Starting an El Toro

[Jim S]

I am new to this forum and new to boat building (although I have done some woodworking in the past). Having spent many years just thinking about building a boat I finally decided that 2008 would be the “Year of the Boat”. The next decision was what size boat. I thought one about eight feet long seemed not too intimidating and most likely to get finished this year. So, after doing some research, both online and in the real world, I chose the El Toro (8’ sailing pram) as my project (with a few modifications like adding buoyancy chambers). The fact that it is a sailboat rather than a tender or rowboat was the deciding factor. I also looked at the Nutshell Pram, D4/D5, Eastport Pram, etc. The El Toro’s solid wood keelson and chines, while challenging, also appealed to me.

Has anyone here built an El Toro? If so, do you have any advise?

I have been going over the plans and have started making the jig.

A few basic questions:

The plans call for Weldwood glue. Should I go with that or use epoxy or something else?

I do not think I will coat the hull with epoxy but finish with paint and varnish. Good idea or not?

What type of marine plywood is suitable?

Thanks for any suggestions. I’m sure I’ll have more questions as I get into it.

[Thorne]

I wouldn't build a Bullship unless I was going to race it -- there are lots and lots of very cheap older wood and glass ones around that are too old/heavy/funky to race.

If you will race it, it needs to meet the class specs, so I'd contact your local fleet and see what they say.

Either an El Toro, Sabot or Sabotina are good choices for small racing dinghies, as the sails and hardware are readily available. But for a stable, fun, family-use 8' boat there are many better options.

I'll never forget seeing a well-regarded racer get into his just-delivered El Toro for the first time -- took about 3 seconds to dump the whole thing fully upside-down. These boats are highly-tuned racing machines, not for the unwary.

;0 )

[DGentry]

Hi Jim

The El Toro is a fine little boat - and there's plenty of racing done in them. This means that you might want to make it as close to the plans as possible: 1) Because you might eventually want to race yours, and 2) because you might eventually want to sell yours, and one that adheres to the "one-design" rules would be much more valuable and salable.

As for your questions:
I, personally, would definitely use epoxy instead of Weldwood, though - of course - Weldwood works just fine. You'll need to thicken the epoxy with wood flour, cabosil, etc to make an effective glue. Check out http://raka.com/ for (relatively) inexpensive epoxy and fiberglass supplies.

Coating the hull with epoxy is entirely optional. There are two schools of thought regarding this - one is that epoxy coating is the best idea ever, and the other ridicules that option. Both have their merits and you can no doubt fine plenty of threads about this subject using the "search" function.

The best plywood to use is British Standard 1088 (BS1088) marine ply, which comes in a variety of woods. Okoume is often the lightest, and most expensive, but there are other options. Again, there are entire threads about this . . . .

BTW, since the El Toro is popular and has been around a long time, you should easily be able to find used sails, spars and foils for yours. Check the class association. http://www.eltoroyra.org/

Good luck! Dave

[canderson88]

If you are building an El Toro can we presume you are NorCal? If so, go to MacBeath Hardwoods in Berserkley for your plywood. They have a nice seletion of Marine Ply and other marine woods for the thwarts, etc. Go with the BS1088 grade. I've used it and the slightly lesser grades and the BS1088 is the way to go. The boards are stamped with BS1088 so you can tell especially if you are going to bright finish her.

I'm currently building an Nutshell Pram for my sons. I just laid down the sheer planks yesterday and have been using West Systems epoxy. Nice work time and with the 105 cold weather catalyst I have been getting nice results. The simple pump systems they have make life a lot easier than measuring. I have a small space heater in the corner of my garage to regulate things and it seems to work well.

[Tom Robb]

The several Toro's Ive been privilaged to work on (mostly beat to absolute hell by kids learning to sail) needed stronger decks in the way of the mast partners and the mast steps need to drain well to forstall rot there. The painted ply ones (Fir IIRRC) ought to have been epoxy/glassed.
Good little boats. One adult or two kids are probably the max load.

If you're anywhere within reasonable driving distance, go forthwith to the Center for Wooden Boats on Lake Union in Seattle and talk to Adam Krapinski (sp?) the Toro guy who is intimately familiar with everything that could possibly go wrong with or done to a Toro. If he's not the expert, no one is.

[Jim S]

Thorne- Thanks for the comments and warning. I’ve windsurfed a fair amount so I’m used to getting wet every time I sail ;0 )

I hope to build it as close to the class rules as I can. Some of the specs are critical, hull shape and dimensions for instance; while others are optional, spars can be wood, aluminum, etc. Buoyancy chambers are allowed even though they are not in the original plans.

DGentry- Thanks for the suggestions and resources. Seems like epoxy glue is the way to go.

canderson88- I wish I was from NorCal! Unfortunately I’m from EastCal, far EastCal otherwise known as DC. There is a small El Toro fleet not to far away in MD. I looked at the Nutshell Pram too. A friend built one, very nice. Thanks for the West System recommendation.

Tom Robb- I’ll try and get in touch with Adam the El Toro Guy. Thanks for the lead.

[Jim S]

I have been offered some African Mahogany at half the bd ft cost of "real" mahogany from a different source. Would the African be good for the chine logs, keelson, and transoms etc on the El Toro?

[Yeadon]

I don't think Adam Karpinski is still at CWB. He's up near Langley on Whidbey Island doing some work for Brad Rice, aka "the boatwright." You might try reaching him that way.

Adam is a really smart guy, and would probably be pretty helpful.

Isn't there an El Toro builder's website, too?

[Jim S]

Yeadon– I have not been able to track down Adam Karpinski, thanks for the lead. There is a website showing the construction of an El Toro but I have not been able to contact the builder to ask questions.

The plans specify mahogany for the solid wood parts. I don't have any experience with it and wondered if African mahogany is comparable. Would it be as durable etc?

[Jim S]

Well the jig is up.

I did not anticipate it would take this long to fabricate the jig. This makes me think my preliminary schedule for the project was wildly optimistic. (Lack of experience tells.) I don’t believe I’ll be sailing this spring after all. But then, the fall is usually a fine time to be on the water.

Anyway I’m about to begin construction of the actual boat and hope to start resawing stock tomorrow. I didn’t get any feedback on African mahogany vs. “real” mahogany but in his book John Brooks seems to think it is comparable so I’m going with it and hope for the best.
http://pic70.picturetrail.com/VOL1811/10759142/19169975/307385061.jpg

http://pic70.picturetrail.com/VOL1811/10759142/19169975/307385060.jpg

[Tom Robb]

I wouldn't wring my hands too much over the mahogany. Doug fir would work too as would any decent stick. A toro is a pretty simple boat and not terribly hard to fix if it comes to that.

[Jim S]

For such a simple little boat this El Toro sure has been a challenge for me. I’m glad I didn’t pick a larger, more complicated design for my first attempt at boat building. For the past year and a half I have been distracted by a few health issues and some other commitments; earning my keep, family stuff, house repairs, etc. The usual excuses.
However, I have managed to get in some time lately on the El Toro. I probably could have built most of a stitch and glue dingy in the time I spent on the jig alone. Planing the bevels on the keelson, chine stringers, and transoms is definitely a real test of my woodworking ability. I’ve done some basic woodworking in the past but nothing quite like this. A few more days in the shop should see this phase finished. The next challenge will be the cutting, fitting, and attaching of the plywood planks. Here are some photos of progress to date:

http://pic70.picturetrail.com/VOL1811/10759142/19169975/380018075.jpg
Mahogany El Toro parts to come.

http://pic70.picturetrail.com/VOL1811/10759142/19169975/380336658.jpg
Resawing for keelson and stringer laminations.

http://pic70.picturetrail.com/VOL1811/10759142/19169975/380352223.jpg
Gluing transoms.

http://pic70.picturetrail.com/VOL1811/10759142/19169975/380352224.jpg
Shaping stringers and transoms.

http://pic70.picturetrail.com/VOL1811/10759142/19169975/380352404.jpg
Gluing (epoxy) port chine stringer.

http://pic70.picturetrail.com/VOL1811/10759142/19169975/380352222.jpg
Planing bevels (in progress).

[snaiken]

Looks great! Glad to see some progress on it.

[Bill Lowe]

Good job and nice shop.

[ccx2]

Looking good Jim, and dont be downhearted about the time its taking. I started a 16' Garvey that i figured would take me 3or4 months for my first build, its been a year now come january and i have the knees and inwhail left to do then ill paint the inside turn it over and paint the bottom. I hope the 2or3 monthes i think this will take doesnt turn to another year.:) Its kept me from my house chores but i did clean the gutters yesterday while some epoxy was setting.:)

[Raka025]

Looking good Jim, and dont be downhearted about the time its taking. I started a 16' Garvey that i figured would take me 3or4 months for my first build, its been a year now come january and i have the knees and inwhail left to do then ill paint the inside turn it over and paint the bottom. I hope the 2or3 monthes i think this will take doesnt turn to another year.:) Its kept me from my house chores but i did clean the gutters yesterday while some epoxy was setting.:)

I second the time thing. A friend and I built a couple of Nutshell Prams side by side in 1993 or so, his is still not finished!

[Jim S]

Thanks for the kind words and encouragement. I hope once I get the plywood planks on the pace will pick up.

Bill Lowe– The shop was a real find. I used to have my tools in the basement, but there was no way I could have built a boat there due to a low ceiling and limited access. Then one day while I was welding a repair on a friend’s rudder the top of my head started to feel quite warm. I looked up and noticed that I had set the floor joists ablaze. Luckily I put the fire out before there was any real damage. It was then that I decided to look for a new home for my tools. It was that or my wife would find a new home for me! A larger space would have the added benefit of room to build a boat. (And no, contrary to what some people think, I did not set the house on fire on purpose.)

So now I am sharing a shop with three cabinet makers and a refinisher. My space is 200 sq. ft. out of a total of over 4000 sq. ft. Everyone is laid back and we all share tools, advise, and beer. Unfortunately the guy with the great planer/joiner left, but the new guy has added high energy and enthusiasm. I’m still organizing my space but at least the tools are all usable. The only downside is a lack of heat. When epoxy time rolls around again I’ll have to set up a tent with space heaters. It was pretty nippy there yesterday with a high in the upper 30’s. That’s indoors!

[Breakaway]

Looks good. Dont worry about your time frame. I started my first build, what appears to be a much simpler Summer Breeze sharpie, last March, figuring to be sailing by fall. Its almost ready for paint and use as a rowboat--but I havent started the spars and sailing bits yet! :pEven so, I'm still "shopping" for my next build.

Cheers

[Tom Robb]

Sorry you couldn't find Adam K. Married and moved away when last I heard.
Nice job on the form work, BTW. When you're finished with it, find someone else who can use it rather than making firewood of it. It'll become the gift that keeps on giving.

[Thorne]

Great pics of a lovely boat! Keep plugging away and you'll be on the water soon enough.