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BRobinson
12-11-2004, 01:04 AM
After searching every past post on the subject of 3 or 4mm BS1088 ply, I cannot come to a conclusion on which to use. I've been using Okume, which I like - but the issues of "not durable" and "rot prone" keep coming up. There are several posts supporting Meranti, I know of others using Sapele. I'm open to anything, and I don't really care about cost. Opinions please - Thanks all.

Dave Gray
12-11-2004, 01:20 AM
Whoo boy! This should be a fun thread! smile.gif

G. Schollmeier
12-11-2004, 02:17 AM
3-4 mm, you must be building small boats or kayaks, weight is more of a concern. Keep it encapsulated with paint or epoxy and rot won’t be a problem. There is no one size fits all answer. If rot is your only concern, go with plastic or stainless steel. Rum may have influenced this reply but it should still stand.

Gary :D

Billy Bones
12-11-2004, 08:14 AM
Wow, I've just posed this same question elsewhere. I've used both, and I find little to recommend okoume over meranti, aside from weight which for me isn't an insurmountable issue. Okoume is prettier though so take that into account if you are going to leave any parts bright finished.

NormMessinger
12-11-2004, 08:38 AM
"I find little to recommend okoume over meranti...."

Price being no object? Meranti is much prettier if one is finish bright otherwise see Gary's response above.

JimD
12-11-2004, 08:52 AM
I've used both. Meranti is about 20% heavier, but less expensive than okoume. Both look nice finished bright. Like others say for a small boat if weight is an issue stay with okoume, it won't rot if stored on dry land.

Tom Lathrop
12-11-2004, 09:59 AM
I've used both. When weight is an issue, and it often is, I use occume. Carrying a kayak that is 20 - 25% heavier is 25% too much for me. For one of my boats, meranti would acccount for about 400 lbs of extra weight. That is like carring 2 1/2 extra adult crew that you can't get rid of. There is a price in performance, economy and trailering that is permanent. The extra cost is paid only once.

As for the issue of appearance, it depends on the sheet you are looking at, some sheets are nice and some ugly in both camps.

If the work is done right, rot will not be a major issue.

No definitive answer, choose what best suits you or the project at hand.

Cuyahoga Chuck
12-11-2004, 10:38 AM
Okoume is top of the line because it has desirable characteristics like light weight and homogeonous grain that are ideal for making the best plywood. Okoume's low strength doesn't matter. The structure of the verneer sandwich makes up for that. It is assumed that any wood used for marine purposes will be adequitly protected by a suitable marine coating so the low rot resistence is not considered a limiting factor.
I have a 30 LB kayak made from 3mm Bruynzeel. The hull is formed by bending and twisting the panels into shape. The Bruynzeel took it all without a wimper and was finished bright without much sanding. Since the bottom isn't 'glassed I try to enter and exit in water that is at least knee deep.
Charlie

Venchka
12-11-2004, 11:29 AM
Originally posted by Cuyahoga Chuck:
Okoume is top of the line because it has desirable characteristics like light weight and homogeonous grain ...

I have a 30 LB kayak made from 3mm Bruynzeel.

CharlieParaphrasing from memory-not always a good thing-but here goes...

Okoume was considered a trash wood until the good woods began to get very scarce. Somebody had the bright idea to inlude a fungicide in the glue used to turn okoume veneer into plywood. The European plywood makers then convinced Lloyd's of London that the fungicide made okoume durable enough to warrent approval for marine use. The light weight of okoume spawned a whole segment of the boatbuilding industry-light weight glued lap small boats. Used in that context it is very good indeed.

As for Bruynzeel, it is quite good. They make a 10 year delamination guarantee okoume plywood and a 20 year guarantee sapele plywood. All Lloyd's Approved. Interestingly, Bruynzeel never mentions BS 1088 in their literature. No worries. The stuff is good.

Your question of okoume vs. meranti is probably moot. A quick and dirty search of reliable vendors on the internet fails to turn up meranti in thicknesses below 6mm. The only source I found for <6mm plywood of known high quality is the Shelmarine plywood from Harbor Sales. They have both okoume and sapele in 3mm, 4mm, 5mm & 6mm. The Shelmarine plywood is outstanding! I have 10 sheets of it in my boat. First rate for sure!

HARBOR SALES MARINE PLYWOOD (http://www.harborsales.net/products.cfm?cat=Nautical%20%2D%2D%20Marine%20Pane ls)

I personally would put more faith in Lloyd's Approval label on a sheet of plywood than I would in an unknown source's claim that the plywood was made to BS 1088.

You pays your money and takes your chances. I voted with my money for Lloyd's Type Approved marine plywood. I am glad I did. It was worth every penny. Cheap in the long run to my way of thinking.

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

NormMessinger
12-11-2004, 11:50 AM
Oops, me bad. The price is no object, and beauty remarks above were triggered by thoughts of sapele rather than meranti. Can't say as I've ever seen the latter. John Brooks was using sapele for the boats he was building at the WoodenBoat School when we were there last July. Beautiful stuff, he insisted on the best. Or so I seem to remember.

Captain Pre-Capsize
12-11-2004, 11:53 AM
Well you have here an unhappy Meranti customer. I spent six months on my eleven foot skiff made of 4mm Meranti graded and stamped BS 1088.

Having finished the interior after a chilly winter of construction in the garage I rolled it out into the spring sunshine. Strolling around the boat I couldn't believe that I was able to actually build such a thing. Then I saw the funny reflection on the interior floor. I walked left. I walked right. Still there. Hmmm... I reached inside to see where the weird shadow was coming from.

HORRORS!!! A large bubble where this expensive plywood had delaminated. Then I saw a smaller bubble right next to it. I wanted to sit down and have a good cry. I pushed down on them and they pushed themselves right back up. ARGHHH! :mad:

There is a post under building/repair entitled, I think, "Meranti woes" or something where you all were most helpful in giving me ideas on how to cure this. To date I have not done anything -maybe in the spring.

It frosts me good that I paid the big money for an inferior product. Never again Meranti. Occume in the future or Brunzeel.

NormMessinger
12-11-2004, 02:56 PM
I wonder if the problem was the species or the manufacturer. Who'd you get it from, if I may ask?

Isn't Brunzeel a brand name?

Tom Lathrop
12-11-2004, 04:32 PM
Unless my memory fails me as it often does, the Brits have not maintained the BS standards for several years. The standards still exists, of course, and manufacturers still use the stamp and claim that their product conforms. I don't think that there is official inspection and approval any more though. Therefore there would not be any penalty if the stamp is used and the product does not conform.

Another reason to buy from known reputable sources.

BRobinson
12-11-2004, 04:38 PM
Excellent info. No, it will not be finished bright. It will be CPES'd and painted. Does one type work better with adhesives (5200 or epoxy) better than the other? Sounds like Sapele does everything Okoume does and more, i.e. rot resistance and it's prettier to look at - yes?

Cuyahoga Chuck
12-11-2004, 05:12 PM
It wouldn't take a genious to get a BS1088 stamp made. Bruynzeel (at least the panels I bought) puts a paper logo on every panel.
Even tho' the BS1088 requirements may have been superceded by now it's a good idea to learn what they stood for so that you know what to yell about when you have to return a defective panel.
Charlie

Leon Steyns
12-11-2004, 06:22 PM
Originally posted by NormMessinger:
I wonder if the problem was the species or the manufacturer. Who'd you get it from, if I may ask?

Isn't Brunzeel a brand name?Yes, it is. Bruynzeel is a series of Dutch companies that are active in kitchens, pencils, storage systems, plastics and plywood. The latter one is called Bruynzeel Multipanel (see: here (http://www.bruynzeelmultipanel.com/) ).

All companies with the Bruynzeel name carry a logo similar to this one:
http://www.bruynzeelmultipanel.com/siteimages/bruynleft2.gif

Greets, Leon Steyns.

Venchka
12-11-2004, 06:47 PM
Originally posted by BRobinson:
...
Sounds like Sapele does everything Okoume does and more, i.e. rot resistance and it's prettier to look at - yes?
Sapele is also the heaviest of the 3, by about 50% in the case of okoume. Heavier than douglas fir too. Assuming the weights listed at Boulter Plywood are correct. Expressed differently, you can drop down a thickness relative to okoume.

I'm not sure about prettier. It's been awhile since I saw sapele up close. Sapele's grain is more pronounced. Darker for sure. Not ugly. Eye of the beholder rules govern here. I have seen okoume stained and finished bright and it was very close to the sapele on an adjacent boat.

A lot of boats have been built with okoume or sapele and glued up with epoxy. They seem to be holding together ok.

I would be more concerned with what I could get locally. Inspecting it for voids, veneer thickness, number of plies, surface defects, etc. Call harbor Sales and ask if they have a dealer on the west coast. If you have to have it shipped in, Bruynzeel and Shelmarine can be trusted sight unseen.

Yes, rubber stamps are cheap and easy to use. There is no supervision or inspection of the British Standard. The Lloyd's Type Approval label can be trusted. Lloyd's doesn't give their approval lightly. They test samples before issuing their label.

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

Cuyahoga Chuck
12-11-2004, 09:59 PM
For those that want to "parlez" with your marine ply suppliers here are some brands/producers of the good stuff.
Bruynzeel-Holland
Shellmarine-supposedly Greek,may be made in S.E. Asia
Joubert-France?
Bruget-France?
Tubois-France?
Lydney-U.K.
Tabor-(Kelet-Afakim)Israel,may be defunct.
Keep looking.
Charlie

Venchka
12-11-2004, 11:03 PM
Originally posted by Cuyahoga Chuck:
For those that want to "parlez" with your marine ply suppliers here are some brands/producers of the good stuff.
Bruynzeel-Holland M.L. Condon, New York
Merritt, Florida
Noah's Marine, Ontario and Buffalo, New York


Shellmarine-supposedly Greek,may be made in S.E. Asia
Shelman's mill is situated on the island of Evvia, 55 miles northeast of Athens. WB 174, page 46 Have you heard differently?

Harbor Sales, MD, Maine Coast Lumber, York, ME and other dealers in North America.


Joubert-France?Westwind Hardwood, Sidney, B.C. Westwind sells okoume and meranti starting at 4mm.


Bruget-France?
Tubois-France?
Lydney-U.K.
Tabor-(Kelet-Afakim)Israel,may be defunct.
Keep looking.
CharlieCharlie,

Are any of the last 4 on the list available in North America? I know Boulter stocked plywood from some lesser known mills. Boulter had some georgeous sapele plywood from Belloti in Italy back in 2002. I read that the entire Israeli plywood industry had shut down around 2000. I don't know if they are back up or not.

Not a bad list of sources for imported marine plywood. No doubt there are other sources. Knowing who made what you are buying is the $64 question.

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

Dave Gray
12-12-2004, 01:29 AM
So Billy, are you going to build Paketi?

Billy Bones
12-12-2004, 05:45 AM
:D

nope, although if I were Meranti would be my choice.

Cuyahoga Chuck
12-12-2004, 12:55 PM
Wayne,
Both Bruget and Joubert were available in the Great Lakes region. One was sold by Public Lumber in Detroit but now they handle US Holland which I'm not familar with.
Since Homestead Hardwoods, in Vickery OH, became available to me, I have stopped looking so far afield. Ten years ago I did a 600 mile round trip to get 2 sheets of Bruynzeel from Noahs.
Since the dollar is in the tank I'm not inclined to go there even tho' Toronto is a very nice town.
Charlie

Venchka
12-12-2004, 07:12 PM
Noah's has an outlet (warehouse only I think) in Buffalo, NY. All the money changing is done painlessly before your purchase.

Is the marine plywood from Homestead Hardwood in Ohio of decent quality?

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

Cuyahoga Chuck
12-12-2004, 09:51 PM
Wayne,
I visit relatives in Buffalo numerous times each year. That's why I don't mind driving to Toronto. I e-mailed Noahs to see if I could avoid shipping charges by picking up in Buffalo. No dice. I'd have to pay the minimum trucking charge. That was several years ago. Things may have changed.
My most recent S&G project is done in Weyerhauer's Multiply underlayment. Because it's been sitting half finished for more than 6 months, I've had no reason to visit Homestead yet. Comments from locals like Mr. Know-it-all seem very favorable.
When I do go this spring you can be sure I'll be looking for a brand name. I also may take a scrap of 3mm Bruynzeel with me just for comparison.
Charlie

Venchka
12-13-2004, 11:30 AM
The latest from Noah's Marine:


Noah's has 3 different locations to serve you.

Our American location is:
900 Hertel Blvd, Buffalo, NY.

Please Note that the Buffalo location is a warehouse for shipping only. If you would like to pickup from this location please call us at (416) 232-0522 first to arrange it. For shipping info & rates, please see our shipping page.

Our Toronto location is:
54 Six Point Rd, Toronto, ON, M8Z 2X2
Phone (416) 232-0522 Fax (800) 894-1783 or (416) 232-0522

Monday to Friday 9:00AM - 5:30PM
Saturday 9:00AM - 1:00PM

The Toronto location is a full service retail store and warehouse.

We also have a warehouse in Ladysmith, British Columbia
We inventory most products there (plywoods, epoxies, paints, etc.)
Please call (800) 524-7517 for a free catalog or to place a order.
Website information. Not always the most up to date. Phone ahead.

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

Domesticated_Mr. Know It All
12-18-2004, 08:26 AM
Originally posted by Venchka:


Is the marine plywood from Homestead Hardwood in Ohio of decent quality?

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D I have dealt with Homestead Hardwoods(Vickery,Ohio is less than an hour from where I live) and their quality and service is excellent.
;)

http://www.homesteadhardwoods.com/

Bill Perkins
12-18-2004, 11:29 AM
Wayne how was the staining of the Occume done ?

Venchka
12-18-2004, 12:37 PM
Originally posted by Bill Perkins:
Wayne how was the staining of the Occume done ?Are you asking this Wayne? No clue. I've never stained okoume.

OK, my C.R.S. went into remission. It's been a few years, but the stained okoume was either at Independence Boatworks in Defiance, Ohio or the CLC booth at the WoodenBoat Show 2002 in Rockland, ME. Maybe both. Sorry I can't be more help.

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

[ 12-19-2004, 08:12 PM: Message edited by: Venchka ]