On Shopping for Information...

[NormMessinger]

Shut down the forum, close the libraries, stop the magazine subscriptions. May as well close the schools.

Sorry about this folks. It belongs in the bilge but some bilge water sometimes slosshes up here as well.

[Scott Rosen]

?

[G. Schollmeier]

?? Now what did I miss?

[Art Read]

See the "Resourcinal.... What gives?" thread...

[TomRobb]

You missed Pearls of Wisdom by George Roberts. In doing so, you have done well, Grasshopper.

BTW, where did the NA/PE rants go?

[George Roberts]

My statement was

"I am always opposed to people shopping for information. In general, those people have a plan and they shop until they get validation from some source. I find that practice to be less than worthwhile."

Sounds like most of us, right?

[G. Schollmeier]

My problem is I shop and shop and still can’t find anything to rationalize my thoughts. :rolleyes:

George your number says you have been here a while, I can’t remember welcoming you aboard. So, welcome. Your posts are like black coffee, which can be good when not bitter. Please don’t shut up, the audience here are all shopping.

Gary :D

[George Roberts]

G. Schollmeier ---

Thanks for the welcome. Thanks for the advice.

[JimConlin]

Is Norm hearing voices in his Rice Crispies again?

[Tom Lathrop]

Gary,

You get the 2003 Gandhi award for tolerance. ;)

[George Roberts]

Norm ---

I accept my responsibility for contribuiting to the bilgewater. In the future I will try to give my opinion and then walk away.

So which little bugger shows true remorse ... ) :(

[Tar Devil]

If I get this right, you consulted a "well-known naval architects company" and you want to not follow their advice.

If you believe that the people here are more reliable, then you should not have consulted that "well-known naval architects company." This was the response that affected me much like it did Norm.

This is a gathering of friends with a common pleasure in wooden boats. There is much knowledge here, and if I was given information contrary to conventional wisdom and experience - regardless of degrees, licenses or accreditaion, this is the first place I would come.

Later,

Phil

[Mrleft8]

Hell..... My father is an architect, and I RARELY follow his advise. I can get SO much better advise from people who have done less than he has done, for much less time!

[Figment]

So, what're you really trying to say, Doug? ;)

[Ian G Wright]

I like to think about stuff for a while, five or ten years say, Pros, cons and alternatives, then when I've nearly got things sorted I ask for opinions and advice. It's strange that even the opinions I disagree with are just as useful to making a final decision as the ones I agree with,,,,,,,
The system works for me and I recommend its use to others. First think, then ask. And always say thank you.

IanW

[Rocky]

That's true of this forum too, Ian.

[George Roberts]

Tar Devil ---

Now, I understand your objection.

It is one thing to come here with a guestion or problem and seek advice. I applaud those who do.

It is another thing to come here, because you disagree with a professional's advice.

I worked for several years with a group of 500 professional engineers. Whenever any of them was asked a question, they gave an honest response. Often neither side, the questioner or the responder, liked the answer, but both sides lived with it.

For anyone to ask a NA for a profesisonal opinion and then come here seeking an opposing opinion is as I say "less than worthwhile."

------

[tjdono]

Hey All
I build houses for a living. Custom homes for clientele with big bucks for the really high priced architects. These "professionals" get it wrong ALOT. ;) The same goes for structural engineers. I good bit of time on most jobs is phone work during framing correcting things that work on paper but don't work in the field.
My point here is not to hack on professionals...but to remind everyone that having a college degree hanging on the wall does not cure the person of the disease of humanity. Humans make mistakes and often make decisions based upon their gut opinion of the individual they are giving advice to.
You know who I talk to first before making the call to the architect or engineer? You got it...other carpenters. I usually (95% of the time) have the solution to the problem before the phone gets off my belt. Who knows better how to build a house than the carpenter? tongue.gif My pet peeve with both architects and structural engineers is that they are book smart rather than jobsite smart. I think they need to apprentice under a journeyman carpenter, on a jobsite, for a year before being liscened. End of rant! By the way....God Bless America for the right to rant freely!! :D

[NormMessinger]

Those were my daddy-in-law's sentiments ezakaly, TJ.

[holzbt]

Thank you tjd. Since this relates to the resorcinol thread- My guess is that the person at the well respected NA office probably never actually used or has even seen resorcinol glue. In over 25 years of boat work I've never seen this type glue become soft. Why would I believe something that is so contrary to my own experience and all written accounts. Just because someone is licensed does not guarantee that they are not either A) A complete idiot who is very good at taking tests. B) Someone with a great deal of "book smarts" with little to no practical experience. C) Someone who is very competent at a particular field who has ventured into a somewhat related but different field. This last is a pitfall of many engineers that I know. Those who think they have all the answers are most prone to this. After all, since they are so smart about "X" how could they be any less smart about "Y".

Shopping for information makes perfect sense. Another check is to search past responses of a particular poster. This will give you a pretty good idea if this persons response is to be seriously considered or not.

[John Blazy]

Well said Tjdono!!! I was just explaining to my wife the great chasm of hands-on knowledge that separates architects from builders.

George, you seem to think that professional boat designers/builders opinions are never to be questioned by us "non-professional" boatbuilders. Did it ever occur to you that although boatbuilding and designing may not be the day job/career of many here, they just may possibly have knowledge in their actual professional vocation that just may possibly be superior in certain, limited areas than said professional NA or builder?
I may not have much experience with resorcinol glue, but I do have two patents in polymer science and one in design, and have forgotton more about the physics of adhesives - hands-on and cerebral - than most here have learned simply by the necessity of my vocation as the inventor/sole developer of a complete glass/plastic laminate technology and all the physical testing that requires.

But I guess in your view, my opinions don't hold much water cuz I'm not an "accredited" professional.

[George Roberts]

et. al. ----

I will make only a few comments on your specific realtionships with your professionals. I don't know enough about your situations. I am sure that you believe you were right. If all the facts were given, I am sure I would believe that the professional were right.

Certainly, a lot of people here are as good as or better than professionals. Whenever I use the words professional, NA, and PE, I include people who by experience have the knowledge required of a professional. I am not biased for or against formal recognition.

In the case at hand, it turns out that many people agreed with the professional and many did not. So how do we know who to believe?

[On Vacation]

Spent a large portion of my life making engineer drawings and designs work in open water and for the novice to be able to fix it, when it breaks. A paper is just a paper, when it comes to a boat, probably more times than not. And George, the approach you take to "look down" on many here shows. I quit a long time ago, attempting to reply to your logic. Sorry, but this is one reason I have stayed away from threads you have attempted to share "your" knowledge.

There is really nothing wrong with coming here to read, get opinions, chat, and sort out items of topic. Just because a person buys a set of plans, doesn't make it perfect for one and all. A set of plans is just one persons interpretation of a design that one wishes to sell. Its called marketing. Yes liability is an issue, but the builder has some responsibility to insure saftey for all that chooses to step aboard.

This board has a lot of both ends of the spectrum. I was chastized for my opinion on the chines. I was also warned that I should remove it. Tripping is a big problem in small craft. Application and angles are 99 percent of the problem when it comes to working. Not one piece of paper will give you this knowledge.

[Ian G Wright]

,,,,,,, on the other hand while some professionals have a wide and comprehensive knowledge of the area in which they work you don't need to step very far outside that area to find huge chasms of ignorance which, because of professional pride perhaps, they are unable to admit.
I know personally two very professional boatbuilders who use only epoxy to build their boats, and very good boats they are too. But why would I ask their opinion on boats built in another way using other adhesives? Answer,,,, I wouldn't. They will have an opinion, certainly, and as it happens I know what that opinion is: anyone building a boat using the old plank on frame methods is foolish, not to say mad.
A boat designer, Shipyard trained, and a member of all our UK professional bodies of very long standing, has been in business for forty years, has written a number of books on traditional boat building and has many designs of Gaff rigged craft to his credit. I know him well. We are members of the same clubs and have bought each other drinks. Would I build a boat to his plans? No I would not. I think his boats are ugly, underpowered and slow.
So I choose another Professional.
Anyway, boat design is not a profession, it is a science and an art. Boatbuilding is not a profession or an art, it is a craft and a trade.
And Sailing is not a sensible means of transport, it is fun,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
,,,,and I am wandering,,,,,,,,time to stop.

IanW.

[ 03-22-2003, 04:03 PM: Message edited by: Ian G Wright ]

[ishmael]

Must a struck a nerve, that's the most loquacious I think I've ever seen Ian. Not to mention correct, but then he's usually that also.

[Ruaridh]

Obviously I've been following this thread as it is the 'child' of the one I started.
At first I was a little hurt at George's put-down of my question, then I became a bit angry and indignant, but now I'm just viewing the whole thing with wry amusment!
But I'm glad that everyone feels moved enough to have this kind of discussion about how people might learn things, it makes this forum all the more worthwhile.
The funny thing is I kind of agree with George in a way. It is indeed foolish to ignore someone's advice just 'cos you don't like it.
But the point here is I DIDN'T COME HERE BECAUSE I DISAGREED WITH THE PROFESSIONAL'S ADVICE!!!. I was just curious. And a little embarrassed to ask them to further explain what they meant because I'm not really anywhere near starting to build the boat.
Now, some of you (George included probably) will probably write me off as an armchair-fantasist-boatbuilder of no real worth. However, I do have an old wooden folkboat that I've taken from a near bonfire job to a seaworthy and respectable-looking state, I spent an apprenticeship in a boatyard which dealt with a lot of wooden craft (admittedly as a mechanic, but in a small yard you help on all kinds of jobs), and I've got enough sea-miles under my belt to humbly say that I know one end of a boat from the other.
So I've always felt a good camaraderie with the people on this forum (up until now anyway ;) ) and have felt that nobody really minded discussing or imparting their knowledge to an intellegently-asked question.
I think what kicked all this off was the tone of George's initial reply. If he had said "do you actually intend to go ahead and do the said thing, or do you simply wish to know more about the given subject?" (as most people took implicitly) then no-one would have batted an eyelid. But unfortunately for George, and me, and everyone else who's spent time when they probably should be doing something else on this topic, George ASSUMED he knew what I was up to.
Now, in my book, assuming things is every bit as much of a cardinal sin as not listening to professional advice! You know the old adage - never assume becuse it makes an AS* out of U and ME :D :D and in this case it certainly has.
Of course this all might sound like me back-pedalling to try and make myself look better but you'll have to make your own minds up about that.

P.S. Thank you very much to everyone who has 'defended' me (that's waht it feels like from here anyway smile.gif ) on this subject, and also to all those who provided information on the original topic.

Ruaridh.

[NormMessinger]

Now, some of you (George included probably) will probably write me off as an armchair-fantasist-boatbuilder of no real worth.

HA! If we did that we would have to write off a bunch of us now wouldn't we. Vicarious building is fun and a heck of a lot cheeper. So, go for it.

[George Roberts]

Dave Fleming ---

I agree with you. I believe that is what the NA said. I am only saying that some people gave just the opposite advice.

(I even tick off people when I agree with them smile.gif )

Ruaridh ---

I write very few people off. (You might have seen where I wrote off one recently. An engineer at that.)

Looking at your original post, had you left out the reference to the NA, I would not have made the comment about shopping being less than worth while. And the discussion would have evolved about the same way - a bunch of people saying you can and a bunch of people saying you cannot.

----

I will agree with Norms comments just above.

Have fun doing the work.