What's your favorite crosscut handsaw?

[Yeadon]

I've got a little cash wasting away in my pocket (woo-hoo! the bar's open!), and need a new crosscut handsaw. I'm thinking another little japanese style pull saw is in order.

Any recommendations?

[Jay Greer]

Since I discovered Japanese saws thirty years ago, I haven't used a Western hand saw.
Jay

[Ron Carter]

My Japanese pull saw was about $20 at Lowes. It has replaced all of my hand saws except the hack saw. Rarely get the skil saw out except for long rips. 6 months of regular use and no sign of loss of sharpness yet. Bought it to see if I would like it enough to get a more spendy version from Woodcraft. Now I can't see any reason to spend more.

[Tom Lathrop]

Since I discovered Japanese saws thirty years ago, I haven't used a Western hand saw.
Jay

Ditto.

[Pernicious Atavist]

Ditto that ditto!

These things are really sharp when new, aren't they, much more than a Western-type. I once slipped while cutting my boat free from its building platform and lightly struck my leg with my new pull saw--blood everywhere!

What a great saw--I'll never use a Western-style again!

[Thorne]

Quaitto the previous posts. Have the Western saws, try to use 'em every once in a while, then go back to the Japanese style. But the latter do go dull and I think can't be resharpened, or not easily.

[Paul Girouard]

http://images.rockler.com/rockler/images/65482.jpg

http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?Offerings_ID=1064&TabSelect=Details

There's a store down on Corson / Michigan st. Or Hardwick's.

Once you go Japanese you'll never go back.;)

[Paul Girouard]

Quaitto the previous posts. Have the Western saws, try to use 'em every once in a while, then go back to the Japanese style. But the latter do go dull and I think can't be resharpened, or not easily.

Buy a new REPLACEMENT blade . Saves about 1/2 the cost.

[TimH]

If you want to empty your pockets look at this :-)

http://www.garrettwade.com/

[Yeadon]

If you want to empty your pockets look at this :-)

http://www.garrettwade.com/

I see we're all in basic agreement. The japanese saws are great tools to have around.

That garretwade side has a halfway decent deal right now. Four japanese saws of various sizes for $90 (usually $129). Not the worst deal ever. Not sure what the shipping is, though.

I've got a Marples japanese saw from Home Depot. Loved it to death. Maybe I should just go ahead and get the replacement blade.

When I posted this yesterday, it was Sunday, and I'm pretty sure that Hardwick's is closed on Sunday. They are open today, however ...

[Jay Greer]

When I bought my first Japanese pull saw, I spent only about twenty five bucks on it. It is well that I did because it took a while for me to understand the saw. In fact it took several years for me to learn the full secrets and subtile nuances of these amazing tools. Later, I bit the bullet and bought a hand made saw. The difference was kind of like comparing a Ferrari to a skate board! Now my saw kit contains over thirty saws, each with it's own special purpose. My most often used saw is a 250mm ryoba. The flame tempered saw teeth are hard enough to last three to four years between sharpenings. Hida Tool & Hardware Co. in Berkley CA is the company I deal with. The staff is both curtious as well as helpful. Once a year they sponsor a convention for those who work with Japanese tools that is a heck of a lot of fun if you interested in ultra fine wood working.
Jay

[Yeadon]

When I bought my first Japanese pull saw, I spent about twenty five bucks on it. It is well that I did because it took a while for me to understand the saw. In fact it took several years for me to learn the full secrets and subtile nuances of these amazing tools. Later, I bit the bullet and bought a hand made saw. The difference was kind of like comparing a dirt bike to a skate board! Now my saw kit contains over thirty saws, each with it's own special purpose. My most often used saw is a 250mm ryoba. The flame tempered saw teeth are hard enough to last three to four years between sharpenings.
Jay

Do you sharpen yourself, or have a trusted place to send it?

[StevenBauer]

When I first moved to Maine in 1990 I had just read an article in Fine Woodworking about Japanese saws. My new boss was a guy from Arkansas, first day on the job he holds out a Japanese style saw and says "Ya know what kind of saw this is?" I paused for a second to decide whether to just call it a ryoba or a dozuki or what. While I was pondering Ol' Mitch told me himself: "That there's a Jappo saw!"
:D:D:D


Steven

[bloggs68]

Have a look at Lee Valley's japanese plywood saw
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=32939&cat=1,42884,42924

A bit sturdier than the standard saw. I use mine on hardwoods/softwoods and anything else on boats. Been through about 10 blades over the last few years of hard use and it honestly has been the best general purpose japanese saw I have used. I have a few others that hardly get used unless I am doing fine joinery work.

FWIW

AD

[Battenkiller]

My Japanese pull saw was about $20 at Lowes. Bought it to see if I would like it enough to get a more spendy version from Woodcraft. Now I can't see any reason to spend more.

I'd be wary of the top end Japanese saws from Woodcraft. I used to work for them and we used to get a lot back with stripped teeth. They are just too hard for robust cutting in hardwoods. For woods like cedar, however, they cut like a dream.

I grew up using western style saws, so I have a pretty fair technique with them. I love the Lie-Nielsen saws. They can be resharpened by L-N for a nominal fee.

Still, I almost always use a cheap dozuki or ryoba (I have the one the WoodenBoat Store sells) saw for most of my crosscuts. Plus, I have made some pretty impressive rip cuts in 8" wet white oak with the rip side of the ryoba so I guess I'm pretty much sold on them for general use.

[Bob Smalser]

Much as I also like Japanese saws, do you really think the western craftsmen who produced the high-end yachts of the Golden Age of 1890-1929 accepted a lesser standard of hand saw than their Japanese counterparts? C'mon.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/17912799/280287733.jpg

Japanese teeth on a western saw? Or do they just look a bit Japanese?

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/17912799/280287204.jpg

Western saws began to decline around the time automatic filing machines came into common use in the 1920's. Machine-filed teeth are significantly shorter and less aggressive than what can be achieved with hand filing, and top sawmakers like Disston continued to hand file teeth for decades after they could have switched to machine filing.

Compound that with the massive generation gap in hand tool knowledge that occurred between the late 1930's and the early 1970's, and you have subsequent generations that never really understood saw filing. Even today most hand filers simply duplicate the inferior machine-filed teeth they are accustomed to.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/9131162/269216752.jpg

The good news is that so many old hand-tensioned, highly-polished, highly taper-ground, originally hand-filed saws have survived that they are relatively inexpensive, and learning to file your own saws isn't difficult. With some effort, you can have a saw that'll hold its own with the best hand-made, taper-ground Japanese saws for a fraction of the price. Saws you can touch up in 20 minutes rather than pay 30 bucks for a replacement blade or send back to Japan. Shucks, I'm only paying around 30 bucks for near-perfect, pre-1927 D-8 general purpose saws like the three in my first two pics. Specialty cabinetmaker saws in excellent condition run more, but rarely more than 40 bucks for a #16, 60 bucks for a #12 or a hundred bucks for a #120 like in my third pic. ;)

Advanced Handsaw Filing and Restoration (http://www.woodenboatvb.com/vbulletin/upload/showthread.php?p=1665156#post1665156)

[Yeadon]

I was waiting for Bob to stop by. Thanks Bob. Always good stuff from the man in Seabeck.

[Jay Greer]

Do you sharpen yourself, or have a trusted place to send it?
A standard Japanese cross cut saw has teeth that are multi beveled. The process of hand filing them is an art in itself that is beyond the scope of the average wood worker.
I send my saws to Hida Tool for sharpening by their service. One mistake, that caused damage to my saw, I made in the beginning of my introduction to Japanese saws was not knowing that a soft wood saw and those intended for cutting hard woods have teeth that are of two entirely different shapes. A hard wood saw also has an arc shaped blade to increase it's cutting efficiency. So the saw used for cutting pine and cedar is entirely different from one that would be used for teak or oak.
Jay

[goodbasil]

A Disston D-8, better yet a D=12, an Atkins, Spear & Jackson all these are available a flea markets, check for straightness, enough handle to work with, sharpen her up, (not hard to learn) and Bob's your uncle.
Japanese saws are great, but they are not all greated equal. I had a collector friend about 20 years ago, who has since passed on who showed me a picture of a Japanese saw priced at $6,500.00 and you couldn't tell the differance from the $20.00 ones until about 100 years had passes and you realized that you'd never had to sharpen it.
I have another collector friend who has a collection of tools including
at last count 175 saws, mostly Amercian and mostly Disston.

[Hughman]

I went back to Western saws, once I learned how to sharpen them. A fellow forumite taught me what to look for in a saw, and it makes a difference! In many ways, they're more efficient and can be tuned for specific purposes.Bob's post added some nuance to what I've learned, Thanks, Bob.I built my house with a Japanese saw, and learned how to cut beams and posts dead square with it, so I'm still using these saws for the things they excell in.

[Bob Cleek]

I'm with Smalser 100 percent! Guys buy a Japanese saw and it's sharp out of the box, so they are amazed. For many years I was among the Great Unwashed who had never really used a sharp Western handsaw. I'd inherited a few old Distons along the way. One was a small panel saw that I wanted to try out, so I took it to my saw sharpening magician. He took one look at it and said, "Oh, I'll have my dad (who started the business and is semi-retired) take care of this one. It's special." And it is! Next thing I did was bring the rest of my old Distons into him. I can keep them touched up when necessary, but every so often, I bring them in for a five or ten buck job by the pros. Worth every penny. And, hey, we DID win the war, didn't we?

[Tom Robb]

WWII was about saws?
Ya learn somthing new every day.

[Yeadon]

Almost as much as Iraq is about freedom. Or saws. Or anything other than ego and habit.

Incidently, I swung by Hardwicks yesterday and bought a $27 ryoba 240mm doubled sided pullsaw. That sucker is sharp.

I also have a Disston D8, which I need to sharpen. I bought it for $3 a while back at swap shop out near Maltby. It's my plan to follow The Smalser Plan and rehab the saw.

[pipefitter]

Gotta say I like the Jap saws as well. The hardwood saws work with just the weight of hand which is hard for many folks to get used to along with using the full stroke and letting the blade clean out the kerf on the push stroke without trying to cut with both strokes. I have watched guys try to hack with them. I was disappointed with the freud version after using the real deal. It does work well for pruning though.

[jackster]

Ol' Bob, he's never at a loss fer snippy oopinions is he, C'mon!

[Chip-skiff]

My dearie gave me a combination Japanese-style saw from the Wooden Boat catalog a couple years back. Crosscut on one side, rip teeth on the other. Excellent tool, not as tiring as those I formerly used (perhaps owing to a different angle on the grip and much lighter weight). It also cuts a finer kerf with less splintering on the faces.

Sawing some hardwood (recycled motorcyle crate stock) I hit a nail and buggered the blade. But they sell a replacement, which I ordered. Value-for-money, perhaps the best tool on my bench.

I used to build musical instruments in a place without electricity, and have used cabinetmakers bow-saws and other specialised hand tools. With due respect to the great craftsmen of the past, I think the Japanese-style saw has the edge.

yrs, Chip

[Bill R]

Semi-ditto on the japanese saws.

I prefer them for more precision on thinner stock. However when it comes to thicker stock, (2x on up) or "rough" work, I go back to western saws.

[reddog]

The Japanese saws are nice and work well once you get the technique mastered but I just received a 10 point Diston #12 that I think will become my favourite.Prior to this it was a Diston Keystone Sawworks made in Toronto 10 pointer that belonged to my dad.The older Distons were pretty much the pinnacle of western saw development.

Earl

[rotund1]

Got some old Sandviks, they sing real nice.

[Bob Smalser]

Ol' Bob, he's never at a loss fer snippy oopinions is he, C'mon!

Actually, I sit up at night cackling with glee over how I can lead folks here astray.

I mean, who ever heard of buying a tool that can be resharpened by the user instead of scrapping it or sending it back to Japan? Especially when I can teach a 12-year-old to do it in around an hour?

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/4007700/49560838.jpg

Definitely a radical idea. ;)

[Michael Beckman]

Sharpening is a skill I really need to pick up soon. My grandfather gave me an old Disston D-8 that was in need of a bit of cleanup. I scraped the paint off the handle, and sanded the rust off. Its a great saw, but could definitely use a good sharpening.

[Captain Blight]

I found a Stanley 24" backsaw at the antiquities outlet a couple months ago. Last weekend I spent about an hour and a half tuning it up (and for the uninitiated, jointing, filing and setting 24" worth of 13 tpi is something that closely resembles tedious, finicky hard work). But I got it done, and earlier today, just out of curiosity, set up my miter box (http://cgi.ebay.com/19th-century-Cast-Iron-Miter-Box-by-Perfection-USA-EXC_W0QQitemZ140196019275QQihZ004QQcategoryZ13875Q QrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp163 8Q2em118Q2el1247), and crosscut through a 3"x3" chunk of black locust that has been air-drying for 6 years. Got through it in 71 strokes, which ain't too shabby for 13 teeth to the inch.

I wouldn't want to do it on a production basis; but I also wouldn't want to not have the handsaw option. I like Japanese saws, and think they deserve a place in my "shop" I also like my old Disstons, and they have a place in my "shop" too.

So does my Old DeWalt GA (http://cgi.ebay.com/DeWalt-Radial-Arm-Miter-Chop-Saw-Machine-GA-Model-T_W0QQitemZ110267617969QQihZ001QQcategoryZ20787QQr dZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1638Q 2em118Q2el1247). That's my *Favorite* crosscut saw.

[Bob Smalser]

Sharpening is a skill I really need to pick up soon. My grandfather gave me an old Disston D-8 that was in need of a bit of cleanup. I scraped the paint off the handle, and sanded the rust off. Its a great saw, but could definitely use a good sharpening.

Bring it by some evening. It's about 45 miles. A 20 minute job.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/9131162/274961556.jpg

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/9131162/266424123.jpg

[Mrleft8]

I used to love the Zona dovetail saws...Ultra thin (Thinner than Japanese saws) kerf, and razor sharp. I think they have24 tpi. I bought a new one last year, and a slightly larger version as well....Both are useless. "Dull straight out of the box".

[BrianY]

Question: How much of the preference for Japanese saws can be attributed the availability of sharp blades?

It seems to me that it's easy for everyone to obtain a sharp Japanese blade whereas it is not so easy to do the same with western blades. Is it mostly a matter of the availabilty of cheap presharpened and replacable blades versus the investment of time and effort to learn how to sharpen Western blades yourself?

I have used medium priced and cheap Japanese saws and an expertly sharpened Disston (not mine) and I found that I don't really have a preference for the way they cut, the handle style, etc. For me, the deciding factor in my preference is how sharp the blade is. Since I do not have the necessary skill to sharpen my Western saws, I buy and use the presharpend Japanese saws. Is that a preference for one style over the other? No. It IS however a preference for SHARP over DULL.

[Don Z.]

Actually, I sit up at night cackling with glee over how I can lead folks here astray.


Definitely a radical idea. ;)

Mr. Smalser... I agree with you 100%. But I think the opinions he was referring to were shared by Mr. Cleek! The other Bob, as it were.

I've always thought of one of the two being educational, while the other is both educational and entertaining. I would pay good money for a copy of the China Diesel thread...

[Cuchilo]

I also went back to the western saws after cleaning up an old sandvik i found . I then went onto ebay and picked up a few tyzaks . You can pick them up so cheap that even if they are rubbish you dont feel hard done by . I also then went onto chisels and found the older chisels where better metal and far easier to sharpen .

[Keith Wilson]

Thanks very much Bob. I've been using Japanese saws, but I picked up an old Disston D-23 at an antique store, God help us, for eight bucks. I think I'll learn to sharpen it and give it a go. I like the idea of doing it myself rather then just buying another blade, although I draw the line at using a straight razor. ;)

[Bob Smalser]

Question:
It seems to me that it's easy for everyone to obtain a sharp Japanese blade whereas it is not so easy to do the same with western blades. Is it mostly a matter of the availability of cheap presharpened and replacable blades versus the investment of time and effort to learn how to sharpen Western blades yourself?


Certainly. The skills involved aren't mutually exclusive.

Can you follow a scribed line?

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/17912799/280198050.jpg

Can you hold a consistent angle?

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/5090019/325525823.jpg

If you can't master those simple tasks while sharpening tools, then how do you ever expect to do the same using those tools on wood?

The skills involved are identical....improvement in one is improvement in the other. It's just a matter of teaching yourself to do it.

Sharpening Handsaws (http://www.woodenboatvb.com/vbulletin/upload/showthread.php?t=2542&highlight=sharpening+hand+saws)

Basic Edge Tool Sharpening (http://www.woodenboatvb.com/vbulletin/upload/showthread.php?t=9336)

Two Horses (http://www.woodenboatvb.com/vbulletin/upload/showthread.php?t=70617&highlight=two+horses)

Straightening Bent Handsaws (http://www.woodenboatvb.com/vbulletin/upload/showthread.php?t=68558)

Advanced Handsaw Filing and Restoration (http://www.woodenboatvb.com/vbulletin/upload/showthread.php?p=1665156#post1665156)

[Captain Blight]

There is something about that old, Bessemer-process cast steel that will take and hold an edge like nothing else. It has a... I don't know, a "warmer" feel to it? Even though it's just as hard as the modern stuff, it seems like it sharpens a lot easier and strops out to a lot smoother edge. I've got some old Swan and Hibbard Spenser Bartlett chisels, and I'd rather lose a toe than get rid of them.

[Cuchilo]

My latest haul


http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c368/JFCarpentry/18032008156.jpg

[Bob Cleek]

An' don't ferget... when your old Western handsaw is beyond redemption (if ever) you can always cut it up into really top notch scrapers!

It bears noting that guys like Smalser who can fix and rehabilitate old handtools are really reducing their "carbon footprints." I find it amusing that so many who are enamored with "saving the environment" will opt for "modern" boatbuilding tools and materials, like plywood, epoxies and poly-goops, because they "want to save the rainforest" and so on, but they never stop to add up the energy consumption, pollution and so on, that all those pre-manufactured materials eat up before they ever reach the ultimate consumer. I wonder how much energy and pollution is saved by rehabing an old saw compared to buying a new one, not to mention money. Every so often, I pull out my copy of the "Tool Box" picture book and marvel at the old tools in those collectable antique tool chests. A master shipwright or cabinetmaker could build the finest boats or furniture with just a few handtools in a single chest. (And their "secret" was simple... they kept them sharp.) Look at what all we "need" to do simple carpentry today!

Maybe we are headed for a depression. The time may come when we realize our "throw away society" needs to be "recycled" itself. "Smalser" might just be "betser!"

[Yeadon]

The phrase "you totally smalser'd that" will take on a whole new meaning.

[gary porter]

I have any number of Diston and Stanley saws and most of them are pretty good especially the older Distons but my favorite as far as Western style are two Lynx saws by Garlick & Sons, one rip and one crosscut. They may cost a little more but are great saws.
I really enjoy using them and only use them for the good stuff. I have one newer Stanley that is worthless which I only use for cutting fish now. I do like the Japanese saws and for cutting dovetails and the like will always go for them.
Gary

[Michael Beckman]

Bring it by some evening. It's about 45 miles. A 20 minute job.

That'd be great. I take off for 3 weeks of sailing starting Wednesday, so I can't take up your offer right away. I'll send you a message when I get back. Thanks.

[Vince Brennan]

Bob, thank you. That's a valuable resource you've given us.

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

The one I grab for most often is an 11 TPI cabinet saw made by the Forest City Saw Works sometime around WWI. When it's well sharpened I can nip along the edge of a well laid pencil line even if it is somewhat curved. I used it to cut out all the parts for my pram. It was way more controllable than my $140 Bosch jig saw.
Cutting all that plywood really took it's toll on the teeth. I think it's the gluelines that cause the dulling.
I also have a run-of-the-mill Disston that I found laying in the street when I was out jogging late one night. It had been run over but the handle was OK and the edge was still on the teeth. A little light hammer work straightened the blade. I also found a heavy duty sissor jack on that same curve on another jog.

[soba]

About 3 years ago I found a rusted up pre-war Stanley crosscut saw. Most of the blade was unsalvageable, but we cleaned it up and mounted it with a turned handle to make it into a pull-saw.

I discovered then that I could actually make a proper square cut. I'm so ham-handed that the ease of making square cuts with a pull saw changed my world.

I have one japanese saw made with GIN-1 steel (an older knife steel) that has been just incredible. But other than that, I'd say I reach for my old home-made stanley butcher-job.

I gotta make a rip like that one...but the convenience of the bandsaw cripples my handsaw technique...

[SV Papillon]

Although the "Don't buy a Japanese saw!" horse seems quite dead. Can anyone reccommend 2 japanese saws for the shop. I live a couple blocks from hardwicks in seattle. When I went up to look at the saws, they have a glass case with too many to count. A sales guy gave me one he said would be good for all around but I have no idea what style it is etc.. about $20. Highland woodworking had a essentials for the shop list out a while ago, with two japanese saw types but I can't find it. I like the small size on the boat where tool storage will be a issue.

Thanks,

Jake

[gary porter]

Jake, look at Japan Woodworker either online or catalog, they have the best selection of Japanese tools including saws. They give some explanation of each but basically you have to decide on what purpose you want the saw for. There is a general purpose pull saw on the market which I think is called Bear Saw made by Vaughn which is very nice for general cross cutting. For dovetails etc. buy the most expensive one you can afford for that purpose. Good Luck
Gary

[BETTY-B]

Although the "Don't buy a Japanese saw!" horse seems quite dead. Can anyone reccommend 2 japanese saws for the shop. I live a couple blocks from hardwicks in seattle. When I went up to look at the saws, they have a glass case with too many to count. A sales guy gave me one he said would be good for all around but I have no idea what style it is etc.. about $20. Highland woodworking had a essentials for the shop list out a while ago, with two japanese saw types but I can't find it. I like the small size on the boat where tool storage will be a issue.

Thanks,

Jake

Jake,

The one I get from Hardwicks has a red handle, a bunch of Japanese writing and a "Z" on it. It folds and can be locked in any position for getting into tight places a breeze. They cut real well and replacment blades dont cost an arm and a leg(if used properly). I've noticed several shipwrights in PT have them too.

DAN

[gary porter]

Dan, do you have any part number on that saw. I thought I might get one from Hardwicks but their online catalog is down. Thought it would be good to know what I'm asking for.
Thanks
Gary

[BETTY-B]

Hishi Z. ORIKKO 210. She said to make sure to say folding saw for some reason too.

DAN

[gary porter]

Thanks Dan.. I'll get it.
Gary