Varnishing and need some help

[Audioten]

The varnish on my Rascal project is coming along.
But i have some spots that I havent filled completly with epoxy.
So now there are some spots that I need to fill.

What is the best way of doing this?
Anny suggestion will be greatly appreciated.

http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m221/audioten/Rascal/DSC00256-2.jpg

I now have five coat's on the boat. Nine to go:)

[Raka025]

It looks like light is showing through. I would just say keep sanding and keep varnishing and the holes will fill eventually. You don't want to fill with epoxy at this point.

[Lew Barrett]

I think it's reflections and not light, at least I'd hope so. But I agree with Raka. Fill, fill, fill, with varnish. If doing a billion complete coats is not in the program, fill them locally with fast drying or high build varnish, like Epi Wood Finish. I usually tape off in a square patch when I have to fill locally, move the tape for each coat, and then sand flush.

[Todd D]

Although the picture isn't too good, it looks to me like you need to sand it pretty aggressively thenkeep varnishing and sanding. Mahogany generally takes 8-10 coats for a really nice finish. At this point, I would say you have too much varnish thickness built up, which is why I say sand aggressively, but not completely through the varnish.

[C. Ross]

I'd second Epifanes wood finish as a faster filler with less sanding. Obvious comment -- can you get the surface horizontal so the varnish will self-level?

[Lew Barrett]

Whatever you do, the crack will eventually return as the varnish shrinks back over time. Enjoy the process!

[Audioten]

Thank's guy's

And no it's not light showing through. Thank god:)
It's just in the outer layer between two "planks" that are not completly filled with epoxy.

I filled them some today with varnish, and looks like they will disapare.


Although the picture isn't too good, it looks to me like you need to sand it pretty aggressively thenkeep varnishing and sanding. Mahogany generally takes 8-10 coats for a really nice finish. At this point, I would say you have too much varnish thickness built up, which is why I say sand aggressively, but not completely through the varnish.

To much varnish thickness? Isn't that what i want?
I have put on four coats with light sanding between.
After the fourth coat i sanded it down to get it straight.
Then put on 3-4 coats with light sanding and then straighten it out again.
Is this wrong???:confused:

[Lew Barrett]

No, it's fine. Always sand to an even scratch, though. It should look evenly cloudy throughout. Use a 3M Scotchbright pad to key the areas that sandpaper (always on a block) skips over.

[Todd D]

My way of varnishing is as follows:

I apply coats with moderate sanding between coats until all the pores are filled. I generally sand with 220 grit at this stage. The next step is to sand thoroughly, again with 220, but not so thoroghly that you break through the varnish film.
I then revarnish. I consider a varnish job almost done when I get a smooth even finish while sanding only varnish. When I achieve that I recoat and then sand with 400 grit in preparation for the "final" coat.

I strive for just enough varnish to fill the pores and provide a sandable varnish surface. I don't go for thick varnish build ups. In my limited experience, I find the following average results:

Teak - 8-10 coats
Mahogany - 7-9 coats
Cherry - 5-7 coats

Here is an example of teak with about 8=9 coats. The model is a Nautors Swan 57 that I strip planked in teak. It is mounted on satin varnished birch. I used Epiphanes varnishes.

http://www.todddunnmicroyachts.com/swan_57-8.jpg

[Lew Barrett]

Todd,
First, your model is beautifully finished.
I don't know if your experience is confined to models or encompasses all-weather boats as well. If you have experience with working boats, then you know that those which are used in three seasons take a significant amount of abuse and see a lot of sun, rain and salt. In the end, a boat that is used will see so much varnishing that after a period of time it's no longer a question of keeping her beautiful or picture perfect, but rather of creating a finish that protects the wood and is servicable and attractive as circumstances and use patterns allow.
We all take great pleasure in a perfectly finished boat, but in the real world, in respect to our finish quality, our boats ride a curve of acceptability. If on my boat, a flaw required that I tape, sand and varnish the bulk of it with an additional coat because there was some problem in the top coat, we'd be talking about a week of additional work. A week of hard, eight to ten hour days for one coat.
Hence, in the end, many of us come up with solutions that accept a certain amount of flaws as a compromise in consideration of the fact that we are applying something that will wear away within a season anyway. The rule of thumb up here is that we loose two coats a year to the sun. In many places in the world, the loss to UV is greater. Highly varnished collectable runabouts are rarely even launched in salt water, and are generally garaged or housed in between uses to minimize deterioration. They represent a special subset of the hobby, as do the overwhelmingly impressive boats of the wealthy and picky.
In the user boat world, the depth of the coat....how much gets laid down....is of great value. Within reason, and assuming the preceding base coats are properly applied, the more varnish the better. Equally, within reason, a boat that will be used and enjoyed needn't be perfect. No matter what you do, it certainly won't be by the end of the season.
One strives to get the stuff on as smoothly and cleanly as possible, and one tries to learn from doing. You try not to blindly repeat yourself if you find that you are having problems with certain areas, instead seeking alternate approaches to problems, either in brushing technique, application, thinning, what-have-you. We've all seen superb work by dedicated and consumate pros such as Warren here. And, it is incredibly instructive to read the posts and see the immaculate results. But in the end, you want to go boating. Bear that in mind as you go forward, and remember there's always next year, and another coat.
Audioten, you're looking fine. Keep at it.

[Todd D]

Lew,

You are certainly judgemental when you have no knowledge of my situation. First, let me tell you that I do indeed have some "real world" experience of varnishing on full size boats. In fact, I have two boats. Bits of both boats are visible in the picture below.

http://www.todddunnmicroyachts.com/tortuga/cabin_top_almost_done.JPG

My woodie is a 1936 raised deck cruiser built in the style of a Lake Union Dreamboat by the Nunes Brothers of Sausalito. It has a varnished mahogany cabin house. I just bought it last fall. It had been sitting for three years so the varnish is rough. I will wood all the brightwork this spring and properly varnish it. The other boat is a 1972 36' sailboat with teak toe rails, cockpit coamings, winch pads, hand rails, companionway boards and other bits of trim. Every spring I put three touchup coats on all chips and other flaws then put two full coats on all topsides wood. I started wooding the cockpit coamings last fall just before the picture was taken, which explains their sad state.

Where I live on the Maine coast, we are acutally south of you in the Pacific NW, so our summer sun is harder on varnish than yours. During the season, the vast majority of boats here hang on moorings so they are in the weather 24/7. In addition, this area is home to several of the worlds best boat builders. Consequently, varnish standards are quite high. Basically, a flawless finish is pretty much the minimum most people will accept. I maintain the varnish on my boats to the same standard as the varnish on the models I build.

Personally, I have my boats as much to work on them as to use them. I enjoy spending a nice day sanding the varnish down and recoating it. I also use my boats. Last summer I managed just over 100 days on the water. Can you say the same?

[Lew Barrett]

I didn't mean to judge you Todd, so sorry that my response came off that way and I apologize for anything offensive. When I said that the model was nice, I meant it, and when I asked the question about your "real world" skills it was because I had no knowledge of your experience and was genuinely asking if you kept a boat. I see now that you do. I understand that, having named the post to you, you rightly assumed all of the words in it were directed at you. Actually, only the first two sentences were intended for you, the rest was addresses, more or less, to audioten. However, this post is all about answering your questions of me.
I have boating experience, and a boat that I use full time. I have no quibble with your technique, it's not any different than how I would approach varnishing in my ideal world.
As I indicated, the rest of my responses are an effort to explain to audioten that I find it very difficult to keep a varnished boat that one uses with any regularity in perfect order. Also, all other things being equal, a greater depth of the finished coatings can be an advantage in respect to how the sun does it's work. That's probably the jumping off point for us. Of course, none of us like to see a boat with thickly smeared varnish, lumpy and dirty, but learning to do the boat is a process.
I don't count my days on the water; 100 "trips" out in some seasons, with four or five weeks of unbroken cruising in there would be an ideal season for me, and probably more use than my boat normally sees as I have a day job. But she gets around. She's a larger boat in respect to what most people keep here on the forum, and been quite a handful over the years.
I like working on my boat too, but I'm less in love with varnishing her as time goes by. Maybe that reflects my 22 years of keeping wooden boats. Some jobs are more fun than others. If I were a rich man, I'd hire the varnishing out at this point. It's repetitive and tedious. But as it happens, I can't afford to do that; few can. So I have learned my own approach and technique. Each of us are wedded to these approaches, as they work for us. I'm confident you feel the same, and that over time you'll discover I'm not really such a bad guy.

[Robmill0605]

Todd,

Take it easy, I think you are taking offense when Lew is just trying to help you with his expierence.
His beautiful boat is featured in magazines......

can you say the same?

[Eric Hvalsoe]

fill them locally with fast drying or high build varnish, like Epi Wood Finish.

Lew, tell me more about this particular product - this is Epiphanes?
Eric

[Lew Barrett]

Eric,
It is. Wood Finish Gloss is a slower drying product than their regular gloss varnish, but in application isn't really any different. You could substitute one for the other in a varnish program and barely tell the difference. Same thinner, same basic technique, just a bit slower drying as far as I can tell. So, here's the ups and downs:

"Wood Finish Gloss: can be coated over within 72 hours without sanding. What you get is an apparent coat that is, naturally, about twice as thick as a "sanded coat of their standard brew." Say that fast three times! I've come to incorporate it as a regular feature of my program. From bare, I seal as normal but built perhaps three or four coats using "Wood finish gloss." Then a hard sand after waiting a few days for some real cure. You have to wait after three or four coats, or at least I do, because this stuff cures down from the top and can be tough to sand through if you keep on coating day on day.
It may sand out a bit differently than you're used to, since what you have is one "giant", chemically bonded coat. Then, a couple more coats of this stuff laid out one on top of another, no sanding. Then a sand, and a coat or two of top coats applied with sanding in between.
You can vary the whole program depending on circumstances, and if you like, you can use the standard Epifanes on the top two coats, or anywhere in between. They are 100% compatible with each other.
I find I save at least three or four sanding courses, and a couple of taping courses with each full round up from bare. For retouching or repairs, two or three coats of this stuff will yield a thicker finished
depth than the standard as well.
On my big boat, I tend to be less fussy in certain areas than others, especially if those areas are out of the line of sight. Your little boat will get the best I can do this spring because everything is visible all the time. It has lain carefully covered and protected all winter with just the sealer coats on her, but will get painted and finish varnished for this season. I am so anxious to get her in the water!

[C. Ross]

A very seasoned wood boat restorer here said his rule of thumb was the maintenance required on a boat cubes with its length. So a 36 foot boat requires nine times the maintenance effort of a 12 foot boat.

I keep that ratio in mind every time I see a runabout or daysailer in concours d'elegance condition. I figure I don't have nine times the time or budget of that guy, and some things will have to be OK, not perfect.