carvel leaking around horn timber

[felthamscruiser]

hi all im new to the lovely wooden boats i have just bought a nice 1961 carvel 30 foot alan feltham built cruiser which over the years has been very well looked after till the last 5 to 6 years any way i have noticed she lets a lot of water in over two tides i would say 4 - 6 inches i have sections in the boat so i can work out were its coming in have found its were the rudder comes through the hull through the horn timber if you hold the top of the rudder were my steering cables conect and push left or right you can see the water coming in and running down the sides i have not found any rott in the timber just play (the stern post is joined to this piece of timber can i brace this piece or make a clamp system to pull the planks up tight to the horntimber etc and then maybe use life caulk to seal :confused:

[Flitch]

Dear Felt,
You need to use at least half decent punctuation including a few commas and periods in your posts. No one has a clue what you are saying let alone asking in the above post. The guys on this forum who know what they are talking about also know how to read and write beyond a grade 2 level and if you want the value of their advice, at least give them the respect of a proper post. You may have to send your post to a friend to edit it for you before sending it here.

[redbopeep]

Dear Felt,
You need to use at least half decent punctuation including a few commas and periods in your posts. No one has a clue what you are saying let alone asking in the above post. The guys on this forum who know what they are talking about also know how to read and write beyond a grade 2 level and if you want the value of their advice, at least give them the respect of a proper post. You may have to send your post to a friend to edit it for you before sending it here.

Please be nice. You can send a private message saying this sort of thing.

Now, I can understand what he's talking about but, unfortunately, can't help much. Hopefully some kind reader will ask all the right questions and make all the right comments.

Our countertimber/horn timber has a bronze tube through it. This is where the rudder post comes through. This has a packing nut at the top, even though the bronze tube extends up above the water line.

Now a couple questions:

Do you have a similar tube that the rudder comes through?

Is the leaking around the outside of this tube? Seems like that being loose would be a bit of a problem that someone else here might comment on.

If there is no tube :eek: I don't know what to say--pray?

We replaced our countertimber due to some rot and are in the process of putting in the new tube for the rudder right now. Keeping our fingers crossed that ours is tight!

Kind forum folks--please help out.

P.S. felthamscruiser, please feel free to PM me if you wish editing of your posts, though I think you're getting your point through just fine--though not so eloquently as some forum users might wish. Take care!

[felthamscruiser]

hi thanks for the info yes i have the tube and the nut at the top you was on about ,but the leak is not from the tube its coming from around the area were the bottom timber meets the planks next to the rudder post...:confused:

[oakman]

felth

unfortunately what you describe, as best I can figure without pic, leads me to believe that you will need to haul the boat to fix this issue. If indeed, you can move the rudder post and cause water to leak in at either side of the horn timber you have a large problem indicating some structural issues. There could be more than one cause for this, including loose fastenings in the backbone of your boat. If you are lucky, maybe just the garboard planks are loose.

If you wish to keep this boat I suggest you find a yard with the facilities to haul it out and have a professional survey done. Trying to fix structural issues without knowing the true extent of the damage could lead to the loss of boat and or life in the wrong situation. Not trying to scare you, well yes I am, but the point is that a boat depends on the sum if its parts for stability and if key pieces are not doing their job than the whole can be compromised.

Please try to get some pictures posted so we can better understand what you are dealing with.

Oak

[S.V. Airlie]

Having been there.. I agree with the post stating that you might have a potential major problem. When one is dealing with a section where several parts make the whole.. Horn timber, rudder post, planking etc. with the stress on all parts, you really will have to pull her out. And I suspect that you will find some rot that may not be obvious from an outside poke with an ice pick...simply because you mention the play in the rudder post...

As Ian posted on your other thread. It maybe your stuffing box as well. And as a stuffing box is a relatively easy fix.. in comparison, I'd take his advice and check that first.

[lofting4fun]

Really good advice from Oakman,please keep us posted when you do your haul out / inspection...Glad you stopped by for advice..this is a great forum for that...Dont sweat the Grammer major's nasty answer...you get all kinds here I guess,
Regards James

[Ian McColgin]

From the other post you appear to think the whole horn timber can be moved. If that's the case, you are looking at a rebuild possibly more expensive than any possible value of the boat. If it's just the shaft tube, which from your description has a normal stuffing box atop it, that wiggles, that may be fixable if the horn is not rotten.

G'luck

[werner]

to get a basic idea of the possible rot problems ,a small screwdriver for poking around is all you need, (keel stem horn timbers etc ) I hope you did that before buying the boat . anyway I would be careful and haul the boat out as already advised.also because the problem you describe sounds like it could be difficult to repair in the water.

[Oscarvan]

Pictures......good pictures. With lighting.....

[felthamscruiser]

sorry not got pics yet, but have had another check and found the.. what i will call the (wedge) which makes the rudder stock level on the horntimber is very spongey(soft and wet), due to this its putting lots of stress on the planks and horn timber i am going to replace this wedge and then recaulk the planks connecting to the rabbit i think thats what its called i want to strengthen this area can i support the rudder stock any ideas if its suposed to have frame coming from it etc ??

[Ian McColgin]

You're going to need an actual haul of some duration to get at what's up here. The wedge just provides a flat landing for the stuffing box. I don't have from your description a clear idea of how the rudder is held up but it's likely a bearing further up the shaft, probably just under the rudder quadrent. It's just a motor boat and the rudder is not so heavy that the weight would in any way crush or damage the wood.

Even if there's no rot in the horn timber, to get at any of this you'll need to disconnect the rudder stock from the quadrent and then slide the whole unit out. If the rudder is supported from below on an extension from the skeg or keel, it should be into a gudgeon that can be unbolted to let the rudder down.

Once you have the area clear you can get the stuffing box off. There may well be a tube through the horn and the wedge up to the stuffing box. Anyway, once you have it down to the horn, you can probe for rot there and for problems with how the planks land on the horn.

The rabit, by the way, is a long notch in the keel, stem and horn that gives the planks a good landing and can be sealed.

You might look at our host's book selection and get relevant pieces of the Bud MacIntosh series.

G'luck

[felthamscruiser]

thanks for all that info yes the rudder sits in a piece of thick wood (keel/skeg) under the quadrant seams to be a large nut and washer so to remove this wedge do i remove the quadrant undo this nut and then i should be left with just a rudder shaft undo the screws holding the stuffing box to the wedge and remove stuffing box???

[Ian McColgin]

Bear in mind that all this is below the waterline. You will need more time than can do this job on a tide.

If there's room above, by all means take the quadrent off, unbolt the stuffing box, and pull it up and off to get a look.

In a normal stuffing box, there's what look like two nuts. You have to loosen the lower one from the upper by turning it clockwise to screw it towards the horntimber. Then you can back the upper which is really a sort of cap nut. If you take it right off, you'll see that inside is a packing, formerly flax now teflon square section like rope. You don't wind it, but rather one carefully cut bit around at a time, the butting ends staggered.

Anyway, let us know how this goes.

[CGrant]

Hi Felth,

Is this your boat? http://www.boatsandoutboards.co.uk/view/SPW004

[felthamscruiser]

yes this is my boat i just got