Force 10 Diesel VS Sardine

[Chris Gerkin]

I have a small boat and would like heat for cold weather sailing. I am interested in opinions about ease of use and relaibility between a Force 10 diesel heater and a Sardine.

[PeterSibley]

It would depend on your fuel carrying ability , space v tankage .Diesel is very easy to store , wood less so .

Therefore I'd go Sardine ! :):D

[dpincus]

I have a tiny tot, and a friend has the sardine in a writing shed (terrestrial) the sardine is incredibly well made, much superior to my tiny tot. the dry heat from a wood stove is unbeatable, pls it makes the boat smell great.

[Peter Malcolm Jardine]

I have a friend with a force ten, and it seems to throw a lot of heat, but is somewhat finicky about fuel... the burner plugs up, and has to be cleaned regularly...

[Russ Manheimer]

Go with the Sardine. No bias here!

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2097/2237157146_45813d49a8_b.jpg

Enjoy,

russ

[Stiletto]

That's a delightful pic Russ.:)

[Chris Gerkin]

I thought the Sardine was the answer, now I have to get rid of the force 10.

Russ do you need any insulation around the Sardine to keep it from overheating the mounting?

[P.L.Lenihan]

Every time I see that picture Russ, I start craving for food and overcome with a strong desire to start a fire somewhere,doesn't matter where,as long as I can hear and smell the fire. Too bad the internet does not come with a scratch-n-smell feature :)

Out of sincere curiosity, what would be the coldest day you've used the stove and how warm can you get the interior of your lovely SJOGIN's cabin?

Peter

[Russ Manheimer]

Chris,

The base is just copper sheet laid over oak and ply. The cabin side has a piece of copper flashing that's about two inches off the wood. I'll take a picture this weekend and post. What kind of boat will you be installing the stove on?

Peter,

I guess I've been below at the dock when it's 10 to 15 degrees with a light breeze. It gets warm enough to take off your coat and sweater. It's a small cabin so it doesn't take much. If I had a small fan it would get even warmer. Anyway, half the warmth is mental.

I'm sure someone is working on the smell aspect as I we speak. I have a small hank of tarred marlin at work for the occasional sniff of remembrance. Good antidote to fluorescent lights and claim files.

Best,

Russ

[Chris Gerkin]

I am planning a new engine, interior and dinghy for Pendragon over the next six months.

http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii45/Sailingsun1/PendragonA.jpg

[Ian McColgin]

I had a Force 10 diesel cook stove in Goblin back in the '80's which I really liked. It prooved very fussy about fuel quality and even with filtres, if the fuel had too much sulpher it clogged the jets.

Of diesel stoves (and this would go for the heater) it's the only one that actually can be lit quickly. Once running there's no fluid at the compustion site and the preheat can be done with a smear of jellied petrol so it's alone in safety for use underweigh. Since it's an unvented rig (like propane) you want to think about air and with all boats have a CO meter.

Solid fuel, on the otherhand, is far more fun for drying and looking at. Gathered right, the fuel is simply around for the taking. I preferr a soapstone unit as it holds the heat better but you could make a ceramic or metal and fluid heat sump between the stove and any bulkhead for that.

Nice boat.

G'luck

[PDXMichael]

Chris, Pendragon, she's a beauty! I love old plumb bow cutters... Looking to build one myself.

[Russ Manheimer]

Chris,

Pendragon was made for a solid fuel stove. I can see her in a breeze of wind hove to with the jib furled, staysail to weather and a couple of reefs in the main while the the stove and tea are tended to. Finast kind.

What's her provenance? I like the flush deck and the well forward. Where do you sail her?

Best,

Russ

[Jay Greer]

Even on a late afternoon summer sail, a wood stove and a cup of Pussers can be a comforting bit of protection against the sundown damp! Gawd I like your boat!
Jay

[Bob Cleek]

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the fact that diesel and kerosene stoves actually tend to produce moisture and won't dry things out worth a damn. A solid fuel stove, on the other hand, sucks the moisture like nothing else. If you are hunkered down below on a snotty day, it's a dry heat that you want! Additionally, I know lots of folks who get queasy with the constant smell of diesel fuel in a boat. I don't know anybody who ever got seasick smelling honest wood smoke.

[Chris Gerkin]

I thought about buying this boat for almost a year but didn't do it. There was nothing about it that I was shopping for but there was something about it that I really liked and had to have. The boat is only 20 feet on deck, the sprit is about 8 feet. There is only sitting room in the unfinished cabin. The boat came with an outboard which didn't help the lines or balance. The boat is composite and was built in the Eddy and Duff yard in Mattapoisette, MA but not built by the yard. This is the only one made and I don't know the original design. She sails very well and will have a new Oughtred Auk for a tender in several months.

I think the consensus is the Sardine and I have to agree.

Today we sail on lake St Clair in Michigan but I have a mooring in Belfast harbor Maine that I hope to use one day.

Thanks for the comments.

[Northernguy59]

Great thread,

I am looking very hard at a 24' cutter now. If I get her Id love to add a Sardine. The cabin needs to be finnished and I could build it around the Sardine.

where can I buy one and how much $$

Thanks, Dale :cool:

[Jay Greer]

The guy that owns the Navigator Stove Works lives over on Orcas Island. Here is the address:
http://www.marinestove.com/index.htm
Jay

[Russ Manheimer]

Dale,

Here's another pic to get your juices flowing:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2351/2275471168_f4c0760349.jpg

Give Andrew my regards.

Russ

[gert]

for others info:

http://www.marinestove.com/sardineinfo.htm

[Chris Gerkin]

Rus what is the finish on your stove?

[Russ Manheimer]

Chris,

It’s porcelain. NSW has several colors available including red.

Russ

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Oh, just in case there was any doubt, Sardine.

NSW issue very full (and ultra-safe) guidance on installation and insulation.

[Ian McColgin]

On each boat I've used a Dickenson - drip feed diesel with vent and positive exhause - the effect was drying. You have moisture content with all combustion. It's just that wood or coal are always providedd with an exhaust while some diesel stoves (but not heaters) do not.

[H28]

Hello from a new participant! I offer the following observations not in a know-it-all spirit, but simply telling about my stove experiences.

I have heated my H28 ketch over the past 23 years with 3 different systems, but each one has been in the context of a small cast-iron stove with oven from Washington Stove Works (now defunct). She has been in the northwest (Olympia and Seattle) all that time, so winter sailing has been frequent, and even the summer nights are often cold. The stove vents through the overhead via a stainless chimney and a galvanized cap. When I bought the boat, the stove was set up for burning solid fuel. Romantic! I thought. It proved to be a pain. Nice, dry heat, but dirty, needing constant tending, very slow to heat up even just for making coffee, and not capable of burning all night. For fuel, I used either wood scraps or charcoal. Both were bulky, slow to heat up the stove (for both cooking and heating), and inconvenient. Removing the ashes to make room for more wood usually killed the fire, and then you had to go out in the rain to dump the ashes overboard. Driftwood is a nice idea, but around here it's almost always soaked when you need it. Even if it's dry, you have to cut it up on the beach or on board. Coal is not available here in small quantities; perhaps it might be better.

After three years of boat ownership, I set off on a two-months cruise up the Inside Passage (and some outside, too) to the Queen Charlotte Islands. I took out the grate for burning wood, and installed a stainless plate with three Primus burners installed on it, fed with kerosene from a tank via a manifold made of copper tubing. I made the tank from a piece of heavy-walled plastic pipe, with a hose attached to a nipple into the tank, and a bicycle-tire fitting on the other end. I fitted a pressure guage to a T on the manifold, and pumped it up with a bycicle pump. For the first few nights I was jubilant. It was relatively simple to light up (although you had to use alcohol in the priming cups), and you could probably have melted scrap iron in it. Unfortunately, it also cooked its own burners, which died one by one despite all efforts to replace various parts. I removed the burners and stainless plate, and burned wood and charcoal for the rest of the voyage and for several years afterwards.

Eventually, the stove rusted out (it was then over 25 years old). I managed to find an exact replacement in a used-equipment chandlery, except that this one was set up with a pot burner to burn kerosene or diesel. The tank was still there, lurking under the adjacent bunk, so I hooked it up, with a drip valve and a sight glass in the copper tubing. It was recalcitrant about burning evenly, and didn't get very hot, so I fitted a small 12-volt fan to the front of it, with its speed controlled by a small rheostat. This improved the draft, but it was still somewhat sooty on deck, and the tank pressure had to be pumped up from time to time. (I think that an electric fuel pump might have worked better.) The oven got hot enough to bake after about an hour of burning, but could not be regulated dependably.

At this point I still have that system, but I will admit that I use the stove mainly for heating. Cooking has devolved to a gimbaled one-burner affair hanging above it. It runs on propane bottles, and it's damned convenient. This burner replaced my beautiful brass Optimus gimbaled one-burner (which is available free, by the way. I got tired of replacing burner parts and gaskets on the Optimus, and nobody but me has ever had the patience to go through the priming sequence--and I got tired of cleaning soot from all the painted and varnished surfaces within five feet of it.)

However, in the quest for perfectibility, I am still seeking the ideal combination heating and cooking stove. My next stove, this year, will be a Wallas with two-burner ceramic cooktop, and the lid which converts it into a cabin heater by blowing air over the hot cooktop surface. I will run it on kerosene, supplied from a simple plastic tank with a small electric pump. Ignition is automatic, by means of an electic glow plug. It has an enclosed combustion chamber, and vents via a small-diameter flex pipe to the overhead. I will not spring for the oven, as I never use it anyway. A good friend of mine has had this stove for 14 years, and is very happy with it. Yes, it's expensive. Wallas also makes a one-burner version, which might be more suitable for your smaller boat.

In sum, I would say that a solid-fuel stove is okay for occasional use, and very atmospheric. However, the first time you come to anchor after a really cold day of sailing, and wish for a quick cup of something hot, you will find yourself thinking about adding a portable stove of some kind that works faster. And if you are stuck in that boat on the anchor for a day or two while it blows and rains outside, you will find yourself wishing for a heat source that doesn't need frequent tending. And may I say, without being accused of sexism, that any woman in your life will let you know how little she appreciates waiting for a hot drink, and will subsequently be less interested in joining in on your adventures.

The disadvantages of propane are several: the danger of explosion, the need to build a safe enclosure for the tank, the need for a separate cookstove and a separate heater, and the moisture from the unvented cookstove. I'm not sure what the best alternative would be for such a small boat, especially if it doesn't have an electrical system, which is needed for several of the alternatives. However, I don't see the cute little solid-fuel stove as more than decorative, unless your cruising is very limited. I would suggest you go with the Dickinson, and make every effort to emphasize convenience. Comfort and convenience will lead you to use the boat more.

[H28]

Hello from a new participant!

I have heated my H28 ketch over the past 23 years with 3 different systems, but each one has been in the context of a small cast-iron stove with oven from Washington Stove Works (now defunct). She has been in the northwest (Olympia and Seattle) all that time, so winter sailing has been frequent, and even the summer nights are often cold. The stove vents through the overhead via a stainless chimney and a galvanized cap. When I bought the boat, the stove was set up for burning solid fuel. Romantic! I thought. It proved to be a pain. Nice, dry heat, but dirty, needing constant tending, very slow to heat up even just for making coffee, and not capable of burning all night. For fuel, I used either wood scraps or charcoal. Both were bulky, slow to heat up the stove (for both cooking and heating), and inconvenient. Removing the ashes to make room for more wood usually killed the fire, and then you had to go out in the rain to dump the ashes overboard. Driftwood is a nice idea, but around here it's always soaked when you need it. Even if it's dry, you have to cut it up on the beach or on board. Coal is not available here in small quantities; perhaps it might be better.

After three years of boat ownership, I set off on a two-months cruise up the Inside Passage (and some outside, too) to the Queen Charlotte Islands. I took out the grate for burning wood, and installed a stainless plate with three Primus burners installed on it, fed with kerosene from a tank via a manifold made of copper tubing. I made the tank from a piece of heavy-walled plastic pipe, with a hose attached to a nipple into the tank, and a bicycle-tire fitting on the other end. I fitted a pressure guage to a T on the manifold, and pumped it up with a bycicle pump. For the first few nights I was jubilant. It was relatively simple to light up (although you had to use alcohol in the priming cups), and you could probably have melted scrap iron in it. Unfortunately, it also cooked its own burners, which died one by one despite all efforts to replace various parts. I removed the burners and stainless plate, and burned wood and charcoal for the rest of the voyage and for several years afterwards.

Eventually, the stove rusted out (it was then over 25 years old). I managed to find an exact replacement in a used-equipment chandlery, except that this one was set up with a pot burner to burn kerosene or diesel. The tank was still there, lurking under the adjacent bunk, so I hooked it up, with a drip valve and a sight glass in the copper tubing. It was recalcitrant about burning evenly, and didn't get very hot, so I fitted a small 12-volt fan to the front of it, with its speed controlled by a small rheostat. This worked pretty well, but it was still somewhat sooty on deck, and the pressure had to be pumped up from time to time. (I think that an electric pump might have worked better.) The oven got hot enough to bake after about an hour of burning, but could not be regulated dependably.

At this point I still have that system, but I will admit that I use the stove mainly for heating. Cooking has devolved to a gimbaled one-burner affair hanging above it. It runs on propane bottles, and it's damned convenient. This burner replaced my beautiful brass Optimus gimbaled one-burner (which is available free, by the way. I got tired of replacing burner parts and gaskets on the Optimus, and nobody but me has ever had the patience to go through the priming sequence--and I got tired of cleaning soot from all the painted and varnished surfaces within five feet of it.)

However, in the quest for perfectibility, I am still seeking the ideal combination heating and cooking stove. My next stove, this year, will be a Wallas with two-burner ceramic cooktop, and the lid which converts it into a cabin heater by blowing air over the hot cooktop surface. I will run it on kerosene, supplied from a simple plastic tank with a small electric pump. Ignition is automatic, by means of an electic glow plug. It has an enclosed combustion chamber, and vents via a small-diameter flex pipe to the overhead. I will not spring for the oven, as I never use it anyway. A good friend of mine has had this stove for 14 years, and is very happy with it. Yes, it's expensive.

In sum, I would say that a solid-fuel stove is okay for occasional use, and very atmospheric. However, the first time you come to anchor after a really cold day of sailing, and wish for a quick cup of something hot, you will find yourself thinking about adding a portable stove of some kind that works faster. And if you are stuck in that boat on the anchor for a day or two while it blows and rains outside, you will find yourself wishing for a heat source that doesn't need frequent tending. And may I say, without being accused of sexism, that any woman in your life will let you know how little she appreciates waiting for a hot drink, and will subsequently be less interested in joining in on your adventures.

The disadvantages of propane are several: the danger of explosion, the need to build a safe enclosure for the tank, the need for a separate cookstove and a separate heater, and the moisture from the unvented cookstove. I'm not sure what the best alternative would be for such a small boat, especially if it doesn't have a real electrical system, which is needed for several of the alternatives. However, I don't see the cute little solid-fuel stove as more than decorative, unless your cruising is very limited. I would suggest you go with the Dickinson, and make every effort to emphasize convenience.

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

I think you may perhaps have been discouraged by a cheap solid fuel stove.

The Sardine is most certainly not a decorative toy; it is well made with heavy, close fitting castings and a full firebrick lining (most important!)

I have no trouble keeping my present Shipmate "in" over night; it only needs stoking maybe three times during the 24 hours.

We burn "smokeless fuel" i.e. coke. Wood is a waste of time.

Far from waiting, cold and miserable, for the cabin to warm up when bringing to at the end of a day's sail, we keep the stove going at sea - nice warm cabin all the time!

[Zane Lewis]

My 2 cents.
When we put Dad's 8 ton 34' Yawl in the water we had a solid fuel skipper type I think it was. We put in a 1/2" layer of insulating board covered with slate on the back, sides and bottom. This was great in the winter with the dry heat but any flued gas or liquid heater would also do this. We would use Pine cones to get quick heat as they generate a lot of heat quickly and lite easly.
It could be damped down over night just fine, no problem keeping it alight.

Down sides.
Smokey until it got a draft up.
Struggled to get enough heat to boil water or properly brown a roast.
Would simmer things well. Generated too much heat for our climate even in winter when trying to heat water.

We went back to a gas oven and hob. Also simpler with iregular crews. Most people have used gas and understand the sequence.
1-Turn gas solenoid on, 2-Turn on gas match, 3-Turn on element and hold for 5 seconds.
Off. 1-Turn of gas solenoid then 2-turn off element when flame goes out.

We would like to fit one of those little 10" square solid fuel heaters for winter but have to look at a space for it and consider the location of the flue and where our dinghy sits on the cabin top.
Cheer's Zane

ED to add. Looks just like the Halibut but with out the glass fire door. so must have been a shipmate.

[mariner2k]

My 2 cents, and to each his own of course, but I've had a Dickenson for about 12 years and I love it. Well, vented, dry heat odorless and I run it by gravity feed off of the main diesel.

[S/V Laura Ellen]

I've got a propane Force 10 heater (probably never used) and would like to convert it to diesel. Force 10 sold a kit to convert from diesel to propane but not the other way. Ant suggestions?

[Russ Manheimer]

Andrew,

The Sardine does not have a fire brick lining. I think the Little Cod and Halibut do and are suitable for coal (and I assume coke).

No question coal/coke are more efficient but certainly less fragrant. I'll stick with the odd whiff of cedar and oak.

Best,

Russ

[Northernguy59]

Hey russ,

Im wondering what you have in the flying pan and mug ??

Dale

[Russ Manheimer]

Dale,

Sizzling in the pan are a couple of slices of a stuffed hot sausage and provolne bread. Water's coming to the boil in the mug for tea with a healthy slug of Mt. Gay rum.

Breakfast of champions!

Russ

[Paul Stohlman]

The Sardine and Little Cod are built the same way, no fire brick, sand on the bottom.

I'll find out about the Halibut when I pick up my new one soon. (It will burn coal though.)

I'm sold on solid fuel, my bad luck stories all involve diesel and kerosene.

I do have a small camp stove for that quick cuppa.

[Alex Low]

All I know - and its not much - is that a wood stove wins every time. Dry heat and small enough to flash up in a few minutes with the smell of cedar in the air... c'mon. And its not like you can stop off in the woods underway to pick up some kerosene. I was on a Haida 26' for a few months with a super DIY welded stove that made the cabin toasty in about 10 minutes - and the best thing is your girlfriend doesn't tell you that you smell like diesel after coming home from working on the boat. Plus, if you want the comforts of home... stay there!

Alex

p.s. here is my original sardine awaiting the cutter to be built around it:

http://www.dc004.com/alexlow.jpg

[Jay Greer]

Well, if you aren't going to build a boat around it, I could use it in my shop office.
Jay

[Excalibur]

You guys keep saying that the solid fuel stove gives "dry heat". I assume that is because the moisture from the burning wood/coal/coke goes up the chimney. Now for an unvented liquid stove, I can see how the moisture would be a problem. But isn't the force 10 vented as well? Doesn't a vented liquid stove give dry heat too? Since I have no experience with either system, I'm just trying to learn here.

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

You are absolutely right.

My argument for the solid fuel stove is just that there is less to go wrong, and / or it goes wrong less spectacularly, when you are not looking at it.

[Ian McColgin]

To repeat myself and others with experience with diesel stoves - of course they give dry heat. The H2O, CO, CO2, sulfates and all that go up the stack, just like they do with coal, charcoal and wood units.

On one boat I lived with, successivly, wood, coal and lastly a Dickenson. All nice a dry. Wood was hard to keep going untended for more that 12-18 hours but had the advantage of being easy and fast to get lit. Coal took more work to get going but the henhouse heater I'd marinized was good for being tended once in 24 hours. It would burn longer - like 40+hours - but that fire could not be brought back after a simple grinding and reloading.

I was wintering in Boston and this was heat that had to keep going. The dust finally forced me to try oil and I love it. The Dickenson can take about an hour of moderate attention to get going but once there, it will run and run and run so long as you've fuel. I'd get it going in October and not shut it down till April except on the odd Saturday or Sunday when the weather was suitable for a sail and even then I'd run the stove unless it was rough.

The Dickenson literature says not to leave the boat untended with the unit running. No one I know much worried about that as no one's figured out how to get the fuel outside the burner without turning the boat over and shaking it. However, you'd not want to leave it alone if you've skimped in any way on the clearances around the stove.

Final touch, check out the "ecofan." This lovely stove-top fan works by generating electricity from a temperature difference between semi-conductors. It will take the hot air at stove top and push it all over. Incredibly nifty. Smart folk up above 48 north. Eh?

Edited to add on this moisture bit: There's a world of difference in the needs of the casual sailor looking for a little evening warmth or the liveaboard in a temperate place and a liveaboard with snow on the decks, subfreezing temperatures and ice around the boat. In the latter case, the drying effect of winter on the boat is serious. I never resorted to introducing more moisture than came about by showering and cooking, but the problem in winter is not getting rid of moisture, it's keeping enough.

[Russ Manheimer]

No question that vented stoves provide "dry" heat and if I lived aboard (and had a boat large enough to do so) I'd lean toward some kind of oil stove. But as Ian states, for my "casual" or occasional fires I'll take a wiff of cedar smoke over kero or diesel fumes any day.

Happy burning to all.

Russ