Small boat bailer

[outofthenorm]

Can someone explain how these sorts of bailers work? I understand the venturi principle, but not the mechanics of how to use one of these. This will be for a fairly fast 16 ft performance dingy. Thanks - Norm

http://pyacht.iserver.net/online-store/scstore/graphics/AND_Mini_Bailer.gif

[DGentry]

Cut hole in boat - often just aft of the centerboard trunk - and mount bailer. Pull back and push down wire bail - this pushes down and opens the drain, which then sticks out under the boat. Go fast enough and it sucks out the water in your boat. When dry or not moving fast, rotate wire bail forward and down, which pulls the drain up and closed.

These work great. However, they are dangerous when you capsize. It is very easy to take a big core sample out of your thigh if you slide into an open one while trying to stand on the centerboard. Then you've got a long sail home in 25 knots of wind, applying pressure with one hand and steering with the other, while your buddy is working both main and jib from the trapeze and your boot is slowly filling up with blood. Then you get to put up the boat and, eventually, get to spend waaay more money than you intended on some giant stitches. Of course, the worst part is that you also you fail to win the regatta this way.
But I digress.

[Tom Robb]

A gallon bleach bottle w/ the bottom cut off and a 5 gallon drywall mud bucket are cheap and can move a lot of water when used by a motivated sailor.
The idea of cutting a hole in the bottom of my boat isn't especially app:eek:ealing

[Figment]

except, whenever the boat is carring a load of water in the bilge, it's tough to get it moving fast enough for the venturi to be effective.

IMO the best small boat bailer is still a laundry detergent bottle with the bottom cut out.

[Ian McColgin]

I've only used them in pairs. I'd think one centered abaft the centerboard would be in a turbulent area that reduces efficiency. Anyway, one very rarely sails out of a capsize on a level keel.

Look at where spray puddles when sailing maybe 12 - 15 degrees on each tack and put them there, one on each side. Usually they are far enough aft that you're unlikely to hurt yourself. Never have hurt myself on Thistles and Finns but DGentry clearly speaks from pain . . .

They can be foot operated to open and close.

Elfstrom was a genius.

[Ian McColgin]

Tom and Figment: I'm not much on the fameous scared man with a bucket. Just about the least efficient way to bail and prevents you from sailing and bailing.

A thirsty mate type pump is really great and versitile. An installed diaphram might be better in a bigger boat. But elfstroms and stern flaps really do work with a reasonably hot dinghey in winds strong enough that you might capsize. Elfstroms in particular, if placed off in the bilges as I describe above, will keep evacuating spray without the crew having to do much about it.

[Seth Wood]

I put one in my Windmill -- a wet boat anyway -- and I love it. It takes hardly any speed at all for it to start gurgling and sucking and I watch the water just drain right out. Magic.

FWIW, I've got the one of the Andersen bailers from Annapolis Performance Sailing, but I think the principle is the same. I leave it open most of the time when underway. It's not as if the water gushes in when I'm stopped, but it does trickle steadily.

I've got one, just after the daggerboard well, but the Windmill's bottom is such a shallow V that I don't think I'd gain much by having a second.

Note: leave it open when the boat's on the trailer. Close before launching.

[Hwyl]

Elfstrom was a genius.

And still is, though he'll be 80 this year. Wikipedia says he invented the bailer (and the boom vang). I know Fairey were putting them (tubular design) in their boats in the 50's so I doubt he invented them, but his wedge shaped one is an improvement. For some reason they're now called Anderson bailers.

I like them too, if you're sailing fast and taking in water over the bows, then the bailer can dry the boat while you are doing more important things, like sailing the boat.

[Wild Wassa]

Elvstrom/Anderson self bailers are OK for small quantities of water or when the boat is continually taking on small quantities of water because of the conditions. They are kept open then and they work OK when you have good boat speed.

... but when you want a serious self bailor that sucks water out at a turbo charged rate, to keep the boat light, the Super Sucker made in New Zealand is awesome. They are about $130 US or the should be, they are about $149 NZ. The bailer is open at both ends. They have a small aperture at the front and a larger openning at the back, when they are open the noise is also turbo charged.

Elvstrom/Anderson self bailer will let water in at slow speeds, despite the flap where as at low speeds Super Suckers are still scary sucking muvvas.

On the Flying Fifteen that I crewed last year, the boat had a pair of Super Suckers, one on each side of the keel. Don't let your ship's cat or any of your body parts get near them when they are opened ... or you could lose them both. Don't ever sit on one if it is openned ... the result wont be nice.

Super Suckers open and closed.


http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid201/p04c6696a6a9e06ef799ae9757f41ca8d/f008d6b0.jpg



http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid201/pb78e26245c21b14c0fd6365b31d1d924/f008d69d.jpg


They are just as easy to fit as the Elvstrom/Anderson Self Bailers and they are just easy to maintain.


The small aperture at the front and the larger openning at the back.


http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid201/p5863acec11b8b37ace5911177b5dc1c8/f00f5393.jpg



http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid201/p37ccec906f9e7ca99e9137ebe7e62ab4/f00f5382.jpg


Performance dinghies need performance bits. These do perform, unlike Elvestrom/Anderson self bailers. When you are flooded and heavy that's when you need boat speed, and when the Elvstrom/Anderson self bailers stop working ... with Super Suckers the water is gone, pronto. You just keep racing ... not bailing.

Warren.

[outofthenorm]

Thanks all. My question is well answered. I intend to have a bucket and a pump, but I might put in one of these to deal with spray and slopover. That super-sucker is pretty slick. And DGentry ... as our Brit friends would say, "Bleedin' good story mate."

- Norm

[Tom Lathrop]

Warren,

Is the Super Sucker as good as you say or were you pulling our collective legs. Mainly I'd like to know at just what speed the SS becomes effective.

All the serious small boat racers I have known for forty years have had at least one of Elvstrom's bailers in them. (I think Andersen bought the License from Elvstrom) They have been put in all my small sailboats and always work well. They won't suck out a boat load of water but only because the boat can't go fast enough with all that load and the water pressure at deeper draft is a problem also. At any time the wind is high enough to cause spray to come over the side, they work just fine and the gurgling sound is reassuring. The Elvstrom works well enough in a 10' dinghy so it doesn't need a lot of speed. I always install bailers one one side and next to the daggerboard/centerboard where they are less likely to be stepped on.

If the SS is that good, it's certainly worth the money for some uses.

I wondered why the AC boats did not have some kind of automatic bailer instead of crew down to leeward bailing some serous water with buckets.

[Wild Wassa]

Tom, they are also known as Sea-Sure Bailer or Supersucker Bailer. They are made by Super Products and Dressler Industries.

They will 'pump' water out of the boat at low speeds and create less drag than a wedge shaped bailer, they are well worth the dollars.

When they were first available in Australia they were $600 a pair. Now they are almost affordable at $300 a pair.

I have a pair of large Elvstrom/Anderson bailers on my dinghy, ... I'm looking for any old excuse to change over ... I might just have to leave the bailers open and roll the dinghy down my trailer, that should do the trick.

Warren.

[John Meachen]

I've sailed with both types and would rate the super suck better at low speed but the Elvstrom/Anderson in larger sizes seems to move more water at higher speeds.Incidentally,the bailer shown in the first post seems to be the "large"which requires a recess in the outer suface of the hull if it is to be flush mounted.The Super Max has the mounting flange on the inside of the hull and may need an amount of experimenting with gasket combinations to locate the outboard face in it's optimal position.

[py]

I put a standard wedge shaped bailer in my oughtred acorn, and regret it. It lets in a trickle of water even when closed. Just a trickle but its an otherwise dry boat. And it's performance is pathetic when open and moving along well. Never quite keeps up with the spary coming in. She's not a racing boat but keeps up with herons and the like. Its mounted just next to the cb trunk, should work. uselss piece of cr@p

[Wild Wassa]

G'day Py.

If the problem with the bailer isn't a bedding problem like the lack of sealant between the wood and the gasket or if the bailer plate has been warped from a concave in the cockpit, you can normally stop the leaks by wiping a touch of Vaseline around the outer hull perimeter of the wedge and when it is closed it forms a seal.

If you haven't done this already give it ago. 90% of all bailer leaks are solved with a touch of Vaseline.

Warren.

[bamamick]

North America for the SS bailers. Andersen's are pretty standard on any dinghy these days and you can get replacement parts (i.e. gaskets) from lots of places.

Try Annapolis Performance Sailing if you don't already have a preferred vendor. They are first rate.

Personally? I love bailers. I especially love my side bailers on the Star. You wouldn't believe what a difference they make. Oddly enough, the newer Stars no longer have side bailers. I think that the new Swiss boat has some sort of splash rail moulded into the deck (we used to rivet on old Sunfish splash rails), and maybe that eliminates the need for an upwind bailer?

Mickey Lake

[Hwyl]

If you haven't done this already give it ago. 90% of all bailer leaks are solved with a touch of Vaseline.

Warren.



Warren, you're in danger of losing your passport. Australians are supposed to recommend Lanacote for everything (bloody good stuff)

[Tom Lathrop]

I have a pair of large Elvstrom/Anderson bailers on my dinghy, ... I'm looking for any old excuse to change over ... I might just have to leave the bailers open and roll the dinghy down my trailer, that should do the trick.

Warren.

Yeah, Warren I've done that too.:( Works great if you want to ruin a bailer. Vaseline works on small leaks. After doing the trailer thing I got some grease from the trailer hubs and that worked fairly Ok untill I could get to the shop. Never got it really fixed though. Have no idea why the Andersen didn't work on an Acorn.

[rbgarr]

A guess is that an Acorn just doesn't go fast enough. My only experience with them was on Enterprises and 420s, each about 14' racing boats. The bailers would start sucking when the boats were close to planing but otherwise didn't do much.

[bamamick]

As long as the boat is actually moving they should be draining water out. I wouldn't have thought that the speed of the boat was really and issue. A Finn is not exactly a burner when it comes to speed and I used to sail with them open as long as there was enough breeze to move the boat forward.

Whatever. For a traditional boat that's not going to take in much water I'd just have a Clorox bottle with the bottom cut off. For a racing dinghy where water translates to unwanted pounds I would have an Andersen bailer, I'd have TWO Andersen bailers.

jmo :)

Mickey Lake

[gert]

Cut hole in boat :eek:

reason enough to not bother.

I once shipped about 8" of water into my 16' and it took 10 min with the milk jug. Motivation is fairly high at these moments:o

[Tom Lathrop]

In my boats from 10' to 17' the Andersen worked fine,even upwind. A scoop, bottle or bucket works too but if you are racing it just ain't good enough. Watching the crowd go by while bailing is not the best thing to happen on a race course. Cutting a hole in the bottom of the boat is one of those things that sounds scary but isn't.:)