Mystic Seaport's Whitehall

[John A. Campbell]

Mystic Seaport has a beautiful 16' 4" Whitehall in their livery and I understand it can be found on page 199 of Howard Chapelle's book "American Small Sailing Craft" of which I now have copy on order. I also understand large size plans can be obtained from the Smithsonian and I am now in communication with them. My question is: Have any of you built this specific boat and if so, what do you think about it......rowing and sailing qualities, stability, manuverability, etc? Also, got any photos? I have heard that Ian Oughtred has drawn up something that looks a lot like this Whitehall but it has some rocker in the keel and perhaps other changes which makes it more manuverable. Would this be the 15-foot Acorn skiff? As always, comments are more than appreciated. Incidentally, on a previous thread, I was determined to put a small engine in my "Piccolo" sailing canoe but have since thought better of that and will leave her just as she is......paddling & sailing only!

[Don Maurer]

I have rowed that boat at Mystic. It is somewhat tender, easily driven and tracks very well. I don't think I would want to sail it, though.

[uncas]

John...I am sure tha the Mystic Archives has them as well. May be an easier source...Gov. beauracracy you know. Give them a call. I have always found them to be extremely helpful.

[seayou77]

There is an allusive book on this subject. I have been thru the bookstore thoroughly only just know of its existance. Outa print methinks.
Seen a keel member laid with transome in a friends shop. May be a while before she is wet tho sailing was the intended use. 5/8 thick planks, designed as a work horse to lighten vessel as opposed to ferrying passengers. Lovely design we need more of these!

[John A. Campbell]

Uncas, Mystic Seaport (ships plans dept.) does not have plans for the Whitehall.....I was really surprised to hear that......they referred me to the Smithsonian.....said they had "large size" drawings so I wrote them asking for ordering info, price, etc.

[Bayboat]

At Schooner Boat Works we are building the Bailey Whitehall, which I think is the one you are inquiring about. The plans & offsets were easily obtained from the Smithsonian. You can send for the catalog or order the set of plans by phone. Construction is straightforward and not particularly complicated. Steam bending is required at the bow and at the tuck. We changed the planking to lapstrake, which is working out well. Also we will not do the fancy sliding seat or custom oarlocks, so she won't be a true Bailey. Bronze screws in the frames and copper clench nails between. We will use her as a fancy tender and captain's gig for the Denis Sullivan, the 100' three-masted schooner we built a few years ago. We probably won't sail her--for the time being we are not installing a centerboard. She was designed as a fairly fast pulling boat.

[John A. Campbell]

Don, I presume that the Whitehall, being somewhat tender, means she is also somewhat unstable as a sailboat? If I build this boat, I would only use her in light airs and mostly for shoreline exploration in fresh water lakes in Texas with an occasional trip across the lake under sail. I am not at all interested in "hiking out".......I wouldn't like it and I know damned well my lady companion sure wouldn't like it! Perhaps the Duck Trap Wherry at 15 feet would be the better choice? After all, she does have a wineglass transom which is a MUST and appears to be a little more stable than the Whitehall. I also have plans for the Newfoundland Trap Skiff but my shop space is 16' X 24' plus an "add-on" of 12' X 12' to make the shop 36 feet long and all of it with an 8-foot ceiling and I'm not sure I can build the NTS in this limited space.......comments anyone? I really love the NTS but looks like I would be bumping into lots of stuff in the process of building her.

[Don Maurer]

John,

Compared to my 13'6' x 4'6" Iain Oughtred Tammie Norrie, also a wineglass transom boat but with a firmer bilge, the whitehall was tippier, but less work to row. It would probably stiifen up some before the gunwale went under, but as a novice sailor, I don't think I would want to find out. In comparison, the Tammie Norrie will heel when under sail, but it has never been close to putting the gunwale under. My experience with her has only been in light winds. The Tammie Norrie is a good boat if you want to sail and row and have traditional looks.
http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=4285931557&idx=3

[StevenBauer]

Wow Don, she sure is pretty! Can we share these pics with those that don't do Imagestation?

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid134/pbe78e76533dcec51d154588072fe8ae3/f7747257.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid134/p7a771d6d851a959b3b27da95a701e3e5/f7747252.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid134/pd289afefaceec3d2e7524d9f7198b66e/f7747254.jpg

[John A. Campbell]

Don, she is indeed a beautiful boat.....and first class craftsmanship. I've still got some more work to do on "Piccolo"......painting and varnishing mainly.....but the Tammie Norrie really looks like a good prospect and will move her right up there beside the Ducktrap Wherry. I would have liked to have seen her a bit longer......around 15 - 17 feet.... but that's not important enough to risk diminishing her sailing and rowing qualities. Thanks very much for the response.

[Don Maurer]

Thanks for the kind remarks. Oughtred is rumored to have a 16' version of the Tammie Norrie available now. I don't know if it is in his new catalog. You may have to contact him directly for information.

[BDann]

You might want to check out the Arch Davis Penobscot 17. I am getting ready to start on one myself, and it has a similar look to what you are after.

Brian

[ssor]

I have John Gardner's building classic small craft International marine pub. 1981 forth printing. 17' whitehall pulling boat lines and offsets. If that's any help I can post it.

[ssor]

I can't get out without saying something.

[Venchka]

Originally posted by John A. Campbell:
...my shop space is 16' X 24' plus an "add-on" of 12' X 12' to make the shop 36 feet long and all of it with an 8-foot ceiling and I'm not sure I can build the NTS in this limited space.......That's a HUGE amount of space. The NTS is only about 19' LOA. I was in a shop smaller than that where a fellow built Iain's Grey Seal. I would kill for that much space to build a boat in. You are very fortunate.

SKUA is the enlarged Tammie Norrie. Write to Iain for details. It's in the 16'-17' range and I assume narrow enough on the waterline to row tolerably well.

Based on my personal experience and talking to others, Iain Oughtred's boats sail circles and rings around a lot of the old designs which were primarily pulling boats. Iain's boats sail first and the narrow ones row as well as anyone could ask. A genuine case where new is better than old.

I almost forgot. That is the best example of Tammie Norrie I have seen. Cheers!

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

[John A. Campbell]

Wayne, have you seen photos of "Skua"? I have looked through Duck Flat Boats and there is no picture or mention of Skua but when I wrote them and asked about the boat, they acknowledged it did exist. Anybody out there in Forumland built or have photos of a Skua? I am still intending to build a sailboat equipped with small inboard engine (like the 7 hp Farymann diesel) and Duck Flat suggested the "Fulmar" as a good possibility and I really like this boat but I also put a lot of emphasis on the wineglass transom which Fulmar does not have and Skua apparently does.

[Bob Cleek]

You may wish to consider the Herreshoff Columbia "lifeboat" (dinghy). There is a good book, likely still in print (WB store may have it) called "Building the Herreshoff Columbia Lifeboat" or something like that. Step by step instructions from an oral history taken from a boatbuilder who worked at Herreshoff Manufacturing Co. This boat is very similar to a Whitehall, but modified for sailing as well. It has a centerboard. Relatively easy to build if you follow directions. The lines in the book are for a 12.5 feet long model. However, it is easy enough to shrink or stretch the design by adding a station or two in the middle, as the Herreshoff factory generally did. You could order them by the foot! Having studied as much as I could find on Whitehalls, I wouldn't consider one for sailing purposes.

[Alan D. Hyde]

Thanks, Bob.

Good to see you around.

Alan

[John A. Campbell]

Thanks, Bob, for the reply and I shall try to find the Herreshoff Lifeboat Book. The more I look at Don's Tammie Norie, the better I like it. This decision as to what to build next is really frustrating to me......so many beautiful boats......and it seems impossible to find exactly what I'm looking for. The Tammie Norie really looks good......love that wineglass transom......if Skua is the same boat, only stretched out a bit, I think my decison will be made.

[Venchka]

Originally posted by John A. Campbell:
... The Tammie Norie really looks good......love that wineglass transom......if Skua is the same boat, only stretched out a bit, I think my decison will be made.Communicate directly with Iain Oughtred. He is the best source for information about his designs. As I understand it, SKUA isn't even in his latest catalog. He will know if the boat has been built and where. Good luck!

SKUA isn't listed at Classic Marine either.

PS-Ask him for me if Wee Seal II has been built and where.

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

[ 03-19-2005, 12:28 PM: Message edited by: Venchka ]

[Venchka]

Shame on me for believing what I read.

From Moray at Classic Marine about 2 minutes ago:


Spoke with IO yesterday on Skua which currently has the status of a good idea - ie the plan is neither drawn, priced nor available.

WS Mk2 almost certainly won't have been built yet - the plan is only 6 months old. Ther will be a bill of materials with the plan, and there is a suggested hardware list on the website. As for the study plan - another good idea which I have mentoned to IO a number of times - why not add your voice to the chorus?

Hope this helps

Moray
There you have it.

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

[Roger Long]

I built one of these boat years ago and redrew the lines to make the hull, especially the transom, a bit more refined. It's the same boat within half an inch. There are some overly complex construction details but they could easily be omitted. The line were very accurately drawn and needed little fairing when I lofted them.

It's a great rowboat and a so, so sail boat. You can see pictuers of the one I built here:
Ship Chandler's Boat (http://home.maine.rr.com/rlma/Boats.htm#Whitehall)

If you think you want to build this boat, you should take a look at my plans. I know from having refaired the Chappell lines that you'll save a lot of agony in the lofting step.

[John A. Campbell]

Wayne, I, too, got the word from Moray that the Skua was not available at this time....such a disappointment it was. I ordered Oughtred's catalog yesterday (before I saw Moray's note or your reply to this thread) along with a letter inquiring about Skua.

Roger, I just sent you an email inquiring about how I could get a look at your plans for the Ship Chandler's boat.....thanks!

Don (or anyone else) , regarding the "Tammie Norrie", do you see any risk to stretching her out to around 16 feet by proportionately increasing the spacing between moulds to make her come out to that length? I see various comments through the pages of the Forum that stretching a boat this way (within reason) is considered acceptable but surely the hull design figures in quite heavily in that decision. Or perhaps I should be directing this question to Mr. Oughtred?

[Venchka]

Originally posted by John A. Campbell:
...Don (or anyone else) , regarding the "Tammie Norrie", do you see any risk to stretching her out to around 16 feet by proportionately increasing the spacing between moulds to make her come out to that length? I see various comments through the pages of the Forum that stretching a boat this way (within reason) is considered acceptable but surely the hull design figures in quite heavily in that decision. Or perhaps I should be directing this question to Mr. Oughtred?John,

As far back 2001 I asked Iain about stretching Tammie Norrie-having him do it, not me all by myself. He said then that 15'-6" or so (the letter is at home-working from less than perfect memory) would be possible. Obviously we've been asking for this boat for some time. Build a fire under him! smile.gif

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

[Don Maurer]

You may need to modify the centerboard case. In the original plans it is supported by the 2 thwarts. If you stretch the boat, the centercase would get awfully long and ruin some of the best real estate. I would also add another floor piece to keep the spacing at about 2 feet. With the added buoyancy, the boat may feel a little tippy unless there were proportionately more ballast or crew weight. As designed, the strakes require about 14 1/2' - 15' planks as I recall. You would might want to limit your length to what can be gotten out of 2 scarphed plywood sheets, or at least lay out the planks so the scarphs are not in areas where twisting will be required.