Cutting plywood laps?

[camorama]

So to make a plywood lapstrake boat (Tom Hill's design) will I just cut strips from marine grade plywood, or have to order them pre-beveled and all that? I ask this because I recently dropped the idea of a cedar strip planked canoe do the the cost of bead and coved strips. Anyone know the cost of wood for ply-lapping and where to get it?

Thanks a million

[JimConlin]

Glued lapstrake boats like Tom Hill's require a good quality of plywood. Inquire of marine plywood dealers for BS1088 plywood in sapele, meranti or okoume. It's also not inexpensive. Boats longer than 8 feet require that two or more sheets of plywood be joined by scarphing into longer panels. Then, after the boat's mold is set up, individual pairs of planks are cut to shape and added to the boat. The individual planks have a variety of curvy shapes, but when they're cut in succession from the same sheet, there's remarkably little waste.

I highly recommend Tom's book and the companion video.

[Thorne]

If you go to to the User CP link in the upper left of this window, you can update your location. Then we may find someone who will know what local vendor will have the best prices. Also let us know the thickness of the ply you need.

Good luck!

[Barrett Faneuf]

I can absolutely verify that one does NOT order pre-beveled strips of planking when building in lap ply. As previously stated, due to the curvy and varying shapes of the planks, each pair of planks is fitted to the boat - using Tom's stringer method, this is a fairly straightforward process - then cut from plywood sheets. The edges of the already-installed planks are beveled to accept the next planks, in an on-the-boat process seeing as the bevel changes along the length of the plank. It really is pretty easy, once you get into it.

I'll be happy to point you to pics among my own projects that might help, if you want to drop a PM.

Up in my neck of the woods, I built two boats from 1/4" (6mm) BS1088 Okoume, and one boat from 3/8" (9mm) Okoume. I got the 1/4" for (iirc) $35 a sheet, and the 3/8" two years later for $47 or so. In the case of the latest boat, 5 sheets of plywood went into an 11-foot boat, having 10 planks per side. The plywood was a miniscule portion of the overall cost, as usual ><.

[Canoez]

Boulter Plywood in Somerville, MA and Harbor Supply in Baltimore, MD will cut and scarf marine plywood for you. (i.e. need 2'x12' sections for Tom's Charlotte?) However, it isn't really economical as you need to ship this by common carrier and they charge you out the wazoo (Yes, out the wazoo...) for this service.

We purchased some 4mm Okume from Boulter this year for around $45/sheet. For no additional cost they ripped it down to 2' wide 8' long sheets. Nice. We used some guide blocks cut the the bevel angle we wanted that were placed on the top and bottom of two sheets of ply. We then used a very sharp low-angle block plane to cut the plywood to the angle keeping the heel and toe of the plane on the guide blocks. Worked very well.

The plywood lapstrake construction is much less expensive and much faster construction than cedar strip for small canoes. It's also not as intimidating as it may seem at first. As Barret points out, Tom's method is fairly foolproof and you should achieve good results if you follow his instructions.

[camorama]

Awesome! Yeah, I want to order Tom's book soon. I live in Pearland and don't know where to get marine plywood. That can be figured out. It was the cost that was unknown, really. Anyone know how many sheets the Charlotte called for? I think it's time I quit asking questions and bought some plans....dive in, if you will, before I change my mind on a design again!

[camorama]

Oh by the way, anyone know where to get good plans for a double paddle? It would be neat to have one with some kind of actually effective water stop to keep water from dribbling down one's arms...I've googled it a bit and haven't had much luck.

[Thorne]

Try a search of this forum for the double paddle -- narrow blades are "in", by the way, so don't make one with wide ones...

;0 )

Check out the Duckworks Yahoo group -
Subscribe: dwforum-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

And Duckworksbbs.com is a great supplier of boat hardware, epoxy, etc in your area.
http://www.duckworksbbs.com/

[Canoez]

The Charlotte calls for three sheets of (GOOD QUALITY!!!) 4mm plywood. You'll need about 2/3 of a sheet of underlayment for forms and a few other miscellaneous pieces of stock to make the strongback. You'll also need some good quality stock for the stems and keelson, (I happened to use Spanish Cedar) as well as the gunnels, decks and backrest.

Tom's book recommends Dynel for protecting the garboards, but we've used fiberglass to good effect. (I'm told that he's been known to use it as well.

Brush up on your plane iron sharpening skills - you'll need them for beveling planks.

On the first boat, we used a Porter Cable 690 router to trim the strips to the ribbands, but we kept moving the clamps that held the plywood on the forms. This resulted in some slight irregularity. On the second, we're using a Bosch Colt (A bit pricy, but nice) which has a much smaller base. It's a bit of trade-off in terms of stability, but we don't have to move the clamps and things come out nicely. If you're not into spending hoards of money, Grizzley has a decent trim router with a small base that holds 1/4" shank bits for something like $30...

Oh - Paddles. If you're thinking of a Greenland Style stick, there are some good instructions here:

http://www.qajaqusa.org/Equipment/paddles.html

The instructions by Chuck Holt are great - and free. The Bryan Nystrom book is also excellent. There are many resources for traditional touring paddles as well.

For drip rings and paddle ferrules (To take the shaft apart) the folks at Chesapeake Light Craft have some good ones. (www.clcboats.com)

[Brian Palmer]

I built a Charlotte and used mostly just hand tools and a sabre saw. I even ripped and planed all the ribbands by hand, but I wouldn't recommend that to anybody.

I ordered my plywood from Chesapeake Light Craft in Maryland and they shipped it up here to PA for a reasonable sum. It might have been even cheaper if they cut the sheets in half first (2 ft by 8ft) since you do that for the Charlotte anyway.

I used a hand plane to trim the planks to the ribbands after they were glued in place, so no clamps had to be moved.

Speaking of clamps, I made a bunch of clamps to hold the plank laps out of 4 inch PVC pipe cut into 1 inch lengths and then slit to make a spring clamp.

You might as well plan on learning to scarf the plywood yourself. It is pretty easy with a sharp plane and a good skill to have.

And yes, certainly buy Tom Hills book; his plans for the Charlotte are pretty cryptic without the book.

Alternatively, you can buy a kit for a very similar boat from Chesapeake Lightcraft.

I built a copy of a Herreshoff double paddle, very similar to the double paddle sold by Shaw and Tenney. I used a very small drawing in a back issue of Woodenboat (I'll need ot look it up in the index search if you want the specific back issue).

Have fun! It is a great little boat to build and use.

Brian

[camorama]

Okay this forum is pretty much the most helpful group of people ever. Thanks for all of the great responses...I am fired up about the little boat...and that Greenland paddle is cool!! I'll be back with loads of questions later on once construction starts...probably sooner.

[Andrew]

http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b7ce30b3127ccebdd0ca013b4a00000026100cbt3DNwxs
16ft Tom Hill Charlotte nearing completion. Note 4" dia PVC clamps.

[Uncle Duke]

I want to order Tom's book soon.
Camorama - there is also a video which shows how it's all done - well worth finding. I took a course at the Wooden Boat School from Tom Hill, learned a lot and had a great time. This is a wonderful way to make a boat - you need lots of clamps, though, so you might want to look into Andrew's PVC clamp method - cheaper than buying 30 actual metal ones...
Have fun!

[Barrett Faneuf]

Not that you're likely to need more "oomph" for 4mm ply than the PVC clamps can provide, but if you find you need more persuasive force, plywood slot clamps with wedges work very well. They are also customizable to the plank width required, and totally free if you use scrap ply from building frames, etc.

Here I am clamping 9mm okoume planks in place. The stem twist required a bit of metal clamp persuasion, but the plywood clamps and wedges were perfect to get the right amount of pressure for the epoxy.

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1315/1431853778_adc556536a.jpg

Though I am not using stringers on this boat, the clamps are universally useful. When i built prior boats with stringers, I simply screwed the planks to the stringers temporarily, then filled the holes and painted.

[camorama]

For the clamping, are those just plywood jigs (or pvc) to hold the laps in place, for epoxy bonding? Is that all that bonds them? Tom's book is in the mail...can't wait for the mysteries to unravel. I see you extended his Charlotte to 16 feet...Is there a reason you didn't just build the Atwood Traveler?

[camorama]

By the way, would one reccomend the Greenland paddle for a canoe? Not that I know, but the blade looks narrow....does it push it along well, or is intended for a kayak?

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

By the way, would one reccomend the Greenland paddle for a canoe? Not that I know, but the blade looks narrow....does it push it along well, or is intended for a kayak?

They are just the ticket for a kayak that's 22" wide and cannot be loaded too heavily. For a canoe you have the space to bring along the dog, the kids and the gas grill. Get paddle that will help you move everything along. I paddle a pirogue that's 30" wide and I use a double paddle. The paddle has to be long enough reach the water without raising the off blade high over your head. If you do water will be raining down on you until you get back to shore. Been there done that.
This is the one that didn't work.
http://209.190.4.227/gallery/displayimage.php?album=333&pos=0
This is the one that did.
http://209.190.4.227/gallery/displayimage.php?album=333&pos=2
The bigger blade also worked well when I was dodging boulders in a local river and you can dig for worms with it if the ground isn't too hard.

[Barrett Faneuf]

Yes, the plywood or PVC "jigs" are clamps - anything that holds bits together with force can be called a clamp - which hold the plywood laps together while the epoxy sets up. In my boat, the epoxy is all that holds the planks together once the clamps have been removed.

I'm not familiar with the Charlotte and whether it has stringers or not. Tom's stringer method can either use the stringers as part of a mold, which does not become part of the boat, or the stringers may be structural elements of the boat itself. Looking at the PVC-clamped picture, I would guess that any stringers are purely part of the molding process. But I could be wrong.

[camorama]

Yeah, I love the utility of the sea kayak, Greenland style, but have a horrible vision on flipping over or someone else in one flipping over and drowning or something, i.e., if one were knocked unconcious or something. The canoe does have more space, and the lapstrake is quite attractive....

[Canoez]

In Tom's method, the stringers (Referred to in his book as 'ribbands') are only part of the mold. They're used to get the shape of the planks and to give you something to clamp to.

You can artificially stretch the loom on a Greenland paddle to help reduce how wet you get using it, but then you wind up paddling like a modern touring paddle, not as it was intended to be used. The narrow blades will not let you accelerate fast, but they're low impact and good for keeping up a decent touring pace. Chuck's advice (above) is good.

[almeyer]

Awesome! Yeah, I want to order Tom's book soon. I live in Pearland and don't know where to get marine plywood. That can be figured out. It was the cost that was unknown, really. Anyone know how many sheets the Charlotte called for? I think it's time I quit asking questions and bought some plans....dive in, if you will, before I change my mind on a design again!

You live in Pearland? I live just down the road from you, in Dickinson. Houston Hardwoods has occume and meranti, both marine grade plywoods. Meranti is about half the cost of occume, but for a lightweight canoe, the lighter weight of occume would make it worth the extra money. You can google for the exact address, but they're off of Hwy 290 and 34th street, I think. For paddle instructions and plans, get "Canoe Paddles" by Graham Warren and David Gidmark, which I've seen in some of the larger book stores and is also available from the WoodenBoat Store. Or you can get it through interlibrary loan and copy the pages of the plans you like. The book has patterns for several different styles of single blade paddles, and also a double-blade paddle.
Al

[camorama]

Dickinson, eh? I oughta swing by and see something you've built sometime. Drop a PM if you'd like. I appreciate that advice about wood and paddles...I am really liking the greenland paddle the more I look at it. Heck, its so cheap to make, what have I got to lose? I'll probably make a few different kinds just to experiment....

[JimConlin]

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1315/1431853778_adc556536a.jpg

The plywood slot clamps as shown above in Barrett's post, are especially good for a 'Tom Hill style' setup. You can clamp the plank to both ribbands. They're very easy to work with- I just set a stack of clamps and a small bucket of wedges on the garboard and clamp away. It's very sure and quick.

Barret's trick of using an external batten is good for thin (3-4mm) plywood.

[Steve Lansdowne]

http://www.houstonhardwoods.com/ for marine plywood. You're lucky, as I have to drive 3 hours from Austin to get there.

[almeyer]

http://www.houstonhardwoods.com/ for marine plywood. You're lucky, as I have to drive 3 hours from Austin to get there.

You can't get marine ply in Austin? I wouldn't have thought that. How's the melonseed coming? Any chance you'll have it ready for Lake Bastrop?

Camorama, you should find Tom Hill's book pretty thorough, but easy to understand. And Charlotte looks to be a fine little canoe. She'd do well on Armand Bayou, which I think is one of the nicer places around here to canoe. You might want to build yourself both a double-blade and single blade paddle. When I had my pirogue, I preferred the single blade paddle; it's not as efficient as a double-blade, but I could paddle with less movement, disturbing the wildlife less.

Al

[boylesboats]

Oh by the way, anyone know where to get good plans for a double paddle? It would be neat to have one with some kind of actually effective water stop to keep water from dribbling down one's arms...I've googled it a bit and haven't had much luck.


It would be neat to have one with some kind of actually effective water stop to keep water from dribbling down one's arms...

There is some kind of collar called "drip rings" that help keep water from running down in your sleeves or into boat..
There are several good books out there, that have patterns and shows how to make paddles.. Also, some sites offer free plans or (patterns)
Here is one good book. I like this one the most. http://www.amazon.com/Canoe-Paddles-Complete-Guide-Making/dp/1552095258

[camorama]

You can't get marine ply in Austin? I wouldn't have thought that. How's the melonseed coming? Any chance you'll have it ready for Lake Bastrop?

Camorama, you should find Tom Hill's book pretty thorough, but easy to understand. And Charlotte looks to be a fine little canoe. She'd do well on Armand Bayou, which I think is one of the nicer places around here to canoe. You might want to build yourself both a double-blade and single blade paddle. When I had my pirogue, I preferred the single blade paddle; it's not as efficient as a double-blade, but I could paddle with less movement, disturbing the wildlife less.

Al

You know I read about Armand Bayou, looks like a nice place. I suppose I will try out a few paddles, as making them myself so far proves a great chance to learn with my block plane...plus they're attractive in their various forms.

[Steve Lansdowne]

There is some marine plywood in Austin, but the variety is limited. David Nichols of Arrowhead Boats (free plug for a nice guy) lives and works here, and thus Fine Lumber, the one local distributor, carries marine plywood for him.

[almeyer]

Go ahead and plug David Nichols, I've got his book on traditional sail rigs and in my opinion, it's a good one. Wish this rain would stop, I was hoping to be sniffing fresh varnish this evening.

[Lance]

I'm currently in the process of building a Charlotte canoe to the plans of Tom Hill. I'm just about at the point of taking the canoe off of the building jig and start working on the inside. You will need 3 sheets of 4mm plywood to make four 2' X12' pieces. I bought BS1080 Lloyds Registered marine plywood that measures 2500x1220x4mm. Each sheet cost $41.00 here in Austin, Texas but the quality of the plywood is excellent. I have also found that the VCR tape is a great help in understanding Tom Hill's stringer/ribband method of lapstrake construction. There is a lot of work that goes into making the jig before you can actually start marking and cutting out the strakes. With Tom Hill's method the ribbands determing the shape of each stake. Therefore lining off of the ribbands where they attach to each station mold is very important. You will always be marking out the next strake before attaching the previous one using this method.

[Steve Lansdowne]

Aw, c'mon Lance, post some of those shots of your gorgeous woodworking skills!