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ishmael
01-17-2008, 10:23 PM
Everywhere I look in the culture these days people are selling fear. Be afraid your identity has been stolen, be afraid someone is going to blow off a nuke, be afraid the government it watching. Fear, fear, fear.

Without flensing out the details of what we should be afraid of, what affect does this have on the psyche?

Kaa
01-17-2008, 10:25 PM
Obedience to those who promise to protect you.

Kaa

TimH
01-17-2008, 10:29 PM
A far cry from the old days when America (and its peple) were strong...

"We have nothing to fear but fear itself"

BETTY-B
01-17-2008, 10:36 PM
http://www.seancoon.org/wp-content/postimages/bush-be-afraid.jpg

ishmael
01-17-2008, 10:39 PM
Just musing, listening to the radio ads for early morning talk. They are, almost exclusively ads for protection, with a few sentimental ads for flowers thrown in. Ads on right wing radio.

I don't listen much, but enough to get a sense of a very strong fear. I think it's a fear that is a bit unprecedented in our media. Every other ad is how to protect yourself. Your neighbor isn't your neighbor. Be afraid, be very afraid.

The recent downturn in the housing market has played a part, but these ads were running before that.

Vince Brennan
01-17-2008, 10:46 PM
First, I think you meant "fleshing", not "flensing", which is removal of blubber from a whale.

I'm 62 and some.... there is NOTHING today, not AIDS, not Bush, not the market, nothing that can be as damaging to the psyche (within your given parameters) than the fear I grew up with that "the Rooshians wuz gonna turn us into a Nookleer Lava Pool".

It freaked me out totally as a kid. Every time a siren went off I was sure that "this was the big 'un" and to this day I cannot hear an aircraft go by without reverting to my CAD training and trying to "spot the Badger."

I'm firmly convinced that the fear we lived with on a daily basis (remember "Duck and Cover" drills?) so warped our psyches that it was a major contributing factor to the "You Can't Trust Anyone Over Thirty" attitude of the '60's and '70's movements.

We were ready for anything to happen... and expected the worst. SciFi was heavy on "post-apocalyptic" stories, fallout shelters (and how you were gonna keep the neighbours out of 'em) were discussed over and over...

This stuff today isn't squat compared to those fears. Personal Identities theft, market collapse... they don't hold a candle to immolation.

Paul Girouard
01-17-2008, 10:53 PM
Without flensing out the details of what we should be afraid of, what affect does this have on the psyche?



Gosh whale blubber ,:confused: really Vince ??? but really Jack, I'm afraid to ask! LOL

Greg P H
01-17-2008, 10:58 PM
Fear is a choice... I choose to be happy

Bruce Hooke
01-17-2008, 11:05 PM
What is notable is that at both the height of the cold war and right now, when there is a lot of fear about, the reaction has been to curtail civil rights in various ways in the largely vain hope that this would somehow protect us.

ishmael
01-17-2008, 11:06 PM
No, I meant flensing.

PeterSibley
01-18-2008, 12:17 AM
First, I think you meant "fleshing", not "flensing", which is removal of blubber from a whale.

I'm 62 and some.... there is NOTHING today, not AIDS, not Bush, not the market, nothing that can be as damaging to the psyche (within your given parameters) than the fear I grew up with that "the Rooshians wuz gonna turn us into a Nookleer Lava Pool".

It freaked me out totally as a kid. Every time a siren went off I was sure that "this was the big 'un" and to this day I cannot hear an aircraft go by without reverting to my CAD training and trying to "spot the Badger."

I'm firmly convinced that the fear we lived with on a daily basis (remember "Duck and Cover" drills?) so warped our psyches that it was a major contributing factor to the "You Can't Trust Anyone Over Thirty" attitude of the '60's and '70's movements.

We were ready for anything to happen... and expected the worst. SciFi was heavy on "post-apocalyptic" stories, fallout shelters (and how you were gonna keep the neighbours out of 'em) were discussed over and over...

This stuff today isn't squat compared to those fears. Personal Identities theft, market collapse... they don't hold a candle to immolation.

You're right Vince ...it was just like a background noise ...something that was ever there .

boylesboats
01-18-2008, 01:07 AM
Well, who can we trust anymore?

P.L.Lenihan
01-18-2008, 01:35 AM
Well, who can we trust anymore?

Go with your gut feeling Larry.As young children we trust and believe just about anyone and anything. As we grow older and gain experience, we begin to discriminate between what appears as trust worthy and what is not trust worthy. We develope our own internal protocals or list of criteria which have to be met before trust is granted.The more you get out and expose yourself to life, the more accurate the criteria becomes to the point where you are comfortable and confident enough to fully engage in your life without being held down with needless fears.:)

Peter

Andrew Craig-Bennett
01-18-2008, 05:50 AM
Vince Brennan writes:

I'm firmly convinced that the fear we lived with on a daily basis (remember "Duck and Cover" drills?) so warped our psyches that it was a major contributing factor to the "You Can't Trust Anyone Over Thirty" attitude of the '60's and '70's movements.


I need a smiley for "light bulb!":)

Thank you, Vince!

I never thought of that, but as a 55 year old father of boys, what you write is absolutely correct. THAT was exactly why we distrusted our parents and all other authority fiugures - THEY had got us into this terrifying mess!

PeterSibley
01-18-2008, 05:57 AM
Unfortunately WE haven't got us out of it ....those warheads and missiles are still there .

Phillip Allen
01-18-2008, 06:30 AM
yes...I remember "duck and cover" and I very early on grew to resent it and all other manipulitive BS...It still works on me and I still resent it when I detect it. Like Vence says, it is so emeshed in our thinking that we miss it when it's gone and the corporate world takes advantage of it...even Viagra is sold by scaring a bunch of guys that their pecker will fall off if they don't get this latest defense against "etc". Women are sold beeswax and perfume cause if they don't use it they'll be pitched out with the trash..."age is to be feared" (even children are sold fast cars to prevent aging)

cynicism seems to be the main defense

Tylerdurden
01-18-2008, 07:38 AM
What these A-holes who spread the fear to control left out of their equation is that at some point we move beyond the fear.

The trick is to keep moving no matter how scared you get.
Once a bunch of us all figure it out we will poke their eyes out with a stick.
On the way back we will handle their enablers too.

I get a chubby just thinking of it. http://www.woodenboatvb.com/vbulletin/upload/images/icons/icon10.gif

Hot Air
01-18-2008, 08:06 AM
Sadist.

LeeG
01-18-2008, 08:09 AM
Vince, sounds like you got it more than I did, I'm ten years younger. Although my brother and I both had the view that when we left home at age 18 we'd could be entering a post nuclear apocalyptic world. A lot of our childhood afternoon adventures in the woods (actually the oil derricks and Kern River) were based on "when the bomb hits we'll..."
When missle tests shot from Vandenberg dad would point them out, they'd leave squigglely colorful trails.
In high school I'd figure out the relative sizes of cubes of TNT according to famous nuclear bombs. I'd look at Catalina from San Pedro and figure how big of a bomb it would take to ignite the dry grasses on the hill sides, 23miles away.
But it really wasn't something I was afraid of, more fascinated by.
Which is why I could not jump on the "WMD" band wagon presented by the WhiteHouseIraqGroup. There are specific things to be concerned with, not vague, global "what ifs". With fifty years of very specific threats from USSR and 10,000's of war heads we're supposed to fall over for "what ifs" from a country that was beaten down through two wars and sanctions. None of it smelled right.
My nephews generations viewed AIDS in the same light as nukes for us. That was an eye opener.
Jack, you aren't looking everywhere.

boylesboats
01-18-2008, 10:50 AM
Go with your gut feeling Larry.As young children we trust and believe just about anyone and anything. As we grow older and gain experience, we begin to discriminate between what appears as trust worthy and what is not trust worthy. We develope our own internal protocals or list of criteria which have to be met before trust is granted.The more you get out and expose yourself to life, the more accurate the criteria becomes to the point where you are comfortable and confident enough to fully engage in your life without being held down with needless fears.:)

Peter

Peter,
Thanks, that hits it were it count.:).
I mean this is good posting from you, no harm..

PatCox
01-18-2008, 11:23 AM
I suspected that you meant flensing, Ish, and you produced a sloppy and somewhat incoherent metaphor by using it. Flensing out the details? Flensing is not a detail-oriented operation. I suspect you were saying we should avoid getting bogged down in details and stick to the broad view, and if that was your meaning, "fleshing" would have worked. But "flensing" means using a huge knife on a stick to remove big chunks, so when you say "without flensing out the details," that seems to say "leave all the details in." Which would be the opposite of what you seam to mean. Do you think you are doing what Joyce did, and that using a word which has no real place in your thought is okay if it just sounds like the right word? Thats not what Joyce did; those were all very logical allusions or puns, even if highly arcane and esoteric. In other words, it only looked random if you didn't know the reference.

Just randomely using the wrong word because you like the sound is not poetic. Its babble.

PatCox
01-18-2008, 11:25 AM
Strauss, the philospher behind the neocons, overtly espoused the use of fear, an enemy, as a means to delude the populace into following the elite's plans for world domination. Cheney, his follower, has simply been following the political philosophy he favors. Fascism.

LeeG
01-18-2008, 12:03 PM
Good old Jack, let's talk about global fears but not talk about the details. Because if you talk about the details it removes the fear to a distance for discussion.

What a great way to emulate both thinking and feeling but not really do either one.

ishmael
01-18-2008, 12:05 PM
Setting aside my awkward usage, I find the fear mongering across the board disconcerting. And it's not just in politics. Of course, advertising has always, to some extent, played on people's insecurities to get them to buy the latest car or the newest wrinkle remover. It seems worse than usual these days.

Sometimes the evening news seems little more than the lousy revelations of the day interspersed between pharmaceutical advertising. A part of that is undoubtedly based on the demographics of the baby boom bulge suffering more aches and pains, but someone from another planet would probably scratch their heads and think we're either all very ill or a bunch of hypochondriacs.

I was talking with my old lady friend about this. She has a couple wonky knees, has had some arthroscopic work done on them, but isn't interested in going under the knife more extensively. She doesn't take any prescription medicine, just a little OTC pain medicine. Aside from her knees, at 78 she's as healthy as a proverbial horse. Nice lady, salt of the earth, worked hard all her life, widowed, and she's noticed fear mongering on the rise also.

They say "sex sells" but that seems to have been overtaken by "fear sells." Not that there aren't things to be afraid of in this world, but why sensationalize them? I'd like to see more humor in advertising and the media in general. Pumping fear into peoples' minds has a way of turning into self-fulfilling prophecy.

P.S. Interesting observations on the fear factor in the youth movements of the sixties. I was probably in the last crew to do duck and cover drills. Pretty silly stuff. If someone blows away Cleveland with a hydrogen bomb do you really think getting under your desk and covering your head is going to save you? Better to teach some yoga, so you can stick your head between your legs and kiss your sweet ass goodbye.

Phillip Allen
01-18-2008, 12:05 PM
What are you trying to say Lee

LeeG
01-18-2008, 12:13 PM
Jack likes the fear.

Phillip Allen
01-18-2008, 12:14 PM
you're being somewhat subjective Lee...

ishmael
01-18-2008, 12:19 PM
Yeah, I really love feeling afraid for no good reason, Lee. That's why I'm talking about this media phenomenon, and saying let's stop this, cause I LOVE THE FEAR.

Do you actually read what is written, or do you take a sort of Freudian blank screen approach to posting here?

PatCox
01-18-2008, 12:28 PM
Jack, you are the most frequent to post ruminations about how you fear that this, that, or the other may be the death of us all yet.

I highly recomend a recent book called "The Culture of Fear," which goes way beyond the political and military uses of fear and into the "oh my god, there's lead in the toys," "the urban youths are wilding," "There's a crack epidemic," "sugar, caffeine, cholesterol, eggs, whathave you, are going to kill us all" phenomena.

Phillip Allen
01-18-2008, 12:30 PM
for many, fear and suspicion have become comfortable

ishmael
01-18-2008, 12:35 PM
"Jack, you are the most frequent to post ruminations about how you fear that this, that, or the other may be the death of us all yet."

I am? I'm rather puzzled by that statement. I think I usually post in curiosity, or occasional humor, and very rarely things that betray some basic fear. I hold some fear, like most of us do, but I don't think I dwell on it. Remind me because maybe I'm wrong and don't see it.

LeeG
01-18-2008, 12:40 PM
you're being somewhat subjective Lee...



somewhat. Except for the part where Jack introduces a topic, numerous people go directly to specifics and Jack dissapears into generalities "not wating to flense out" the details.

It's a recurring theme that enables him to hold a slippery pile of jello when most folks would rather pick up discrete ideas that don't melt into each other when passed around and put back on the shelf.

Ok, to the topic. What fears? oh,,that isn't important it's what affect the "fears" have on "the" psyche?

Who's psyche?...oh that doesn't matter, it's the effect that matters.

Stick around and you'll find the effect doesn't matter either but thanks for sharing about the "fears"(undefined) on (an unidentified) psyche.

Greg P H
01-18-2008, 12:41 PM
“If you have fear of some pain or suffering, you should examine whether there is anything you can do about it. If you can, there is no need to worry about it; if you cannot do anything, then there is also no need to worry.”

ishmael
01-18-2008, 12:54 PM
Lee,

Talking about my elder lady friend is very specific. Speaking of the pharmaceutical lobby that has taken over our broadcast news is very specific.

You may not like my posts, Lee, but the accusation that I'm part of the problem because I post gross generalizations, essentially participating in what I decry, is ridiculous. Unless I'm not seeing something, a problem I'm usually open to looking at.

You post much more fear maunder than I do. Usually C&P of this or that conspiracy. You rival, or have rivaled our friend Mark in your posting of the fearful.

Point out where I've done that, and I'll consider the criticism.

Greg P H
01-18-2008, 01:03 PM
somewhat. Except for the part where Jack introduces a topic, numerous people go directly to specifics and Jack dissapears into generalities "not wating to flense out" the details.



I believe what he is trying to indicate or verbalize is that 'fear' is something in itself. (correct me if I'm wrong, no worries)
Everything else, the way it manifests, the way it is triggered, ect. are all symptoms of 'Fear'. They are markers on a path that lead to a way beyond fear like smoke on the horizon. Only in this case the horizon is internal. The only way out is through. The darkest cave holds the greatest treasure, and all that...... ;)

LeeG
01-18-2008, 01:05 PM
Jack, everywhere you look you see people selling fear, a very strong fear, a bit unprecedented in our media, the fear preceded present economic conditions( yet unprecedented?).

You don't want to talk about the details but the effect of this fear on the psyche.

Do I understand you correctly?

Peter Malcolm Jardine
01-18-2008, 01:15 PM
Remember that this is an American thing. Ask this question of the average Canadian, and they would be confused.

George Jung
01-18-2008, 01:36 PM
Don't like Jacks posts? Hmmm.... what are the options.... I wonder.

Some here like fear. Some like to whack people across the side of the head. Everyone has a hobby.

Keith Wilson
01-18-2008, 01:39 PM
Fear sells papers (or the electronic equivalent).

Popeye
01-18-2008, 01:40 PM
canadians are always confused , like right now

PatCox
01-18-2008, 01:55 PM
To answer your question, Ish, this fear makes one suspicious, paranoid, cynical, un-trusting, and overly obedient and willing to submit to a saviour. People start liking uniforms and guns and martial parades and anthems and swat teams, and they put up with searches and torture prisons. They turn in their neighbors.

It makes people authoritarian.

Tanbark Spanker
01-18-2008, 01:59 PM
www.apfn.net

*continues to adjust random electromagnetic wave deflectors that shield the compound*

You know, sometimes those dang'd ol' random electromagnetic waves ain't as random as we'd like to believe.

Bruce Taylor
01-18-2008, 01:59 PM
It makes people authoritarian.

Which brings us back to the first, and best, reply to this thread:


Obedience to those who promise to protect you.

Kaa nailed it.

glenallen
01-18-2008, 02:10 PM
Which brings us back to the first and best, reply to this thread:



Kaa nailed it.

I agree!

ishmael
01-18-2008, 02:10 PM
To answer your question, Ish, this fear makes one suspicious, paranoid, cynical, un-trusting, and overly obedient and willing to submit to a saviour. People start liking uniforms and guns and martial parades and anthems and swat teams, and they put up with searches and torture prisons. They turn in their neighbors.

It makes people authoritarian.

Yeah, I'm pretty well aware of that pattern, Pat. But where have I engaged in that sort of mindless fear was the question. I'm not immune to it, I imagine someone might point to my questions about this very limited access superhighway running from Mexico to Kansas City as an example. The highway is being built, and I do believe the globalist capitalists are making a defacto North American Union. I also said on that post that I wasn't sure if it were good or bad, but it is happening.

Point to a post where I'm a genuine pessimist, and I'll consider it. I am genuinely curious what you are referencing.

LeeG
01-18-2008, 02:20 PM
if you don't want to flense out the details but hypothesize about the effects of an undefined fear on a hypothesized psyche you get pretty close to engaging in mindless fears and not their effects.

ishmael
01-18-2008, 02:25 PM
Oh, I'm done with this thread. Read whatever you want into it. I've tried to say things clearly. If you want a look at weird obfuscation with verbiage read Lee's post.

"if you don't want to flense out the details but hypothesize about the effects of an undefined fear on a hypothesized psyche you get pretty close to engaging in mindless fears and not their effects."

Tanbark Spanker
01-18-2008, 02:30 PM
CHARLIE IS IN THE WIRE, MAN! CHARLIE IS IN THE WIRE! *drops back down into compound's tunnel system*

I have nothing more to add to this discussion, thank you.

Phillip Allen
01-18-2008, 02:40 PM
I think Lee is quibbling over the definition of "is"

LeeG
01-18-2008, 02:43 PM
hey, Jacks the one who sees an unprecedented portrayal of fear that existed previously.

Peter Malcolm Jardine
01-18-2008, 02:50 PM
http://zapatopi.net/afdb/afdbhead.jpg

Osborne Russell
01-18-2008, 05:21 PM
The trouble with duck & cover paranoia was that it exhausted us. Why worry about addiction to oil when the world can end any instant?

You obstreperous young jackanapeses doubtless don't remember something that was always implicit and sometimes explict during the cold war: gee, just as soon as we find some way out of this, think of the abundance of resources, especially new hope and determination, not to mention the dinari, we'll have to deal with our real problems. With our technology, we'll make the world a paradise.

Ha!

LeeG
01-18-2008, 05:26 PM
yep, that peace dividend.

Osborne Russell
01-18-2008, 06:07 PM
yep, that peace dividend.

Looks like it started to take shape under Clinton so the GOP figured, gotta getta grip on this, pronto. A war, any war. A couple wars, what the hey.

Tanbark Spanker
01-18-2008, 06:15 PM
Clinton is still a shill for the Illuminati global imperialists. NAFTA? WTF? These people running for installation into the office of President are all the same breed of lap dog -Barky, Snarky, and Farky.

Osborne Russell
01-18-2008, 06:27 PM
Clinton is still a shill for the Illuminati global imperialists. NAFTA? WTF? These people running for installation into the office of President are all the same breed of lap dog -Barky, Snarky, and Farky.


I'm inclined to agree; still, the difference in the deficit is a difference of substance.