Copper bottom

[WWheeler]

I've been looking at a new project boat, a 25 foot gaff rig sloop. Built c. 1885, Southampton and still has the Lloyds registry number carved into it. (seems to have been called Gypsy, current owner seems to have bought from an ad in WB about 5 years ago and brought it from RI.)

It seems to have to been stored under cover forever, and all the amenities are strictly 19thc. (no engine no lights no head maybe a bucket) but here's the thing -- the current owner has fastened a copper bottom. I know the Admiralty used to do this, but it's the first I've seen/heard of this in modern times.

It's been carefully done. There's a layer of tar, then building paper, then tar, then the copper (with copper nails).

Also, there was a copper bottom previously originally used on the boat -- I can see the nail marks in the planking. (Which seems to be the original planking!! - may be this is why it's still there.)

Is this a credible method? or has this method been given the heave-ho just because of the cost of copper? (and bottom paints are easier to apply). Would there be galvanic reaction with the other fittings in the boat?

Of course, the real question to me is, did this thing just pop out of a time warp.

If there's interest, I've got some pics.

[Noah]

You need to look out for Galvanic stuff, but as long as the boat was fastened with Copper or Bronse to beging with, it should be fine.

Infact it is a great way to protect the boat. It is expensive and time consuming to do, but otherwise there should be no problems with it. I would be very pleased to find a boat done up that way. Especially if I was heading to a climate with shipworms of any kind.

There was an article in Woodenboat a few years back about a guy that coppered the bottom of his boat. Did it up with proper tar paper, and was very pleased with how it worked out.

Noah

[mmd]

If properly done, it is a superb method of bottom preservation. I have been fortunate to have been able to observe several large vessels coppered at the Lunenburg Foundry marine railway in the past few years. One vessel - the 83-ft LOD gaff schooner "Mist of Avalon" - I know well, having sailed on, surveyed, and taken her lines. Her owner reports that she still has no problems and a clean bottom after three years. The copper is expected to last, barring accident and with regular inspection & minor repair, for at least a decade or more. It is expensive at the outset, but for a traditional hull, both the "Mist" owner and I believe that it is the most economical anti-fouling system over the lifespan of the application. It looks proper, too.

Oh, yeah! I almost forgot - show us the pics!! :D

[ 06-11-2002, 11:19 PM: Message edited by: mmd ]

[Ken Liden]

My boat is a Wheeler built 83Ft. Coast Guard Patrol Boat built in 1943. It has had copper sheeting since day one and everything is just fine. In fact all 230 of these boats are the same way. If a boat's thru hull fittings are bedded on the copper sheeting they are in effect bonded. If you have a very large area of copper you will likily find that zincs are useless because you can't get enough on to do any good because of the sheer mass of the copper. We quit using zincs years ago and have not had any problems.

[RGM]

Copper can be an excellent way to go. Recently did some repairs to a vessel of similar age that had a copper bottom. You wondered if the copper sheathing had anything to do with the longevity of this boat? the answere is yes. I imagine that she is trunnel fastened (that helped). The fact that she hasn't had every form of stray electrical current running thru her bilges has helped her last also. Things to watch for with copper sheathing would be sufficient overlapping of the pieces, fasten with large copper tacks or bronze ring shank nails spaced fairly close. The building paper that you refer to was probably Irish Felt, or should have been. The pieces of copper are usually a workable size such as 1 foot by 2 feet, or there abouts. The ends overlap in such a way so that as the boat is moving forward water will not be forced under a leading edge and peel the copper off of the hull. A frequent problem area is along the top edge of the copper where it is fastened to the topside planking (6" to 1 foot above the waterline), fresh water can get down behind the copper and cause the usual decay problems all along there. Sounds like a real interesting boat. We would love to see some pictures.

[ 06-12-2002, 10:40 AM: Message edited by: RGM ]

[WWheeler]

Pics of "Gypsy"

Ok, please be gentle, it's my first time posting pictures on this forum. Here goes. Also, the copper pictures are towards the end. (I've used Imagestation.com, but where's the help for posting direct to the forum?)

Gypsy Pics on Imagestation (http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4291726937)

[ 06-14-2002, 06:04 PM: Message edited by: WWheeler ]

[Art Read]

This "thread" has several posts on how to get your pictures to show up here...

http://media5.hypernet.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=005060

[WWheeler]

ok let's try again.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid22/p4cee79eac72e3740f30a9df9fe9d3a57/fda59549.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid22/p064ef6614c2d80eb74ff6a244bc78b15/fda59548.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid22/p232271667b1b9334f19bc369cdeb5e99/fda59547.jpg

[Bob Cleek]

She looks to be a very nice traditional hull forum. Certainly well framed. Lucky you with the copper bottom. Finestkind. I presume that camper-shell looking plywood box that's sitting on the deck is just a temporary shelter while you're working on her, right?

[Phil Young]

Oh Bob you old meanie, saying the truth where those with manners and sensitivity dare not tread. At least he hasn't ripped the copper off and sheathed the lot in fibreglass. The cabin can be changed in 5 or 10 years for something more sympathetic.

[Bob Cleek]

Well, yea, it's his boat and he can do what he wants with it, but here in Internetland, we can tell it like it is with impugnity. Now, I don't know what kind of shape the boat is really in, but from the pictures, it was very nicely built and seems to be staying together. IF it was really built in 1885, it is really a museum piece, not a cheapo boat to play with. There are extremely few small boats of this size that old anywhere in the world. Maybe less than twenty... no kidding. A boat this age (if it really is) deserves a sensitive and accurate historical restoration. However it managed to survive this long, wrapping it up in plywood decks and deckhouses will likely spell the end of her. Unless, God willing, the plywood rots off first. Nothing to be done about it... but who can stand by and say nothing about a picture like that. Maybe we can encourage the owner to step back, contact the Small Boat department at Mystic, and take a second look at what can be done for the boat.

[Dave Fleming]

Cleekster, it sure as hell is his boat BUT,
to ruin that fine old hull with a ply wood cabin top is just beyond these old eyes.
One hand the owner talks about how well it has stood the test of time and on the other he/she/it seems to be determined to put all that in the garbage bin...
Arghhh, not enough rum or not enough sense to keep my big OPINIONATED mouth shut.... :mad:

[johnw]

Guys, guys, remember WWheeler isn't the current owner. If he buys it, maybe it will be saved. When I bought my last boat, I called up the shipwright who'd done some repairs on the boat and he said 'Thank god you've saved that boat!' Didn't know me from Adam's off ox, but he figured the boat wouldn't survive the other guy. Turned out I couldn't afford to fix the boat, but I found someone who could.

So, WWheeler, are you ready to rescue an old lady in distress?

[WWheeler]

Yes, and I want that old lady to be a luscious head turner once again. In profile, she looks like the gaff rig in the current issue of WB, though somewhat smaller (3 tonne vs. 12 tonne)

I want to tear that plywood off, and start over with something more historically correct - plank decks, proper cabin with ports, not big power boat windows.

Power options - there's no motor, and I've been agonizing over what to do -- one of those electric auxiliaries that attaches to the rudder? It could be horrible to add an inboard, hideous to add an outboard to the stern, and down right scary to cut an outboard well.

Originally, I'm told, the boat was more or less flush desk, although I think a cabin is necessary to ensure her long-time viability through re-sale. However, it could be lower, since I don't really want to do the cruise/liveaboard thing. I'm more thinking of her as a daysail/overnighter.

It's a big responsibility, she should be out of the water during the long Canadian winter, and in a covered structure, not just a tarp. To help things out, I may be able to get free moorage at the Discovery Harbour historic site in Penetanguishene.

Many thanks for your encouragement. I'll try to post more pics at a later date.

[johnw]

Sounds like a good plan. Too many people spend their time an effort building a fancy interior, then end up using the boat for daysailing in what turns out to be a tiny cockpit. This boat may have had a flush deck with a raised companionway. I say do what you must to get 4' sitting headroom and the boat will be a comfortable weekender.

Ever hear of a value-subracted enterprise? As opposed to value added, a value-subratcted enterprise produces something worth less than the inputs that went into making it. Like Poland's Trabant car or that plywood cabin sitting on an 1885 hull.

[Don Z.]

No Pole would ever design anything as unloved as the Trabant.

[Alan D. Hyde]

WWheeler, my memory fails me a little, but there's a makeshift type of motor, seen in less-developed parts of the world mostly, that you can mount above the deck and drive the vessel with. It has a long driveshaft with a prop on the end, and can be swiveled for steering.

Someone here probably knows what I'm thinking of.

No holes in the hull, nothing much below (perhaps fuel storage) and something you can disassemble and remove for the old-timers' regatta.

Would it work in your case? I don't know for sure, but suspect something might be rigged up successfully.

Perhaps this post will prompt someone who knows more to flesh this out (or condemn it).

Alan

[johnw]

You're thinking of a longtail motor, used in Thailand. Don't think I'd want the liability for swinging the prop around on a 10' shaft.

There is a type of mount for an outboard that has a couple cleats on the deck you drop the mount into. The mount is completely removeable when you are underway. Don't know who makes it, but I've seen it on a local Friendship sloop. Doesn't work very well in reverse, but it does make it possible to use an outboard without completely disfiguring the boat. By the way, I've had a boat with an outboard well, and I don't recommend it. If I have to use one of those fiendish devices, I'd rather have the outboard outside the boat.

[Downwind]

For power, why not a pair of long sweeps? With a proper rig and any wind at all, you can sail her almost anywhere and sweeps will get you there in a dead calm. If the tide is running against you, anchor, enjoy!

[WWheeler]

I like the idea of an outboard that mounts to cleats that sit on the deck. Sits on an arm or boom? Does anyone has an address or number??

I was even thinking of just keeping a light outboard below, and throwing it on only in case of emergency -- however even in that case, you need some kind of motor mount. Most outboard mounts are disfiguring. (Sweeps are just not on -- we're talking Georgian Bay here, not some friendly little body of water like the North Atlantic -- lots of shoals, rocks and lee shore.)

I also like the idea of the 4' sitting headroom, with companionway --- something that makes it easy to out on deck and move around. The current cockpit is only about the size of a large bathtub, so it's would make a social daysail kind of difficult.

[Conard]

I really like the image of an unmuffled V8 on a 16' shaft like the water taxis in Bangkok, but it might cause problems with your main sheet, and some might consider it as untraditional as a plywood camper top. I am guessing that this boat weighs about the same as my 23' Herreshoff Prudence (7,000 lbs). I use an old 8 hp Johnson on a standard scissors bracket. It has more than enough power, but it's the only ugly thing on the boat. I would like to replace it with a better looking bracket and a lighter motor which I can remove and stow, but haven't yet, primarily for cost and safety concerns. I sail on Lake Champlain which (perhaps like Georgian Bay, I don't know because I've never been there) has unpredictable winds and weather, and very rocky lee shores. I don't like the idea of being in trouble in waves and gusty winds, close to those rocks, trying to avoid getting tangled in the main sheet as I hang off the transom to attach my small outboard. I may get used to the idea eventually, but I'm not there yet. In answer to your question, Bristol Bronze make some brackets which seem to be pretty unoffensive. They are at bristolbronze.com.

[Alan D. Hyde]

I was actually thinking that perhaps a small, muffled, low-revving diesel could be rigged up along the lines of a long tail. It could turn a good-sized prop. A strong but removable attachment could be rigged on the after deck, just forward of the transom. Bronze coverplates over good-sized pipes attached internally to the transom perhaps. (Remove coverplates, drop in two pipes, a third piece with the long-tail on it drops over the two pipes, etc.)

The prop could be caged to minimize safety worries.

It's just one of those things someone could play with in the shop, if the time and money were available. Lots of good stuff has been developed that way...

Alan

[johnw]

If you go to the third section of the Bristol Bronze catalog, it shows the mount I was talking about. What the picture doesn't show is that the gudgeon-like attachments on the deck are open at the top. When you lift the mount vertically, the flat pieces that go into the gudgeons are oriented so that they will come out. You can then store the mount below and only the attachments for it are on deck. Since it has to be able to swing up in order to be easily removeable, reverse can be a problem. I'm sure you can deal with that with judicious use of a piece of seine cord to hold it down.

[WWheeler]

I checked out the Bristol Bronze site. The motor mount looks great. Of I'm going to use an engine, I'm all in favour of a sleek new Honda engine on the mount, and bypassing the diesel down below entirely. Cheaper, better, more reliable, less stray electricity passing through the hull causing galvanic reactions. I'll keep the engine below, learn to maneuver without and just throw it on if I really need.

In fact, seeing the Haven 12 /12 on the Bristol site, there's a lot about it that looks quite appropriate for Gypsy - the low cabin, the sliding companionway, etc.

W.

[Bob Cleek]

Good for you, Wheeler! Yes, indeed, save the boat. As for motors, Seagull used to make a deck mounted unobtrusive bronze mount for their engines. Sadly, they aren't made anymore.

IF this boat is 125 years old, IT DOESN'T NEED AN ENGINE! PULEEEEZE! An inboard, for openers, might shake her apart. The boat was never built to handle those stresses. Given that engines have their advantages, she would be better served without any engine, save perhaps a low powered outboard. If you must, consider carrying an inflatable dinghy, something like an Avon Redstart. Put your outboard on the inflatable and lash the inflatable alongside. That will take care of engine needs without compromising the historical integrity of the boat.

Since I'm the designated meanie, let me expound a little about what you are contemplating with this boat. IF you are interested in the boat as anything other that a complete restoration, you might "save" her from the plywood deckhouse, but you won't be doing her justice. Now, there are a lot of old boats that aren't anywhere near as old as people make them out to be. Every so often in here somebody posts a question about a 1901 Such and Such designed by Joe Blow, a famous naval architect who wasn't even born in 1901. BUT, if this boat is as old as 1885, she really deserves as much historical research as can be put into her, followed by a sensitive reconstruction using original materials. I wouldn't argue against using modern materials in the average restoration, if applied properly, but what you may have here is a genuine museum piece. An historical artifact, not a boat to "use." If you are thinking about turning her into a daysailer when she was originally a semi-decked fishboat, for instance, you won't be doing her any favors. As for accommodation, she probably will provide you with plenty of sitting room below, even with a flush deck. (Read Herreshoff's "The Compleat Cruiser" for his thoughts on "headroom.")

A well qualified wooden boat historian should be able to help you identify her type and original layout and rig. You may even find pictures of her in local maritime museum libraries. If she was (by odd chance at that time) originally built as a yacht, you will have a better chance of finding photos. If a working boat, she will probably at least be identifiable by type and rig. Her coppered bottom suggests she may actually have been built as a yacht, since economic considerations would mitigate against coppering a workboat.

The boat, if that old, is very valuable as part of the historic record. We don't have many boats like her that we can look at and learn how things were done "back then." It is in many ways through these boats that most of what is now commonly available about traditional boatbuilding became known. Once it is lost, it is lost forever.

Let me give you a few of rules about wooden boat restoration. 1) Never change anything you find on the boat until you know exactly why it was done. 2) Never add anything to the boat because you think you know better than the guy who built her, until you have found at least 3 experienced professional wooden boatbuilders who agree with you. 3) Don't try to make the boat something it was never intended to be.

If the boat is this old, and is properly restored, she could pull into any wooden boat show around and turn heads... or, ...

[ 06-24-2002, 04:57 PM: Message edited by: Bob Cleek ]

[WWheeler]

Here's some more eye candy:

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid24/p94f5e8e20c76083308591325570b6d41/fd99d85a.jpg

Bob - you're right, a historic craft is a big responsibility. The wooden boat ethic has high standards, but they're taken on voluntarily. (I'm also restoring an 1860's farmhouse, but that's another adventure.)

Preservation should be the first priority, followed by restoration. Previous owners, even if they were able to fix her, have at least be able to keep her out of the water and under cover. I have the storage space to do the same - that would be the minimum I should do.

Restoration should be safe, historically correct, and not interfere with long-term preservation. (For example, slapping gouge on a old hull may get a boat in the water in the short-term, but that quickly condemns her to the boneyard.)

Where modern elements need to be added (such as a motor mount, I'm sorry, but that's the reality of a crowded moorage.) they should be unobstrusive and at least in keeping with the overall aesthetic (bronze fittings?)

I think the issue of flush desk vs. cabin is interesting since a vessel of this type could have likely had either, even though Gypsy didn't have one (at least recently). I'm not interested in a big cabin, but I'm also sure that the vessel will eventually have to be sold, and I would be concerned about the appeal of a flush desk vessel. (Alternatively, I could look eventually donate her to a museum.)

I agree that research and consultation would be a good idea. In the circumstances, calling in professionals for consultation or work isn't out of the question.

Here's what I know so far:

The owner suffered a house fire (which came close to the boatshed, but left it alone ), so that all pictures, records etc. were lost. Here's what he's been able to tell me.

If anyone can help me with information or suggest anything, please jump in.

1. Her name is "Gypsy". Built 1885, Southhampton England. (Is this her original name, I don't know.) Seems to have been a yacht from day one.

2. First owner sailed her around Hull, England.

3. Registered by Lloyd's of London. (registration no. is carved into a deck beam -- does anyone know how to research an old Lloyd's number??) Gross tonnage 2 2/3 tonnes.

4. Current owner bought her around 1995, from an ad in WB., from Rhode Island.

5. She's gaff rigged, 25 ft. long, tiller steered. There's a short bowsprit. The keel is an iron shoe that's flat at the bottom (about 8-10" wide).

And that's all I know...

[ 06-27-2002, 03:13 PM: Message edited by: WWheeler ]

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

That's not a Lloyd's number, that is her Official Number, together with her Nett Register Tonnage on which her Light Dues and Port Dues would have been paid, because she was registered as a British Ship under Part One of the Merchant Shipping Act of 1894, or in her case the equivalent section of the 1864 Act, and if you write to the Registrar of Shipping and Seamen at Llantrisant Road, Cardiff, Wales, with a cheque, quoting the number and tonnage, they will send you a Transcript of her Registry, with her full history until she left the Register.

I have a sneaking feeling that just possibly I might know this boat. There was a 25ft clipper bowed Gypsy here in Woodbridge in the early 1980's which I seem to remember was sold to the States. Looked a bit like a Friendship Sloop. But whilst photos can deceive yours seems narrower.

[ 06-27-2002, 07:59 PM: Message edited by: Andrew Craig-Bennett ]

[Bob Cleek]

Right-0, that's her registry number. You should be able to trace her from that. I also believe Hull has a pretty active wooden boat community, if memory serves. Maybe ask one of the limeys in here. John Smith may know. There's probably a local Hull maritime historical society or such. Also, there's gotta be a local yacht club or three. Fortunately for your purposes, the British yacht clubs seem generally to be good about keeping records and being around a long time. You might get lucky there.

Sounds like you've got the stuff it takes to do her justice. Go for it! She looks from the pictures like she isn't hogged or falling apart. That's half the battle. Even if you can't find her original plans or a photo, you should be able to find plans and photos of a very similar boat someplace and be able to reconstruct what she probably looked like. Given her depth of hold, I doubt she originally carried a huge cabin. Given her UK origins, she may have just carried a little doghouse hatch and had a nice wide uncluttered deck. You should have "scrunching room" below and full sitting headroom, I'd expect. Hang an outboard on her if you must, but do all in your power to avoid an inboard. She wasn't designed to carry a hunk of iron like that aft and to drag a prop behind her. She'll sail like she was intended without the iron spinnaker. Keep us posted on her. Don't be surprised if a few inquiries strike pay dirt. A boat this old probably has been noticed and known wherever she was over the last fifty years or so.

[WWheeler]

Thanks for the comments and updates, and for setting me straight on the registration number. I've found the address for the Registrar of Shipping and Seamen.

Are there any Limeys (I mean that in the best possible way) out there who have links or addresses for UK yacht clubs/historical societies?

An update: We're still fussing about trying to get her moved. I'm looking at getting a new cradle built. Will provide pics when something significant happens.

W.

[ 07-05-2002, 04:34 PM: Message edited by: WWheeler ]

[Maybritt]

I was reading up on copper sheathing which I have been reading up on having recently seen a sheathed hull - hard to argue with the condition of it after all those years....and in the knowledge that the anti fouling I use will soon be unavailable ( I do doubt that anything else will be up to the job out here in Singapore)...whilst doing my reading I came accross your thread.

Do you still want to get in contact with people in the UK ? If so would be happy to help.

[steve sparhawk]

Mr. Wheeler--I'll be ferrying a 1960 Richardson cruiser E-W through Georgian Bay in the spring. There is hardly a delight I could enjoy more than a visit to a boat of that vintage. If it pleases you, I'd be most interested in a short layover.
gssparhawk@prodigy.net

[ 11-13-2002, 02:01 AM: Message edited by: steve sparhawk ]

[Ian G Wright]

Originally posted by WWheeler:
Are there any Limeys (I mean that in the best possible way) out there who have links or addresses for UK yacht clubs/historical societies?

W.Sure,happy happy to help a Yank if I can.
Try these for a start,,,,,,,

http://www.oldgaffersassociation.org/

http://www.classicboat.co.uk/cb/home.htm

,,,,,and try to stay away from purple metalflake paint,

IanW

[WWheeler]

What a pleasant surprise to see an old thread revived.

Sorry, to say, my attempt to buy the boat ended in a minor fiasco. The boat was fitted into a new cradle, and I showed up with the boat mover. However, he was unable to get up the owner's driveway. The 40' trailer could not make the bends in the long, narrow country lane,with ditches and trees on either side. This is something I did not see coming at all. The owner originally moved the boat in there with a 25-30 sailboat trailer, then sold the trailer. So, I concluded that I'd have to build a custom trailer just for the occasion. I know that Glen-L sells trailer plans that would be appropriate (their biggest 25 tandem wheel trailer), but I just lost heart after 6 months of aggravation and negotiations.

Steve: I will be happy to show you around in the spring. I will have something on the go, I assure you. I'm also associated with Atlantic Challenge, and I'm looking after their Block Island Cow Horn Schooner. There's another forumite, Dave Hadley, who also hangs out in the Midland-Penetang area. (see his thread from last summer "sailing in Georgian Bay) I'd suggest a visit to "Penetang" (Penetanguishene), it's got several congenial marinas, especially Dutchman's Cove -- the operator is also a wooden boat owner.

Thanks for the historic UK references. Note that us Canadians are not Yanks, at least the last time I checked.

[Ian G Wright]

Originally posted by WWheeler:
Thanks for the historic UK references. Note that us Canadians are not Yanks, at least the last time I checked.Oooops sorry, delete Yank,,,,,,,, I should have noticed a fellow Brit,,,, or are you French?

IanW ;)

[TomRobb]

My wife says I can be insensative, but I think this is pitiful :(
I sat here reading, thinking yes, a win for the good guys.
If after 6 months of hassles, the trailer stopped you cold, then sufficient stick-to-it follow through wouldn't have been there for the rest of the years of hassles and setbacks.

I make NO claim to have what it takes to do it better....whatever. It's just sad :(

[ 11-13-2002, 03:38 PM: Message edited by: TomRobb ]

[Bayboat]

Indeed a sad story. So what happens now? Is it the current owner who is hanging those ugly festoons of cheap plywood around her? And if so, will it continue? It's like dressing a distinguished old lady in a feather boa and a sequined body-hugger and laying on pasty makeup with purple eyeshadow. Any chance of exposing the current owner to comments by Cleek, D.Fleming and the other knowledgeable guys who have opined how she should be treated? Given what he or somebody while she's in his control has done to her, I would guess it wouldn't do much good. I hope someone with deep enough pockets to get her out of there comes along.

[WWheeler]

Yea, pitiful maybe, woosed out because I need another 4k just to move the damn thing. It's back under cover and still for sale. Might not be able to get until the spring. E-mail me if you want the owner's phone number.

[TomRobb]

Is there somebody in your general neighborhood who'd like to buy his way into heaven, and move it for lunch and gas money?

[WWheeler]

so far can't do it for love nor money. I thought of the following:

- get in a boom truck ("hi-ab" they're called - problem - not enough clearance only about 5-6 feet., and not enough length only about 22 feet usually

- get in a crane and a flat-bed truck. problem - both too long.

- build a custom trailer myself (learn how to weld, get plans, buy materials) cost about 1-3k in materials, and about 2 weeks in time. Problem: can't weld worth a fart.

Maybe it is easier just to buy a woodie in decent shape, rather than get burned on a project boat. (see that other thread) I know of Al Mason design, Nova-Scotia built in moderately ok shape, that I could buy for about 5-6k, and just go sailing, rather than blowing my money on trailers and such like.