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cs
01-14-2008, 07:34 AM
Okay need some help so I can tell me story. Before I can tell my story I need to get some videos on DVD ripped edited and converted to something I can upload to You Tubes.

So give me some advice on this as well as some links to some free software to do this with. I'm using Windows Vista.

Chad

Joe (SoCal)
01-14-2008, 07:37 AM
I could tell ya but you would have to buy a Mac ;)

I'm sure there is a much harder way to do it on a PC and Norman will be along shortly to tell you ;)

George Roberts
01-14-2008, 09:13 AM
Joe is correct. It is hard to do such things on a PC.

Hard because there are so many possible ways to do the work.

MagicDVD ripper works well for getting content off of a CD and converting to MPG, or AVI (even to Apple format).

After that there are too many editors to comment on. Most will let you cut and paste segments.

cs
01-14-2008, 09:32 AM
Thanks guy, and yes this is non copywrited material.

I had to run out of the office for a moment and had one of the guys here who has some software already loaded (wasn't sure if he did when I asked) and he took care of me. I still need to get something on my laptop to do this with and will look at window movie maker.

BTW I was wondering if I bought I MAC would I turn into a prick? :D;)

Chad

pcford
01-14-2008, 09:47 AM
BTW I was wondering if I bought I MAC would I turn into a prick? :D;)

Chad

Seems to happen most of the time.

Joe (SoCal)
01-14-2008, 09:54 AM
BTW I was wondering if I bought I MAC would I turn into a prick? :D;)

Chad

Don't like the call don't play the game :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbe9x5WotT4

Joe (SoCal)
01-14-2008, 10:07 AM
Why is that any 'harder'?

Like everything on a Mac the GUI is more intuitive and thus easier. Yea sure you can DO IT on a PC and if you like all the bloated added crap and toggles free-ware. Im sure its far more ugly and you have to click more crap than iMove ( Free ) or Final Cut Pro (Not Free).

I'm sorry with the exception of iPhoto ( which I'm not that fond of ) almost all programs on a PC seem way more clumsy and added every extra little piece of bloat and customizing crap you can think of. Damn Window's movie maker is just damn fooking UGLY as a beached bayliner compared to the beautiful GUI of Final Cut or even iMovie.

http://www.winsupersite.com/images/reviews/wmm2_02.gif

VS

Final Cut Pro

http://createdigitalmotion.com/images/2006/July2006/finalcutexpress.jpg

Even iMove which comes FREE on any mac is far more elegant.

http://www.ecumug.org/reviews/imovie3/imovie_screen.jpg

Rich VanValkenburg
01-14-2008, 10:07 AM
I've got a MAC. It's in my basement. It has OSX and whatever... There are things about it that I liked except the part about seizing up every three or four minutes. Even MAC professionals couldn't seem to understand why. This isn't an anti-MAC commercial, but you can wipe that smile off yer face Joe, unless you know how to fix it. :D

Rich

Joe (SoCal)
01-14-2008, 10:11 AM
Rich ya got a lemon or whatever. I have had about 10 macs and they are ran FLAWLESSLY your anecdotal experience is far from the common Mac user.

Joe (SoCal)
01-14-2008, 10:16 AM
Also Chad if you want to put the videos on YouTube you will need another COMPRESSION program to turn them into MP4 or whatever that Windowz Movie Maker wont do. ;)

George Roberts
01-14-2008, 10:24 AM
"Total horsesh!t.... it's trivially easy. The only real difference is that there's a wider selection of"

Perhaps had you read my next sentence: " Hard because there are so many possible ways to do the work."

---

I happen to be in the middle of a DVD project. It appears so simple to rip copy protected DVDs to a hard drive, remove the warnings and the extras, and put them in a format that is appropriate for use.

Works about 95% of the time.

And then the issues that make the software trash come up.

A DVD that loses the audio when ripped. Another DVD that loses the video when ripped. Not just on PCs but on Macs also. Not just when using 1 ripping program, but with all 6 I have.

So I wonder about using .IFO editors and stream repair software.

Gonzalo
01-14-2008, 10:29 AM
I have had about 10 macs and they are ran FLAWLESSLY Looks like the grammar checker is busted.

Joe (SoCal)
01-14-2008, 10:31 AM
More total horsesh!t. YouTube will take a .wmv file, and arbitrary compression is built right into Windows Moviemaker.

As for your 'screenshots': the ONLY difference between Windows MovieMaker and the Mac program is that, at least to your eye, the Apple product looks snazzier. Functionally, they'll both do it. If you want to judge a program based on eye candy, go for it.... if it's functionality that matters, at least be truthful: they will BOTH do it.

Horsesh!t ( I like that word :D )

You will take a .WMV / MP3 / Yadda yadda yadda OF A SPECIFIC SIZE Since most .WMV or MP3 RAW files are too LARGE you will need a compression prog to make the FILE SIZE not the TYPE appropriate for uploading to YouTube. So Spin again Norman ;)

Additionally Looking snazzier and thus being a joy and EASYER to use makes it MUCH more functional, Folla ;)

Joe (SoCal)
01-14-2008, 10:33 AM
Looks like the grammar checker is busted.

Pfffft :p I could spell check in EVERY Mac application including my web browser by simply hitting the Shift/apple/":" key ........ but ....... obviously I don't do that either ;)

Joe (SoCal)
01-14-2008, 10:35 AM
I DID read your next sentence, but it makes no sense: having more choices makes things easier, not harder.

I COULD NOT HAVE SAID IT BETTER !!!!!!!! :D :D :D

On the same token snazzy and less cluttered make it easier, ooooooh imagin that Norman and I agree :D

Joe (SoCal)
01-14-2008, 10:41 AM
Ohhh man I HAVE used that Horsesh!t MovieMaker. I have buddies that love my YouTube videos and wanted me to help them on their piece of crap PC's

Oh and for your OTHER question YUP ;)


Under “Video” you can choose your codec, size, and framerate. The technical aspects of all of these can be confusing. I will attempt a brief description here, but if you are not interested in these technical details, I will recommend two different settings below for exporting your movie files.

The different ways to compress video (similar to the ways to compress images, i.e., JPEG, GIF, LZW, etc.) are called codecs. Different codecs have strengths and weakenesses. Some do better at certain types of images (solid colors vs. photographic video), some are engineered for very small file sizes, and others are geared towards external devices (such as cell phones). MPEG-2 which is an add-on from Apple, is the type of compression used for DVDs. It’s very high quality, and isn’t designed for many of the uses we’ve discussed. MPEG-4, however, is designed for high compression with good quality. With Mac OS X Tiger, Apple also introduced Quicktime 7, which introduces a new type of MPEG compression called H.264. This is playable by users on Macs using Tiger or Panther, as long as they have Quicktime 7. This is the highest quality codec you’re likely to find that can produce small file sizes—but when using it, you may be shutting out other viewers who haven’t upgraded to the latest version of Quicktime.


Older codecs like H.263, Apple Motion JPEG, etc., can be played by a large number of machines, but aren’t terribly good with compression like the newer codecs MPEG-4 and H.264. Another option is Sorensen 3, which is a standard for motion videon on the desktop.

The size of the video is a measure of the width and height of the movie in pixels. Standard TV resolution is 640x480. DV footage is 720x480. The numbers are always in a relationship of 4:3. 400x300 is a good intermediate size that can be “blown-up” or enlarged, but still delivered online. 240x180 is a smaller size that is popular on the web.

http://www.glnd.k12.va.us/resources/imovie5/expert_settings.png

SPIN AGAIN :D

Joe (SoCal)
01-14-2008, 10:46 AM
Congratulations! You've simply proved that both the Mac program, and MovieMaker, have the SAME capability! We've done it folks... demonstrated EQUIVALENCE!!!!

Nope you said it best


I DID read your next sentence, but it makes no sense: having more choices makes things easier, not harder.

I COULD NOT HAVE SAID IT BETTER !!!!!!!! :D :D :D

On the same token snazzy and less cluttered make it easier, ooooooh imagin that Norman and I agree :D

john l
01-14-2008, 11:03 AM
i guess if there are mac nazis there may be pc nazis too! and norm may just well be the leader.
regarding the mac frezzing up - it most likely is a software/operating system/hardware conflict or chipfailure. unusual for a mac. did you buy the computer from an apple store or from a computer retailer? pc guys selling macs were a problem hence the need for apple to develop it's own outlets. btw if it is a hardware problem this should be no problem for a pc user as they are clearly used to such events. i just had one on my pc last week. looked like a virus, but turned out to be chip failure.
fan failure few months ago. there is a large industry just in fixing pcs. that's why many people like them. they're good for the economy..just like war!
macs don't die...they just fade away when operating systems and internet access excludes their utility. i have anumebr of fully operating
ancient macs. the old pcs died are in waste stream.

hey i'm vocal about macs only because of all the slander and bias against them. guess everyone has stock in ms! so much for the liberal and balanced banter!! money trumps reason again!

cs
01-14-2008, 11:04 AM
To be honest it doesn't matter, because I really don't care what the MAC can and can't do because I have a windows machine and I'm not going to go out and buy a Mac.

Chad

Joe (SoCal)
01-14-2008, 11:04 AM
Well, there's ONE thing we can agree on, Joe..... it's more fun trading barbs with you, than just about anything else going on here in the bilge! ;);););)

True ;)
Who loves ya baby :D

Joe (SoCal)
01-14-2008, 11:06 AM
To be honest it doesn't matter, because I really don't care what the MAC can and can't do because I have a windows machine and I'm not going to go out and buy a Mac.

Chad

Like Honda_Shadow I also believe in conversion and redemption :D

John of Phoenix
01-14-2008, 11:07 AM
i guess if there are mac nazis there may be pc nazis too! and norm may just well be the leader.
regarding the mac frezzing up - it most likely is a software/operating system/hardware conflict or chipfailure. unusual for a mac. did you buy the computer from an apple store or from a computer retailer? pc guys selling macs were a problem hence the need for apple to develop it's own outlets. btw if it is a hardware problem this should be no problem for a pc user as they are clearly used to such events. i just had one on my pc last week. looked like a virus, but turned out to be chip failure.
fan failure few months ago. there is a large industry just in fixing pcs. that's why many people like them. they're good for the economy..just like war!
macs don't die...they just fade away when operating systems and internet access excludes their utility. i have anumebr of fully operating
ancient macs. the old pcs died are in waste stream.

hey i'm vocal about macs only because of all the slander and bias against them. guess everyone has stock in ms! so much for the liberal and balanced banter!! money trumps reason again!
Macs don't have a "Shift" key? ;)

Michael s/v Sannyasin
01-14-2008, 11:17 AM
I use Adobe Premiere to edit video, and I always export the movie to DV AVI format (uncompressed, will look as good as the original tape). When I want to post something on YouTube, I use QuickTime Pro... I think it cost about $30. It allows you to open just about any popular format and export to any other popular format, and specify export quality options.

You don't really need to install any new software, if you already have a recent copy of the QuickTime player on your machine. If you pay for the Pro, they just send you a code to unlock the Pro features in the QuickTime player.

I found that I got the best combination of small file size and good video quality with the MP4 compression.

Rich VanValkenburg
01-14-2008, 12:07 PM
The MAC was my daughter's. We bought it at 'worst buy' when she was looking to work in graphics and needed one for the school assignments. It was an expensive box. We applied Panther, and whatever else we were told to do by the MAC folks, but in the end she got frustrated, gave up on it and went into nursing. I'd like to make use of it again but can't afford the diagnosis and repair right now. My wife tried using it to create the layouts for her quilts but it just keeps seizing. I guess it hasn't seen the commercials yet.

Rich

Michael s/v Sannyasin
01-14-2008, 12:19 PM
I taught a C++ programming course for Motorola in Schaumburg IL a few times. They made the chip for the Power Mac I think. The class was given on the Mac and it would seize up every hour or two requiring a hard-boot. I think the class was a little embarrassed at their Apple affiliation.

Of course, in their TV spots, Apple claims the opposite and suggest PC's have that problem. Kinda sounds like politics!

Joe (SoCal)
01-14-2008, 12:25 PM
:p:p

Maybe you can get that 'cool Mac guy' from the commercial to come out, stand over your shoulder, and tell you all about how easy and simple it is, as you try to resolve the problems. :D The problems won't get any easier, but you'll feel MUCH more 'hip' about it!

(The same thing could, and indeed might, happen to a PC user, proving nothing except that BOTH types of computers are occasionally subject to problems that are difficult for non-experts to resolve).

Anicdotial BS

Rick I'm sorry you have not had as pleasent an experience as many of us have had for years and years and years. That said I have a cousin who touches a toaster and it stops working for her, guess it's Mac's fault. ;) :p

pcford
01-14-2008, 12:29 PM
:p:p

Maybe you can get that 'cool Mac guy' from the commercial to come out, stand over your shoulder, and tell you all about how easy and simple it is, as you try to resolve the problems. :D The problems won't get any easier, but you'll feel MUCH more 'hip' about it!


BWAHAHAHA!

cs
01-14-2008, 12:31 PM
What I think is BS is I ask a question about specific software and in the end start a MAC/PC war.

Chad

Of course it doesn't matter, I've only gotten a few looks at my videos anyway.

Joe (SoCal)
01-14-2008, 12:32 PM
It's
Bwaaaaaaaaaa ha ha ™ :D

Kinda looks like an iToster don't it ? ;)

http://cache.gizmodo.com/assets/resources/2008/01/SwarovskiToaster.jpg


Latest in the line of humble gadgets to get the shiny Swarovski treatment is this toaster: a limited-edition Russell Hobbs number, with over 200 of those tiny crystals decorating its skin. While it won't do anything clever like turbo-toast your morning snack, or burn a message into it, if you like gazing at a little bit of luxury as you huddle over your breakfast coffee then this is your $300 baby. Apart from all the glitter, this is just a normal 18" wide single-slot toaster in glass and stainless steel with variable browning, a crumb tray, extra-lift handle and so on. But it is a limited edition: only 500 available.

Canoez
01-14-2008, 12:33 PM
Toaster :

http://i9.tinypic.com/6tmlefs.jpg

Joe (SoCal)
01-14-2008, 12:40 PM
Now now Norman we all know the price difference for the same quality PC and Mac is close enough. The old myth that Macs are twice expensive is so 1995 ;)

But I'm not above making fun of how a beautiful designed object that does nothing fundamentally different will cost more.

I think if price was no object most people would choose the beautiful designed product over the dreck. I know I would like an Audi a-8 or a BMW over a Ford Taurus even if they both do exactly the same thing ;)

Rich VanValkenburg
01-14-2008, 12:45 PM
cheezus Joe, I've had to deal with all kinds of arrogance over the years and I've learned to turn my back. I wish you were as quick to offer assistance as you are to offer negative comments. You're not on my bad list and I don't intend to put you there, but wake up and get real once in a while.

Now, I realize this isn't a MAC forum, but I gain more help from everyday users/abusers than I can with a tech-head forum. Been there for 35 years. If you have contructive help to offer, as you sometimes do, I welcome it. My posts on our frustration with a $3500.00 investment that I can't use anymore are real and not intended as a complete insult to MAC users.

Next year when Sonja gets to sail for the first time in 18 years, I'd like to post videos, and MAC seemed to be the best tool to use to accomplish that. But it just won't stay awake. Lemon or no lemon, it freaks out and so it sits in the basement.

Rich

Keith Wilson
01-14-2008, 12:46 PM
The Mac vs. PC threads strongly resemble the arguments about religion, except they are mercifully shorter.

pcford
01-14-2008, 12:50 PM
The Mac vs. PC threads strongly resemble the arguments about religion, except they are mercifully shorter.

It IS a religious argument.

Joe (SoCal)
01-14-2008, 12:50 PM
cheezus Joe, I've had to deal with all kinds of arrogance over the years and I've learned to turn my back. I wish you were as quick to offer assistance as you are to offer negative comments. You're not on my bad list and I don't intend to put you there, but wake up and get real once in a while.

Now, I realize this isn't a MAC forum, but I gain more help from everyday users/abusers than I can with a tech-head forum. Been there for 35 years. If you have constructive help to offer, as you sometimes do, I welcome it. My posts on our frustration with a $3500.00 investment that I can't use anymore are real and not intended as a complete insult to MAC users.

Next year when Sonja gets to sail for the first time in 18 years, I'd like to post videos, and MAC seemed to be the best tool to use to accomplish that. But it just won't stay awake. Lemon or no lemon, it freaks out and so it sits in the basement.

Rich

Hey Rich, I'm sorry I was just playing my roll with Norman and Chad and you became collateral damage, again I'm sorry.

I wish I could help you and maybe start a separate thread and all us mac heads can put our collective heads together and sort your trouble out.

The real problem is trouble shooting of your kind is extremely difficult without being at the problematic computer. At least for me thats usually the case. But I'm sure we can figure it out. But remember with ANY product there are Lemons and gremlins that sneak in.

George Roberts
01-14-2008, 12:53 PM
norm ---

"having more choices makes things easier, not harder."

That opinion prevails until you realize that most combinations of the choices do not achieve the desired result. And your job is to find a combination that does.

---

I had a contract this spring to package up some software that did video conversion. 3 months of 12 hour days and I failed to find a suitable set of software/hardware/option choices. I even offered $30K to people who claimed their software/hardware/options worked.

Lots of choices. None worked. (20 people failed to collect the $30K offered.)

Sure. Choices are always good. (insert sarcasm icon here)

cs
01-14-2008, 12:53 PM
Joe why do you have to play a role? That is what I don't understand, I ask questions and you give negative comments. I didn't say mac or pc was worse or better, just wanted to know what to use and thanks to others I've gotten a clearer idea.

Chad

Kaa
01-14-2008, 12:56 PM
Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.


The year 2008 marks the 10th Anniversary of the iMac, the computer that changed everything at Apple, hailing a new design era spearheaded by design genius Jonathan Ive. What most people don't know is that there's another man whose products are at the heart of Ive's design philosophy, an influence that permeates every single product at Apple, from hardware to user-interface design. That man is Dieter Rams, and his old designs for Braun during the '50s and '60s hold all the clues not only for past and present Apple products, but their future as well (emphasis mine)

http://gizmodo.com/343641/1960s-braun-products-hold-the-secrets-to-apples-future

Kaa

Memphis Mike
01-14-2008, 12:59 PM
"BTW I was wondering if I bought I MAC would I turn into a prick? :D;)

No but you might turn into a Liberal and have a tendency to vote Democratic. All of the Mac users I know are nice Liberal Democrats.

Joe (SoCal)
01-14-2008, 01:01 PM
Not me.

Just last night, my nephew and grand-nephew were over at the house. He's driving a brand new BMW X5 SUV.... extremely high cool factor; no key required (it senses the key, no need to insert it), a pushbutton to start or stop the engine, gorgeous full color LCD display for the integrated GPS system, etc....

Nw, my wife drives a new Accura MDX.... same size vehicle, same layout, similar engine, etc.... the Accura cost us around $30K or so. We asked the nephew what he paid for the Beemer.....

....$60,000!

Sorry, but $30K for 'cool factor' isn't in MY budget! ;)

OK but how about this example

http://images.automotive.com/stock/300/FORD/TAURUS/2008/4SA-4.jpg

2008 Ford Taurus Limited

MSRP $29,810

http://blogs.edmunds.com/.ee94f2d/cmd.233/enclosure..ee94f2e

2008 BMW 3 Series

MSRP: ¤32,400

Joe (SoCal)
01-14-2008, 01:06 PM
Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.

(emphasis mine)

http://gizmodo.com/343641/1960s-braun-products-hold-the-secrets-to-apples-future

Kaa

I knew this
I also know Frog Design

I even know Richard Sapper was the first designer of the Vader like IBM Thinkpad as well as the cool Industrial Design Icon the Tizio Lamp. But then again these kind of things are important to me ;)

Oh and Chad ... Why do I ..... Cause it's fun dude why else would anyone .

bob winter
01-14-2008, 01:09 PM
The guy asked a question about how to do whatever on the computer he has, not if a Mac was better than a PC or not. He wasn't looking for a nonsense debate over Mac and PC. However, when it comes to Rich's problem with his Mac, I would suggest that he tries going back to square one by formatting the hard drive and then installing the operating system and seeing how it works. If it seems OK, then install another program and test it out. I am a far cry from a computer whiz, I use the computer as a tool to get my work done, not as a toy, but this approach has worked for me several times over the years. What sort of Mac is it, by the way?

Bruce Hooke
01-14-2008, 01:11 PM
Can I suggest that in the future, when the Mac fanatics pipe up with their usual proselytizing on a thread where someone is honestly trying to get help with a problem on a PC, the best approach is to totally ignore the Mac fanatics. It is clear that they come to those threads with no honest intent to be helpful to the person who started the thread and simply enjoy the controversy their comments stir up. This strikes me as both appallingly obnoxious and basically the equivalent of being a troll, and history has shown that the best way to deal with trolls is to ignore them. The fact that so many threads about PC's descend into a debate about Macs versus PC's makes it much harder to get answers to the real questions because people who might be able to help won't feel like digging through all the crap.

Joe (SoCal)
01-14-2008, 01:14 PM
Can I suggest that in the future, when the Mac fanatics pipe up with their usual proselytizing on a thread where someone is honestly trying to get help with a problem on a PC, the best approach is to totally ignore the Mac fanatics. It is clear that they come to those threads with no honest intent to be helpful to the person who started the thread and simply enjoy the controversy their comments stir up. This strikes me as both appallingly obnoxious and basically the equivalent of being a troll, and history has shown that the best way to deal with trolls is to ignore them.

Bruce thats way too practical ;)

When it comes to consumer video editing it would be laps to fail to mention the obvious choice, which I felt compelled to ;)

I usually stay out of threads dealing with spyware, ad-ware, firewalls, spam, and viruses ;) I let the PC boys handle those things I know NOTHING about :D

Kaa
01-14-2008, 01:17 PM
But then again these kind of things are important to me ;)

Well, at least you're honest about being attracted to shiny things :-)

Kaa

john l
01-14-2008, 01:19 PM
cheezus Joe, I've had to deal with all kinds of arrogance over the years and I've learned to turn my back. I wish you were as quick to offer assistance as you are to offer negative comments. You're not on my bad list and I don't intend to put you there, but wake up and get real once in a while.

Now, I realize this isn't a MAC forum, but I gain more help from everyday users/abusers than I can with a tech-head forum. Been there for 35 years. If you have contructive help to offer, as you sometimes do, I welcome it. My posts on our frustration with a $3500.00 investment that I can't use anymore are real and not intended as a complete insult to MAC users.

Next year when Sonja gets to sail for the first time in 18 years, I'd like to post videos, and MAC seemed to be the best tool to use to accomplish that. But it just won't stay awake. Lemon or no lemon, it freaks out and so it sits in the basement.

Rich

ok rich - which model mac is it? how much ram does it have? what programs are you using when it freezes? how many programs do you have open when it freezes.

Bruce Hooke
01-14-2008, 01:20 PM
Bruce thats way too practical ;)

When it comes to consumer video editing it would be laps to fail to mention the obvious choice, which I felt compelled to ;)

I usually stay out of threads dealing with spyware, ad-ware, firewalls, spam, and viruses ;) I let the PC boys handle those things I know NOTHING about :D

Oh come off it. Telling someone they should spend hundreds or thousands of dollars to buy a new computer system to solve a relatively small problem is not honestly trying to help them. It is just an attempt to start a debate but in the process it makes it harder for the person who actually asked for help to get help.

Joe (SoCal)
01-14-2008, 01:21 PM
Well, at least you're honest about being attracted to shiny things :-)

Kaa

I've started many threads about the validity of well designed objects, and the beauty and functionality debate. it usually becomes a lively thread. Seems a lot of people are either attracted or repulsed to shiny things. I find it interesting piece of human nature.

Might be time for another one of those threads.

Joe (SoCal)
01-14-2008, 01:24 PM
Oh come off it. Telling someone they should spend hundreds or thousands of dollars to buy a new computer system to solve a relatively small problem is not honestly trying to help them. It is just an attempt to start a debate but in the process it makes it harder for the person who actually asked for help to get help.

True but my look at my first post in this thread it was mostly tongue in cheek and Norman took my bait hook line and sinker :p and we were both off on our respective roles. :D

Sometimes thread drift is fun, and in this case I think Chad got the useful info he was looking for in the first page of this thread.

Kaa
01-14-2008, 01:24 PM
I've started many threads about the validity of well designed objects, and the beauty and functionality debate. it usually becomes a lively thread. Seems a lot of people are either attracted or repulsed to shiny things. I find it interesting piece of human nature.

Might be time for another one of those threads.

Um. You might want to keep in mind that "well-designed" and "shiny" are not synonyms. :D

Kaa

john l
01-14-2008, 01:25 PM
Can I suggest that in the future, when the Mac fanatics pipe up with their usual proselytizing on a thread where someone is honestly trying to get help with a problem on a PC, the best approach is to totally ignore the Mac fanatics. It is clear that they come to those threads with no honest intent to be helpful to the person who started the thread and simply enjoy the controversy their comments stir up. This strikes me as both appallingly obnoxious and basically the equivalent of being a troll, and history has shown that the best way to deal with trolls is to ignore them. The fact that so many threads about PC's descend into a debate about Macs versus PC's makes it much harder to get answers to the real questions because people who might be able to help won't feel like digging through all the crap.

well bruce if you scroll back you will find that the mac aholics had nothing to do with starting the brawl. it was non other than our very own norman, who opened fire with his attack on mac people while trying to respond to why there was a problem with ms vista.
i know, mac guys should get kicked in the balls and turn to the cheeks for more. right? well think again, mac guys think a little differently. you poke them on something they feel strongly about and you get a response and then blame them for starting the war. hey, computer certainty is almost always a sign of computer inferiority!

john l
01-14-2008, 01:27 PM
i bet you didn't know what pc stands for do you?

pure crap!! ok i'm sending this via my pc. and have to admit
that pc's are pretty darn good. they get me where i'm going,
but it simply isn't as much pleasure as my mac.

Joe (SoCal)
01-14-2008, 01:29 PM
Um. You might want to keep in mind that "well-designed" and "shiny" are not synonyms. :D

Kaa


See my Ford Taurus vs BMW 3 series example above. ;)

cs
01-14-2008, 01:35 PM
Yeah I got the basic answer. I would be willing to bet however that if this thread hadn't went the way it went I would have gotten a lot more information on what I was wanting to do.


But anyway. :rolleyes:


Chad

Joe (SoCal)
01-14-2008, 01:40 PM
Yeah I got the basic answer. I would be willing to bet however that if this thread hadn't went the way it went I would have gotten a lot more information on what I was wanting to do.


But anyway. :rolleyes:


Chad

Yea but look at all the other cool info YOUR thread produced. Had I not touched it ;) I'm almost positive it would drop as fast as the real reason you started this thread....... this thread you also started.

http://www.woodenboatvb.com/vbulletin/upload/showthread.php?t=74339

44 views and not one response, folla ;)

John of Phoenix
01-14-2008, 01:44 PM
Joe, how did Apple finally resolve the flap about charging $600 for an iPhone one week and $400 the next?

cs
01-14-2008, 01:49 PM
Yeah Joe I folla. I folla that I would rather get no responses than post some of the crap I'm seeing.

I'm sorry if I go place with my daughter and have fun with her and like to post the triumphs.

Chad

Joe (SoCal)
01-14-2008, 01:51 PM
Joe, how did Apple finally resolve the flap about charging $600 for an iPhone one week and $400 the next?


They gave me a $100 store credit.

Oh and Chad I wouldn't know anything about posting doing some fun stuff with my daughter :rolleyes:

cs
01-14-2008, 01:58 PM
But than you turn around and become such a jerk with other things. Why is it so difficult to be nice?

Chad

Joe (SoCal)
01-14-2008, 02:00 PM
But than you turn around and become such a jerk with other things. Why is it so difficult to be nice?

Chad

I am nice and funny :p , you're just touchy. I even let your "Prick" ad hom towards me roll off my back now you call me a jerk :rolleyes:. - Might be time to switch to decaf Chad. :rolleyes:

cs
01-14-2008, 02:03 PM
Joe you are neither nice or funny. You tend more to obnixous and rude. Take it for what it is worth, that is just my 2 cents.

Chad

Joe (SoCal)
01-14-2008, 02:06 PM
Joe you are neither nice or funny. You tend more to obnixous and rude. Take it for what it is worth, that is just my 2 cents.

Chad

Your opinion does not a consensus make ;). My threads are popular, I wonder why ? :p

Michael s/v Sannyasin
01-14-2008, 02:11 PM
Chad, what is your channel over on YouTube?

cs
01-14-2008, 02:14 PM
Michael here is a link to my profile. There is not much there, mostly cheerleading videos. My thread "Weekend update" has the story of the latest videos.

http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=locosmith

Chad

Joe (SoCal)
01-14-2008, 02:15 PM
Chad, what is your channel over on YouTube?

http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=locosmith

Gee I hope Chad is not upset I subscribed :rolleyes:

Joe (SoCal)
01-14-2008, 02:16 PM
Well, maybe THAT is the difference between us.

In my line of work, I often have to work with 'product designers'... the guys who do the overall concept of a product, such as the plastic design, human interface stuff, look and feel, and so on. In fact, I'm working with one of these firms right now.

I've worked with several of these firms.... and every single damned one was full of 'design snobs'... you may know the type; snooty, effete, looking down thier nose at anything not eminating from their own shop... every one of them carrying an iPhone, of course... waxing philosophical and at great length about the aesthetic qualities of the surface finish of a plastic part that nobody is going to see... and so on.

Especially 'Andre', the French product designer, wearing chic duds, long hair fashionably tied back in a pony tail... and so insufferable, I'd like to wring the little punks' NECK!

So, when it comes to the 'design' thing, I'm a lot less swayed and snowed than some others. Yeah, design can be cool, and functional, and logical, especially in products like the iPod, where the design is really what differentiates it from the competitors. But too often, design is nothing more than aesthetic masturbation... coolness for coolness' sake.. and I positively HATE that crap!

YMMV.

Please refer to my Ford vs BMW example above. ;)

cs
01-14-2008, 02:17 PM
Joe of course I'm not upset you subscribed. All I ever ask is a little civility. I'll start.

I'm sorry I started out by making a reference to being a MAC owner and a prick.

Chad

Rich VanValkenburg
01-14-2008, 02:19 PM
The Mac is a G4. My daughter has a log of what was happening but she did a 12-hour shift at the hospital last night so I'll ask her when she wakes up. In the meantime, I'll dig the Mac out and set it up somewhere and see what she has on there. I suspect there's a few things out there as video tools. I also need to see where it stands on upgrades, if there are any.

I know that if I'd started out on a Mac I'd still be Mac-oriented and probably find Windoze cumbersome and blah. But I didn't. The day one of these companies puts out a machine that has a "Life event REDO" button, I'll buy it!

Bruce Hooke
01-14-2008, 02:23 PM
well bruce if you scroll back you will find that the mac aholics had nothing to do with starting the brawl. it was non other than our very own norman, who opened fire with his attack on mac people while trying to respond to why there was a problem with ms vista.
i know, mac guys should get kicked in the balls and turn to the cheeks for more. right? well think again, mac guys think a little differently. you poke them on something they feel strongly about and you get a response and then blame them for starting the war. hey, computer certainty is almost always a sign of computer inferiority!

Take another look at the second post on this thread. In my opinion, it was posted very specifically to draw the response it got. This is the basic mode of operation of a troll.

Joe (SoCal)
01-14-2008, 02:26 PM
Joe of course I'm not upset you subscribed. All I ever ask is a little civility. I'll start.

I'm sorry I started out by making a reference to being a MAC owner and a prick.

Chad

Your asking for civility from a NYer !!!!!;):eek:
This IS me being civil :D

Honestly I don't see anything I need to apologize for I'm just being Joe (CSOH) :D

Joe (SoCal)
01-14-2008, 02:36 PM
Sheesh there is just no pleasing you Norman ;)
How bad are you going to feel then the Giants beat the Pat's :p

cs
01-14-2008, 02:37 PM
Joe I guess you just don't understand what it is like being nice. Your loss.

Chad

Joe (SoCal)
01-14-2008, 02:41 PM
Joe I guess you just don't understand what it is like being nice. Your loss.

Chad

Oh please :rolleyes:

I don't understand YOUR definition of nice but trust me more people know how nice I am that you could imagine.

Stop whining and HTFU :p

Joe (SoCal)
01-14-2008, 02:43 PM
Hey just beating Dallas was enough to make all of NY Smile :D

Joe (SoCal)
01-14-2008, 02:50 PM
This is a great thread no mater what Chad says look you even got me talking about Football :eek::eek::eek:

John of Phoenix
01-14-2008, 02:51 PM
Hey just beating Dallas was enough to make all of NY Smile :D
My two favorite teams are the Redskins and whoever's playing Dallas.

john l
01-14-2008, 03:00 PM
Well, maybe THAT is the difference between us.

In my line of work, I often have to work with 'product designers'... the guys who do the overall concept of a product, such as the plastic design, human interface stuff, look and feel, and so on. In fact, I'm working with one of these firms right now.

I've worked with several of these firms.... and every single damned one was full of 'design snobs'... you may know the type; snooty, effete, looking down thier nose at anything not eminating from their own shop... every one of them carrying an iPhone, of course... waxing philosophical and at great length about the aesthetic qualities of the surface finish of a plastic part that nobody is going to see... and so on.

Especially 'Andre', the French product designer, wearing chic duds, long hair fashionably tied back in a pony tail... and so insufferable, I'd like to wring the little punks' NECK!

So, when it comes to the 'design' thing, I'm a lot less swayed and snowed than some others. Yeah, design can be cool, and functional, and logical, especially in products like the iPod, where the design is really what differentiates it from the competitors. But too often, design is nothing more than aesthetic masturbation... coolness for coolness' sake.. and I positively HATE that crap!

YMMV.

ahh.. proof. you meet some people that you don't like the looks of and you go generalize about the world. i'm a product designer and know what you are talking about. but i also know about the stubborn ox engineer types who always say no to a designer, just because they can. but that clearly strikes the difference between the mac and pc. sure the mac is better looking machine without a doubt (i see that some people hold that against the mac), but it's function is beautiful and as elegant as its appearance (like an alerion) and an example of what can be achieved when designers and engineers work well together or are one and the same. be objective and you will do good things! or keep saying it can't be done because it hasn't been done and watch your market fade.

john l
01-14-2008, 03:10 PM
then maybe it isn't them! maybe they must act this way to offset the negative response they are getting. i've found engineers and marketing peolple or engineers and designers or marketing and engineers to always have friction in direction. the ones that don't or learn to work with each other achieve great things. a lot of design shops hire creative
open minded engineers to work internally and when they do they achieve fantastic things. take that honda accord -where does the engineering begin and the design begin. they are philosophically intertwined. is the hover dam a great piece of engineering or a great piece of design? it's both. and all great man made things share equal associations integrally. and that is why i like the mac so much more than the pc.

Joe (SoCal)
01-14-2008, 03:16 PM
then maybe it isn't them! maybe they must act this way to offset the negative response they are getting. i've found engineers and marketing peolple or engineers and designers or marketing and engineers to always have friction in direction. the ones that don't or learn to work with each other achieve great things. a lot of design shops hire creative
open minded engineers to work internally and when they do they achieve fantastic things. take that honda accord -where does the engineering begin and the design begin. they are philosophically intertwined. is the hover dam a great piece of engineering or a great piece of design? it's both. and all great man made things share equal associations integrally. and that is why i like the mac so much more than the pc.

John I have worked in design studios like you have mentioned. It was so much more pleasant and creative for both the engineers and the designers to work together than trying to keep throwing things over the fence and getting some snide remark, and vise a versa.

But I've tried this kind of discussion on this forum before. Silly I though people who had the refined taste to enjoy WoodenBoats would get the beauty in a well designed and engineered object. But alas it will go the typical lowest common denominator route.

I for one GET exactly what you are saying. I think Alden, Atkins, "Wink" Warner and Olin Stephens got it too, thank God.

Joe (SoCal)
01-14-2008, 03:38 PM
If your appreciation for design is more along the lines of art, then, yes.... it's not hard to find examples of beauty in a designed object. It does NOT invariably go hand-in-hand with enhanced functionality

I apreciate this :

http://www.woodenboatvb.com/vbulletin/upload/showthread.php?t=74059


Another lovely David Ryder-Turner design from the same builder:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2169/2179354082_5660178e53_o.jpg


http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2176/2179354078_3c859091c3_o.jpg

Joe (SoCal)
01-14-2008, 04:20 PM
I appreciate it too... but I wouldn't want to own one, because I'm not rich enough to either buy it, care for it myself, or be able to pay for the care it would deserve.

I'm not, for a minute, denying that there are things worth loving for their beauty, irrespective of their practicality or functionality... sure there are, LOTS of things like that... but not everything falls into that category.

http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m320/fosterhere/Apple.jpg

:D :D :D

Joe (SoCal)
01-14-2008, 04:30 PM
Sorry, but IMHO, computers NEVER fall into the 'worth buying for their beauty alone' category! :D

http://store.apple.com/Catalog/regional/amr/imac/img/gallery-big-01.jpg

http://a248.e.akamai.net/7/248/2041/1372/store.apple.com/Catalog/regional/amr/macbookpro/img/gallery-big-07.jpg

http://a248.e.akamai.net/7/248/2041/1372/store.apple.com/Catalog/regional/amr/nano/img/gallery-big-09.jpg

OH AND YOU DON'T WAN'T ME TO POST ALL THE APPLE PRODUCTS IN THE PERMANENT COLLECTION OF THE MOMA AGAIN ?

Memphis Mike
01-14-2008, 05:19 PM
Joe, you just don't understand. These Southerners have to have everything served up to them with a nice big dollup of Sorghum molasses on it.

They even smile when they insult you. Everything has to be "sugar coated." You remember Karen don't you?

George Roberts
01-14-2008, 05:31 PM
There is a lot of stuff in art museums that is not appropriate in a discussion of art or for use by the general public.

My computer now sits in a very nice wooden case - curly cherry. Much warmer to the eye than plastic covered components.

Michael s/v Sannyasin
01-14-2008, 06:14 PM
Good design and good engineering don't go together all that frequently. I see it in software development all too often. A screen might look great (like iTunes) and yet be very unintuitive (like iTunes).

There is a great book by a Dr. Donald Norman called The Design of Everyday Things, where he illustrates some simple real-world examples... such as doors that have a handle (for grasping and pulling) that can only be pushed to open.

When engineers overule designers, you get something like the VW Thing, or someone like that Dyson guy who creates the fugliest vaccuum on the market

http://media.dyson.com/images/products/hzn_DC14-ALLFLOORS_US.jpg

And yet, he thinks he's God's gift to the design world.

It might work, but I'd hate looking at it so much I'd never take it out of the closet.

John Meachen
01-14-2008, 07:00 PM
Since Michael brought up the Dyson upright,I might add the observation that they have outnumbered all other types of vacuum cleaner on most occasions that I have visited the dump in the last couple of years.Perhaps a useful technique for assessing purchasing decisions.

cs
01-14-2008, 08:41 PM
Joe, you just don't understand. These Southerners have to have everything served up to them with a nice big dollup of Sorghum molasses on it.

They even smile when they insult you. Everything has to be "sugar coated." You remember Karen don't you?


I reckon courtesy is a thing of the past.

:(

Chad

Joe (SoCal)
01-14-2008, 08:45 PM
I reckon courtesy is a thing of the past.

:(

Chad

Ya'all talkin about Chivalry sir. I do declare I feel smited, and require satisfaction, pistols at dawn. :p :D

George Roberts
01-15-2008, 12:06 AM
To many idle hands.