Turpentine

[DaveWhitla]

OK, moving on from blackbutt.

How about turpentine? Physical properties are excellent. Might be a bit too heavy for good planking but I am thinking seriously about it for the keel, stem and sternpost. Apparently its not much fun to work, but at this point that is my least concern.

About the only thing I can see that it doesn't have going for it is dimensional stability in water. Seems to swell and shrink quite a lot.
So, do any of the fine folk here have experience with turpentine and whether or not it would be suitable for backbone timbers?

Thanks,

Dave

[John Turpin]

So, do any of the fine folk here have experience with turpentine

Several hundred years ago, my family produced it. Thus, our family name.

I realize that this is no help to the discussion. Sorry.

[DaveWhitla]

Several hundred years ago, my family produced it. Thus, our family name.

I realize that this is no help to the discussion. Sorry.

You're forgiven :D

[PeterSibley]

Dave .
Regarding the blackbutt thread ...it is usually considered good manners to acknowlege responses , especially when a question has been asked .

[PeterSibley]

Now ,regarding turp ,you might like to have a sample cut ...then watch it .The stuff here on the coast is extremely unpredictable ,it can warp in strange ways ,a bit like brush / Brisbane box (tistaneopsis conferta sp?). Where you are it may be better .

It is reputed to be worm resistant , the local market was for jetty pilings and oyster stakes .

[DaveWhitla]

Dave .
Regarding the blackbutt thread ...it is usually considered good manners to acknowlege responses , especially when a question has been asked .

I apologise for offending anyone.
I thought I had thanked people for their replies. The later ones via personal messages when the conversation was continued off the thread.
I've been madly posting in all manner of forums here and elsewhere so I hope you'll forgive the oversight. :o

[PeterSibley]

Dave , not a problem .

I'd suggest spotted gum as a very good general solution to most structural uses in your project .Tallow wood would be my first choice for the backbone and sawn frames .

[DaveWhitla]

Dave , not a problem .

I'd suggest spotted gum as a very good general solution to most structural uses in your project .Tallow wood would be my first choice for the backbone and sawn frames .

Thanks Peter,

I've already acquired some well seasoned spotted gum for the frames - great stuff for this as far as I can tell.

The reason I'm looking at turpentine is the extreme marine durability. Tallowood also looks good to me but for its relatively low resistance to Teredo and other marine organisms. I will be spending the vast majority of time between the tropics so this is of very high importance to me.

[boylesboats]

Just don't spill any of it in your lap (inside of your legs)

[PeterSibley]

I agree with you regarding the marine durability , however stability can be a problem .It would be annoying to have a major structural member warp as it dried .I'd get lots of advice on this ...I hope my advice is wrong .

Have you considered coppering her ?

[DaveWhitla]

Have you considered coppering her ?
Not an option. I hate the entire concept - I think I'd consider glassing it first and that isn't going to happen.

[PeterSibley]

Not an option. I hate the entire concept - I think I'd consider glassing it first and that isn't going to happen.

I respect your opinion ,it does however have respectable antecedents ...the entire Royal Navy .I've given it serious consideration myself ...the price of copper is a bit alarming though .

I understand your concern about worms .I run little experiments myself .Wired sections of 6x3 hardwood to the galv pipe legs of a jetty in the Brisbane River( brackish ,tidal ...opposite the St Lucia Campus ) and been able to break them up with my fingers 6 weeks later .:(.Intimidating little things .

[Wild Wassa]

John Turpin, how close did you family's name come to being Larch, Larche or Larcoque?

Warren.

[ewan]

a small digression - is it possible to get green spotted gum anywhere near sydney? or at all?

[DaveWhitla]

a small digression - is it possible to get green spotted gum anywhere near sydney? or at all?

I've had positive replies from every sawmill I've contacted in Northern NSW and Southern QLD. IIRC you will get better quality (ie stronger and more durable) spotted gum the further north you go. I think Grant Timbers at Gympie have plenty of it on their own property if you are specifically after green timber.

[PeterSibley]

Ewan .
You might ring the State Forestry Dept in Grafton , they will definitely give you a supplier.Transport would be simple too .

[DaveWhitla]

Sort of related question.

I am able to obtain Celery and Huon for planking. But, despite everything good that has been said about both species I'm reluctant to just buy it. Everything I read, in Bootle and elsewhere suggests that they have rather poor durability in a tropical marine context.

Plenty of material raves specifically about their durability due to the high concentrations of oleo-resins but when I think about it, every boat I know of that was planked in Huon, Celery or both is kept south of Sydney.

Do you think I might be mistaken?

[Wild Wassa]

Ewan, John Hodgeson, Deervale via Dorrego, is in the phone book. John will ship by rail.

Best Spotted Gum is all South of Bateman Bay. Any of the saw mills around Narooma, Mystery Bay down to Bermagui will have green stuff, all shipping by road.

Most of the fine timber merchants stock Spotted Gum, but expect under <14% moisture content.

When Peter wrote, ring the Forestry Dept, if you ring any of the Forestry HQs in the different regions of NSW, they know who is harvesting what species and who has salvaged the particular species in their regions.

I prefer to use salvage timber merchants ... they tend to be overloaded with quality timbers.

For Spotted Gum the best salvage timber merchant in my area is Paul from Simply Slabs in Bodalla PH 0910293377 and (02) 44735597. He has awesome timbers, absolutely awesome. Paul is on par with Sean from Monaro Timbers. They are fine timber merchants stocking many species (80 cabinet species), they are here in Canberra Ph. (02) 62806467. If you do contact Paul or Sean please don't hesitate to say you were given their addresses by me. Warren the boat painter.

Kitchen benches in salvaged Sydney Blue Gum with Spotted Gum floor boards. Simply Slabs fitted out the kitchen benches and did the flooring.


http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd301/WildWassa/SydneyBlueGumandSpottedgumfloorboar.jpg


Warren.

[PeterSibley]

Sort of related question.

I am able to obtain Celery and Huon for planking. But, despite everything good that has been said about both species I'm reluctant to just buy it. Everything I read, in Bootle and elsewhere suggests that they have rather poor durability in a tropical marine context.

Plenty of material raves specifically about their durability due to the high concentrations of oleo-resins but when I think about it, every boat I know of that was planked in Huon, Celery or both is kept south of Sydney.

Do you think I might be mistaken?

It's an interesting question and one I hadn't considered .Have you read posts by Bernadette on the forum ? If so ,her father is a boatbuilder up near Tully or perhaps further north .He has been in the trade a long time and would be a good bloke to ask about durability in tropic waters .

I have the advantage of being sufficiently broke that huon was never a consideration .In my case the joy was finding a mill that would cut 30' and cut all the planking plus a small pile of silver ash for $2500. I'm happy !:)

[ewan]

thanks all

[DaveWhitla]

Have you read posts by Bernadette on the forum ? If so ,her father is a boatbuilder up near Tully or perhaps further north .He has been in the trade a long time and would be a good bloke to ask about durability in tropic waters .

Woohoo! Another great lead. Thanks Peter. Now its clear I'm a newbie here. I didn't even know Decatur was at my own yacht club.

Shame I wasn't around when she moved from Port Douglas.
I'll be talking with Bernadette and her father as soon as I can.

[PeterSibley]

Glad to help ! :)

[John Turpin]

John Turpin, how close did you family's name come to being Larch, Larche or Larcoque?

Warren.

No one knows. My beloved and esteemed forefathers left Britain very quickly in the 1800s and most likely with law enforcement in hot pursuit. Once in America, there was little talk of "what really happened back there".

I'm sure it was all just a big misunderstanding.

[S.V. Airlie]

Several hundred years ago, my family produced it. Thus, our family name.

I realize that this is no help to the discussion. Sorry.

John.. interesting. My ggrandfather had the monopoly on the tar/terpentine business in the south around 1900.

[DaveWhitla]

Dave

I'd be very inclined to agree with Peter Sibley - spotted gum would be my pick for most applications. Grey Box or Tallow for backbone timbers (keel, stem, floors etc). You can sometimes get these two from timber recyclers, but when they're old they are as hard as iron.

Yep - already talking with suppliers about these two.


I'd have to say that I wouldn't be all that keen about using any eucalypt species for planking, especially above the water line. They have very large shrink-swell coefficients compared with most timbers, and the constant wetting and drying would see them moving around a lot. Hard to keep seams tight, and lots of unwanted (and very powerful) forces being exerted on the shape of the hull.

This is exactly my issue with turpentine and the other very resistant eucalypts - they all seem to exhibit this problem for the same reason they are so durable.


I appreciate your concern about durability and the problems caused by teredo in tropical waters. However, even turpentine would succumb in the end. The only real insurance that I know of against teredo is regular antifouling (old timers in NQ reckon it should be done twice a year). There are plenty of boats planked with oregon that have lasted a long time in those waters - GRAFTON, a TI lugger planked with oregon, was built in 1907 and is still afloat in Cairns. That's where the focus should be - antifouling.

Yep - this is the plan even if planked with teak. The durability issue is kind of like an insurance policy for:
- potential groundings without opportunity for a haulout any time soon (I actually expect a bit of this given the sailing grounds);
- floating object or wildlife collision damage (not very likely but ...);
- riding too low on her lines (which could be catered for by either not overloading or antifouling to the boot top); and
- inadequate antifouling coverage/soak in hard to reach places like between rudder and sternpost (which can be avoided with more care when antifouling).
Basically it'd be nice not to have to be so anal-retentive in maintenance and know that you've got a bit of margin.

I do agree though that antifouling and creosote are the best defence.


On that note, much as I don't like to I have to disagree to some extent at this point with Peter about coppering (sorry mate!). Copper sheeting on its own won't protect against teredo, because it is the planktonic embryo (technically, the veliger) of the teredo that initially infects the timber. These are tiny (micoscopic) free-swimming organisms that can easily wriggle in through the gaps in even the tightest coppering. Once in behind, they can chew away and grow to their hearts content and you'll never see them.

This is precisely my principal reason for not entertaining the thought of coppering. Whilst it is reasonably effective where the idea was developed, experience has shown it to be more of a hindrance to surveys than to the teredo worm. It is my opinion that if you plan to sheath you'd be far better off sheathing in epoxy and glass. But I hate the stuff and one reason for me building a wooden boat rather than a glass one is the ability to survey damage and effect repairs in very low-tech environs. I think sheathing a carvel boat defeats some of the advantages of the construction method.

Thanks for your thoughts. I'm actually looking further into Tassie pines for planking at the moment despite my earlier comments due to some comments made above. I'm also considering some species above for keel timbers - I'm waiting for the chance to speak to Keith Allen and hear his views. Whatever I'm told I'll be sure to report here. Others please feel free to do likewise.

[PeterSibley]

good posts Tony and Dave .

I should have said coppered over felt ,but ...

Tony ...have you ever heard of this product ,Bituthene 3000 used as a substitute for tarred felt ?
http://www.chemind.com.au/construction/basement_retaining_walls.htm .
It's a bitumen membrane that is adhesive .An old boatbuilder ,since retired ,in Tasmania used to use it over ply under teak overlays .He spoke very highly of it .....no rot in the subdecks .I thought it might do the same job as the felt .....would it's waterproofness be a problem ?

As you can see I'm still interested in coppering ,even if only in high abrasion prone areas .

[tattooed john]

Best Spotted Gum is all South of Bateman Bay. Any of the saw mills around Narooma, Mystery Bay down to Bermagui will have green stuff, all shipping by road. Warren.

Sorry to disagree Warren. Not my experience at all.

I have used both South Coast spotted gum and North Coast- the North coast S.G. was seasoned but still vastly superior for steaming ribs.

Both are would be adequate if selected with enough care.

[Wild Wassa]

"Sorry to disagree Warren. Not my experience at all. I have used both South Coast spotted gum and North Coast- the North coast S.G. was seasoned but still vastly superior for steaming ribs.

Both are would be adequate if selected with enough care."

Tatooed John, G'day Mate, don't ever be sorry to disagree with me.

When would you ever select timber without care? Skipper, I though that that was a given.

My first recommendation was to use John Hodgeson at Deervale via Dorrego. I though some here would have known about John and his timber vault. If you want to build a boat, John will cut up a tree for you. John is a forest salvager. He is not a bridge or building timber recycler.

Some of the old trees that were pushed over by the sawyers to get better access to the mega trees ... are so green and wet inside still, they will be good for years to come. The Red Cedars and Rosewoods especially. John builds covers over his trees to keep them from drying out. Going to visit John is not like going to an average saw mill or a timber yard. John holds an auction in September/October. The good deals then can be extraordinary.

I agree with Tony H, I would not use timber recyclers either, for green timbers which was Ewen's request, not that I'm a boat builder and would ever need green timber ever. I only buy fine furniture grade timbers for restorations. A forest timber salvager is a different beast all together to a timber recycler and should not be dismissed. Up on the North Coast the Forestry Dept only granted salvage timber licences to the veneer cutters. These guys aren't 'used parts' timber resellers. They are also the best fine furniture timber suppliers in the country ... when you are looking for something special.

Tony H, g'day. I wish Timbertech Trading were still the suppliers of Smith and Co's products. Trying to get the stuff now has become a farce, no one is carrying stock. A small Fill-it and the smallest CPES can be now $240 delivered. I used both on rebuilding an outboard well on a Sonata last week and needed some urgently. Senseal have left the market and refer people on to others for Smith and Co's products, the stuff I got was from South Australia and took nearly two weeks to arrive, from when the order first went in. So much for my urgent request.

Warren.

[The Bigfella]

I've cut and milled my own Spotted Gum from the South Coast - and have had no problems - have steamed it for ribs and have used it for floor replacements.

I'd consider using Queensland Kauri for planking. I've pm'd a wholesale supplier contact to Dave.

[PeterSibley]

How did you mill it Ian ?