Restoration vs Rebuild

[juke]

Can anyone tell me if there are official rules or guidelines stipulating what constitutes a restoration vs a rebuild?

[The Bigfella]

No.

[redbopeep]

Dunno about "official terms" in the boating world, but in the world of historic structures (buildings), the following apply:

Conservation: when you "conserve" as much original material as possible. This means some things are in bad shape--finishes are not stripped, but instead "touched up" and the patina of age is everywhere. Things with rot or insect damage may not be repaired but instead, damage is arrested. Often things cannot be used as intended because of damage which has been stopped from going forward but the repair of which would cause too much replacement of original materials of construction.

Restoration: things are "restored" to their like new condition to the era they were built. Materials are matched, methods of construction are re-used so that when the building is complete, it is more-or-less as it would have been when it was new. Exceptions made when changes must be had to bring building up to modern code/standards. With restoration, some original materials are intact, but repairs are made with new materials largely indistinguishable from the original used in replacement.

Renovation: Broad term, this can be just about anything. The building may be gutted and rebuilt using modern materials with only the shell intact. Some renovations are "almost" restorations but frequently much historic fabric is lost during renovations, rehabs, rebuilds.

I get the impression that in the boating world people use the term restoration where I would use the term conservation and they use the term rebuild for both/either restoration and/or renovation of the hull elements and refit for restoration and/or renovation of the interior.



Hope that helps.

[werner]

in Europe we have the Barcelona Charter, describing restoration rules
http://www.european-maritime-heritage.org/EMHsite/Cultural%20Council/barcelona%20charter.htm

[Ron Carter]

You have to answer that question in the context that it will later be judged. In most groups it is the source of much debate and little agreement. The Bigfella has the most concise answer.

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

Can anyone tell me if there are official rules or guidelines stipulating what constitutes a restoration vs a rebuild?

What are you after? Your one sentence isn't very ilumminating.
If you are salvaging a classic boat for show the rules can be rather demanding. If you just want to have a nice wooden boat to tool around in you can do whatever you like.
One big problem is many classic boats exist in only a few examples. At a show the diversity of marks in a given class mean the judges can't compare boats point for point. A lot of opinion gets into the judging.
Over the last decade or so the ACBS has tried to come up with tighter rules and definitions but, it is a work in progress. Also, the ACBS members have mostly powerboats that don't live in the water, and don't have deep keels and heavy ballast that make hauling difficult.
If you are in the United States you can go to one of the many ACBS shows to see how it all works out. The next one is in Tavares, Florida in a couple of weeks.

[rbgarr]

Search the online WB Magazine Index and you'll find reference to an article in Woodenboat about this issue.

[gary porter]

If you look in issue ,,,??? about 184, 185, and 186, thereabouts you'll find a series on such with a good explanation, in the authors opinion, of the differences and through at least three issues a very good series on the methods. A very good how to approach with some very good ideas on considerations like when to repair , when to replace etc.
Worth the read. I think the author or one of them is McClave.
Good luck
Gary

[Roger Cumming]

Mystic Seaport "restored" the smack Emma C. Berry in 1971 and published a book about it. It states that in this case restoration means, "a deliberate change in a vessel's appearance to that of a specific time in her career.". Over 100 years the boat was altered and repaired and each time she lost some of her original timber. She came to the museum with the keel, aft deadwood, traces of frames and possibly the stem and sternpost of her original build.

[redbopeep]

I'm looking forward to Juke's reply of why he wants to know.

From going to http://www.european-maritime-heritag...%20charter.htm (http://www.european-maritime-heritage.org/EMHsite/Cultural%20Council/barcelona%20charter.htm)

It seems pretty vague and wide open. It also appears from this and other resources that boat restorations should follow the same guidelines for preservation of other historic or culturally important buildings, monuments, parks, etc. In these other cases, a period is usually selected (sometimes a date or year of significance for the building/park/monument) for the restoration to go back to. This can involve removing additions and other truly historically significant elements in order to get "back to" the selected period or date.

Its an interesting topic that I'd love to hear how various wbf folks have dealt with it with small vessels.

[juke]

My question was brief I know but the reason for the question is that a classic boat is now under "restoration" but the critics are calling it a rebuild as it was in poor condition and needed a lot to be renewed.
I am looking for something concrete to offer them as a reply to their remarks

[juke]

Thankyou for this, it seems to cover all i need for our argument that the vessel is being restored not rebuilt but it does fail to cover the all important notion of retaining the vessels soul or spirit!
cheers Juke

[hm0316]

You may find it helpful to review the rules of the Comite Internatioanl des Courses Croisieres de la Mediterranee, which can be found at www.cim-classicyachts.org (http://www.cim-classicyachts.org). The CIM is the sanctioning body which establishes rating rules for vitage and classic yachts in Europe where racing vintage and classic yachts is well established and highly competitive. The approach taken in Article 14 of the rules is to assess penalties depending on the degree of new material used or changes made to the original design, with the most substantial penalties being assessed for changes that modify the "aspect d'origine" of the vessel. Very few vessels that I have seen are restored to their original specifications, frequently because it would make no sense to repeat deficiencies in the original design or materials. My own view is that if a vessel is "restored" using traditional materials and techniques, changes are made only to remedy origianal defects in design or materials and the "original aspect" or soul of the vessel is respected, then the owner should be applauded. hm0316

[pcford]

Restoration is the process of returning the vessel to its original condition. In some cases when the boat is in very poor condition then rebuilding may be required.

I once restored a boat which required rebuilding 85% of the boat.

[Tom Robb]

I remember reading an argument/complaint about a race car (Nascar, F1, Indy, Sports car - whatever) not being "original."
There's no such thing.
Race vehicles of any sort, be they boats, cars, motorcycles, are changed continuously to either improve them or repair wear and damage.
The whole notion is absurd.
Someone arbitrarily picks a point in a thing's history and claims it as original.
Town Histerical Committees are notorious for it.
I guess everybody needs a hobby.

[pcford]

I remember reading an argument/complaint about a race car (Nascar, F1, Indy, Sports car - whatever) not being "original."
There's no such thing.
Race vehicles of any sort, be they boats, cars, motorcycles, are changed continuously to either improve them or repair wear and damage.
The whole notion is absurd.
Someone arbitrarily picks a point in a thing's history and claims it as original.
Town Histerical Committees are notorious for it.
I guess everybody needs a hobby.

I suppose.

In the classic speedboat hobby, original condition is that which exists when the boat left her builder.

Comparisons with racecars or houses are not on point in my humble opnion.

[hm0316]

Restoration is the process of returning the vessel to its original condition. In some cases when the boat is in very poor condition then rebuilding may be required.

I once restored a boat which required rebuilding 85% of the boat.

I agree with pcford that a boat can be "restored" by essentially "rebuilding" it. The issue should be what materials and methods are used and how close the restored boat is to the original design.

Although the CIM rules discussed above have generally had a beneficial effect in ecouraging authenticity in the context of vintage and classic yacht racing in Europe, they have at times discouraged the replacement of materials in order to encrease the level of original materials in a vessel and improve the rating granted a yacht. This has lead to unnecessary structual failures which could have been avoided had new materials been used. It is much better to go ahead and replace unsound materials at the same time rather than leaving weak materials in place, which may compromise the strength and longevity of the vessel. hm0316

[Tom Robb]

PCford,
I guess my rant had less to do with not vandalizing a nice old boat or historically significant one and more to do with arbitrary (and wierd) ideas of value. I've heard guys say that in old cars ratty original paint and shot upholstry are more valuable that restored to new (from the factory) condition - the Antiques Roadshow Syndrome where old filth is patina and cleaning reduces value.
Where do these people get their ideas?
As hm0316 said, replacing unsound materials is better/more reasonable, unless the craft is high and dry in a museum.
But I must respectfully disagree that comparisons with houses and race cars are not the point. In my mind they are related to the point. That it's all arbitrary and can get out of hand in an anal retentive sort of way, and become high class worries.

[Peter Malcolm Jardine]

I am doing a restoration... I say that because the boat has been useable every season, and upgrades/replacement/refinish has been the name of the game.

Restoration is spending twice as much as the boat is worth when it's done. Rebuilding is spending four times as much. ;)

[juke]

Thankyou for that,
cheers Juke

[juke]

Very cleverly put!
I will pass this on,
cheers Juke

[pcford]

PCford,
I guess my rant had less to do with not vandalizing a nice old boat or historically significant one and more to do with arbitrary (and wierd) ideas of value. I've heard guys say that in old cars ratty original paint and shot upholstery are more valuable that restored to new (from the factory) condition - the Antiques Roadshow Syndrome where old filth is patina and cleaning reduces value.
Where do these people get their ideas?
As hm0316 said, replacing unsound materials is better/more reasonable, unless the craft is high and dry in a museum.
But I must respectfully disagree that comparisons with houses and race cars are not the point. In my mind they are related to the point. That it's all arbitrary and can get out of hand in an anal retentive sort of way, and become high class worries.

Houses and racecars are naturally an evolving creation. In my speciality, classic speedboats, this is not the case. The original condition is the way it rolled out of the shop/factory.

Only very rarely is a boat restored to a state that is not its original one. I recently restored a '48 unlimited hydroplane to a state that to which it was modified in about 1950. The owner wanted it that way because it was in a movie, Magnificent Obsession, in that configuration.

In the ACBS for the last several years, there has been an attempt to stop "over restoration" of boats. This came about because boats were being restored by pulling off members that had minor imperfections. IE, replacing all planking. There is an appreciation of "original" boats as there is with cars. (As I understand it.)

The problem with this thread is that people are arguing about terms which they really don't understand.

[hm0316]

Houses and racecars are naturally an evolving creation. In my speciality, classic speedboats, this is not the case. The original condition is the way it rolled out of the shop/factory.

Only very rarely is a boat restored to a state that is not its original one. I recently restored a '48 unlimited hydroplane to a state that to which it was modified in about 1950. The owner wanted it that way because it was in a movie, Magnificent Obsession, in that configuration.

In the ACBS for the last several years, there has been an attempt to stop "over restoration" of boats. This came about because boats were being restored by pulling off members that had minor imperfections. IE, replacing all planking. There is an appreciation of "original" boats as there is with cars. (As I understand it.)

The problem with this thread is that people are arguing about terms which they really don't understand.

I am familiar with classic cars as well as wooden boat restoration, although not hydroplanes. It sounds as if classic hydroplanes are similar to classic cars, in which there has been a trend recently to avoid overrestoration and to reward originality. The same effort has been made in Europe with the CIM rating rules discussed above. In general, I agree that originality is desirable in a historically significant artifact, be it a boat or a car.

The preservation issues relevant to a large cruising or racing boat, of the sort that interest me, are slightly different from those affecting cars and I suspect hydroplanes. It is possible and desirable to have a "numbers matching" auto from say 1936 or 1906, but it is much more difficult and not necessarily desirable to try for the same thing with respect to a 45 foot sailboat of the same vintage. Having said that, I think it would be desirable for there to be a greater emphasis on originality in classic boat restoration in the United States. Part of the pleasure of owning and being around old boats is the sense of history they provide and that is enhanced by preserving the original parts of a boat to the extent possible. hm0316

[juke]

This thread is about trying to understand certain "terms" or really "clarifying" if there is any and if so what they really mean,
cheers Juke