checked plywood

[john l]

i inherited a 1950's era plywood penguin class dinghy and was told that it was ready to go-just need to pick it up, step mast and sail away. not so. guess you could have told me. boat was gnerally solid except for horrible paint finish and worse yet thin finish interior (looks like it might have been painted with a dark stain, oily varnish-like coating-yuk, more sanding required-i may paint interior once this awful flaking finish is gone). all that craising and peeling was right in line with outer layer of plywood checking. i have stripped almost all paint off of hull (used the makita paint stripping sander which worked like a champ) and now thinking hull repair. options include: cutting away top veneer layer in checked area and epoxying in new veneer and painting as per current standards. the other options include patching checks with plastic or epoxy fillers and painting, wood epoxy saturation on outside of hull and possibly carbon or glass fiber laid in epoxy. i am leaning towards venner patch and spot epoxy as necessary and then conventional paint- say primer/sealer, high build primer and then easypoxy. but i might be all wrong. the boat will be dry sailed and may also serve as a dink to my other boat. any suggestions? i need a good solid fix, but one which is lasting yet conducive to future repairability. your comments are welcome and appreciated. thanks

[Lazy Jack]

Sounds like a good time to apply a wet mixture of epoxy and microballoons to fill in all the surface checks, a once-over with a soft pad disk sander and some 6 OZ fiberglass cloth and epoxy. Once sanded, the epoxy should hold the paint well while the glass prevents further surface checking. It'll cost you some money and a bit of extra weight, but you'll never have to worry about it again.

[Mike Vogdes]

I'll second Lazy Jacks repair schedule.

You may be tempted to forgo the glass cloth and fair and paint, however you allready did the hardest part, removing all the paint.

[Lulworth]

John,

There have been a couple of mentions of Penguins (that I've seen, there may be more) over the past month or two so you should do a search if you haven't already. I am a big penguin fan -- I frostbite them all winter -- so from my perspective, if there is any possibility that you might want to race (or sell to a racer) this penguin, you must not glass it. This is especially true if the boat has a builder's plate that identifies it as being professionally built (common builder's names were Beaton, Wright, Norton, or Austin). I would paint the interior (I did on mine) and fill the low spots with microballon thickened epoxy where needed on the outside. Fairing is not all that difficult and the raised grain is readily sanded flat. You can stabilize the fir ply with a coat of low viscosity epoxy (I have used MAS for this purpose but there are others including one ((that is mentioned in a knee-jerk sort of way anytime epoxy and wood are mentioned)) which is also probably fine). The ply will check over time but so what? You'll need to paint it regularly anyway. Regardless of the intended use for the boat, glassing the hull is not necessary and the wieght gain is far more than you'd think unless you are very careful or you vacuum bag it to get the glass-to-resin ratio close to 50% by wieght. In any case, the lighter the boat, the easier it is to handle and believe me on these boats 20 lbs makes a huge difference.

If you get it sailing, drop by the Bristol yacht Club in RI any winter Sunday (Nov1 thru April, 1:00 start, 3:30 last race) and join us for some great racing followed by lies in the bar. Below is some inspiration (4318 is from the mid 'fifties).

David

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid145/p339bb68041f27a417907de16ec601b7e/f66b4986.jpg

[john l]

david, nice photo. what kind of breeze there.
man you guys sound pretty tuff, i would need skis for my penguin this time of year. i know i am resisting a "temptation" to glass it. but if it was designed to have glass it would have had glass! that said, if i were to use anything i would consider carbon fiber and scratch the paint entirely. or pull the whole top layer of veneer off and replace with carbon fiber set in epoxy. the trade offs -do i go that far now or simply patch and paint to make it to a race before april! and possibly claim the crown this season! in any event i will do the patch work and then decide. i prefer to keep the boat as original as possible and possibly more marketable. hey i never even sailed a penguin. the closest thing was perhaps my 16' comet class which was quite nice. forgot to mention that my mast is wood and seems almost as heavy as the boat. so how do they compare to weight in aluminum/carbon.
where did you seen the penguin listings? wooden boat forum or penguin class asso. havent looked at that one in many months. i supose there are a lot of these old penguins around. could be a good one for building a small fleet
in my area to compete against those 3 liars in newport.
got to get back to work, will consider all reasonable or other responses!

[Lazy Jack]

I would certainly defer to Lulworth's advise, I wasn't considering maintaining competitiveness or originality. I would expect, however, that even with a moderate coat of just epoxy, you would have some re-appearance of checks over time, but if you're willing to deal with that, the boat will be quite a bit lighter. Listen to the person who knows the boats and good luck with your project.

[Carl Schaefer]

John,

I've been posting many questions to the forum regarding a Penguin woody that I recently purchased. It's a 1955 Wright, #4066. The exterior plywood face on my boat is checked liked yours but I intend to sand it all down, fill and fair the low spots with lite-weight filler/epoxy, prime, then paint with a one-part poly Interlux Brightsides. I'll varnish the interior. Just finished sanding the entire interior -- looks great. Just need to install the forward stem knee and I'm ready to turn her over and strip the latex exterior housepaint a previous owner painted the boat with. Unfortunately, the boat was not complete: there is no hardware, no standing rigging, and no running rigging. The mast, boom, hull, rudder, and centerboard are in great shape, though, especially for a 50 year old boat. There were some small areas of rot but I dug it out and used CPES to stabilize those areas before filling with adhesive filler/epoxy (West System with a mixture of high density filler and colloidal silica).

I guess I'll be 'pimping' some of my Penguin friends to take detailed pix of their racing setups -- fortunately, there are more woodies than fiberglass Penguins in my area (northern Virginia at the Washington Sailing Marina -- Penguin Fleet 1) so I should be able to find a good boat to emulate.

Drop me a line if you'd like: cgschaefer@gmail.com.

Carl

[Carl Schaefer]

David, I'm interested in your flap bailers on the transom of your boat. Do you have close up pix of those? I've been thinking of putting some on my boat but I have a plywood transom with 5/8" framing - if I installed them, it would require that they be placed a little higher on the transom than I'd like or to frame around them to retain the rigidity in that area.

Take care,
Carl

[john l]

hey carl, there are some rigging photos on the "intl. Penguin Dinghy Class Assn" site-http://home.dmv.com/~jenkins/ also a classified section which may help sourcing the bits you need. there is even a penguin forum but nOt much activity.
i am not sure who built my boat as i have found no builders plate. the hull number as found in the mast step is 5076. the stiffening bulkhead behind mast is plywood with a big curve cutout.
you mentioned CPES as some kind of rot arrestor. is this an acronym or actual name?
how did you sand the interior and its various nooks and crannies (what kind of sander)

[paul oman]

Gosh - all the pictures you guys post brings back such memories.... I envy you all.

Regarding the checking etc. I would sand lightly and then coat/seal with a flexible epoxy paint (flexible so it will move with the plywood). Skip the cloth etc. too heavy and not needed. 8 or 10 mils (1 mil is 1/1000 inch) of epoxy paint will seal and bury for good most of the checking.

paul oman
progressive epoxy polymers

[Lulworth]

Carl,

As you know (others may not) the dump flaps are to deal with catastrophic stability failure (i.e. dumping) and are only used to empty the water from ... say the level of the gunnels to ankle deep. This is done by towing the boat so all the water sloshes to the back and runs out the open transom holes. The bottom line is put the flap holes above the framing -- it doesn't really matter. This is the way everyone here does it (even Wright built ones that have (I think) plywood transoms and wider framing. I'll try to add a few pictures later.

Good luck,

David

[john l]

hey david, the two boats on the left in your photos show dark hulls and brite transoms. was this a typical paint scheme? my transom is mahogony and the various layers of paint included a top coat of chalky and peeling dark green, a real nice and hard layer of black under that and then some gray and white undercoats.
i was originally thinking of repainting it black
(the original penguin color) but after stripping i thought maybe white might be easier to maintain
and generally would hold up better-not to mention
i have carried the boat around on roof racks and
thought the sun baking the paint would not be all that good for the finish not to mention
the heat in the car. in spite of this the balck with brite transom looks sharp-maybe i'll have to suck up,paint it black and keep the interior bright. i use epihanes on my other boats but i would consider cetol for this one. paint does seem easier to maintain, offers a better barrier and lets you know of problems more clearly. but then there is the weight issue.
any thoughts on freeing my centerboard short of
dismanteling the trunk.
cheers john

[john l]

david,
what is the best floor board set up. my boat had a plywood floor with one forward end broken off. the ply seems very flexible. i thought that i might use what i have as a pattern to cut a piece of luan which i would leave un finished
(for grip) and then add some skate board sized grip take in key places. alternatively i thought
i might scratch the plywood and place a few strategically placed 3/8 -1/2" X 6 or 7 cedar boards. lets say one on either side of cb trunk.
one between then aft of cb and then maybe a few in front of transom to kneel on when fixing rudder in place. i have seen some boats with floatation bags -on forward of mast and two aft. any thoughts?

[Lulworth]

John,

Luan? Oh my, Oh my, ... deep sigh. No. Luan will not be satisfactory for floor boards, you'll step through it on your first roll tack. Floor boards need to be 1/4" fir (or better, occume but fir is cheaper), with the edges stiffened with epoxied-on battens of (in my case) mahogony around the edges and a doubling ring about 1.5 inches wide around the hole that you use to access your Elvstrom-style bailer (if you have one). In the picture below you can see the bright finished mahog stiffener around the perimeter of the fir ply floor boards. Paint the whole thing then use antislip tape in specific areas or mask off those areas and put an overlayer of paint into which you mix volcanic grit from home depot (ask for antislip additives).

Color scheme? In our fleet of 15 boats, the idea is to have a color that is different from everyone elses. Red, white, black, grey, green yellow, blue, orange -- it looks like a bad acid trip out there some days. It's a wooden boat -- use your aesthetic sense.

Carl, you can see the "flaps" in this picture. Close them with clear packing tape (so you can see if you are too far back and are dragging your stern). They are above the bottom framing. I'd also show a picture from the outside but my transom varnish is in a shameful state and I couldn't bear the ridicule!

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid153/paa1f901a0b2d6b0c6585fd66899610cd/f59af87b.jpg

Cheers, David

[Bruce Hooke]

In my experience with douglas fir plywood, the only thing that will stop future checking is glass cloth (or something similar) set in epoxy. Epoxy alone is not enough. On the other hand, on a dry-sailed boat, some checking is not really a big deal, and on a competative racing boat the added weight of glass cloth set in epoxy could be a a big problem. (If the plywood is something other than douglas fir then epoxy alone could be sufficient.)

Trying to remove the outer layer of plywood and replace it with something else sounds like a nightmare project to me. The issues range from how you would go about removing the outer layer of plywood, especially around things like the frames and stem, to how you would avoid creating a very unbalanced panel (plywood works in part because it is symetrical), to whether any of this would violate class rules.

Remember, this is a boat -- it is supposed to be sailed, not set in the living room to glisten in the evening sun! :D

[Lulworth]

Bruce,

You're right about fir checking but you should also remember that this plywood is over 50 years old. It's seen a few wet/dry, hot/cold cycles in it's day. Despite its age, the ply on my 50+ year old penguin does check but not nearly as badly as new stuff. The checking that occurs on the bottom panels of my boat have been sharply decreased by a coat of epoxy that I slopped on several years ago (not a cure-all but it does seem to help in this case). I didn't treat the sides this way (to save wieght) and they are worse. But, really, it's not that bad and if I weren't racing against boats with pristine bottoms I wouldn't care.

You live in RI? You should try sailing with us -- I can get you a loaner boat if you want to give it a whirl. Let me know -- David2Boat@aol.com

David.

[john l]

david, yeah i do have the bailer. the wood at aft end is a little rough and i plan to use a little epoxy around it. had one of these on my comet and thought that it worked well as long as you were moving. just had to rememebr to close it which wasn't hard given the feedback to do so.
oddly enough the bottom of my boat has no checking at all. it is the top sides where the problems are.
i think i decided to use corrugated cardboard coated in epoxy for those floor boards!
yout boat looks great, looks like you have a high tech centerboard

[john l]

hey david. you mentioned that toe/stiffing rail on perimter of floor board (i have remnants of this on my kit) and addditional stiffeners on the bottom side- is that correct? when sailing do you toes come in contact with those edges?
judging from the body position in your sailing foto, i get a good idea of ideal ergonomics/weight distribution. when going through the motion of a tack, set and hike (lets say close hauled on a point) do you move from seated/leaning/hiking on rail to knees, to walking or shuffling and back up towards rail.
in the fot it looks like your boat (the center one) has you on one knee and one foot. i am trying to get a sense of body motion and weight distribution for both sailing and floorboard strength considerations. and (i want to determine how much cardboard i need for that epoxy/cardbaord floor i am making) i was thinking of putting some neoprene or more simply a section of nonslip yoga matting in a few areas where i was likely to have knee to floor contact-like the central position of plywood floor behind the cb. like a 10-12" wide by 18" long piece. any ideas or is that floorboard flexible enough to go easy on my knees? if i have to make a new floor i would like to incorporate some good thinking into it. i guess i feel there are some functional deficiences in that floor design but never having sailed or for that matter seen one sailed i may be off course. can i download your fotos from this forum? i would like to view them larger to study. thanks john

[john l]

hey david. you mentioned that toe/stiffing rail on perimter of floor board (i have remnants of this on my kit) and addditional stiffeners on the bottom side- is that correct? when sailing do you toes come in contact with those edges?
judging from the body position in your sailing foto, i get a good idea of ideal ergonomics/weight distribution. when going through the motion of a tack, set and hike (lets say close hauled on a point) do you move from seated/leaning/hiking on rail to knees, to walking or shuffling and back up towards rail.
in the fot it looks like your boat (the center one) has you on one knee and one foot. i am trying to get a sense of body motion and weight distribution for both sailing and floorboard strength considerations. and (i want to determine how much cardboard i need for that epoxy/cardbaord floor i am making) i was thinking of putting some neoprene or more simply a section of nonslip yoga matting in a few areas where i was likely to have knee to floor contact-like the central position of plywood floor behind the cb. like a 10-12" wide by 18" long piece. any ideas or is that floorboard flexible enough to go easy on my knees? if i have to make a new floor i would like to incorporate some good thinking into it. i guess i feel there are some functional deficiences in that floor design but never having sailed or for that matter seen one sailed i may be off course. can i download your fotos from this forum? i would like to view them larger to study. thanks john

[Carl Schaefer]

Originally posted by john l:
hey carl, there are some rigging photos on the "intl. Penguin Dinghy Class Assn" site-http://home.dmv.com/~jenkins/ also a classified section which may help sourcing the bits you need. there is even a penguin forum but nOt much activity.
i am not sure who built my boat as i have found no builders plate. the hull number as found in the mast step is 5076. the stiffening bulkhead behind mast is plywood with a big curve cutout.
you mentioned CPES as some kind of rot arrestor. is this an acronym or actual name?
how did you sand the interior and its various nooks and crannies (what kind of sander)John, thanks for the link to the Penguin site. I've been there and the "How to Rig a Penguin" pix are excellent but there is not a enough detail in certain areas.

For info on your Penguin, Dick Tennerstedt, the International Penguin Class measurer, can probably provide some more info on your boat and manufacturer. He can be reached at: DTenner@aol.com.

CPES can be found here: http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/decoder_CPES.htm

I sanded the interior using a 4.5 inch palm sander with 60 grit followed with 100 grit, then 150 grit. I used a Mouse sander to get into the tight spots (with the same grit).

Hope this helps,
Carl

[Carl Schaefer]

Originally posted by john l:
you mentioned that toe/stiffing rail on perimter of floor board (i have remnants of this on my kit) and addditional stiffeners on the bottom side- is that correct?John, here is an image of the floor board in my Penguin before I sanded it.

http://www.futurelinkinc.com/sailing/penguin/Pen9.JPG

Here is an image of the boat with the port inside sanded - the starboard side still needed to be sanded in this pic. Also, the dark spots are CPES epoxy at some local repairs (not sanded yet).

http://www.futurelinkinc.com/sailing/penguin/Pen2.JPG

[john l]

carl thanks for all the info and fotos. i had looked for that cpes in the jamestown catalgue at hand but could not find it. is this a new product? the link to their site was very helpful. would you use this over the entire boat or just in trouble spots?
i will also email dick t for more info. my boat looks very similar to yours (4066-5076 which dates it later in 50's-maybe same builder tbd), except that the floor board is not fir plywood - it's mahogony and maybe even that luan which is why it seems so cheazy. i do have that stiffening rib around the outside.
looks like you replace a rib on port side. what are you using as the fillet/seal at intersection of side and screw strip? looks like you are using some sealer ar aft end of trunk. how is your trunk? looks like your board is out. i haven't figured out how to free the board let alone remove it. i hope to finish sanding exterior on next decent day, then i'll bring into shop for repair and some muscle on the board.
i need to free up some memory on my camera and will get some fotos of my progress. cheers john

[Carl Schaefer]

John, as I understand it, CPES has been out there for a while. Here is the web site for CPES: http://www.rotdoctor.com/house/Hsealer.html. Rot Doctor web site: http://www.rotdoctor.com.

I did replace a side frame on the port side. The old one was broken in two places when I received the boat. Replaced it with a spruce frame, then stained it slightly to get it roughly the same color as the other (aged) frames. Otherwise it would have stood out. The dark areas in the chine seams and along the centerboard trunk is CPES epoxy. The two bright areas on the hull floor are areas where I wiped off some epoxy drops with acetone. When I took the picture, I had not used a tack cloth or wiped down the surface yet.

[Steve Lansdowne]

CPES prices were relatively low at www.japanwoodworker.com (http://www.japanwoodworker.com) when I bought some last year.

[john l]

carl, did or are you going to pull bungs and tighten up fasterns in trouble areas (particularly in the chine and centerboard areas)or rely on the epoxy/cpes? i think i will chek a few screws in trouble areas and determine course of action. there are a lot of screws and i know the ultimate restoration process but i think most of the fastensings should be good with bad areas being clearly identified. we had 6inches of snow the other day. my penguin is bottom side up on saw horses and covered with tarps. clear snow off to reduce weight. sunday is suposed to be sunny so i'll take tarps off and sand the aft end of boat. i'll take some fotos and post sunday nite or monday. cheers john