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View Full Version : I was wrong. I've thought it through more clearly.



Milo Christensen
01-26-2008, 08:34 AM
Memphis Mike and I got into at a very personal level in the now infamous original (TimH) "freedom to post whatever Scot lets you get away with" thread.

More to attack Memphis Mike than to support Duncan, I used his step daughter as an example of a potential model for a hypothetical internet marketed company called Yo Momma Bad Ass Bikinis. He threatened me with a physical beating should we ever meet. We were both wrong. Terribly wrong.

My participation in the anti-bikini thing wasn't about the bikinis. It was personal, as I will explain. Memphis Mike should be allowed to post whatever he thinks the rest of the forum is interested in. So should all registered members. None of us should have to put up with personal attacks because of what we post, provided that what we post isn't a personal attack.

My long running sniper war with Memphis Mike goes back a ways. Back to a forum member named Karen Gresham. Memphis Mike and a group of forumites mounted an incessant campaign against what Karen was posting. Their campaign of insults and name calling eventually caused Karen to leave the forum. They didn't ignore her. They didn't like what she posted so they drove her away. Some of them even celebrated their victory for weeks afterwards. This episode has obviously bothered me at a fundamental level for a long time.

Duncan Gibbs comes along. He mounts what is basically a one-man campaign for visual censorship through self-restraint.

A running theme through the resulting discussion was an outrage that he would propose any form of censorship.

Thinking it through it was an outrage.

The only people that don't belong here are the people who aren't willing and open minded enough to be exposed to the wonderful, mind expanding diversity of thought and opinion and interests of the kinds of discussion to be found here in the Bilge on any given day. If you can't respectfully include someone whose thoughts, opinions and interests are different or in opposition to yours, then you need to think about why you come here. If you come here to attack others for posting their thoughts, opinions or interests, please, don't go away mad, but do go away.

Having said the above, I admit that I have some more personal reflection to do, followed by an honest attempt to change some bad habits I've developed. Will you join me?

In the spirit of open mindedness, perhaps one of the changes we could recommend to Scott is that the ignore function be disabled?

S.V. Airlie
01-26-2008, 08:38 AM
Milo.. Good for you..I have a lot of respect for one who has the courage to write an apology such as yours..Congrats..
You be a good man....

huisjen
01-26-2008, 08:40 AM
This message is hidden because Milo Christensen is on your ignore list.
...

Phillip Allen
01-26-2008, 08:41 AM
I think the status quo was fine...I have done personal attacks in response to attacks on me...I probably won't quit defending myself...I have a long memory. I put up with a lot before I finally get angry enough to respond...that is my safety valve. Anyone who manages to get me mad must certinly have worked hard to do so.

Phillip Allen
01-26-2008, 08:43 AM
Dan, consider reading Milo's post...it is pretty refreshing

Tylerdurden
01-26-2008, 08:56 AM
I think its high time we look around at who the bullies are.
I know its obvious to some that a small minority will hammer any dissent to death. Any doubt look through my posts. Over and over its three to five who continuously pound on anything I post.
I am all for making a point and having the posters make it but when you put something up and the same three naysayers hammer for twenty posts something has to give.

I think anyone knows when I came here I was respectful.
What happened since?

Good for you Milo, I still cannot forgive the both of us as "Kiddie porn purveyors".. I will never forgive that. Both Norman and Joe can go f themselves.
And people tell me I go too far.

Chris Coose
01-26-2008, 09:14 AM
Nice Milo.
You have touched on a number of fundamental AA principles in this writing.
4th&5th step
8&9
10th step.
The concept of "restraint of tongue and pen".

There is plenty of other traditional code that I could site that fits.

It in infectious for those of us who look to live better not only in our own skin but in a scurvy place like the bilge.

Thanks for reminding me of the value of this place and I look forward to our humanness that will cause further reflection as we go up and down.

Long live the bilge and the curious international membership.

And thanks to Scot again for the playground.

By the way, I'll be working on some boat stuff today.

John of Phoenix
01-26-2008, 09:18 AM
Having said the above, I admit that I have some more personal reflection to do, followed by an honest attempt to change some bad habits I've developed.

You might want to reflect on your (perverted) relationship with dubya while you're at it. :D

I've said it before - You're a good man, MJC.

Gonzalo
01-26-2008, 09:24 AM
You are a big man, Milo.

ishmael
01-26-2008, 09:28 AM
Good post, Milo.

There's a lot of frustration, anger and fear in the world right now and the internet, the bilge, is a place where people let it out, with often unpleasant results.

The Christian testament says to turn the other cheek, and I think that's reasonable advice. It doesn't suggest one should take repeated pummeling without responding.

I didn't follow the "great bikini debate" closely, and I, generally, don't hold grudges. There's only one tiff I've been in here which I haven't let go of, but I'm not going to speak to it specifically in the hope we can still mend fences. By nature, I don't like being enemies with people. Not that I'm a pushover, but what's the point? Life is too short to be angry and defensive all the time--or even much of the time. It's hard on the physical fabric, too.

If there's genuine, righteous if you will, anger to be expressed, that can be fine. But the most sincere don't resort to unfounded insult to accomplish the task. Their arguments, though perhaps a bit hot, don't depend on such ridicule, and are much better for it.

So, good on you Milo for laying it out with an empathy more of us could adopt.

Mind your Ps and Qs people, it helps the blood pressure.

LeeG
01-26-2008, 09:39 AM
good points, but why in the world not retain the ignore function, it helps self-restraint by removing contact with people one recognizes as unhealthy to engage with.

Joe (SoCal)
01-26-2008, 09:57 AM
My long running sniper war with Memphis Mike goes back a ways. Back to a forum member named Karen Gresham. Memphis Mike and a group of forumites mounted an incessant campaign against what Karen was posting. Their campaign of insults and name calling eventually caused Karen to leave the forum. They didn't ignore her. They didn't like what she posted so they drove her away. Some of them even celebrated their victory for weeks afterwards. This episode has obviously bothered me at a fundamental level for a long time.


I celebrate every day I'm on this forum

Karen Gresham was an asshole. :mad:
She left on her own accord, no one can MAKE anyone leave.
It boggles my mind that she was of such little substance and contributed NOTHING to this community but C&P strife, but yet the Neocons martyr her like she was she second coming of Jesus Christ. :rolleyes:

Milo
Jeff Ironmule
HighC... etc.

Get a grip go read her old post they were nothing but C&P&RUN Crap and you lionize her because she didn't have the rhino skin to tuff out getting splattered with the ****e she was siring. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:Get a freaking life.

Oh and Milo good on you for trying but learn a lesson from the book of Joe, ;) Ya are what ya are ! and in 3 months you will be doing exactly the same rant with me or MMike all over again. Like Emerson said: "To thy own self be true".

Ian McColgin
01-26-2008, 10:10 AM
Good show, Milo. You actually do come through with affirmative remarks of your own, as does Joe I might add, and thus have something to say other than carps and snips.

Argumentation and exporing differences are important. Exposing hipocracy and error are important. And Joe is right that both he and you have spirited and even pungent personalities that lead at times past colorful and vigorous expression to really pointless insult. Like Joe, you recognize it.

Even if you drift down the Via Vitriola again, no permanent harm if you take the periodic deep breath and apologize as necessary.

It's a profound misunderstanding of Freud's theory of repression to imagine that mastering one's temper has to be bad. There are a couple of books about the young George Washington and his struggles with a truely volcanic nature. The discipline imposed by horsemanship helped Washington. Sailing helps. Any activity where the testoserone and adrenalin rushes must be channeled productivly because you are trying to manipulate forces that you can't simply coerce.

Glad you're here &

G'luck

High C
01-26-2008, 10:13 AM
Well said, Milo.

The problem with this group of bullies, as you called them, is that they are befriended and supported by a great many of our more normally behaved members. These members are enablers.

Bullies are everywhere, but the sad thing about this place is that our little group of bullies is so openly accepted by so many.

Those of you who remain quiet while this group does its thing, and then yuck it up together shortly after one of their frequent "episodes" are giving your tacit approval to their behavior. There are a few who occasionally will offer mild objection, but never are these members ostracized. They are quickly welcomed back into the good graces of the group, often accompanied by nonsense like, "you may have lost your cool a little, but you're a good man_____".

Being fellow travelers politically makes that easier, doesn't it?

Some like to say that the bilge is a free for all. It is what we make it and what we allow it to be.

ishmael
01-26-2008, 10:26 AM
"It's a profound misunderstanding of Freud's theory of repression to imagine that mastering one's temper has to be bad."

I'm sorry to keep bringing up Jung, but he was the main protege of Freud. When asked about temper--and he had a healthy one--he said, "I try to only express my anger when I could as easily not." In other words, control. Ian's horsemanship image re Washington is a fine one. It's not something repressed that needs expression, it's an emotional tool which can be used when needed.

That said, there are people with repressed anger that comes banging out all over the place.

Joe (SoCal)
01-26-2008, 10:26 AM
Take off the marshmallow pants and stop hitting the boohoo button and grow some gronical, geeezuz you guys call yourself sailors HighC :rolleyes:

S.V. Airlie
01-26-2008, 10:32 AM
I look at the bilge and in some ways the entire forum.

I have split those who post into two catagories:

1) Those who do contribute, try to help others on boat topics, try to take part in the events, gatherings, and most importantly, have a love of old boats.
and
2) Those who don't contribute and are only here to spread their agendas etc. We have several of these but luckily, the first group greatly outnumbers the second.

Tylerdurden
01-26-2008, 10:34 AM
Well said, Milo.

The problem with this group of bullies, as you called them, is that they are befriended and supported by a great many of our more normally behaved members. These members are enablers.

Bullies are everywhere, but the sad thing about this place is that our little group of bullies is so openly accepted by so many.



So true. I used to post to another forum that had the same issues.
They had a get together and pretty much the bullies made a mends before the get together to save face.
Funny thing was all of them were total pussies in real life and I could see why the forgive me mode kicked in before the get together.
After the bullies were not so disrespectful. Wonder why?

cs
01-26-2008, 10:38 AM
Good post Milo and thanks for stepping up like that.

Chad

Milo Christensen
01-26-2008, 10:53 AM
Thanks for the support. This is hard.

And thanks to Chris for recognizing that I have an addiction to this place and that I ought to look at the 12 steps.

JimD
01-26-2008, 10:59 AM
I apreciate what Milo is doing, and I also agree with Joe in his assessment of Ms Gresham. Duncan obviously has an axe to grind about a particular subject but he isn't trolling. Gresham otoh was possibly the worst troll this forum has ever had. But anyone who wants to crusade over a single issue or political ideology, etc., is going to soon pile up a wall of opposition infront of him/her. That much is pretty inevitable. Civility can be challenging.

Tylerdurden
01-26-2008, 11:01 AM
Thanks for the support. This is hard.

And thanks to Chris for recognizing that I have an addiction to this place and that I ought to look at the 12 steps.

If its an addiction your a functioning addict unlike a bunch who walk around with needles poking out of their arms.
You know you are screwed when you have to have an internet connection on you phone.

S.V. Airlie
01-26-2008, 11:08 AM
I apreciate what Milo is doing, and I also agree with Joe in his assessment of Ms Gresham. Duncan obviously has an axe to grind about a particular subject but he isn't trolling. Gresham otoh was possibly the worst troll this forum has ever had. But anyone who wants to crusade over a single issue or political ideology, etc., is going to soon pile up a wall of opposition infront of him/her. That much is pretty inevitable. Civility can be challenging.

I was on the forum for much or most of Ms. Gresham's stay. Then I left and heaven help me, went sailing. I missed the final episodes of As the World Turns and did not know the outcome, her leaving, until later.
My impressions are: She posted a lot of C&Ps. But harmless as she had few personal comments about them. Just threw them out.. Trolling in it's best sense.
I don't recall her making many attempts to change the rules ( poor choice of word here perhaps ) on the forum as Duncan appears to have wanted to do regarding bikini pictures.
So, a difference between the two..
Although I do not agree with Duncan's approach including the message to Scot, he is really not the only one who has attempted to force his/her views on the forum. There are several out there who do nothing but.
The key is just ignore those as long as possible. Sometimes it's easy until it becomes personal. Then it gets harder obviously.

Memphis Mike
01-26-2008, 11:34 AM
Well, it's not an apology but I guess it will have to do. It's the best I can expect out of the likes of you. Thanks for making the effort.

Milo Christensen
01-26-2008, 11:49 AM
It's not an apology but I guess it will have to do.
It's the best I can expect out of the likes of you.
Thanks for making the effort.
I did not want to go to court.

Keith Wilson
01-26-2008, 11:57 AM
Milo, good job. Yer OK.

Perhaps it would be a good thing to put the unfortunate business with Karen Gresham behind us? I missed it, but deploring it or crowing about it (give it a rest, Joe) won't help now. Nothing has happened like it since, and while there is certainly enough personal acrimony, collective bullying is thankfully very rare.

Memphis Mike
01-26-2008, 12:06 PM
Milo, you're just like a lot of other people I know on a face to face basis. You just can't keep your big mouth shut when you need to.

I walked away from this for a minute to think and this is what I came up with.

I want to extend my hand to you once again. I know that some of the things I've said and done on this forum are wrong and I DO aplogise for them.

Regardless of how some of you want to paint a picture of me, I'm one of the good guys and everyone that has met me knows that.

So if I offended you, Milo. I'm sorry for it. I think for the good of our country we had better try to mend our fences and become unified once again or we are going to perish.

I will start trying to be more tolerent of the views of others as I think it is imperative that we all do so.

Have a good day, Milo. Don't let this weigh too heavy on your mind. We're good as far as I'm concerned.

High C
01-26-2008, 12:14 PM
Mike :)

Buddy Tabor
01-26-2008, 12:16 PM
Good for you Milo, I still cannot forgive the both of us as "Kiddie porn purveyors

Good old Milo as you call him, ( I prefer to remember him as his former self on here MJC) , has no problem with labeling someone with the child porn label or with threats of vetted FBI agents to seek those persons out. Of course this happened some years before you appeared on the WB Forum scene Tyler, so you can be forgiven for your ignorance.

I find it quite hilarious that now the shoe is on the other foot.

What comes around goes around, eh MJC?

Buddy Tabor
01-26-2008, 12:18 PM
Nope, I never got an apology either.

Boo friggin hoo.

Milo Christensen
01-26-2008, 12:18 PM
Mike: Thank you. I accept the hand extended in friendship. I acknowledge that we have both stepped over a line once in awhile. I'm more pleased than you know that you've agreed with me to try, to at least attempt (why does it have to be so damn hard!) to grow in tolerance and understanding and work for unification instead of divsiveness.

Will you PM me if and when I go over the line again?

And now I'm going to beat the wags who will chime in with the always predictable:

Group Hug!

Keith Wilson
01-26-2008, 12:21 PM
Well, I'm impressed. Good work, guys. http://www.woodenboatvb.com/vbulletin/upload/images/icons/icon14.gifhttp://www.woodenboatvb.com/vbulletin/upload/images/icons/icon14.gifhttp://www.woodenboatvb.com/vbulletin/upload/images/icons/icon14.gif

Buddy Tabor
01-26-2008, 12:22 PM
Good old Milo as you call him, ( I prefer to remember him as his former self on here MJC) , has no problem with labeling someone with the child porn label or with threats of vetted FBI agents to seek those persons out. Of course this happened some years before you appeared on the WB Forum scene Tyler, so you can be forgiven for your ignorance.

I find it quite hilarious that now the shoe is on the other foot.

What comes around goes around, eh MJC?


xxx

Milo Christensen
01-26-2008, 12:22 PM
Lest some here think I've gone soft in my dotage, this agreement of unification extends to our universal intolerance of Dutch.

Fart! Say goodbye Dutch.

Hughman
01-26-2008, 12:27 PM
It takes a lot of practice to navigate all the possible personalities one encounters.

Civility is an accepted body of rules that keeps people safe among strangers, rules developed in an age when people had to be face to face to communicate. Duels were fought over trifles before civility rules were accepted.

Civility also shields us from any deep exploration of other people, and limits how well we get know others.
Internet removes the need of civility, by removing the danger of physical violence, or escalation caused by offense.

Trolls are sociopathic in their behavior because they simply don't care if they upset people. It's how they manipulate the world around them.

It takes practice to identify socialpaths, and discipline to avoid responding to the offense.

There are 16,000 people registered on this forum, and uncounted others lurking. All of them are on various places on the journey of life experience.

How they post here tells us where they are on that journey. While we as individuals can't change someone else directly, collectively, we add to the experience of others.

That is what happened to Milo.

Cheers, Milo

Buddy Tabor
01-26-2008, 12:32 PM
Thats whats wrong with this place. It encourages the turds of life to come forth with smelly tidbits of excrement like this thread of MJC's, while indeed it is nothing more than his pitiful attempt to gain attention and puff yourself up as some kind of compassionate persona. And the fools of the forum fall for it again and again.

YOU disgust me MJC.

S.V. Airlie
01-26-2008, 12:33 PM
It takes a lot of practice to navigate all the possible personalities one encounters.

Civility is an accepted body of rules that keeps people safe among strangers, rules developed in an age when people had to be face to face to communicate. Duels were fought over trifles before civility rules were accepted.

Civility also shields us from any deep exploration of other people, and limits how well we get know others.
Internet removes the need of civility, by removing the danger of physical violence, or escalation caused by offense.

Trolls are sociopathic in their behavior because they simply don't care if they upset people. It's how they manipulate the world around them.

It takes practice to identify socialpaths, and discipline to avoid responding to the offense.

There are 16,000 people registered on this forum, and uncounted others lurking. All of them are on various places on the journey of life experience.

How they post here tells us where they are on that journey. While we as individuals can't change someone else directly, collectively, we add to the experience of others.

That is what happened to Milo.

Cheers, Milo


I'd say probably only 14,000 due to multiple personalities, name changes due to being previously booted etc..:rolleyes:

Keith Wilson
01-26-2008, 12:35 PM
Just can't let go, can ye Buddy? :rolleyes:

S.V. Airlie
01-26-2008, 12:37 PM
A Trolling he will go, a TROLLING he will go.. High Ho the Derryooooo a
Trolling he will go...

Flying Orca
01-26-2008, 12:38 PM
MM and Milo, I have to say that though I may disagree with your points at times, I always look forward to reading what you have to say. BOTH of you. I just wanted to say "Well done", and express my wish (not for the first time) that the political landscape of my late, once-great nation could be cleansed of the sewage in which it has become mired. If you two can do it, there's hope. :)

JimD
01-26-2008, 12:39 PM
Thats whats wrong with this place. It encourages the turds of life to come forth with smelly tidbits of excrement .

Speak of the devil...I'm trying to eat my lunch.

Domesticated_Mr. Know It All
01-26-2008, 02:24 PM
I was starting to wonder If we should change the name from WBF to WWF.
Glad to see this resolved by adults.
Way to go.

S/V Laura Ellen
01-26-2008, 02:31 PM
Glad to see this resolved by adults.


Adults? Where? Show me one adult here. It's the magic of the WBF, that we can return to our youth and play boats with our friends while we are on-line.:D

Chris Coose
01-26-2008, 03:37 PM
Once a week I am in my car for 15 minutes where I will listen to Neal Bortz on the radio and I am reminded (sort of like the relief felt when the hammer is removed from the thumb) of the absense of a particular student of his.