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View Full Version : Should children be protected from sexual imagery?



ishmael
01-28-2008, 11:50 AM
Off the various bikini threads.

I'm of two minds about this. I think kids up until the age of about ten aren't much ready for or interested in sexual imagery. And I think some of Duncan's points about it being overused for commercial purposes are valid.

When I was, say thirteen, the possession of a Playboy got you into the club. LOL. But, what is the responsibility of government in controlling such imagery? Has the loss of a more Puritanical sense of the body led to things that aren't good for public or private health, such as the spike in teenage pregnancy and STD rates?

I'd, as a card carrying member of the sexual revolution, prefer the loss of innocence be postponed a bit.

Andrew Craig-Bennett
01-28-2008, 11:51 AM
And so would I.

TimH
01-28-2008, 11:54 AM
Has the loss of a more Puritanical sense of the body led to things that aren't good for public or private health, such as the spike in teenage pregnancy and STD rates?




The opposite is true actually teen pregnancy rates are way down.

Andrew Craig-Bennett
01-28-2008, 11:57 AM
They may be down where you are; in the UK they are up.

Alas.

TimH
01-28-2008, 12:02 PM
I had wondered about that too. When I was a kid you had to find yourself issues of Playboy and Hustler. They were hard to come by, and then you had to hide them.

Now days there is porn in every household via the internet...and way more hardcore than Playboy and Hustler.

Pretty much every kid now has access to this hardcore stuff that was never available before.
It doesnt appear to have made a difference.



U.S. TEENAGE PREGNANCY RATE DROPS FOR 10TH STRAIGHT YEAR



In 2000, 83.6 in 1,000 women aged 15-19 became pregnant-a 28% decline from 1990, when the teenage pregnancy rate reached a high of 116.9 per 1,000 women. Declines also took place among all racial and ethnic groups and in every state in 2000, according to new data from The Alan Guttmacher Institute. The teenage birth and abortion rates also declined between 1990 and 2000. (Pregnancies are calculated as the sum of births, miscarriages (including stillbirths) and abortions.)
Teenage pregnancy rates in 2000 varied widely by state, ranging from 42 pregnancies per 1,000 women aged 15-19 in North Dakota to 113 per 1,000 in Nevada. The rate in the District of Columbia was 128 per 1,000.

TimH
01-28-2008, 12:04 PM
Maybe sometimes its better to acknowledge something and address it than to pretend it doesnt exist and then be unprepared.

ishmael
01-28-2008, 12:06 PM
They may be down from 1990, but they aren't down from from 1950.

S.V. Airlie
01-28-2008, 12:09 PM
I had wondered about that too. When I was a kid you had to find yourself issues of Playboy and Hustler. They were hard to come by, and then you had to hide them.

Now days there is porn in every household via the internet...and way more hardcore than Playboy and Hustler.

Pretty much every kid now has access to this hardcore stuff that was never available before.
It doesnt appear to have made a difference.



U.S. TEENAGE PREGNANCY RATE DROPS FOR 10TH STRAIGHT YEAR



In 2000, 83.6 in 1,000 women aged 15-19 became pregnant-a 28% decline from 1990, when the teenage pregnancy rate reached a high of 116.9 per 1,000 women. Declines also took place among all racial and ethnic groups and in every state in 2000, according to new data from The Alan Guttmacher Institute. The teenage birth and abortion rates also declined between 1990 and 2000. (Pregnancies are calculated as the sum of births, miscarriages (including stillbirths) and abortions.)
Teenage pregnancy rates in 2000 varied widely by state, ranging from 42 pregnancies per 1,000 women aged 15-19 in North Dakota to 113 per 1,000 in Nevada. The rate in the District of Columbia was 128 per 1,000.


and that was just the interns...

And Ish.. The pill wasn't widely available in the fifties.

Kaa
01-28-2008, 12:10 PM
But, what is the responsibility of government in controlling such imagery?

The responsibility (and choice) lies with the parents.

As to the government, it tries. Thankfully, there's the First Amendment.

Kaa

rotund1
01-28-2008, 12:11 PM
I have been buying nice imported beer for years and have not been transported to a south seas paradise yet. Maybe there is just to much pandering of all kinds going on.
But yes.

TimH
01-28-2008, 12:11 PM
Wasnt there a social stigma with early pregnancy in the 50s?

Keith Wilson
01-28-2008, 12:14 PM
Well, probably yes - but where does "sexual imagery" start?

Two five-point scales:

1. A Burqa.
2. A ordinary western street clothes
3. Skimpy hot-weather teenagers' outfit
4. Wicked Weasel bikini
5. Nothing at all.

1. Standing stiffly on opposite sides of the room
2. Holding hands
3. Kissing passionately
4. Soft-core fondling
5. Hardcore anatomical porno-type sex.

While one can prevent the most extreme things from being shown in public, the damage done by trying to repress the others seems possibly worse than the damage done by allowing freedom in this case.

Bruce Hooke
01-28-2008, 12:19 PM
One of the underlying problems is that to regulate this sort of thing we are pretty much forced to regulate based on what parts of the body are visible in an image. This leads to a situation where we ban from most public display quite non-sexual image that happen to include one of the forbidden body parts, while highly sexual images where the critical body parts are covered up but made the focal point of the image can be plastered on billboards and in store windows. Unfortunately, my guess is that it is the subtext of the image rather than the specific body parts shown that should be our real concern when it comes to kids, but it is very hard to regulate "subtext" without stomping all over the first amendment.

TimH
01-28-2008, 12:20 PM
Since things are done differently in other countries, perhaps some clues reside there? Look at Amsterdam or contries where women topless at the beach are the norm?
In some countries sex isnt treated as something taboo.

TimH
01-28-2008, 12:23 PM
http://www.guttmacher.org/graphics/gr0501/gr050107f2.gif

In France and Sweden in particular, teen sexual expression is seen as normal and positive, but there is also widespread expectation that sexual intercourse will take place within committed relationships. (In fact, relationships among U.S. teens tend to be more sporadic and of shorter duration.) Equally strong is the expectation that young people who are having sex will take actions to protect themselves and their partners from pregnancy and sexually transmitted diseases. In keeping with this view, state or public schools in England and Wales, France and Sweden and in most of Canada teach sexuality education and provide comprehensive information about prevention. In addition, the media is used more frequently in government-sponsored campaigns for promoting responsible sexual behavior ("Promoting Contraceptive Use and Choice: France's Approach to Teen Pregnancy and Abortion (http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/journals/gr030303.html)," TGR, June 2000).
For adults in the United States, on the other hand, the fact that young people are having sex is more often considered to be, per se, the "problem."


Teens and ContraceptionU.S. teens are less likely to use a contraceptive method, and to use a hormonal method, than teens in other developed countries.

http://www.guttmacher.org/graphics/gr0501/gr040107f3.gif

Link (http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/tgr/05/1/gr050107.html)

P.I. Stazzer-Newt
01-28-2008, 12:26 PM
They may be down where you are; in the UK they are up.

Alas.


Near as I can tell, the teenage pregnancy rate in the UK has been on a consistent downward track since 1993.
http://www.dfes.gov.uk/pns/DisplayPN.cgi?pn_id=2007_0092

Not that there isn't room for improvement.

Buddy Tabor
01-28-2008, 12:29 PM
I dont see how they can be in our modern society. I was listenig to a commercial for another inane womans sitcom/drama show thats previewing soon and they speak about one of them " screwing her way to the top" Its everywhere- another show I tuned into for about 15 seconds, they were talking about stuffig socks in their pants to make themselves appear more massively endowed.

Its disgusting really. Im no prude, but when I turn on broadcast tv, I dont want this kind of crap thrown in my face.

Bob Adams
01-28-2008, 12:33 PM
I dont see how they can be in our modern society. I was listenig to a commercial for another inane womans sitcom/drama show thats previewing soon and they speak about one of them " screwing her way to the top" Its everywhere- another show I tuned into for about 15 seconds, they were talking about stuffig socks in their pants to make themselves appear more massively endowed.

Its disgusting really. Im no prude, but when I turn on broadcast tv, I dont want this kind of crap thrown in my face.

Duncan?:rolleyes:

TimH
01-28-2008, 12:34 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZP05N_bZ60Y

Tylerdurden
01-28-2008, 12:34 PM
PLEEEASE stop!

End Hunger then worry about what they see, or are we just talking about the "approved" children

Milo Christensen
01-28-2008, 12:38 PM
Buddy, I want your autograph. Dude, your singing "Jesus Loves Me More Than You". was just so great.

Michael s/v Sannyasin
01-28-2008, 12:46 PM
back when there was a furor over some male cop showing his butt on some TV cop show, I was talking with a parent who was concerned and thought she might have to ban the show which was one of her kids' favorites.

My response was "oh, so, it is ok with you that they watch someone get their head blown off in nearly every single episode, but, seeing someone's naked butt is somehow going to be harmful to them?"

I see a lot of young adults today that are pretty messed up, due, in part, to being coddled so much as children. They don't know how to cope with adversity. When I was a kid, nobody told us we had to wear bike helmuts, and after a couple of crashes, we learned to be careful. Nobody told us we had to wear life jackets, so, we learned to swim, really really well.

I think that parents need to teach their kids their own values, and then give the child the opportunity to make those values their own, if they so choose. That makes a strong, independent young adult.

ishmael
01-28-2008, 12:47 PM
I was home alone, washing my car in the front yard, when a girl who couldn't have been more than thirteen ran out of the house next door and into my arms. Completely distraught, weeping uncontrollably. "OK girl, settle down, what's going on?"

She'd been raped, or had sex(that never became clear), by a fellow thirteen year old at what amounted to a drink and sex party, with the parents gone. A sunny, weekend, summer day.

Kids that age have always experimented with sex, but in my day the girl never ran from the house in terror. We're talking a reasonably prosperous middle-class-neighborhood, where such wouldn't have happened when I was thirteen. I should have called the police, I guess, but I didn't.

What has changed? Something fundamental has changed.

Tylerdurden
01-28-2008, 12:47 PM
back when there was a furor over some male cop showing his butt on some TV cop show, I was talking with a parent who was concerned and thought she might have to ban the show which was one of her kids' favorites.

My response was "oh, so, it is ok with you that they watch someone get their head blown off in nearly every single episode, but, seeing someone's naked butt is somehow going to be harmful to them?"

I see a lot of young adults today that are pretty messed up, due, in part, to being coddled so much as children. They don't know how to cope with adversity. When I was a kid, nobody told us we had to wear bike helmuts, and after a couple of crashes, we learned to be careful. Nobody told us we had to wear life jackets, so, we learned to swim, really really well.

I think that parents need to teach their kids their own values, and then give the child the opportunity to make those values their own, if they so choose. That makes a strong, independent young adult.

http://www.woodenboatvb.com/vbulletin/upload/images/icons/icon14.gif
With ya, lets feed them all too.

PatCox
01-28-2008, 01:16 PM
Sexual images and nudity are far more common in all those european countries that have significantly lower teen pregnancy rates than the US. There is nudity in public advertisements there, in TV shows, and on the beaches. Yet less pregnancy. Maybe what we need is less prudishness, not more, Ish.

PatCox
01-28-2008, 01:20 PM
And by the way, Ish, just how does one blind them to the existence of their own genitalia? One of those plastic cones like a dog wears after surgery? Because they sure are interested in those things, and it starts early and never stops. Maybe if we tell them that their bodies are disgusting and dirty dirty dirty, that would help them to grow up with a healthy, repressed, prudish, self-hating, closeted perversion-having sexuality, huh?

There were no whores in the parks of Victorian England, I am sure.

TimH
01-28-2008, 01:27 PM
I think we should spay and neuter at birth. Then they could apply for a permit if they want to have kids later in life. And the government can decide if they are good enough. Plus they could tax it!
Think of all the money the permits could bring...

TimH
01-28-2008, 01:28 PM
In the mean time, sex is the driving force of all things. Lets just recognize that and plan accordingly.

like Pat says, repression leads to perversion.

Tylerdurden
01-28-2008, 01:35 PM
I was home alone, washing my car in the front yard, when a girl who couldn't have been more than thirteen ran out of the house next door and into my arms. Completely distraught, weeping uncontrollably. "OK girl, settle down, what's going on?"

She'd been raped, or had sex(that never became clear), by a fellow thirteen year old at what amounted to a drink and sex party, with the parents gone. A sunny, weekend, summer day.

Kids that age have always experimented with sex, but in my day the girl never ran from the house in terror. We're talking a reasonably prosperous middle-class-neighborhood, where such wouldn't have happened when I was thirteen. I should have called the police, I guess, but I didn't.

What has changed? Something fundamental has changed.

I just caught this, I have two daughters and the thought of a 13 year old girl running into you arms to cop that the just had been "raped" seems slightly inconceivable and I am the reigning conspiracy theorist here.

Starting to smell like Poo, where is Dan?

Buddy Tabor
01-28-2008, 01:36 PM
repression leads to perversion

I cant agree with that. Perversion leads to perversion. Its a cycle of incrementally more and more. What titillated 20 years ago makes one yawn these days. Perverts downt start out at the top of the pervert heap. They work their way up. Just like serial killers dont normally start out killing humans, they start out torturing and killing defenseless animals. Pretty soon the fun is gone and its time to move on to other things.

ishmael
01-28-2008, 01:37 PM
"In the mean time, sex is the driving force of all things."

Read some Freud if you need to be further convinced.

A genius, who I basically agree with, but there are human endeavors that don't lead back to sexuality. There is simple form and function, there is music, there is idea that isn't about sex. The notion that sex is the be all and end all is part of the problem, no longer a solution. Freud was both right and very wrong.

TimH
01-28-2008, 01:47 PM
I believe in Maslows theory myself:

Theory
One of the many interesting things Maslow noticed while he worked with monkeys early in his career, was that some needs take precedence over others. For example, if you are hungry and thirsty, you will tend to try to take care of the thirst first. After all, you can do without food for weeks, but you can only do without water for a couple of days! Thirst is a “stronger” need than hunger. Likewise, if you are very very thirsty, but someone has put a choke hold on you and you can’t breath, which is more important? http://webspace.ship.edu/cgboer/hierarchy.gif
Maslow took this idea and created his now famous hierarchy of needs. Beyond the details of air, water, food, and sex, he laid out five broader layers: the physiological needs, the needs for safety and security, the needs for love and belonging, the needs for esteem, and the need to actualize the self, in that order.
1. The physiological needs. These include the needs we have for oxygen, water, protein, salt, sugar, calcium, and other minerals and vitamins. They also include the need to maintain a pH balance (getting too acidic or base will kill you) and temperature (98.6 or near to it). Also, there’s the needs to be active, to rest, to sleep, to get rid of wastes (CO2, sweat, urine, and feces), to avoid pain, and to have sex. Quite a collection!

ishmael
01-28-2008, 01:52 PM
"I just caught this, I have two daughters and the thought of a 13 year old girl running into you arms to cop that the just had been "raped" seems slightly inconceivable"

It happened, Mark. I'll swear it on my mother's grave.

I was very much taken aback. I was just washing my Honda Civic, but this girl was even more taken aback by what had just happened to her, and was looking for protection. Hysterical. I happened to be the nearest adult. It didn't matter a whit that I was male, she just wanted protection by an adult. I gave it to her as well as I was able. I was confused, when do you call the cops?

I should have called the police because I think a rape had just happened.

LeeG
01-28-2008, 02:23 PM
I'd, as a card carrying member of the sexual revolution, prefer the loss of innocence be postponed a bit.


not in your control, you have some serious delusions operating to think you can control the loss of innocence through controlling imagery.
















I prefer Justin Timberlakes SNL song Dick in a Box

Tylerdurden
01-28-2008, 05:30 PM
"I just caught this, I have two daughters and the thought of a 13 year old girl running into you arms to cop that the just had been "raped" seems slightly inconceivable"

It happened, Mark. I'll swear it on my mother's grave.

I was very much taken aback. I was just washing my Honda Civic, but this girl was even more taken aback by what had just happened to her, and was looking for protection. Hysterical. I happened to be the nearest adult. It didn't matter a whit that I was male, she just wanted protection by an adult. I gave it to her as well as I was able. I was confused, when do you call the cops?

I should have called the police because I think a rape had just happened.


I was just starting to buy into that then I read this...

"Best wishes to you Cass. If you ever need a bunk and meal in mid-Maine, you've got it."

On that thread your inviting underage girls to spend the night?

Twisted man just twisted.

Buddy Tabor
01-28-2008, 05:53 PM
I was just starting to buy into that then I read this...

"Best wishes to you Cass. If you ever need a bunk and meal in mid-Maine, you've got it."

On that thread your inviting underage girls to spend the night?

Twisted man just twisted.

Can the bilge tenants somehow get over insinuating pedophilia all over the place? Jeeezy, give it a rest already.:(

Tylerdurden
01-28-2008, 06:52 PM
Your right, but Ish has a way of creeping out some things. Gotta know some history.

ishmael
01-28-2008, 07:10 PM
"Best wishes to you Cass. If you ever need a bunk and meal in mid-Maine, you've got it."

On that thread your inviting underage girls to spend the night?

Twisted man just twisted."

Oh Pulease get off this. I offered a bunk and a meal to the daughter of a cyber-friend. I have no idea how old she is and don't care. She looked, from her photo and from the sound of her posts, like she might be in her late teens and ready to do some traveling. I'd offer the same thing to the son of a cyber-friend, or most other people. As a young person, traveling, which I was once, a bunk and a meal I could count on sounded pretty good.

If that's somehow perverted solicitation in your twisted mind then maybe go have a look in the mirror. To me it was just a polite offer of a bunk and a hot meal. I happen to remember when people weren't paranoid. I refuse to go to paranoia now.

And it's you're, not your.

P.S. Maslow is interesting, though I haven't read him extensively, Tim. All of the post-Freudians remain too materialistic for me to buy, except in surface matters. Try some of Jung's books: "Modern Man in Search of a Soul" or "Memories, Dreams, Reflections."

skuthorp
01-28-2008, 07:43 PM
"I'm of two minds about this. I think kids up until the age of about ten aren't much ready for or interested in sexual imagery"
but business is very interested in marketing sex to them, or their parents, or at least to little girls. Dolls, clothes, makeup, games, cartoons and magazines, underwear, you name it and all in the name of the free market and capitalism. I totally agree with Duncan at this end of his argument. We are talking about 5-6 here, but the border is fuzzy, a state racing organisation picked a 12 year old as the 'face' of their spring racing advertising. He mum wasn't fazed at all it seems and the girl could have passed as 17 at least. Women's magazine are plastered with pix of celebs in bikini's - too fat, baby bumps, but not much different to the cheap newsstand girlie mags that women actually send their nude and near nude pix to free!
It'a societal problem, we buy the stuff, porn is one of the biggest businesses in the world, mostly to rich western countries but spreading. As a society we virtually condone sexual slavery but in some societies even that is traditional with poor families selling their daughters into prostitution to keep the others from starving. Been going on for thousands of years. I think it's just part of the human condition and wer'e fooling ourselves that we are a mostly upright, ethical and moral species. The evidence is to the contrary!

htom
01-28-2008, 08:25 PM
Growing up not on, but very near, the farms ... the idea that I would some day be acting like a rooster or bull or stallion was both disgusting and fascinating. I think that over-protecting the kids is as bad (and maybe worse) as under-protecting them. It's a hard road from child to adult and sweeping generalizations are usually not helpful. Accurate data is probably more important than well-intended preaching.

MiddleAgesMan
01-28-2008, 09:24 PM
I think kids should get answers when they are old enough to ask questions and that includes drawings or pictures in good taste. No, I don't think you should plunk a 10 year old down to watch a porn video for "educational" purposes. If I had kids that age I would have v-chips on the boob tube and access limits on their 'puters.

Nudity, on the other hand, is a whole 'nother ball of wax. There is nothing wrong with kids of all ages being exposed to tasteful nudity--in art, in travelogues or wherever it is encountered. A healthy attitude about the human body is just that--healthy.

Buddy Tabor
01-29-2008, 07:40 AM
Your right, but Ish has a way of creeping out some things. Gotta know some history.


Ive been "lurking" here for some time. I know lots of history. ;)

Buddy Tabor
01-29-2008, 07:42 AM
the idea that I would some day be acting like a rooster

Youre that fast? I feel sorry for your lovers.

Tylerdurden
01-29-2008, 07:53 AM
Ive been "lurking" here for some time. I know lots of history. ;)

Then you know Ish has a history with these type of questions.
I think the other sex threads have got him started again.

Buddy Tabor
01-29-2008, 08:13 AM
What are you saying Tyler? That everyone else can start sex threads and participate in them, but Jack can not, because he doesnt fit the mold?

Joe (SoCal)
01-29-2008, 08:18 AM
I prefer Justin Timberlakes SNL song Dick in a Box

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S08ENtibaTM

:D

Tylerdurden
01-29-2008, 08:20 AM
Nope, I am saying he is creeping me out again. He did it last year and drove Dan nuts. I was buying into it again until I started to see the same connections. Its a slippery slope dude and I am getting off here.
You have fun but remember I warned you.
Also I am very open to almost anything and its rare stuff creeps me.
This does, sorry.

D.O.Sag
01-29-2008, 08:33 AM
I gave it to her as well as I was able.

anybudy wanna take that line an run wid it?

Buddy Tabor
01-29-2008, 08:37 AM
Jack "creeps" me out a lot less than some of the cyber-sociopaths we have on here, who to most of the blind sheep on here, appear "normal".

If you dont like what the guy has to say, skip over it or use your "ignore" function.

huisjen
01-29-2008, 08:42 AM
Hi Mark. What do you want me to do?

Jack keeps quoting Freud and Jung and prattling on about how he's healthy and not repressed, just like Rainman talking about what a good driver he is. If he does anything really wierd, just call the cops and send them here to the bilge for a looksie.

If you really want innocence, how would you rate the folks that Bly and company came across in the South Pacific? -- Not ignorant, but not tarnished with Puritanism either.

ishmael
01-29-2008, 08:52 AM
Maybe it's a difference in how we were raised, Mark? I grew up in a very trusting place, where any kind of sexual abuse wasn't on the radar. As I said in my reminiscence of our summer place, I was embraced by life. Not perfectly, nothing is perfect, but a genuinely warm embrace. My parents were far from perfect, but they loved me, warmly.

My talking frankly about these issues sets you and few others on edge. I suggest you all look to your own issues. You post an almost constant stream of fear and paranoia, and then make accusations, that have no basis, about my sexuality. Who's the perverted one?

I have empathy for all the wounded. No one gets through this life unscathed. And I do my best to meet people where they are, not where I project they are. It's too much to ask, but try it, everyone.

P.S. That gave me a good morning chuckle, D.O.

Tylerdurden
01-29-2008, 08:53 AM
Great to have you back Dan, Ish has been on a short leash until now.
Until now.http://www.woodenboatvb.com/vbulletin/upload/images/icons/icon12.gif

LeeG
01-29-2008, 09:15 AM
ok, one more stab at the topic. For you folks educated in psychology isn't there a stage of development that one would call "loss of innocence? When a child goes from being able to think logically about concrete objects to being able to work with abstract ideas. In that realm of abstractions a child sees apparent contradictions and is able to argue ideas. That is a developmental stage that better describes a loss of innocence than some knowledge of sexual matters.

Seems to me "loss of innocence" is a somewhat archaic term tied to having sex for the first time. When a ten year old boy is beaten up by neighborhood punks there's a loss of innocence, when a child bounces between warring parents there's a loss of innocence, when a child realizes that Santa Claus is a story figure that's a loss of innocence. Hell, when a kid develops an internal code of ethics as opposed to unbridled self-centerdness could be a loss of innocence.

To think that "innocence" as a function of sexual experience that can be delayed seems to me a desire for ignorance. "I don't want to know about it!".

Some girls enter puberty much earlier than most, a friends daughter was developing at age 9 with periods starting a couple years later. How the hell can hiding sexual or erotic imagery "protect" their innocence?

huisjen
01-29-2008, 09:36 AM
I think the biggest dangers are the emotional traumas of conflicting messages and disempowerment by lack of information. I think some confuse innocence with ignorance and cluelessness, and then think the latter two are somehow ennobleing.

Tylerdurden
01-29-2008, 09:40 AM
I think the biggest dangers are the emotional traumas of conflicting messages and disempowerment by lack of information. I think some confuse innocence with ignorance and cluelessness, and then think the latter two are somehow ennobleing.

Hit it!

ishmael
01-29-2008, 09:44 AM
I'm asking honest questions about innocence, or trying to.

When I was thirteen my brother came home from college after his first year. We got into a tiff about something and he told me to go to hell. I was stung for days by that rebuke, the use of that word. I'd never heard it used in anger, or the F word used salaciously(the F word at all.)

Not saying it was a glorious past we need to return to, but something has been lost in the last forty years in the basic fabric of the culture. My family weren't particularly prudish, you just didn't use that language in anger, and Playboy images weren't splashed across every venue, and very few thirteen year olds were getting pregnant. Is there a connection? Yeah, I don't know cause and effect, but clearly a connection.

LeeG
01-29-2008, 10:42 AM
Jack, sounds like you aren't talking about innocence at all but a loss of security. A trusted brother hurting you with language that was not used in the house before has nothing to do with salacious imagery or "the fabric of our culture". Forty years ago you made the transition I'm speaking of.
YOU at age 11 were not aware of pregnant thirteen year olds but statistically they existed just as they do now. The only thing that changed is that you got older. That's not a change in society, that's a change in you.
My parents didn't use profane language either. Regarding the shock of the outside world coming in to change the family dynamics the funny one in my family was mom working at a university and being exposed to all those college students in SoCal. Physical affection wasn't a normal thing in my parents families or ours. So mom is exposed to all these college students in the 60's where hugging and showing physical affection seemed to replace the handshake as a greeting between acquaintances. So here am I at age 15 and mom is giving us 'kids' hugs. Talk about a shock. "where did this come from?!"
Regarding the older brother slinging words, my older brother had a black belt in the cutting insults and biting humor. My loss of innocence regarding the trusted brother started at age 7 as he approached his age of lost innocence.

Seems to me that your personality and isolation leads you to project your experience onto society when it really is just your experience.

Keith Wilson
01-29-2008, 11:07 AM
but something has been lost in the last forty years in the basic fabric of the culture. Something lost, something gained. 'Twas ever thus.

And young unmarried girls certainly used to get pregnant; the difference is that that it was hidden. In good middle-class families they got shipped away to a "home for unwed mothers" before they started to show, and were - well, I'll be polite and say "encouraged" to give the baby up for adoption. I know a couple of women, now middle-aged or older, who went through this. It's hard to say if it's better or worse than how we handle it now.

ishmael
01-29-2008, 11:24 AM
That's a considered reply, Lee, and thanks for being polite.

I undoubtedly project things onto all manner of situations. It's one of the reasons I like good reparte and argument, it can take you out of yourself and into another's thoughts, reshaping your own. That's also why I like asking questions.

I don't think anyone except maybe a few truly enlightened ones, like the Buddha or the Christ, has ever stopped projecting. In the modern understanding of it it has become a kinda dirty word, but that's not how those who codified it in the twentieth century meant it. It's a native process of the mind trying to understand itself better, and doesn't go away until you die. The point is to ponder them so you don't make others, or objects in the world, carry them anymore than necessary.

One can lose their innocence in all kinds of ways: your first playground fight, your first sexual experience, the first time a brother comes home from college and uses some salty language, the list is almost endless. I'm not suggesting we can make it perfect so loss of innocence goes away. But we can do better than we have been, and salacious imagery and language, broadcast 24/7 is, I think, a part of the problem.

I was thinking this morning about the physical harm I've caused in this life. Three things remain vibrant: I punched Steve in the nose over Janet when I was 11, I slapped Kris, once, open handed, when I was twenty, and I was the fella in an abortion when I was 24. I don't hold onto them much, but they are there. The only one I'm the least proud of is Steve's bloodied nose. LOL. Why do I recall them? They were all losses of innocence.

Buddy Tabor
01-29-2008, 11:25 AM
Hi Mark. What do you want me to do?

Jack keeps quoting Freud and Jung and prattling on about how he's healthy and not repressed, just like Rainman talking about what a good driver he is. If he does anything really wierd, just call the cops and send them here to the bilge for a looksie.

If you really want innocence, how would you rate the folks that Bly and company came across in the South Pacific? -- Not ignorant, but not tarnished with Puritanism either.

Just why did you come back? To make veiled threats or suggest others do likewise? I didn't think that was allowed on this forum. Or is it allowed in a few select cases?



Jack "creeps" me out a lot less than some of the cyber-sociopaths we have on here, who to most of the blind sheep on here, appear "normal".

If you dont like what the guy has to say, skip over it or use your "ignore" function.

http://www.woodenboatvb.com/vbulletin/upload/images/misc/progress.gif

huisjen
01-29-2008, 11:44 AM
Veiled? Jack is disturbed. He has been for several years now. My "threat" is to protect others from him if he seems to be heading over the edge.

Buddy Tabor
01-29-2008, 11:47 AM
Disturbed?

Are you a psychiatrist or do you just play one on the WBF?

huisjen
01-29-2008, 11:53 AM
I just play one. But not Freud or Jung.

ishmael
01-29-2008, 11:58 AM
I suppose it's pointless, but I wish Dan well. I hope he gets at the obvious sexual wounds he suffered at the hands of the devout.

Buddy Tabor
01-29-2008, 02:25 PM
There you go.

A Psychiatric analysis boomerang, RETURNED TO SENDER. :)

Buddy Tabor
01-29-2008, 02:27 PM
My own view is that anyone living in Maine in the winter is more than a bit disturbed and probably a bit retarded as well. :)

Tylerdurden
01-29-2008, 02:31 PM
My own view is that anyone living in Maine in the winter is more than a bit disturbed and probably a bit retarded as well. :)

Hold on, I am planning my escape.http://www.woodenboatvb.com/vbulletin/upload/images/icons/icon12.gif

Buddy Tabor
01-29-2008, 02:34 PM
Can you escape retardation?

Tylerdurden
01-29-2008, 02:41 PM
Can you escape retardation?

Well it is easily misdiagnosed amongst the truly demented.
I am considered a God amongst the twisted and deranged.

Lots of weirdness out here on the perimeter...

abbyj
01-29-2008, 02:53 PM
If I had to guess, it's probably a consequence of wider availability of condoms... as well as education about their use.

You're dating yourself here. Condom use is becoming less common among teens. The mind boggling rise of STD's among teens( Canada is a good example ) due to increased OC use over Condoms although preventing pregnancy (great for statistical purposes), the long term damage of STD's is far from a fair compromise.

Condoms are a great "ol' standby", but you would be surprised how many 10-13 year olds are using Nuvaring and Depo.

The internet is filled with web-sites containing information on this topic, But you will have tear yourself from your liberal blogs in order to do the research and not look like an out-of-touch old codger.


Facts About Contraception Use
Teens today are making more responsible decisions about sex and contraception. In teenagers aged 15 –17, the pregnancy rate has decreased 33 percent from 1990 to 2000, a record low.
Fewer teens are having sex. In 1991, 54 percent of high school students (grades 9-12) reported having had sex. The proportion has decreased over the years, so that by 2003, it was 46.7 percent. Somewhat more than half of 2003 high school seniors (61 percent of boys, 62 percent of girls) have had sex. And teens are having fewer sexual partners. The proportion of high school seniors who had had sexual intercourse with four or more people during their life declined from 25 percent in 1991 to 20 percent in 2003.
Even though fewer teens are having sex, those who do have sex are not protecting themselves well enough. Sexually transmitted diseases (STDs) and unplanned pregnancy still commonly occur in teenagers who have sexual intercourse. One of every ten American girls aged 15-19 years gets pregnant every year (includes any marital status) and most say the pregnancy was unintended. One of four young persons who have sex contract an STD every year.
Contraceptive use at first sex has increased. In 1988, 65 percent of females aged 15-19 reported using contraception the first time they had sex. By 2002, this had increased to 74 percent.
Contraceptive use at most recent sex has also increased. In 1988, 77 percent of females aged 15-19 used contraception the most recent time they had sex. By 2002, 83 percent reported using contraception at most recent sex.
One-quarter of sexually active 9-12th grade students report using alcohol or drugs during their most recent sexual encounter. Males (30 percent) are more likely than females (21 percent) to report having done so.
Among 15-17-year olds, 51 percent say that they are personally concerned that they might “do more” sexually than they planned to because they were drinking or using drugs.
The younger teen girls are, the less likely they are to have used birth control pills during their last sexual intercourse.
Teaching teens about contraception does not increase sexual activity. In fact, teaching teens about contraception as part of a comprehensive adolescent pregnancy prevention program may delay age at first sexual activity.
Source: The National Campaign to Prevent Teen Pregnancy, www.teenpregnancy.org (http://www.teenpregnancy.org/).


http://www.teenpregnancy.org/resources/reading/pdf/inatl_comparisons2006.pdf

Abby