Canoe question from a rookie

[pozwinkle]

I am a complete newby trying to learn a thing or two from others. I have set my heart on building a simple plywood canoe. A couple of designs have come to light and I want some good opinions on them...or maybe a better design. I have been looking at the Six Hour canoe or the "Cheap Canoe". Can you guys tell me the limitations and benefits of these designs. Thanks for all the great info on this forum everyday.

[openboater]

Are you new to Paddling or new to building ?
Do you want to paddle Solo or Tandem ?
Do you kneel or sit ?

Knowing somemore about you paddling desires will make the comparison easier.

[Thorne]

Welcome to the Forum!

As openboat has said, we need to know a lot more about your planned use, number of passengers and/or amount of cargo, skills & tools, budget, transport, etc before we can help very much.

[DGentry]

Ditto to what openboater said.
But the six hour canoe is a simple canoe to build because of it's simple shape. It is not going to be particularly efficient or user friendly, but it will be simple, quick and cheap to make. And it will float and get you around ponds and backwaters just dandy.

Personally, I'd take a bit more time and expend a bit more effort to build something a bit nicer. There are a number of plans you can get from books for plywood S&G canoes, and, if it were for me, I would build one of those.
In fact, I have - here's a pic: http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w117/alias1719/AcanoethatDavebuilt.jpg

This is a "Chingadera" solo canoe designed by Thomas Firth Jones. I threw it together a long time ago (on my porch), from plans published in his excellent book "New Plywood Boats." It's the best paddling flatwater canoe I've ever used. A nice touch is the tumblehome at the gunwales, which reduces knuckle whacking instances (just opposite of the "6 hour canoe's" design).

Other plywood canoe plans can be had from Chris Kulczycki's book "The Canoe Shop" (check out the CLC website for the Sassafras canoes - http://www.clcboats.com/boats/sassafras.php ). The book "Building Sweet Dream" shows how to build a tortured ply canoe, and Skip Snaith's "Canoes and Kayaks for the Backyard Builder" also has plans for a plywood canoe or two.

But a 6 hour canoe is perfectly adequate for general messing about (by yourself, or with a small child). It's also quicker, cheaper and easier to build than the others I've mentioned, so it has plenty going for it - esp. as a first project. Here's a link to free online plans for a similar boat: http://www.bateau2.com/free/ccanoeUS.PDF

Have fun! Dave

[pozwinkle]

Thanks guys for the quick reply...

As for me I have some basic wood working skills and basic tools that I have been collecting for awhile. This will be my first craft because I used to be an aluminum and fiberglass type boater...boring. It's time to build something. I have only minimal paddle boat experience from my high school days (years ago now). I have two small kids that take up a lot of my time so this will be a couple of hours on the weekends kind of project. The canoe probably will be car topped and solo paddled. Also sitting probably will be easier on the knees. I want to start with something pretty simple and work up to a possible CLC craft.

Wow Dave, thats kinda what I thinking about in the photo you have posted. Is that good match for a rookie or should I stick to super simple versus good looks and function. Again many thanks.

Paul

[DGentry]

Thanks! It's not more difficult to build a Chingadera, technique wise, than it is to build a 6 Hour canoe. But, there are 2 panels per side, which means twice as many to cut out, twice as many to wire together, twice as many seams to fillet and tape - and then twice as many of those to sand and fair (not fun). So, it's a lot more work, a lot slower to complete, and has a higher mistake making potential. All that adds up to less chance of completing a first time project within your lifetime.:D

But, if you have the time and gumption and want something that's a bit less crude and disposable, I'd say go for it. I built mine in a few weeks, with little S&G experience.

Then again "for a couple of hours on the weekend" kind of first project, the cheap canoe might be your best bet. If you find yourself hooked, then you can build yourself something nicer, and the original will make a great toy for the kids when they get bigger. Another plus is that it's cheap, so you won't feel much remorse when you take a sawzall to it, or turn it into a planter . . . .

And - this is likely to get a bunch of responses - you won't need to use marine plywood for the cheap canoe. 1/4" AC plywood or 5mm Luan underlayment is perfectly adequate for something that is basically a disposable boat. Unless a hundred bucks extra is no object to you, just use the best sheets of (waterproof, exterior) plywood you can find (voids are bad), and save the BS1088 Okoume for the serious canoe you'll build later.

[Ian McColgin]

The 6-hour will spawn a few more 6-hours as your kids want to paddle with you. Good wholesome family fun.

Start there and feel your way into diverse boats.

G'luck

[pozwinkle]

Great info and a good boost of confidence...thanks

[JimD]

I'm with those who are for a boat with a little shape. These lightweight chined plywood boats go together quite quidkly and easily. A couple suggestions from Selway Fisher http://www.selway-fisher.com/Canoes.htm
:

15'7" RAVEN

http://www.selway-fisher.com/Ravenp1.jpg Adrian Cabedo (see the Wren) came back to us for a second design. He wanted a slightly more sophisticated design, still of the Canadian type, for long distance portaging and camping in Spain. Basing the new design on the Wren, we increased her beam to 36" and by using 4 planks per side were able to give her section some tumblehome. This has two effects - with the beam at the gunwale less than the beam lower down the hull paddling is easier and with the increased waterline beam, she is a very stable design. A bulkhead is incorporated with some decking at both ends giving buoyancy or stowage space and she uses the stitch and tape method of construction. 3 sheets of 4, 5 or 6mm ply are used and the weight is around 50 lbs with 5mm ply.


http://www.selway-fisher.com/Ravenp2.jpg The above/left example
is by Chris Newing of
West Wales.



12' BABY RAVEN
http://www.selway-fisher.com/Babyravend1.gif </B>The Baby Raven is a smaller version of the Raven canoe and has a similar midship shape with tumblehome—this puts the maximum beam down at the waterline maximizing stability whilst at the same time making it easier to paddle. She has 3 chines per side giving her a well rounded shape and she is for use by 1 adult or 2 children/adolescents.
LOA 12’ (3.66m); Beam 2’8” (0,82m); Midship depth 11 3/4” (0.3m); Approx. wht. 48 lbs (22kg).
http://www.selway-fisher.com/Babyravenp1.jpg

But if you decide to go for something really simple then maybe take a look at some of the pirogues and Rob Roys, too.

http://www.glen-l.com/designs/canu-row/canoe-row-images/dsn-robd4.jpg

http://www.glen-l.com/picboards/picboard1a/pic110b.jpg

[cs]

I've built a three of canoes so far and I'm working on the fourth, now all I need to do is figure out that dang "J" stroke. :)

But anyway I've done two of them stich and glue. One was my own design (hard to bend the shape needed) and the other was the "Cheap Canoe".

The Cheap canoe is great for what it does. It is fairly stable and paddle real smooth and was an easy build. You can knock one up real quick and be on the water in no time. I recomened the cheap canoe as a quick easy and fun build.

Chad

[Dave Hadfield]

I built a 6-Hour Canoe, and found that in use it was really an undecked kayak (just a little wider than most).

That didn't suit my purposes, but I liked the idea. I canoe a local river that in late summer drops to low levels, and many rapids become gravel beds. I wanted a canoe that had the absolute minimum draft, and would not cost too much if it got dinged amongst the rocks.

So I used the Plyboats program and designed and built a flat-bottomed canoe of regular proportions, the length of 2 sheets of plywood. It has enough rocker so that with me, and a small kid or some ballast in the bow, plus lunch, the stem and stern are just barely clear of the water. The resulting draft is about 2.5 ".

I thought this would be a sacrificial canoe, but it turned out to be a much better boat than I thought. It wiggles through the rapids beautifully, skimming over the pointed rocks where my stripper (Prospector) would hit. I just slide up to the middle to unweight the stern, and the boat is easily turned or moved sideways or "ferried" across the stream.

Initially I just slathered it with boat sauce and launched, but later I taped the outside seams, and painted. The inside is made as per 6-hour (nails and glue, chine logs and gunwale).

I call it the Rockhound.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y79/DaveHadfield/meinplywoodcanoe.jpg

[Dave Hadfield]

In the above picture you can see that I need about 15 pounds of rocks in the bow to trim it out for rapids (which I would have picked up shortly after this launching picture).

Also, I'm not kneeling. I'm sitting on a simple plywood bench seat that moves around on the flat deck of the boat. Quite comfortable.

For straight-line travel I move aft as far as possible, and usually paddle with a lean to put one chine deeper in the water (reduces the J-stroke requirement a bit).

I can send you the offsets if you want to build one.

Dave

[pozwinkle]

These different designs obviously have their own set of positive and negative influences on the water. I noticed that the Six Hour has a sweeping sheer and higher stem areas at bow and stern(maybe 16"?). While the cheap canoe and others have only maybe a foot high stem at each end. Is there a designed reason for this or is it just for style? I like several of the suggested designs and am weighing my options. I will get a couple of the mentioned books and start some reading.

The Rock Hound looks like a very good possibility (great pic). Maybe you could sent me those offsets??

Also, I read above that for my first quick and dirty boat 5MM luan or A/C fir might be fine. I did some looking around and have so far only found the paper thin face veneer type luan. Anybody in the Baltimore Maryland area have a good plywood source??

Thanks again everybody...Its a lot to mill over and I'm having fun doing it. Heck it seems as much fun looking over the possibilities as actually building the thing!!!

Paul

[LeeG]

Paul, I've built over a dozen s&g kayaks, 1CLC Sassafras 16 and pirough.

I would suggest going straight to a good canoe design for your intended use if you're going to go whole hog with a few hundred dollars in plywood, epoxy,glass,seats, trim, varnish or paint. There's no reason to make a flat bottomed pirough, I assume the 6hr canoe is similar. If you just "want to make a boat" then don't bother with expensive epoxy and make the six hour "canoe".

But if you want to start out applying the 50-100hrs for a first time construction to something that is designed to be a canoe keep looking for something with six or more panels. Start first with a clear description of use. If you want a solo canoe,,make a solo canoe, if you want a tandem, make that.

With some digging you can find a JohnWinters s&g canoe design.

The Sassafras isn't a very good handling canoe. It's heavy, symmetrical, not that efficient, and slews through turns in disturbing way for a flat water canoe.

[Dave Hadfield]

I too would advise either a simple 2-weekend instant boat, or the whole-hog comittment such as a stripper.

The 6-Hour canoe stems from an arbitrary restriction -- how much boat can you get from a 4 x 16 sheet of plywood. That's why it has essentially kayak dimensions. If you throw away this restriction, you can widen the bottom a bit, which I did for the Rockhound. The downside is that you need to make up two 4 x 16 panels, and there will be a fair bit left over.

I made mine from cheap 1/4 in ply, but it wasn't lauan (which as you say is not much good if the surface veneers are very thin). Spruce ply would be fine.

The sheer in the Rockhound really should be a little higher. What the heck, it's just the "A" model! But I wanted as much of the bottom in the water as reasonably possible, because of my need for floatation/minimum draft.

There is not much epoxy in this boat, except for the outside seams, which I taped because I knew they be scuffing rocks from time to time. I used Bulldog construction adhesive, construction-grade spruce, and brass screws. I did use epoxy as simple glue to scarf the plywood sheets. I did not coat the hull with epoxy -- just boat sauce initially, and then later paint.

Scarphing plywood is easy -- don't be scared of this operation. There are several tutorials on this site. Much simpler than you think.

The chine logs and outwales are ripped from a 16ft 2 x 10. It's better to use a 2x10 than several 2x4s because usually the quality is better. (You can make a 2x4 out of any scrappy tree. Not so a 2x10 -- for that, you need a large timber.)

It takes 2 weekends to make this boat. On the first, you join the plywood sheets and rip the long pieces. On the second, you lay-out, cut, and screw and glue together as per the methods in 6 Hour canoe.

Total length is about 15ft 6in. Total weight about 65 lbs.

[pozwinkle]

Dave H.


The Rockhound must have a wider beam then the Six Hour. This also must add to stability. Spruce plywood might be scarce around here but I guess A/C will do. I have found a place called the Pennsylvania Plywood Company that sells marine Fir for $43 a sheet. But the guys there said that "all fir plywood has voids, even marine grade". Anyway A/C is like $16-$25 a sheet locally (no idea on quality). I actually like the lower sheer line look. Did you use similar stems to the Six Hour on the Rockhound? Help me out I am very new, what is boat sauce? You've got me interested in your design, simple but fits your needs.

This canoe will find use in a local creek, lake, and some marshy areas.
I've been talking with LeeG and reading from others on this forum and I think the first boat is going to be boat such as Rockhound, Six Hour, or even Uncle John's Piroge from the classified section of Woodenboat. I am going to build her for the sheer fun of it and then when I have more time and $$ I will spent a 100 hours on a bueaty like a strip planker or Osprey II. While I have the world's most agreeable wife (ha-ha) her patience will grow thin if I spend hours piled on hours to build my boat. When my kids are older and my time isnt spent changing dirty diapers on one and chasing a 3 year old around I'm diving into the above more advanced type canoe.

Thanks

Paul

[jbo_c]

My son and I built the Bateau Cheap Canoe. It was a great project for us. I kept pretty good notes on times and ideas/improvements/mistakes and such.

If you'd like to see my notes, just email me at Jbo(underscore)c{at}yahooDOTcom

Jbo

[Dave Hadfield]

Here are the offsets then. All I ask is that you credit me with the design.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y79/DaveHadfield/Rockdancerplywoodlayout.jpg

Dave

[Dave Hadfield]

The table describes the side pieces. The lower chine is the bottom corner of the sides, and the upper chine is the sheer (since it's a one-chine boat).

But obviously you also need to know the beam across the bottom, and across the sheer for assembly. I'll go measure that.

Also you'll notice the sheer length is 15' 10" 2/8. I joined the plywood with scarf joints, which meant that I started out with 15' 9" max. Small "jiggle" required (no big deal).

And after the layout, when you're connecting the points with the batten to draw the cutting-line, raise the sheer about 1.5 inches at each end. That'll help keep water out of the boat when you're launching down a steep riverbank, or off the side of a dock. Not to mention improving the looks a bit.

Dave

[almeyer]

Maybe a little late to join in, but my first boat was a 6 hour canoe. It worked great for it's intended purpose, and after several years I sold it to someone else who still enjoys it. Easy and cheap to build, I used 1/4" luan for the bottom and sides, and 1-by lumber for the chine logs, rails and frame. I epoxied to parts together, and taped the seams, then varnished the whole thing, and for such cheap lumber, it actually looked pretty good. I think it was intended for a double paddle, but I preferred a single blade paddle and it did well. Took it out on the flat water bayous. Nice, easy, slow paddling to watch the waterfowl, gators, and sometimes deer. A fine boat for one person. Only complaint was that with all that freeboard, it got a little difficult in a cross wind, but a double paddle would help me through that. Not the nicest boat around, but I got more than my money's worth out of it, and a lot of pleasant Sunday mornings.
Al

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

The simple 3-panel canoe is rightly called a "piroque" because that is what is closest to in configuration.
The problem is that traditional pirogues are a bit too shallow and rockered for all-around use as a canoe. They were designed for very sheltered waters. But, there are some designs that update the pirogue into the ranks of canoes.
Of course, one is the Cheap Canoe and it's bigger brother the Nice Canoe. Not all that cheap to build because of the epoxy requirement but well worth the cost. Clean insides, good handling and light weight if you use BS1088 okoume. And, very easy to build.
Here's my Cheapie;
http://209.190.4.227/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=333
It's a bit different from the plans and has served me well for about 8 years. The only criticism I have is it's a bit slow because the waterline is only about 12 feet.
The only other pirogue I find attractive is the "Zydeco". It has all the attractions of a canoe except it is flat sided and flat bottomed. Most of the others have funky shapes, internal structure, and features that make them homely.
The one design I WOULD NOT recomend is the "Six Hour Canoe". It is loaded with faults that make it undesirable. Way too much rocker. Canoes only need enough rocker to allow them to turn in a manner required by the intended use. White-water canoes need to turn on a dime so there is a minimum of the boat in the water. But they are much more effected by side winds and it takes more technique to make them go straight.
Open-water boats need long waterlines that give a lot of glide for each stoke. An open-water pirogue should be set up so the bottoms of the stems are roughly at water level when the boat is afloat with nothing in it. Long waterline boats maintain a course much better. This is particularly important when you are away from shore and don't have a lot of fixed objects to key on.
The Six Hour Canoe also has upjutting stems that are of no value at all. In a side wind the paddler will have to use a lot more muscle to keep his boat on line. If you look at a canoe catalog you'll notice that most boats have just enough sheer curve to look nice and "Hiawatha" stems are a thing of the past.
When anyone brings up the Six Hour Canoe I always point out that the designers were two teachers at the University of Buffalo. They came up with this boat as a civic betterment project to help the disadvantaged. It did achieve that. They had no bona fides in boat design. The only one I have ever seen is in the suburbs of Buffalo on the banks of the Erie Canal. Someone has filled it with dirt and planted tulips in it.

[pozwinkle]

Dave H. thanks for the offsets and info I appreciate the help.

I also wanted to say I appriciate the responses from this message board. I have posted on other forums about my automotive and antique tractor adventures and have never had such informative, friendly responses from them.

I am now armed with the info I was looking for. The choices have been layed out and I'm going to chew on it a little.

Cuyahoga Chuck, I was looking at your Cheap Canoe pics. That is some cool paddling waters you have there with the caves and all. Thanks for the insight on the Six Hour and the Cheapy.

Paul

[Dave Hadfield]

Tractors? My canoe is parked right beside my 1939 John Deere "BN"!

[pozwinkle]

Cool...ofcourse that would be a different forum. Dave, I sold my 1951 Farmall Cub when the kids came about. Now I'm moving on to wooden boats until junior is old to mess with the tractors (and boats!!).