Old growth red cedar

[TomHaven12]

I have been having trouble finding good white cedar for carvel planking a new Haven 12 1/2. I do have a line on some CLEAR, old growth, straight grained, red cedar. It was used as the bottom planks in a huge wine fermenting cask. (The cask was lined so the wine was not in direct contact with the wood.) It is very old, but in great condition. The books I have read caution against red cedar because it tends to break easily when bent, and is often too knotty. My question to the wood experts is, would this be good for planking a Haven, or might it be too stiff, brittle, or otherwise not suitable?

The wood was originally from Vermont.

[ 01-26-2004, 07:47 PM: Message edited by: TomHaven12 ]

[Bruce Hooke]

One point to note, just so that we are all talking about the same stuff. If this wood is really from Vermont it is presumably Eastern Red Cedar (Juniperus virginiana), which is a totally different species from Western Red Cedar (thuja plicata)...

[TomHaven12]

Yes, I also presume it is Eastern Red Cedar. Does Eastern Red Cedar make a good planking wood? Compared to white cedar? The fact that it is clear and straight grained is in its favor. Is the fact that it is probably 50 - 100 years old against it?

[Bob Smalser]

I've only used it in furniture, and if I had to comment off the top of my head, I woulda said it's soft and brash compared to other cedars.

But...I woulda been wrong...

...looking it up in the USDA Encyclopedia, I see that it is a whole third heavier and stronger than Northern White...but with the same elasticity....and slightly harder, too.

ERC/NWC -

SG: .47/.31

Static Bending

MO Rupture: 8.8/6.5 psi
MO Elasticity: .88/.80 mil psi

Impact Bending

HgtofDropTest: 35/12 inches
ParalleltoGrainCrush: 3570/3960 psi
PerptoGrainCrush: 700/310 psi
SheerParalleltoGrain: 1010/620 psi
TensionPerptoGrain: 330/240

Side Hardness Test: 390/320 lbs.

However...it's gonna move a bit more seasonally than NWC.

Shrinkage values for radial/tangential/volumetric:

ERC: 3.1/4.7/7.8
NWC: 2.2/4.9/7.2

DougFir, where more stable q-sawn planking is a must, in comparison, is 4.8/7.6/12.4

So I wouldn't hesitate to borrow a board of it and test it in the steam box...that design has a whole lot of twist in those planks...and I wouldn't trust either the engineering numbers or suppositions as to species without a realistic test.

[ 01-26-2004, 09:55 PM: Message edited by: Bob Smalser ]

[J. Dillon]

Back in 1953 I built a snipe using 3/4" thick red cedar. It was bought from a reputable marine lumber yard. I broke several in the process of bending untill I resorted to steaming them. The snipe has relatively soft bends.

JD

[Walcheren]

I used old growth red cedar from the West coast, freshly cut,(relatively), air-dried for a Catspaw and the Poulsbo Boat. Steams wonderfully into the right curves. I had four really old planks that I used for the dinghy and they were brittle which I encountered mostly when putting screws in. It was also less pliable after steaming however.

[Bruce Hooke]

Originally posted by TomHaven12:
Yes, I also presume it is Eastern Red Cedar. Does Eastern Red Cedar make a good planking wood? Compared to white cedar? The fact that it is clear and straight grained is in its favor. Is the fact that it is probably 50 - 100 years old against it?Heck NO!!! The older the better. Unless it's been damaged in some way it should be just fine. One of the nice things about wood is that it does not really degrade much with age. I will say that I have my doubts about whether it is truly old growth if it is in fact eastern red cedar. Most of the old growth wood of any sort in the eastern US was cut well over 100 years ago. However, if it is clear, straight-grained, with narrow growth rings then it is still probably very nice wood. The only question is whether it is suitable for what you have in mind.

One word of warning. I'm pretty sure that most of what is sold as "red cedar" even on the east coast, is western red cedar. So, if someone says they used "red cedar" and it did (or did not) work well, question them closely to find out if they are sure they were using eastern red cedar, even if they got it at a lumberyard in New England.

[Ron Williamson]

You ought to be able to tell Eastern Red-Cedar by that seriously red heartwood.It's surprising to me that there would be trees large enough in Vermont,the northern edge of the range.
R