Rudder Installation Question

[Robmill0605]

I'm installing the rudder in my Hacker replica project and would like some opinions please.
The rudder is all bronze and has sealed internal nylon bearings, so there is no packing, and no packing nut. It has a diamator of 2" and a heavy (3/8" thick) base plate on both sides to mount the bolts through the keel. I used a pilot bit and a bevel gauge to drill the correct angle pilot hole. I made a router template and used a guide bushing to mortise the base into the keel so that it would be flush with the hull when installed. I then used a 2 1/8" forstner bit and cut the hole halfway from each side for a very clean hole that is correctly angled as per the lofting.
My question is, did I leave too much of a gap in the hole, and should I fill the space with 5200 upon final installation, or should I just bed the base plates and through bolts with 5200 and leave the hole free of 5200?
I used a slightly oversize bit so that I can remove the rudder in the fututre without beating it out.
Opinions?

[kc8pql]

Re: Rudder Installation Question

I used a slightly oversize bit so that I can remove the rudder in the fututre without beating it out.
Opinions?

I strongly suggest bedding with something other than 5200 or you'll be beating it out no matter what you do about the oversize hole. 5200 is best thought of as a permanent adhesive. I never use it on anything that may need to come apart again. Polysulfide or even Dolfinite would be a better choice.

[jackster]

Re: Rudder Installation Question

Robmill0605,
Sounds like you have things well in hand, This is not so much an opinion as a sating of my curiosity, I'm hoping to learn something.
I don't understand, you cannot remove the rudder without the bearing coming with it? The rudder shafts I am familiar with are separate from their bushing/bearing flange. The advice of kc8pgl sounds right on to me, 5200 is tenacious stuff.

[Robmill0605]

Re: Rudder Installation Question

Robmill0605,
Sounds like you have things well in hand, This is not so much an opinion as a sating of my curiosity, I'm hoping to learn something.
I don't understand, you cannot remove the rudder without the bearing coming with it? The rudder shafts I am familiar with are separate from their bushing/bearing flange. The advice of kc8pgl sounds right on to me, 5200 is tenacious stuff.

I guess i have 5200 on the brain, i meant bedding compound. This rudder has a heavy bronze shaft and fixed upper base plate. Internally, it has nylon bushings and is sealed, so there is no packing nut at all. You drill the hole, bed the base plate plate and fix the inner base plate on the keel and thrtough bolt. You cannot loosen a nut and just pull the shaft. The price you pay for a sealed unit.

[jackster]

Re: Rudder Installation Question

Rob.
(I fell as if I can call you Rob now that we have shared posts. You can call me Rick.)
Does the shaft come in above the waterline?
Since the shaft turns in the bushing, how is the weight of the rudder supported?
What keeps the water out, (assuming entry is below the waterline)?
Just being nosy here. You seem capable of doing this without any help from me, I'm trying to learn at your expense. Thanks. And don't feel obligated to answer, you have work to do.

[Robmill0605]

Re: Rudder Installation Question

Hi Rick,

The rudder is from a company called Marine Hardware in Redmond Wa. This is a link to their catalog ( pdf) . If you look at their inboard tournament ski rudder you will see the set up I have.

http://www.marinehardware.com/downloads/running_gear.pdf

[dmg]

Re: Rudder Installation Question

I'll be doing the same thing shortly. Here is my install plan.

Seal all holes with CPES, multiple coatings- I use cotton bore brushed for 30 cal. or so rifles, to get into all the holes, all the way thru.

I am then applying 2-3 coats of barrier paint, then the bottom paint.

Am installing the lower half with at least Dolphinite/4200. The inside with the same. On the outside flange, I thought about 5200, a little heat applied to the flange would aid in breaking it loose later.

Tried to check your link, but with dial up, and a 5 min. wait, I didn't even get the 1st of 54 whatever on the screen.

You should have an upper rudder shaft bracket, with a lockring to retain the rudder in the boat ?

Dave

[Robmill0605]

Re: Rudder Installation Question

I'll be doing the same thing shortly. Here is my install plan.

Seal all holes with CPES, multiple coatings- I use cotton bore brushed for 30 cal. or so rifles, to get into all the holes, all the way thru.

I am then applying 2-3 coats of barrier paint, then the bottom paint.

Am installing the lower half with at least Dolphinite/4200. The inside with the same. On the outside flange, I thought about 5200, a little heat applied to the flange would aid in breaking it loose later.

Tried to check your link, but with dial up, and a 5 min. wait, I didn't even get the 1st of 54 whatever on the screen.

You should have an upper rudder shaft bracket, with a lockring to retain the rudder in the boat ?

Dave

Yes, the rudder has a locking plate that through bolts through the keel to the base cast into the rudder.
I talked to Marine Hardware yesterday, and the tech guy told me that there is no need to fill the cavity by the larger hole. The heavy bases just need to be in bedding compound along with the bolts. I'm going to order the strut , shaft and stuffing box etc from them also.
The catalog is only online ( I asked) but they seemed very willing to help me even with a small order, and the rudder i have is beautifully made.
It seems to me that if I use all of their running gear it will make the job easiler.
Now I just have to get the strut which is what I'm going to use as a guide to drilling the shaft hole. ( shudder)

[Eric D]

Re: Rudder Installation Question

good luck with the shaft hole.

go slow, get the jig dead on, clean out the hole OFTEN.

PICTURES?????

[dmg]

Re: Rudder Installation Question

Are they also supplying the upper support bracket ( bolted through the center stake of your transom ) ? The rudder shaft lock ring would typically be placed on top of this bracket, and steering quadrant/lever below the top bracket flange. Assuming the center stake is perpindicular to the waterline, it would act as the locating guage for boring the keel for the stuffing box you have now, or will have.

How wide is the center section of your keel ? ( between garboard planks )

I know I have to add cross member(s) to reinforce this area as the stuffing box boring will take out the entire center of the keel. I'm also figuring to use a rudder with 12-15" of shaft length to spread out the port to starboard forces of hard turns at speed.

What type of steering are you going to use ? Mine calls for cables, P & S.
After talking with Chris Smith last weekend, he's pretty much convinced me that a push/pull cable steering would be much better than running cables P & S, connecting to a quadrant on the shaft.

Going to have to go somewhere with high speed wireless to download their cat., have yet to see page 1. They do list a branch about 80-90 mi. from here though, probably quicker to just go there !

Dave

[Robmill0605]

Re: Rudder Installation Question

Are they also supplying the upper support bracket ( bolted through the center stake of your transom ) ? The rudder shaft lock ring would typically be placed on top of this bracket, and steering quadrant/lever below the top bracket flange. Assuming the center stake is perpindicular to the waterline, it would act as the locating guage for boring the keel for the stuffing box you have now, or will have.

How wide is the center section of your keel ? ( between garboard planks )

I know I have to add cross member(s) to reinforce this area as the stuffing box boring will take out the entire center of the keel. I'm also figuring to use a rudder with 12-15" of shaft length to spread out the port to starboard forces of hard turns at speed.

What type of steering are you going to use ? Mine calls for cables, P & S.
After talking with Chris Smith last weekend, he's pretty much convinced me that a push/pull cable steering would be much better than running cables P & S, connecting to a quadrant on the shaft.

Going to have to go somewhere with high speed wireless to download their cat., have yet to see page 1. They do list a branch about 80-90 mi. from here though, probably quicker to just go there !

Dave

There is no upper support bracket, according to Marine hardware, it does not require on. The steering arm is simply mounted on top of the shaft. The keel is 3" wide as this boat is only 16'.
My plan is to use a push/pull sterring cable. This is a replica, that I intead to use, not show for points, so i'm using modern equipment.
I seem to be uable to post pictures since my wife switched to AOL which really agrivates me. I'll have to figure out why.

[pcford]

Re: Rudder Installation Question

There is no upper support bracket, according to Marine hardware, it does not require on. The steering arm is simply mounted on top of the shaft. The keel is 3" wide as this boat is only 16'.

I do runabout restoration. I agree with the guy that said you need an upper support. Without one, it is more likely that you could rip the rear end of the boat out if you hit a deadhead.

(deadhead does not equal a Grateful Dead admirer in my usage here.)

[Robmill0605]

Re: Rudder Installation Question

I do runabout restoration. I agree with the guy that said you need an upper support. Without one, it is more likely that you could rip the rear end of the boat out if you hit a deadhead.

(deadhead does not equal a Grateful Dead admirer in my usage here.)

That's a good point, there isn't one, but I'm going to fabricate one, thanks.

[pcford]

Re: Rudder Installation Question

That's a good point, there isn't one, but I'm going to fabricate one, thanks.

Well, the way these things usually work is for the rudder shaft to come up, pass through the rudder port, pass through a cast bracket which goes down the fasten to the rudder arm then the tiller arm attaches above that.

There are junk runabout hardware companies where you can buy this stuff.