10058894/19307885/309591813.jpg

http://pic80.picturetrail.com/VOL1913/10058894/19307885/309591810.jpg

[Jim Ledger]

If it was me doing it, I'd go and buy a few sheets of ply and build a new one alongside the old, using the old for measurements, templates, etc.

More straightforward, and a much better result.

I don't suppose that's what you want to hear, tho....

[StevenBauer]

I was thinking the same thing, Jim. Might be less work overall.


Steven

[katiedobe]

I think you went far enough. Follow Jim's advice. Otherwise you are into a lot of patchwork that will take lots of time. More time than building new.
Good luck.

[JimConlin]

I agree.

[TimH]

yep...start over.

[Jim Ledger]

Thinking a bit more...

If the plans are available, buy them. You'll want the boat built to the class specifications and things like the station molds and building jig are better taken off plans than trying to measure an old boat.

[JimD]

Duncan, I tend to agree with everyone else here. Unfortunately, this is starting to look like an instructive example of what happens when you get a 'good price' on a boat that 'just needs a little rot cut out'.

[TimH]

Or you could just fiberglass it and dip it in robins-egg-blue paint.

[Duncan Gibbs]

Or you could just fiberglass it and dip it in robins-egg-blue paint.:D:D:D

Jim, You're absolutely correct in terms of what I do and don't want to hear.:p

If I was going to build a new S&G boat it would not be the Mirror. Besides you don't just buy plans, but actually rent a template and buy a sail number. OTOH I do actually have this thing and whilst it will never race again I am keen to try and get her ship-shape (somewhat).

The rest of the hull is essentially sound. I would hazzard a guess that she was stored upside down on the ground for some time hence the rot appearing only in the sheer.

So although I appreciate your good advice, you will all have to assume I'm going to be a stubborn bugger about this.

I was thinking about a 1:10 scarf along the deckline which would be able to also be screwed (with small screws) into the side deck shelf, taped on both sides and heavily filleted on the inside.

Will this work?

It think it was Warren who ask me if I'm not afraid of a bit of rot! :D

[The Bigfella]

Bugger the 1:10 scarfs mate. Just butt it together and whack a patch over each side and away you go.....

See, you've got to get the philosophy right. There's a movement afoot with ugly old vehicles - eg VWs - where the idea is to get the mechanicals right, but leave the exterior looking ratty.

Funnily enough, these vehicles are known as rats. Original paintwork is highly valued, especially when polished through to the undercoat. Some go a bit overboard and sand their cars back until they get a bit of surface rust, then they clearcoat them.

So. My vote is to "rat" it. Dirty old sails are a must too.

[Jim Ledger]

:D:D:D

Will this work?



Maybe, if you have low expectations, patience, and enough persistance.

[Hwyl]

Easily repairable Duncan, seems all the rot is above the deckline. Run some 4mm ply the whole length on the inside both sides, hold it in to the glue with some cheap screws, back the screws out when the glue has dried. make sure the pits that are left are oblong and square edged (clear away the seeping epoxy), put in patches (I think the boat is 6mm), glued to the existing backing plate you've engineered for yourself. Give her lots of bog, slap some paint on it, and go sailing. Your building a boat not a trophy to the god of plywood.

Rant over

[Duncan Gibbs]

Thanks Gareth! I was also thinking when I was doing the work above that some kind of double planking solution to the problem of patching it up. Such a solution would actually be stronger than the original too: It would be tempting to then sail her as hard as buggery and put a whopping great spiniker up too! :D

I guess my only imperative in the repair is to ensure structural soundness which includes ensuring no rot is left in the hull as well as making her look purrdy!

Got a friend with new sails as well Ian. Sorry to disappoint you mate! :D

[Jay Greer]

Although the boat is a candidate for stitch and glue repair, unless you are emotionally attached to "The Mighty Pippin", I would seriously consider taking the lines off of your faithful friend, build a replica and use the original as a planter box. Common sense says that the boat has come to the end of its practical life. Making tedious repairs that may be band aids over cancer can take more time and frustrating effort than starting anew!
Jay

[Duncan Gibbs]

Although the boat is a candidate for stitch and glue repair, unless you are emotionally attached to "The Mighty Pippin", I would seriously consider taking the lines off of your faithful friend, build a replica and use the original as a planter box. Common sense says that the boat has come to the end of its practical life. Making tedious repairs that may be band aids over cancer can take more time and frustrating effort than starting anew!
Jay

Jay, thanks for your condolences mate, but this is going to be what it is: Instructive and fun! As Gareth said I'm not building a temple to ply, but rather repairing a boat and then sail the crap out of it... I have grander plans for for the future. The Mighty Pippin is to see me through to The Second Vessel! And at the moment I'm having fun working this one out.

I like Gareth's suggestion and have preceeded accordingly. I should name it The Hwyl Technique in his honor!!

Today I have really been the Wood Butcher of Tumbulgum and have ruthlessly cut all the rot I could find out further to yesterday's effort. I have been all over the hull and there is next to no rot where the interior floatation has been painted with red-lead. Think I'll mix up some of Bob Smalser's recipe if I can get all the ingredients. Do you think a thin washed coat would inhibit an epoxy bond between each of the new sheers' two 'planks'?

Next I'll square everything off with the disk sander as close as possibly to a scribe line aside from the little ply chainplates, of which I need to replace one. As well as sand the whole interior back.

I've removed all gunnels and inwhales as well as the ply inbetween: I've kept all of these pieces as reference points for marking out the new sheer... ya gotta love that word - Sheer - It's kinda onomatopoetic!

Anyhoo, here's my wood butchering from the back:

http://pic80.picturetrail.com/VOL1913/10058894/19307885/309728645.jpg

Now to the starboard: I've cut the whole thing off down to the deck and then sum on either side. A friend has 16mmUD Silky Oak which I'm thinking of put through a thicknesser and taking down to 12-10mm and screw and glue fix it to the entire lower remaining section of transom. This should be brace enough for the aft of the new sheer to connect to, as well as a solid enough base for the rudder and main sheet to run off. It think?: Stop me if you think it's a bad idea and you've got a better one!

Port side:http://pic80.picturetrail.com/VOL1913/10058894/19307885/309728661.jpg

Starbord:http://pic80.picturetrail.com/VOL1913/10058894/19307885/309728657.jpg

I'm going to use the same Hwyl Technique on the floor. This is the floor aft of the CB where a previous repair was carried out to deal with a rotten seat to the venturi. I'll put a new floor down over the old from batten to batten and patch the divit left ala Hwyl Technique:http://pic80.picturetrail.com/VOL1913/10058894/19307885/309728652.jpg

Floor fore of CB, same deal although I may add some beeding to fix the floor and CB to each other:
http://pic80.picturetrail.com/VOL1913/10058894/19307885/309728651.jpg

And a last look from the front:http://pic80.picturetrail.com/VOL1913/10058894/19307885/309728649.jpg

From now on she'll only start to look better!!

[The Bigfella]

Do you think a thin washed coat would inhibit an epoxy bond between each of the new sheers' two 'planks'?



I'd not be putting anything where you will be applying epoxy.

[Mrleft8]

Kind of reminds me of a story about an axe.... Goes something like this...: "Yup. I've had this axe for 45 years.... Had to replace the handel 6 times, and the head once, but it's the same axe I bought 45 years ago..." ;)

[Larks]

Kind of reminds me of a story about an axe.... Goes something like this...: "Yup. I've had this axe for 45 years.... Had to replace the handel 6 times, and the head once, but it's the same axe I bought 45 years ago..." ;)

Yep, I've got a similar axe, it was Grandfathers axe and I reckon it is still in as new condition, had 9 new handles and 3 new heads.

[Duncan Gibbs]

Kind of reminds me of a story about an axe.... Goes something like this...: "Yup. I've had this axe for 45 years.... Had to replace the handel 6 times, and the head once, but it's the same axe I bought 45 years ago..." ;)

Yea of little faith!!:rolleyes::p
Or just a dang purist!!

This is s'posed to be my shock and awe campaign ya know!! It's turning into my shocking and awful instead!:eek:

So not even a really really thin turps based red-lead wash? Almost like a stain I was thinking...

[The Bigfella]

Strewth Dunc - you wan't to stick some greasy oil-based concoction under where you want to glue?

[Duncan Gibbs]

Raw timber it is then.

[Hwyl]

J.

I like Gareth's suggestion and have preceeded accordingly. I should name it The Hwyl Technique in his honor!!




Well "Hwyl" means both "sail" and "fun" so have fun, but get back to going sailing. That's the whole point after all.

[The Bigfella]

Best way to do it is to heat the ply up a bit (pinch the bun-chucker's hair dryer) hit it while it is hot with a bit of unthickened epoxy - which will soak into the end grain of the ply - don't use any more heat after this - use a cheap brush to slather it on - then glue up with thickened epoxy - mayonaisse consistency - plenty of clamps. Use a bit of plastic to stop your clamps getting glued up if necessary.

[Duncan Gibbs]

Well "Hwyl" means both "sail" and "fun" so have fun, but get back to going sailing. That's the whole point after all.

I was also thinking of calling it The Welsh Repair! :D:D:D

[Saltiguy]

Mirror Dinghy! What a boat. I sailed one "hard" for about 15 years. Kept a log in those days, and was sailing an average of 12 hours PER WEEK year-round in the New England weather.
I have some wonderful stories about that little boat. I did loads of crazy stuff. Heavy wind, big water - she would take a full knock-down and pop right back up and never quit! I out-sailed lots of bigger boats in that little eleven foot boat. Too bad the class never caught on in the US. I had mine all tricked-out with a drop-dead paint job, racing sails from England and all the little go-fast rigging.

[Lew Barrett]

I have nothing helpful to add. Just wanted to make another post!

[Duncan Gibbs]

I have nothing helpful to add. Just wanted to make another post!

Make yourself useful then Lew, and tell me what you think of the idea for the transom... :rolleyes:

[Duncan Gibbs]

Sanding, sanding and sanding!!

Having already done the outside, here is the progress on the inside. I've nearly finished getting all the old crappy paint jobby off and The Mighty Pippin looks like a boat with a bit of spark back in her! Tell you what though, I didn't expect the interior to be as slow going as it was... And it's still not done.

I'm thinking now that I want as much as possible of the interior to bright, aside from the seems and wearing edge between the deck and cockpit sides. In the tricky little bits not able to be hit with the disk sander, where I scraped back the TWO different paint jobs, I discovered that the interior was actually bright when she was first launched.

Anyhoo, here is the progress:

http://pic80.picturetrail.com/VOL1913/10058894/19307885/313073175.jpg

http://pic80.picturetrail.com/VOL1913/10058894/19307885/313073174.jpg

http://pic80.picturetrail.com/VOL1913/10058894/19307885/313073172.jpg

http://pic80.picturetrail.com/VOL1913/10058894/19307885/313073176.jpg

From this:

http://pic80.picturetrail.com/VOL1913/10058894/18552276/293294642.jpg

http://pic80.picturetrail.com/VOL1913/10058894/18552276/293294610.jpg

I think I'm doing okay. Next I've got a few pieces of silky oak from a mate and will use that to glue up the transom and attach a whole new section directly onto the ply at the back, and brace it with the new shear. I'll also use some for the new mast step, "chain plates", gunnels and inwhales.

[The Bigfella]

Geez mate - its gunna be a bit hard on the bum sitting on that rail eh?

[Brian Palmer]

How about just cutting off everything about 1 inch (2.5 cm) above the float tanks and gluing on a ply lapstrake "sheer strake" all the way around? That would leave the tape intact that bonds the tanks to the hull sides, if they are taped on the outside.

You could even leave the sheer strake varnished for a real classy look.

Glass in some small knees in way of the shrouds.

That would use a lot less epoxy and goop than trying to fill all those gaps where the rot was cut out, and it might even look pretty clean when it is done.

The boat would no longer be "legal" for racing (e.g. the beam would be wider and it would be slightly longer), but you werent trying to keep it legal anyway.

Have fun.

Brian

[Duncan Gibbs]

Panic nay Ian! After the new transom goes on, the new interior sheer piece will have somewhere to land at either end. Then the patches will go onto the back of the new interior sheer and fixed solid with the new gunnel and inwhale. Your bum will be safe mate!! :D

[Duncan Gibbs]

Thought about that for an idea as well Brian, but although it would be easier, I like the challenge and I think that the Hwyl Technique will produce a stronger result.

And you're correct, this will not be a class boat, not that there's anyone to race here: It's all bloody GRP stink boats here, dragging people around at speed. :rolleyes: