mast hoops

[capt jake]

I am pondering making some mast hoops. Only 5" and not a lot of pressure on the rig. Only need 6 of them as well.

In digging through the shop I have some Alaskan Yellow Cedar, Red Oak and Honduran Mahogany (lots more but nothing in the sizes needed. ;) ).

Would the Alaskan work OK for this, or would I be better advised to use the Red Oak?

[Bob Cleek]

None of the above. You'll need bending stock, I'm afraid. Particularly for a five inch diameter. You'd probably be better off lacing the luff. Or, cut some rings from suitably sized PVC pipe. You may be able to laminate them with the oak, if you rip it very thin, but that's about it.

[ 09-25-2005, 01:43 AM: Message edited by: Bob Cleek ]

[merlinron]

you don't need bending stock...hoops can be very easily made from 3/4" fiber backed edge band stock. pick a wood of your choice( i like maple), make a mold, in your case, a 5" dia. piece of 3/4 ply, sand the edge as smooth as you can and givit a couple good coats of varnish. when it's dry, give it a couple coats of johnson's paste wax and screw it down to a well waxed(johnson's again) piece of laminate covered particle board, like a cut out piece of counter top from a sink installation. now give one side of the edge banding a coat of epoxy and wrap it around the mold you made untill you have as many layers as you need. tack the end down with a brad or two, the brad holes can be filled later with thickened epoxy. for a 5" hoop, i would go with 4-5 layers.when it cures it will pop off with a little prying by getting a sharp chisel under it and working around the circumfrence a little at a time like opening a can of paint. sand it nice and ease the edges, give it a coat(s) of varnish.
i built a couple this way to see if it could be done . i made a 4-1/2" hoop with only 3 layers and i could support my 200 lb. body hung from it on a 3" dia. iron pipe. they cost a couple bucks a piece to make this way, just figure how much stock you need (3.1416 x dia x no. of hoops),plus a bit for the increasing dia. of layers(couple inches/hoop).

[David Toner]

Here's a mast hoop idea that was successful on a small gaff sail rig for a Melonseed skiff. Use some good quality 3/4" thick marine ply . Use a large hole saw, skill saw, scroll saw or what have you to cut the inside diameter. Cut the outside diameter to the dimension that you think you will need to do the job. (1" worked well on the hoops for a 3" mast.) You can pretty it up with a 1/8" hardwood cap on top and bottom to make it 1" square in section. Round the corners inside and out with your favorite shaping tool. (A router table with a 1/4" quarter round bit worked well. Watch your fingers!) Sand, varnish and there you have it.

[ishmael]

Not a bunch of experience, but Bob's right, you want dead green, straight, ash or oak for traditional hoops. Tight bends like that call for good stock, and anything other than really green and really straight-grained is gonna break.

The mold I used was a simple circle mounted to a base. The circle had a divot where you drove the rivets, and was open in the center for some clamps IIRC. Gotta calculate the length for two rounds, and taper the ends so you have a relatively consistent thickness. Don't plan on getting it right first try.

Isn't their someone who is still making them in various sizes, maybe Lowell's Dory Shop in MA? If you want to play, have after it, but buying them would be a lot easier. Lacing or parrels easier still. Cheap and effective.

[capt jake]

I currently have parrels but have never been 'really' satisfied with them. Recently had one bead break also.

Pert Lowell still manufactures them, but I like to 'make' things. ;) ;)

David, good to see you around, I still get a far off gaze when I think of the boats you had at you place when I was there. smile.gif smile.gif They were beauties! smile.gif

The 5' radius is pretty tight, thus my initial inquiry. ;) There is a brief article on making them in WB #65 that started my 'pondering'. smile.gif

[capt jake]

I ended up using plywood, sort of. I laminated 3 layers of 5 ply 1/4" plwood with. This was I ended up with 15 plies amd plenty of streangh, plus it was free scrap in the shop. ;) Then cut the rough demension of the outside on the bandsaw. Drilled a hole in the center and chucked it to the lathe. Used the lathe to true the outside and a parting tool to cut the inside dimension of the hoops.

I used a router to ease the eadges and then began the tedious sessions of sanding.

More than adequate and with the thin plies, it actually looks like grai. ;)
http://www.messing-about.com/forum/download.php?id=2985

[Keith Wilson]

Pert Lowell Company in Newbury, MA has been making mast hoops since the '30s. If you decide not to make your own, they'll sell you some.

They use red oak, which they boil (not steam) in a water-alcohol mix (isopropyl, I think, although I'm not certain), wrap around a form, and then rivet. I'd try the red oak; splitting (riving) it to rough size rather than sawing will ensure straight grain. Soak it for a few days, then boil it. It won't waste much wood even if it doesn't work, and it might be fun.

[ 11-18-2005, 10:56 AM: Message edited by: Keith Wilson ]

[capt jake]

I tried making the 'wrapped' kind. You see I ended up with a 'different' design. ;)

[Keith Wilson]

Oh well, if it doesn't work you can always buy them here. (http://www.pertlowell.com/wood/wood.html#mast_hoops)

[Thorne]

A lot of excellent suggestions. Here is a pdf of the TSCA _Ash Breeze_ with an article showing pics of the mast hoop form and bending process -

http://www.tsca.net/pdf/TABv26-3.pdf

Scroll down to the Woodbending Seminar pics.

[dmbotsko]

Embroidery hoops from your local sewing store or hobby lobby.

[capt jake]

Embroidery hoops are nearly strong enough! :eek:

[Thorne]

Embriodery hoops?

What, no power tools? No toxic chemicals? No boiling liquids, or burned fingers?

That would be....no fun.

;- )

[David McCollum]

Should mast hoops be varnished? I did varnish mine, but boy were they sticky after that. By that I mean it was difficult to hoist the sail without having them bind on the mast.

I noticed that Pert Lowell finishes theirs with a mixture of linseed oil and turpentine.

[Bob Quick]

Capt Jake

[Bob Quick]

Capt. Jake
How did you attach the hardware? Both to the hoop and to the sail. I want to try hoops on my P14 and have been debating the pros and cons. I'd really like to see how you did it.

Thanks
Bob

[capt jake]

I just whipped them onto the sail with tarred marline. I had parrel beads before and that is how they were attached also. It held up extremely well.

The only reason I changed from parrels was that my mast is slightly square, thus the beads held up when they needed to turn on a downwind run. The hoops should solve the problem. ;)

Edited to add: I finished them with multiple coats of linseed oil. After letting them cure for quite a while, I gave them a couple of coats of waterbased poly. Not sure how well that will hold up yet. :eek:

It took quite a bit of fussing with the finish (sanding) with all of the exposed end grain in the ply, but they are quite sound. smile.gif

[ 11-18-2005, 10:26 PM: Message edited by: capt jake ]

[Roger Cumming]

I've never understood why anyone would use mast hoops when they could lace the sail to the mast. Admittedly, I only spent 15 years sailing one gaff-rigged 5 ton yawl with the laced mainsail. Not once did the sail ever fail to come down quickly, including during strong winds and rough seas. The varnished spruce mast looked as good at the end of the season as it did at the beginning. I don't think the boat would have sailed better with hoops. Even the lacing line lasted for years.

Hoops seem to be hard to make, a constant maintenance problem, they scrape the mast, and seem to me to offer nothing more than a simple lacing line provides. You do have to lace the sail on correctly (English style), but if you already have a gaff-rigged boat that sails perhaps no closer than 50 or 55 degrees to the wind, lacing lines seem to me to be a low-tech cheap foolproof obvious way to attach the sail to the stick. What am I missing here?

[StevenBauer]

I guess you haven't seen JohnB (or his kids) climb up them to do mast maintenance. :D

Steven

[Cullen T.M. McGough]

Well, ya can finish them anyway you want. But then slush that mast down with Vaseline. Or whale fat, if you're a real purist...
Of course, this may make a mess of your fancy yacht finish. If you like that sort of thing.

-Pirate Cullen


Originally posted by David McCollum:
Should mast hoops be varnished? I did varnish mine, but boy were they sticky after that. By that I mean it was difficult to hoist the sail without having them bind on the mast.

I noticed that Pert Lowell finishes theirs with a mixture of linseed oil and turpentine.

[TimothyB]

Originally posted by Roger Cumming:
*snip* lacing lines seem to me to be a low-tech cheap foolproof obvious way to attach the sail to the stick. What am I missing here?I don't think you're missing anything. smile.gif Beaded parrels were common in smaller boats, and you could use them in larger ones nowadays given the strength of modern line.

http://www.whitehallrow.com/details/parral_beads.jpg
Parrels on the HMS Rose, at the San Diego Maritime Museum
http://izap.com/~kathm/HMS%20Surprise%20web%20files/images/IMG_1711.jpg

I'm not an authority, so perhaps one will pipe in here, however it would seem to me that wooden mast hoops were created as a cost saving way to attach sails to a mast since they would likely have more longevity than a parrel, plus you could attach a sail to them with mechanical fasteners rather than line. Also, there would likely be less maintenance than on parrels.

[Thorne]

Would parrel beads only be used for gaff sails, ditto for lacing?

What exactly is 'English-style' lacing -- cross-lacing with a straight loop between cross-laced attachment points?

Just picked up a used cotton marconi sail with a bolt rope on the luff for my dory to use for some theatrical venues (17th-19th C. reenactment), and was wondering what sort of method I should use to attach it to the mast?

Some of the guys I sail with at these events have gaff-rigged boats with mast hoops for the sail and parrel beads for the gaff.

[ 11-21-2005, 12:22 PM: Message edited by: Thorne ]

[Yakhook]

Folks,

For what it might be worth smile.gif , I solved this problem to my satisfaction several years ago by using Grommets as “Mast Hoops”. The Grommets were made using very traditional looking Un-Manila. For those not familiar with it, it’s a Laid construction line of Tan toned Polyethylene. The “Hoops” are laced to the sail with Dacron cord. Quite good looking I think :cool: . The Polypropylene doesn’t stretch when wet and is slicker’n Owl Sh.. er... Droppings :D . No wear in 10 years or so.

Paul

[Roger Cumming]

Lacing the mainsail English Style - let's see if I can explain it: Starting at the top of the sail's luff the lacing line is made fast at the top grommet (preferably spliced), then goes around the mast and through the next grommet down. From there the line goes straight down through the next grommet and then around the mast in the opposite direction to the way it first went around, to the next grommet, then straight down to the next grommet, and so on. This results in relatively few loops around the mast and probably accounts for the ease with which the sail comes down when the halyards are let go.

[capt jake]

Everybody has an opinion when this topic comes up. All of them varied and with valid points of view from either side. I see the merits to both lacing and grommets, and who knows; maybe I will end up lacing at some point.

In the mean time, I like the looks of the hoops and will play with them for a while, then I will make a decision.

I like vanilla, you like chocolate. Who's right? ;)

[ 11-23-2005, 12:40 PM: Message edited by: capt jake ]