Flattie Plans

[tchiffriller]

Hello,
My name is Tommy Chiffriller and i am 14 years old and am planning on building the sailing flattie designed by Ted Gear. I have the book How to build wooden boats with 16 small boat designs by Edwin Monk. But it does not have very clear plans for the flattie. So, I bought the book Building Classic Small Craft by John Gardner which has plans for the sailing flattie. But it has not yet arrived at my house. Which i hope is the same sailing flattie as the Ted Geary designed boat in the book by Edwin Monk. I was wondering if you guys had any suggestions or advice for me. Or if you have built a sailing Flattie. Where did you get your plans?


thanks,
Tommy

[capnharv]

I would start with the Center for Wooden Boats in Seattle (www.cwb.org). I think they have access to Ted Geary's plans.

Thanks,

Harvey

[DGentry]

Hi Tommy - Welcome to the Boatbuilding world!
I can't recall Ted Gear's flattie, but I am looking at John Gardner's book right now. I'd have to say that, though it is billed as a simple skiff, it is needlessly complex - especially for a first time building project. There are a number of similar flatiron skiff designs available that are much(!) simpler to construct.

I recommend that you check out CLC's Jimmy Skiff http://www.clcboats.com/boats/skiff.php
You can get a kit, or just plans (plans also found in Chris Kulczycki's book "Stitch and Glue Boatbuilding")

Or look at one of Phil Bolger's "Instant Boat" designs like the June Bug or Teal
http://www.instantboats.com/boats.html

Additionally you can find many plans for simple sailing skiffs at the Duckworks site, here: http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans.htm
Be sure to check out designers Jim Michalak and Gavin Atkins for their excellent small sailing boats.

Note that there's nothing wrong with the designs in Monk's or Gardner's books. However, they are positively "old school" (1977 for Gardner's book, 1934 for Monk's . . . .) when it comes to building methods, and things have progressed to the point where a lot of what they advocate is no longer necessary. Do yourself a favor and look into the more updated versions! Building a simpler, modern interpretation of a flatiron skiff will allow you to progress much faster and should cost you much less (in labor, expenses and {inevitable} mistakes), too - both of which contribute greatly to actually completing your first project!

Good luck!
Dave

[tchiffriller]

I do have some experience. I have just finished building a puddle duck racer. But then again the puddle duck is probably one of the simplest boats to build. I really liked the June bug designed by Phil Bolger.

thank you,
tommy

[kenjamin]

Hey Tommy,

I agree with Dave. There are now much easier ways to build boats than trying to loft out all the lines like they used to have to do. Now many boats have the exact measurements of the side panels already planned out for you rather than you having to figure it out for yourself. Check out these stitch and glue boats for easier building for the first timer.

http://www.bateau.com/

Also Arch Davis has a plan that I bet you would love that he designed for his son when he was about your age called the Laughing Gull.
His plans are very complete and he even has videos on the boat being built.

http://www.archdavisdesigns.com/davis_laughinggull.html

Laughing Gull is self-bailing which is something that might come in very handy while you are learning to sail and it's a great looking boat.
The cost of the plans is a very small part of building a sailboat and it's a good idea to get good ones especially for your first build. Hope this helps and let us know if you have more questions.

kenjamin

[tchiffriller]

I didn't know i would have to figure out the exact lengths of the sides. I thought it gave you station marks for the sides. And i am not completely familiar with lofting. I think it is where you make a strong back and then draw the shape of the boat on the strong back. Then you attach the station marks and transom to the strongback. Then you start building the hull. Is that correct?


- tommy

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

If you are not biased against Stitch & Glue there is Bateau which has modern versions of numerous small sailboats. The advantages are computer designs and a fast track from the plywood sheets to the water.
The boat in my avatar is a Bateau D4. It is an 8' vee-bottomed pram that is a serious design from a real live naval architect and the plans were a free download.
Ya' wanna' race?
http://www.boatplans-online.com/

[DGentry]

I didn't know i would have to figure out the exact lengths of the sides. I thought it gave you station marks for the sides. And i am not completely familiar with lofting. I think it is where you make a strong back and then draw the shape of the boat on the strong back. Then you attach the station marks and transom to the strongback. Then you start building the hull. Is that correct?
- tommy

In general, lofting refers to measuring out and making full sized drawings of various parts of the boat and/or the building frame. But old school boatbuilding does include using offsets, lofting, building strongbacks and building forms and using stations - most of which is unnecessary, these days, for a simple sailing skiff of the size you are looking at.
I've built plenty of boats, and only needed to do all that on a couple of them (thank you, Phil Bolger!).

My bad for assuming this was your first build, btw.

On another note - you can gain a whole lot from learning to race your sailboat. If there's a Puddleduck fleet in you area, you should join them, or, if not, check out any local yacht club for their youth program. Thousands and thousands of kids your age are having fun (and/or vicariously fulfilling their parents dreams . . . .) on sailing teams around the country.
Just a thought.

[tchiffriller]

I liked the free plans section of the Bateau website. I especially liked the stitch and glue Canoe. Do you think you could make it a sailing canoe? The First boat i made used chinelogs but the stitch and glue method looks like alot more fun and easier. But how expensive is it to buy all of the epoxy, and fiberglass cloths? For a long time i have been wonder what epoxy filets are. Are they just epoxy coated strips of fiberglass?


- tommy

[DGentry]

Here's an overview of fillets: http://www.clcboats.com/shoptips/shoptips_fillets.php
There are other good tips there, as well.

Epoxy is relatively expensive, as is fiberglass, and it certainly is messy and potentially hazardous to work with - nitrile gloves and good ventilation are important. Personally, I kind of like screw and glue boatbuilding (with chine logs), as it's often quicker and less messy than stitch and glue.
But Stitch&G definitely has it's advantages.
Raka has good epoxy stuff at good prices: http://raka.com/index.html

[tchiffriller]

thank you, that explained it perfectly.
The free Canoe Plans at http://www.bateau2.com/free/ccanoeUS.PDF have the canoe being made with the stitch and glue method. Could you make it using chine logs?



- tommy

[Ron Paro]

thank you, that explained it perfectly.
The free Canoe Plans at http://www.bateau2.com/free/ccanoeUS.PDF have the canoe being made with the stitch and glue method. Could you make it using chine logs?
- tommy

I am sure that it would be possible, but it is generally not a good idea for those of us with limited experience with boat design and construction to make structural substitutions in a proven design.

It looks like the big challenge to using chine logs in this boat would be to get the log angles correct to account for the outward flare of the sides (sheer panels). Creating the small fillets required for this boat would not be very difficult or time-consuming.

Here is a link to my weblog, where I documented building the CLC Jimmy Skiff. There are many photos that show the process pretty well.

http://jimmyskiff.blogspot.com

[Philip Maynard]

Tommy,
I've built the Cerlew from that same book and I disagree with everyone telling your to build something else. He gives the layout of the side planks, you do not have to loft this boat. If you look at the plans closely and read the description going back and forth between the 2 he has everything you need for the hull. Also read his general construction notes in the beginning of the book pp. 1-29. The mast and rigging is light on detail but it's a very simple setup and would be easy to fill in those details from looking at other small sail boats as well as looking at sail hardware catalogs and that stuff is all on the internet. It helps if you take the plan to a copy shop and get a couple of copies blown up to ledger size (11" x 17"). If you have trouble building it in your mind then a cardboard model at say 1/6 scale could help. As far is it being dated that is true, this boat predates epoxy and marine plywood but that is an easy change. Use 3/8" marine plywood instead of the 5/8" cross planked cedar bottom he shows and use 1/4" for the deck. It's really a pretty simple boat and you already have some experience building.

Again from that same book, this is Cerlew which was my first boat.

http://www.pmaynard.lunarpages.com/index_files/image025.gif

[tchiffriller]

wow that is a bueatiful boat. The Curlew is the perfect length for me but it is a bit to complex. How much do you think it would cost to build the Flattee? Do you think i could build the boat soley from the plans in the book?

[Philip Maynard]

The cerlew is more complicated than the flattie and I had a lot of other wood working experience before I started building boats. I would encourage you to go through the plans description, taking your time, going step by step with the drawing. Can you follow it? Does it make sense? If not then maybe something smaller or simpler might be better but I would encourage you to learn how to bevel a chine before learning how to squeeze goop out of a bag to make fillets. The plans have a lumber order which is "old school" and would take a little work to try and translate that into $ but you could use to get some idea of cost. If you want to get into this boatbuilding stuff, starting with a real boat will get you way ahead (and the flattie is fast). If there is someone handy where you live, run it by them, get their opinions as well, they can probably judge your ability better than I or anyone on the internet can (this internet stuff only goes so far). If anyone near you has already built a boat that you can at least refer to, then that may be your best choice. The kits are usually both easier and more expensive than building straight from plans but they rob you of some of fun of figuring it out on your own.

[Steve Paskey]

I have the book How to build wooden boats with 16 small boat designs by Edwin Monk. But it does not have very clear plans for the flattie. So, I bought the book Building Classic Small Craft by John Gardner which has plans for the sailing flattie.

I have both books, and they're quite different boats. But the Gardner book is a real treasure and well worth having.

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

I liked the free plans section of the Bateau website. I especially liked the stitch and glue Canoe. Do you think you could make it a sailing canoe? The First boat i made used chinelogs but the stitch and glue method looks like alot more fun and easier. But how expensive is it to buy all of the epoxy, and fiberglass cloths? For a long time i have been wonder what epoxy filets are. Are they just epoxy coated strips of fiberglass?


- tommy

Thanks , Tommy. You are the first person who has shown any interest in Bateau even thought I have metioned it many times.
If you are talking about the Cheap Canoe I built one of them,too. It's a slick little boat for the price but it gets very tippy if the load gets to high off the bottom. The only way it could be sailed is with a hiking board and a lot of hanging over the side.
The designer did a similar boat, the D12, a double ender which is 42" wide that has a sail option but, the plans aren't free.
The advantages of stitch and glue are: aircraft style monocoque construction (very stiff), light weight, lack of screwholes or planking gaps that would allow water seepage. The only water that gets into my boats comes over the gunnals.
Bateau sells a kit for it's smaller designs that has enough epoxy (1½ gal.), enough firbrerglass tape (50 yds.) and 1 lb of woodflour sufficient to build the boat. It's $160. Just add plywood and you are in business.
Here's both of the boats I built from their plans.
http://209.190.4.227/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=343
http://209.190.4.227/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=333

[tchiffriller]

Do you know the demensions of the sailing flattie in the book by Gardner?
How much epoxy did it take to build the Bateau D4?


thanks,
tommy

[kenjamin]

Tommy, Gardner's flattie is 14' 2" I think. I'll check that when I get home from work.

Check out Bolger's Cartopper. It has simple stick and glue construction. Centerboard is forward to open up the space in the middle of boat. It has floor boards so your rear doesn't get wet. At 92 lbs. it is light enough to car top.

http://www.instantboats.com/cartopper.htm

[CK 17]

I didn't know i would have to figure out the exact lengths of the sides. I thought it gave you station marks for the sides. And i am not completely familiar with lofting. I think it is where you make a strong back and then draw the shape of the boat on the strong back. Then you attach the station marks and transom to the strongback. Then you start building the hull. Is that correct?


- tommy

I agree with the concept of choosing a design that doesn't require lofting for a first boat. However, most boat building books have a chapter on lofting and lofting a simple plywood design wood require just a couple evenings of reading.

It would help you gain valuable insight into the scale of whatever project you choose. It might be just as useful as building a model first.

I found it fun.

[tchiffriller]

I agree with the concept of choosing a design that doesn't require lofting for a first boat. However, most boat building books have a chapter on lofting and lofting a simple plywood design wood require just a couple evenings of reading.

It would help you gain valuable insight into the scale of whatever project you choose. It might be just as useful as building a model first.

I found it fun.

what did you build your model with?

[CK 17]

what did you build your model with?

Actually, I never built a model of any of the full scale boat's I''ve built. I was suggesting that lofting a simple plywood design might be a useful exercise--just as useful as building a model. It's basiclly drawing out a full scale drawing of the top, side and some other views of the boat on the floor of your work space. I had great fun doing it.

You might find building a model more fun however. I would suggest balsa sheet from a hobbie store.

[johnw]

I'd go with Ted Geary's design. Use the plans in the book, blow them up with a copy machine if you need to. The class allows a trapeze now, by the way. One change that might help make the boat more useful would be a casset-type setup for the rudder. That will get you less induced drag from the rudder case.

The class has changed its name to the Geary 18, by the way, and now uses aluminum for the centerboards instead of steel. I've sailed Flatties quite a lot, and I like them. Remember to sail it heeled when you're going to weather, because it's really a scow.

[Spokaloo]

Tommy, I built Jacques' Cheap Canoe for $68, but I already had the epoxy and glass. Id say you could get away with $50 or less in epoxy and fabric if you shop smart, and have a nice little canoe for a bit over $100. I wouldn't sail it, however, as its a bit low on freeboard and tender.

Another option would be the SummerBreeze by Dave Beede. The plans are free, its built with chine logs, simple, two sheets of ply, and from what I have seen a decent little sailing flattie.

Here is the link:

http://www.simplicityboats.com/

And what the boat looks like:

http://www.simplicityboats.com/SBtrim.jpg


http://www.simplicityboats.com/P4210034.jpg

Its a decent rower for its size, carries two fairly well, and is pleasantly easy to move around. I built this one for $70 including paint.

E

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

Do you know the demensions of the sailing flattie in the book by Gardner?
How much epoxy did it take to build the Bateau D4?


thanks,
tommy

I used the 1½ gal. kit and a little more. The sailboat version has more structure in the bow to support the mast plus the rudder and daggerboard were laminated from two pieces of 3/8"ply and the mast was laminated from four staves to make it hollow. I used plenty of epoxy putty on the middle and rear seats to make them air tight for built-in floatation. Finally the entire boat and all the wooden sailing accessories are covered inside and out in a layer of straight epoxy to seal all the wood.
Unfortutately, with the cost of oil increasing the cost of epoxy will likely increase, too.

[dirtsailor]

Tommy,

I would recommend that you find a copy of Instant boats by Harold Payson and take a look at teal. I have had the opportunity to work with youth in boat building and every year for the past decade I have either built boats for them or held boat building courses for a group of kids. The goal has always been to get them out using the boats and give the sense of accomplishment. To do this the boatrs havce to be built inexpensively and quickly. This year I have chose to build Teal. I hope to have 6 two person teams building. I chose Teal because it can be rowed, or sailed and the boat can be built using a screw and glue approach. There will be no epoxy or fiberglass involved. This is a stipulation of the groups that I have been working with. We will use PL Premium for the joints and porch and deck paint for the finish. Due to the time constraints of the build I am going to pre-cut the hull panels and forms. Actually working with a local cnc shop to donate the labor for that. Another factor that I have had to keep in line with all these boats is cost. My goal had always been to stay under $100.00 per boat and to date that has happened. The Teal build is going to cost $66 per boat. Anyways Teal might work for you and if not there are several others in the book, and there is enough information there that plans are not needed. I created a pdf & dxf of teals panel layout. If you're interested you can pm me.

[PaulC]

What about the one WoodenBoat did in its beginning boat building series?

[JimD]

Teal:

http://www.instantboats.com/images/tealconst1.jpg
http://www.instantboats.com/images/tealconst2.jpg
http://www.instantboats.com/images/tealrow.jpg
http://www.instantboats.com/images/tealsail.jpg

http://www.instantboats.com/teal.htm
http://users.sa.chariot.net.au/~ajulian/teal.htm

[johnw]

None of these boats you guys are proposing sail anything like as well as the Flattie, which is a high-performance planing dinghy. If I were a teenager, I'd want the hot rod. And it ain't that hard to build.

[tchiffriller]

None of these boats you guys are proposing sail anything like as well as the Flattie, which is a high-performance planing dinghy. If I were a teenager, I'd want the hot rod. And it ain't that hard to build.


Have you sailed on a the flattie (geary 18)?

[johnw]

Have you sailed on a the flattie (geary 18)?

Yes. I've sailed on several examples. The Portsmouth yardstick rating is only a little faster than the Snipe, but I suspect that is because they don't get raced at as high a level. The class originated here in Seattle, and is still somewhat active on Lake Washington and more active in Oregon. Have you checked out the web site?

http://www.geary18.org/index.html

Take a look at the pictures. Doesn't that look like more fun than the Teal?

[DGentry]

Tommy - there might be a few dozen left over Flatties in the Pacific Northwest (mostly at one club in Oregon), though I haven't sailed one, myself. However, I have sailed and raced many, many high performance dinghies.
And I definitely agree with JohnW that if I were a kid, I'd want a hot-rod boat (I still do!). But . . . a Geary Flattie would definitely not be one of my choices! If you're going to have a race boat, you should at least have something you can potentially race (by which I mean against similar boats - "one design" racing).
If you decide to go the hot-rod boat route (quite reasonable, since you already have a slower sailing dinghy) you would be much better served to find out what is used at the local youth racing programs in your area, and hitting your folks up for one of those. Typically these are Bytes, OpenBics, Lasers (with 4.7 or Radial rigs), the Laser2, 29er's or 420's. Nope, you won't be building one of these, but you will be learning, sailing and perhaps racing on a truly fun and high performance boat - one that you can also find fleets of at high schools, universities, sailing clubs and regattas all over the Civilized World.
And, many youth racing programs supply the boats (and coaches!), so you wouldn't have to buy one, anyway. Check your local sailing clubs.

As for what boat to build, well you have lots of choices - and, yes, a Flattie (crew required, btw) will go faster than lots of the flatirons already suggested. But "ain't that hard to build" is a pretty relative statement. It would be very hard to build (and very expensive), compared to a JuneBug, Jimmy Skiff, or SummerBreeze, Teal, etc . . . .

[tchiffriller]

I own a chrysler mutineer. Do you think i should just sail the chrysler?

[johnw]

I think if that's what you wanted, you'd be sailing the Mutineer instead of dreaming about building a boat.

One way to look at performance is to compare Portsmouth Yardstick ratings, which are used in dinghy handicap ratings. The smaller the number, the faster the boat.

http://www.ussailing.org/portsmouth/tables06/tables06cb.asp

As you can see, the Flattie is quite a bit faster than the Mutineer. Faster still are the Windmill and the Y-flyer. I've sailed both, and they are nice boats. I've singlehanded Geary 18s on many occasions, with no difficulties, although of course, in heavy air you're a lot faster with a crew on the wire. I've singlehanded Windmills as well, and it's fine for daysailing but I wouldn't race alone any more than I'd race the Geary alone. Wood Windmills, by the way, are very competitive in the class.

[DGentry]

"I own a chrysler mutineer. Do you think i should just sail the chrysler?"

Well, you can't go wrong with that. And, there's nothing wrong with a Mutineer (For a short time I once owned a Chrysler Buccaneer - the Mutineer's big brother), though it's not a popular youth racing class.

But my earlier point was that - should you decide to move into high performance racing boats - building a Geary18 (Flattie) would be a poor choice. I'm not saying they are bad boats, merely that they are a very bad option in that category.
Building a Geary18 would be a terrible choice for your second project, even if you're not interested in building a race boat. The hull might be very simplistic, but there are many other aspects to building and rigging one that would make it a slow, complex and expensive chore. For one thing, it's 18' long and weighs 525 pounds! Plus, you'll need to buy and rig an aluminum mast, stainless steel wire standing rigging, a trapeze system, and shape a big steel plate for the centerboard, and build that funky rudder. That's just some of it, of course, and not insurmountable - but . . . WHY??

Anyway, there are many better choices of boat for you to build. And there are many, many better choices for a high performance boat. Lots of these options have been mentioned in this thread, but there are plenty of others, so keep doing some research. More importantly, perhaps you should decide just what you want from your next project, and go from there.

Dave

[johnw]

"I own a chrysler mutineer. Do you think i should just sail the chrysler?"

Well, you can't go wrong with that. And, there's nothing wrong with a Mutineer (For a short time I once owned a Chrysler Buccaneer - the Mutineer's big brother), though it's not a popular youth racing class.

But my earlier point was that - should you decide to move into high performance racing boats - building a Geary18 (Flattie) would be a poor choice. I'm not saying they are bad boats, merely that they are a very bad option in that category.
Building a Geary18 would be a terrible choice for your second project, even if you're not interested in building a race boat. The hull might be very simplistic, but there are many other aspects to building and rigging one that would make it a slow, complex and expensive chore. For one thing, it's 18' long and weighs 525 pounds! Plus, you'll need to buy and rig an aluminum mast, stainless steel wire standing rigging, a trapeze system, and shape a big steel plate for the centerboard, and build that funky rudder. That's just some of it, of course, and not insurmountable - but . . . WHY??

Anyway, there are many better choices of boat for you to build. And there are many, many better choices for a high performance boat. Lots of these options have been mentioned in this thread, but there are plenty of others, so keep doing some research. More importantly, perhaps you should decide just what you want from your next project, and go from there.

Dave

The Geary 18 mast is wood, and round. The centerboard can be steel, but as mentioned above, it's usually aluminum, which is more expensive and easier to work.

How do you intend to use the boat? Are you interested in class racing, or in historic designs?

[DGentry]

"Spars ................ Aluminum 6061-T6"
Specifically they call for "SparCraft S-103 extrusions"

That's from the Geary18 class association website . . . but I'm sure there are still a few of them left with wooden masts.

Regardless, a Geary18 would be a very difficult and expensive boat for 14 year old Tommy to build for his second project (though there's no reason he couldn't eventually do it). And in the end, after expending all that time and effort and money, he'd have what? A slight upgrade of his Mutineer (though maybe not if it had a trap, too), that he could only ever find a legitimate fleet of at one small sailing club 3000 miles away.

Furthermore, if he absolutely had to build a heavy, oversized, complicated, expensive, antique racing boat, the Geary18 shouldn't even be a consideration. A much better choice would be to build a Lightning (though there are lots of other designs, too). Same size, basically, and at least with a Lightning he could find spare parts and used sails and more than 15,000 other examples to sail against around the world! And yes, they still race the woodies.

For a building project, there are much better choices than the Flattie. For a race boat, there are considerably better choices, too.

[tchiffriller]

Your right i dont think it would be economical or practical to build a geary 18. But what i really want is a boat that will be fun and take awhile to build and will not be very expensive to build. I also want the boat to be planing and fast on the water. Any suggestions?


- tommy

[johnw]

"he could only ever find a legitimate fleet of at one small sailing club 3000 miles away."

That's why I asked if he wants a race boat. If he wants a historic design, a Geary 18 is just fine.

Every Geary 18 I've ever sailed (about half a dozen) has had a wooden mast.

A lightning weighs 700 lb. That's quite a difference. It's also a three-man boat, not a two-man boat. And it's a little easier to build a flat bottomed boat than a V-bottomed boat.

Don't denigrate the lad's ability to build the boat. Snipe #1 was built by a 14-year-old boy, and that's no easier than building a Flattie.

I'm not sure why you've got such a thing against the Flattie. Have a bad experience in one?

Often, building a boat is about more than just sailing it. That's why we have wooden boats instead of Buccaneers. And if the designs we fall in love with are not what someone else would regard as practical, well, how practical is it to own a sailboat anyway?

[johnw]

Your right i dont think it would be economical or practical to build a geary 18. But what i really want is a boat that will be fun and take awhile to build and will not be very expensive to build. I also want the boat to be planing and fast on the water. Any suggestions?


- tommy

Take a look at the Windmill.

http://windmillclass.myfleet.org/

If you will be sailing alone, you might look at the Goat Island Skiff.

[tchiffriller]

You make a good point. I like the windmill, do you know of a place where could i get plans for it. I have looked at the Goat Island Skiff before and really liked it but the plans are expensive. I really don't think it is worth paying 100 dollars for boat plans that are not even a hard copy, but a pdf downloaded to your computer.

- tommy

[dirtsailor]

You make a good point. I like the windmill, do you know of a place where could i get plans for it. I have looked at the Goat Island Skiff before and really liked it but the plans are expensive. I really don't think it is worth paying 100 dollars for boat plans that are not even a hard copy, but a pdf downloaded to your computer.

- tommy

It is my understanding that the plans for the GIS are quite good, so I am sure that the fee is reflective of the content. As a design associate for an architectural firm I can say that we charge more for cadd, and or pdf files, since they can be reproduced, and even though we copyright everything there is no guarantee that they dont get reused with out permission over and over again. I actually prefer cadd files as I find it easier to look at on the screen, and when I ruin a copy of the printed plans I can reprint another.

[DGentry]

JohnW - Please, I don't want to hijack Tommy's thread any more than we have -
However, I did NOT denigrate the lads ability IN ANY WAY - in fact I CLEARLY stated just the opposite - please read my last post. I definitely take exception to that.

And I CLEARLY stated that I was not proclaiming the Geary18 as a bad boat. Please read my second-to-last post.

For all the numerous reasons I also clearly stated, either for racing or for just a boat building project, the Geary18 is not a good design option for Tommy.
Your disagreement is noted.


Tommy - You mentioned a sailing canoe earlier . . . have you looked at Michael Storer's "Beth" Sailing Canoe? It looks like it would fit your requirements (fast, fun, inexpensive and practical to build) though it might be overcanvassed for you, depending on how big you are. Check it out: http://www.storerboatplans.com/Beth/beth.html

[kenjamin]

Tommy, the Goat Island skiff would be a good choice. The plans cost the $100 because it's a fast, responsive, easy to build, well-thought-out, comtemporary design. To save money it can utilize a used laser rig (Duckworks states). That fact alone would pay for the plans. The plans really are a very small part of the overall cost of a good sailboat. Don't let plans cost steer you away from a great design. I wouldn't profit from your buying GIS plans, it just happens to be another one I like a lot.

[tchiffriller]

I really like the Beth sailing canoe. It looks really fast and fun to sail. Which do you think would be less expensive to build, The Goat Island Skiff or the Beth sailing canoe?


- tommy

[DGentry]

Well, the Beth, decked, is still about half the weight of a GIS, and narrower. But it has 2 sails vs 1, though with much smaller sail area . . . costwise I'd give the nod to the Beth, certainly, but it will take more time to construct 2 sails and rigs than one, of course. You might email the designer for the full story.

I suggested the Beth because, with it, you wouldn't (basically) be making a near replica of either your Mutineer or PDR. It's completely different, relatively simple to build, apparently smokin fast, light enough to manhandle by yourself on shore or in the water, but big enough to carry your girlfriend (master the boat first!). Looks pretty cool, too, and you'd for sure have the only one on the lake . . . .

[johnw]

JohnW - Please, I don't want to hijack Tommy's thread any more than we have -
However, I did NOT denigrate the lads ability IN ANY WAY - in fact I CLEARLY stated just the opposite - please read my last post. I definitely take exception to that.

And I CLEARLY stated that I was not proclaiming the Geary18 as a bad boat. Please read my second-to-last post.

For all the numerous reasons I also clearly stated, either for racing or for just a boat building project, the Geary18 is not a good design option for Tommy.
Your disagreement is noted.


Tommy - You mentioned a sailing canoe earlier . . . have you looked at Michael Storer's "Beth" Sailing Canoe? It looks like it would fit your requirements (fast, fun, inexpensive and practical to build) though it might be overcanvassed for you, depending on how big you are. Check it out: http://www.storerboatplans.com/Beth/beth.html

The post you refer to is the one that made me think you didn't like the boat. And the fact that you thought the Geary 18 is a 'slight upgrade' in performance over a Mutineer made me think you hadn't sailed one. Have you?

You say it will be hard to find a fleet of Geary 18s to sail against, but where are you going to find a fleet of Beth canoes? The guy wants to build a boat and he wants it to sail well. There are a lot of boats that fit those specs, and I'd say the Flattie is one of them. As it happens, I think The Windmill or GIS are closer to the mark, but the simple, sharpie-style construction and good performance of the Geary 18 makes it a viable option.

[kenjamin]

You can kind of tell which is more expensive from the weights. GIS is 128 lbs. and Beth is 70 lbs. so a lot less material in Beth. Beth, however, has two sails instead of one so that may add to her cost a bit. The Goat will hold more (friends?), plane better and row better. Beth is prettier, classier and more elegant. It all depends on what you want your boat to do for you. Follow your heart.

[tchiffriller]

I have had lots of my friends come sailing with me on the mutineer. But what i am looking for in a boat to build is something that is fast, and something that will be a challenge to master. The beth seems to fit that description pretty well while not being too hard (or expensive) to build. I also love the looks of the Beth sailing canoe. It seems like a boat that will be fun to take out in the river and just sail around.


- tommy

[johnw]

If you want a fast canoe, here's one.

http://www.intcanoe.us/content/view/26/48/

Most of these are hard-chined plywood or cold molded boats. There are a variety of designs.

[kenjamin]

johnw, that's no sailing canoe, that's a flaming side-winder missle only with a more liberal spread of carbon fiber.

Tommy, Beth looks to be the more challanging to sail alright. And she is kind of pretty too. Take your time, though, picking out a design. It's the funnest and cheapest part of building a boat.

[johnw]

johnw, that's no sailing canoe, that's a flaming side-winder missle only with a more liberal spread of carbon fiber.

Tommy, Beth looks to be the more challanging to sail alright. And she is kind of pretty too. Take your time, though, picking out a design. It's the funnest and cheapest part of building a boat.

I thought a little boat porn wouldn't go amiss...

They're using 1/8-inch plywood to build 18' racing canoes now. I'm guessing they won't last as well as my Snipe.

[tchiffriller]

Wow those sailing canoes look they really fly!

Do you guys know if Beth is made by stitch and glue or chine logs?

- tommy

[johnw]

Looks like she's got chine logs, but she's pretty wall-sided so there won't be much of an angle on them.

[tchiffriller]

Man i wish the plans werent a hundred dollars.


- Tommy

[johnw]

But at 70 lb, you'll save a lot on materials.

[tchiffriller]

good point

[DGentry]

"Man i wish the plans werent a hundred dollars.


- Tommy"

AlaKazaaam!!! Now they're (about) $87. Plus $8.70 for postage.

You're welcome.
Dave

The secret to my magic? Well, I shouldn't tell, according to the magicians code, but Australian bucks are (currently) not worth as much as US dollars....

[tchiffriller]

Sweet. Thank you. Should i just order them off of http://www.storerboatplans.com/Beth/beth.html?

[tchiffriller]

What would you use to water proof Beth? Epoxy? Varnish?

- Tommy

[kenjamin]

Sounds like you've made up your mind about Beth but since you seem to hate to spend money on plans, check out this boat. It's the sweetest looking free plans I've ever seen.

http://www.markwallaceshipwright.com/plans.html

You should also check out the modified Swampscott Dory in Gardner's book that you should be receiving soon. It's plank shapes are already figured out for you by Gardner himself.

Or just build Beth. It sounds as though you like her enough to see the project through. Go for it! and good luck!!

[DGentry]

What would you use to water proof Beth? Epoxy? Varnish?

- Tommy
I'm sure the designer will specify what he thinks should be done. Probably including at least some fiberglass on the outside. This is usually optional, btw, though it is a very good option . . . .

But paint is your basically the best, and usually cheapest, wood covering choice. You could paint the hull, and varnish the deck, for a nice look.

If you finish the whole hull "bright," there are a couple main schools of thought - one being to "encapsulate" (paint) all the wood with epoxy, the other school ridiculing that option. Both are valid and have their points, but that might be a discussion for another thread.

In any case, if you choose to cover the wood with epoxy, you will still have to paint or varnish it, as epoxy quickly degrades when exposed to sunlight. Look for varnish, or other wood finishes, with UV protectants. As a sunblock, paint is also the best and cheapest option - too bad you can't see through it!

You might search this forum for previous posts on the subject.

Dave

[katiedobe]

OK guys. I read all the links and I still don't know how we got from a Geary 18 down to a sailing canoe.

I had a Geary 18 that was so badly decayed by the time I got to it I was only able to sail it once. It was from 1964. It did come with a complete set of building plans from that era. I need to find them. I remember that it even had plans for how to build a wooden boat trailer.

Of the one ride I had on the 18 i remember that she was fast and responsive, but not like a snipe or my Buccaneer 18. Man that Buccaneer can move, 7.5mph on the GPS, planing on a reach with me and three college boys in it. Four men and we still reached at 7.5mph under Jib and main only, no spinaker.

I think that Tommy should look very hard at the Laughing Gull boat plans and the support he would recieve from Arch would be a big help. I think that boat more represents what he is looking for.

[tchiffriller]

I own a Mutineer the little sister to the buccaneer. And she really flies. I have seen Buccaneers and they are really nice boats as well. I like the Laughing Gull but it seems to be too much like the mutineer or any other boat that i will own throughout my life. But Beth the sailing canoe looks like something unique and something that will keep me busy for a long time. It also looks like it flies in the water.


- Tommy

[David G]

Tommy,

Really, the price of plans is a very small percentage of the costs of building a boat. Pick the one you want because it's the one you want - not because the plans are cheap or free. Our recent build of a GIS, for instance, involved about $2,600 in costs. That includes a used outboard, and custom sails.

Regarding Beth vs. GIS: Michael Storer is quite accessible. Go to his site. Send him an email with your questions - or invite him to join this thread.

"Character is forged in the smallest of struggles. Then, when the big challenges come, we're ready"

[Chip-skiff]

David— How many hours would you estimate to build your Goat Island Skiff? Any major difficulties?

thanks, Chip

[David G]

David— How many hours would you estimate to build your Goat Island Skiff? Any major difficulties?

thanks, Chip

Chip - the spreadsheet is down at the shop, and is a bit distorted by the fact that it was built by a crew of 4. I'm a professional woodworker w/30+ years experience. The other adult is a publisher and an accountant - definitely not a woodworker, but game. Then there were my two sons - ages c. 11 & 16.

I forget what the total # of hours was (I'll try to remember to look it up tomorrow). It took us just under a year - working one evening per week. I did calculate that - working alone - I would likely have taken about 60 - 65% as long. With the slow speed of the crew, and fixing oopses and my time spent coaching, it wasn't all that efficient. But it was a Great Experience to do this project with my best friend and my sons.

No major difficulties, but some funny stories. Most folks have probably read this one, but if you haven't... here's a "typical" night of boatbuilding with the boys:

http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/06/howto/bladders/index.htm

[Chip-skiff]

dear David–

Thanks— No need to check the spreadsheet. I reckon one evening per week for a year to be around 200 hours. Your estimate for an experienced builder working alone (60-65% of above) in a decently-equipped shop comes up to 120-130 hrs. That's close enough for my purposes.

If the wine bladder issue was your biggest mishap, it must have gone well indeed.

[Tom Robb]

Build the boat you love. Pay as you go if you must. Can you get your parents to front the cash? If not get a job and save the money.
If you love the thing, you'll stick to it, and sticking to the project will show your parents how responsibly you can be - an important thing when geting the driver's license in a few years and who knows what else in the future.
Beth is a beauty and fast.
You can do it.

[Philip Maynard]

JohnW, I have a friend who bought a Bucaneer from the 60's and I've sailed on it twice last summer, it still has some equipment problems so we did not get it really going but I liked it, it was fast. He says he misses his windmill - he used to own one. You have sailed both Windmill's and Flattie's, of those 2, which would you recommend? and this would not be for class racing, just for fun.

[Boatmik]

Take a look at the Windmill.

http://windmillclass.myfleet.org/

If you will be sailing alone, you might look at the Goat Island Skiff.

Thanks for that!

The Goat does sail best two up - with one aboard you do need a bit of experience or bit of ballast (sandbag each side of the centreboard) or a reef in the sail or moderate winds. The best strategy is just to take another person!

There are some big photo series here showing me sailing one of the OZ boats single handed in quite a strong breeze - but I do have a strong sailing background - I would suggest a bit of caution and use of the strategies above.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/boatmik

With two it sails easily and will cover ground much better than almost anything its size - it will even give raceboats a bit of a scare (non trapeze ones at least) and it still sails very well with up to 4 aboard.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/169/379072407_f98d454670.jpg

As far as the plans being expensive for a PDF file. You can order them printed if you are happy to pay for the postage. In fact they are far beyond a normal plan set - really a detailed course in epoxy/plywood boat building - you will learn a heap of really useful methods about everything from saving labour when using epoxy through to traditional spar making (including how to make a spar gauge), making efficient rudders and centreboards, fibreglassing small and large areas - all in detail.

Sorry, but I can't throw in a free set of steak knives :-)

Best wishes
Michael Storer

[DGentry]

Hey Boatmik/Michael Storer - Tommy seems to have decided on building your Beth sailing canoe, not just because it looks good, but also because he already has a typical sailing dinghy. Any extra info or insights you have about your Beth design would probably be useful to him, or to anyone else who likes the design (myslef included). Thanks!

[Boatmik]

But at 70 lb, you'll save a lot on materials.

OK - looks like I had better give some guidlines about the GIS vs Beth.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/144/379091135_dac1a798cd.jpg
The GIS will carry more people and surprisingly it is faster than Beth - I have raced them around and around a triangular course. Much of this is the greater power of the boat.

There are six sheets of plywood in the Goat.

The single sail saves heaps of money in sailmaking costs and saves some of the rigging cost too.

The construction of both boats iuses timber chinelogs and timber to join all the major components. However you can see from the cockpit shot above just how little structure there is in the Goat. Two sides, 4 bulkheads, three seattops and the centrecase sides. Oh - and don't forget the bottom and very little framing. This comes from the OZ (and NZ) tradition of lightweight timber racing boats which average between 8 and 10 lbs per foot of length with complete structural integrity. (I have just saved you twice the plans cost in materials)

The reason I have gone for timber to join the panels rather than stitch and glue is that it does allow the boats to be assembled very simply using drywall/plasterboard screws which are driven in with a cordless drill - fast and simple and means you need a minimum of clamps (see - I've saved you the plans cost again - about 2 times over).

I did draw the Goat up to accept a Laser rig as an option - but I really recommend the lug rig - it provides so much extra power and can be reefed. The plans and my website also tell you how to make it perform upwind and down within co-eee of modern racer rigs - and the rigging for the lug rig will cost you a couple of hundred vs the couple of thousand for the bits for a raceboat rig (haven't they lost touch completely!?)
Rigging link - http://www.storerboatplans.com/Faq/tradrigperformance.html

By the way my boats are not quick and dirty boats to build - they are almost as quick to build as the best of that genre, but deserve a better material quality than a more "disposable" boat.

The pic above is the GIS after 12 years - a good reason for coating with epoxy as the plans recommend. That boat has spent extended periods stored outside under covers over that time and has been sailed hard and often.

http://www.storerboatplans.com/Beth/Beth8.jpg
There were several ideas that were put together in Beth - but one was to capture the romance of a traditional sailing canoe but reducing the labour involved as far as possible. Not to mention having more performance than an 1870's sailing canoe from North America.

Now BETH is probably not far different in cost from the GIS - you do save some on materials but spend some extra in the sails. Two sails always make a boat more expensive.

Because of the decks there are also six sheets of ply in Beth - but only a couple are 1/4" (6mm) the rest are 4mm. As those in the know know there is some difference in the cost of a thinner sheet, but it is not as big as the weight difference would suggest.

As an aside - the two most expensive sails to add to any sailboat are a jib or a spinnaker and I will spend most of my design life avoiding both as far as possible - both give a series of cascading costs that affect almost every part of a boat. Not to mention treble or quintuple the rigging time. The GIS can be rigged in about 10 minutes - Beth in 15.

I do recommend Beth for more experienced sailors - she has a similar difficulty to a Laser class dinghy - so is easy enough in Light and Moderate breezes, but comes more complex in stronger conditions.

The interesting thing is the balance volume distribution of the canoe stern means that she has great directional stability even when heeled heavily (quite unlike a Laser!) and she is very exciting to sail in strong breezes. On a broad reach she will match just about anything. The GIS is faster round a course because of higher upwind and beam reaching speeds.

She is nicely balanced upwind - though sheeting the mizzen right to get that balance is essential.

She is really like a sportscar for 1 person (meaning that you can carry another person providing the overall crew weight is not too much more than around 280lbs - though you do lose a lot of performance (still good upwind but downwind is a lot slower - but still better than other character boats) she still feels right to steer and handle.

I hope this helps more than it hinders

Best wishes
Michael Storer

[johnw]

JohnW, I have a friend who bought a Bucaneer from the 60's and I've sailed on it twice last summer, it still has some equipment problems so we did not get it really going but I liked it, it was fast. He says he misses his windmill - he used to own one. You have sailed both Windmill's and Flattie's, of those 2, which would you recommend? and this would not be for class racing, just for fun.

I'd go with the Windmill. It's faster, lighter and has a national class organization. Wood boats are still highly competitive, which helps them hold their value, and you can get advice on building from people who have built in the recent past. The Flattie is a more historic vessel, and the only planing dinghy I can think of that dates from 1927. If you're going to be keeping on a dinghy float, weight matter a lot. I missed a lot of sailing in my Snipe after I was in a car accident and hurt my back, which made me wish the active class here was Windmills. The Snipe weighs about twice as much and can be a load to pull up on the float, and I think the same would be true of the Flattie. The ones I've sailed were all kept in the water.

Of course, part of the question is how you like to sail. The flattie is more stable, and far less likely to capsize at the dock if you leave the sails up. You've got to move around more in a Windmill, because the weight of your body is a bigger factor compared to the weight of the boat, but I like that. It feels lively.

[tchiffriller]

Thank you Mr. Storer I am a big fan or your designs, while we are on the subject of sailing canoes. I am thinking about building a cold molded canoe. Maybe build a Macgregor 15' 6" canoe. I think that a cold molded canoe would really teach me something about boat building. I was looking online for some how to stuff on cold molded boats but there seemed to be nothing. Do you guys know of any books or websites that have sort of a tutorial on cold molded boat building? Or of any canoe or small sailboat designs that were designed specifically for being cold molded?


Thanks,
Tommy

[DGentry]

Do you guys know of any books or websites that have sort of a tutorial on cold molded boat building? Or of any canoe or small sailboat designs that were designed specifically for being cold molded?
Thanks,
Tommy


http://parker-marine.com/livro1.jpg

But . . . perhaps you are thinking of strip-built construction, which is how many canoes and kayaks are built, not to mention some larger craft as well.

In that case, you might look at these books:http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/414XXZC09BL._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-dp-500-arrow,TopRight,45,-64_OU01_AA240_SH20_.jpg (http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/007057989X/ref=sib_dp_pt/002-5812423-4206404#reader-link) by Nick Schade

or
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/515R5ET2YJL._BO2,204,203,200_PIlitb-dp-500-arrow,TopRight,45,-64_OU01_AA240_SH20_.jpg (http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0937822396/ref=sib_dp_pt/002-5812423-4206404#reader-link) by Henry McCarthy

or
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51K2xbb8sjL._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-dp-500-arrow,TopRight,45,-64_OU01_AA240_SH20_.jpg (http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/1552093425/ref=sib_dp_pt/002-5812423-4206404#reader-link) by Ted Moores

Additionally, any of your strip building questions can be answered on the kayak building forum, here: http://www.kayakforum.com/cgi-bin/Building/index.cgi

[tchiffriller]

I would like to try strip planking but I was thinking about cold molded.

thanks,
tommy

[Boatmik]

To build such a little boat cold moulded will throw you in at the tough end. At least if you want the boat to be reasonably light.

The thinner the skin the more fiddly the method and the more elaborate the building form.

The thin-ness of the veneers will make keeping it fair a bit tricky.

But it would be small enough to be reasonably cheap.

The upside is that there would be no cold moulding job that would be beyond you after that!

I think there are a couple of books along the line of ..
A Cold Moulding Handbook
or some title like that.

The big innovation is plastic staples which stay in the work and can be sanded off later.

Best wishes
Michael

[tchiffriller]

Thank you,
A neighbor of mine was telling me about the plastic staples and how easy they are to sand off. He used them on his Stuart Knockabout and it is bueatiful.

[Philip Maynard]

What would happen to the performance and handling if you put 3-1/2" of deadrise into a Flattie, cutting the bottom out of a sheet of 1/2" plywood scarfed together from 2 @ 5' x 10' panels and used a modern wood foil CB?
http://www.pmaynard.lunarpages.com/flattie/P3090099-crop600.jpg
http://www.pmaynard.lunarpages.com/flattie/P2230071-crop600.jpg
http://www.pmaynard.lunarpages.com/flattie/P2220084-crop600.jpg
http://www.pmaynard.lunarpages.com/flattie/P2230092-crop600.jpg
http://www.pmaynard.lunarpages.com/flattie/P3090100-crop600.jpg

[johnw]

I think you'd have to do a thorough redesign to make sure the prismatic coefficeint didn't fall too low.

If you're going to take the boat out of class, it might be better to just make it lighter by using thinner ply. It's designed as a scow, so you sail it heeled to windward, which works better with a flat-bottomed boat than a v-bottomed boat.

[Philip Maynard]

I was looking at how easy the original design was to build and if you used plywood, you could easily add some deadrise but I do not know where the line between adding a little to "improve" it versus better to start with a new design is. Geary said knew 100 ways to improve it but he was more interested in keeping it in the class. For my purposes staying within a class does not matter. 3/8" would probably be fine, I just did not want to go to thin. The whole thing is just an idea right now to keep me busy until sailing starts, I'm not in a position to build another boat, especially 18'

[boylesboats]

What about the one WoodenBoat did in its beginning boat building series?

You mean this? http://www.gettingstarted-digital.com/gettingstarted/2006_vol1/
The lumberyard skiff.. Well I haven't seen it set-up sailing rig...

This might be the one he is interested in "Salt Bay Skiff"

[johnw]

I was looking at how easy the original design was to build and if you used plywood, you could easily add some deadrise but I do not know where the line between adding a little to "improve" it versus better to start with a new design is. Geary said knew 100 ways to improve it but he was more interested in keeping it in the class. For my purposes staying within a class does not matter. 3/8" would probably be fine, I just did not want to go to thin. The whole thing is just an idea right now to keep me busy until sailing starts, I'm not in a position to build another boat, especially 18'

Deadrise might improve it. I don't know. Of course, in the same book the flattie plans appear in, Ed Monk shows a little deadrise dinghy of his own design that might be worth looking at. About 12' if memory serves. I know, I know, you're having fun fiddling with plans. I like doing that too.

Sailing the flat-bottomed version of the boat is different from what most dinghy sailors are used to. You have to heel it enough to get that weather chine out. You can heel it even more to reduce wetted surface. That can feel kind of precarious in puffy conditions. V-bottomed boats you can sail flat, and if it heels too much, it slows down. Which is a bit more benign than sailing heeled, and if it heels too much it capsizes.

The way the chine of the flattie sweeps up forward means that when heeled, the lines are not so asymetrical as they would be if the stem were down at the waterline. Remember, this boat was designed before Uffa Fox introduced planing v-bottomed dinghys, and the fastest type known at the time was the scow. That's what Geary designed. There are v-bottomed scows -- the Y-flyer comes to mind -- so the idea has some precedent. It would certainly give you lower resistance when sailing the boat flat, but I suspect it would still be more resistance than sailing the boat heeled.

I think these were originally planked with 5/8 in. cedar, which would be considerably lighter than half-inch ply.

[Philip Maynard]

This the first time I even thought about changing the shape of a hull in an existing design, I do not know how to calculate the prismatic coefficient. I'm struck by the genius of the original design, his cross planking method just made it so easy to build. I have never sailed a scow, I was thinking a small deadrise would give you a little headstart on getting that weather chine out of the water and yes that 5/8 cedar would probably be lighter even than 3/8 plywood so it hasn't got any lighter. The appeal here (other than fiddling) is a fast simple boat.

[Boatmik]

I was looking at how easy the original design was to build and if you used plywood, you could easily add some deadrise but I do not know where the line between adding a little to "improve"

A little bit of deadrise is detrimental to the performance of an almost any flat bottomed sailboat. It just means it will pound in waves more when heeled rather than less with the original flat bottom.

Generally if you want to go fast in any flat bottomed boat you want to sail it flat.

The only exceptions are scows and catamarans where you can reduce the wetted surface and generally they are also shaped so that there is not much extra drag from distortions in the heeled shape - wider pointed bow boat becomes very asymmetrical.

The only times heeling is worthwhile for pointy nosed boats:
1 when the wind is too light to get much speed - heeling will reduce the wetted surface of most pointy nosed hulls and the boat is not going fast enough for the asymmetries to create excessive drag. But as soon as the boat starts moving reliably again it should be brought upright.

2 with a flat bottomed boat it can sometimes start pounding when going against the waves upwind. Heel it just enough to get rid of about 90% of the worst bumps. If you sail actively and watch for waves you can keep the boat flatter between the big ones and heel just enough when easing over tops of the troublesome waves.

But if you try this with a boat with shallow deadrise it will pound more when you heel.

I know there is a lot of stuff on the net that talks about the "advantage" of heeling a chine boat "to get more bite". If you have to do this the centreboard or leeboard is not big enough. A slightly deeper board and a boat kept flat will be much faster.

The biggest single difference between people at the back of a dinghy race fleet and the ones at the front is the ones at the back allow their boats to heel.

Best wishes.

[johnw]

Actually, the Geary 18 does not become asymmetrical when heeled, despite the pointy bow. That's because the bow is well above the waterline, and at the water, the hull is a scow. You sail them heeled to windward, not to get the lee chine in, but to get the weather chine out. Since the chines are nearly parallel at the waterline, there's no weather helm when heeled. In races, those who sail them flat to windward tend to be slow, just as with inland scows. It's boats with a pointy bow at the waterline that suffer from being heeled. Having raced Geary 18s, I can assure you I've seen both methods tried, and tried both myself.

Of course, you sail Geary 18s flat down wind to get them to plane.

[Landrith]

I have looked often at the flattie now Geary 18 plans in Monk's book and the one page tabloid plans reproduced in Wooden Boat's biography article on Geary. I have been thinking about building it to replace my Windmill. The reasons are it is designed to be easy and the oral histories now available on the web show plywood bottoms were a great boon to builders and sailers when they were introduced. A great Flattie history resource:
http://lbcsailing.com/Flatties.php

Also, the Flattie has a portsmouth handicap which the great Australian skiff designs don't or I have not seen there numbers and how to convert them. Same problem for UK's national class dinghys. But the Austrailian Sharpie has free plans and a building handbook now on the web. I was given a near finished Hartley 18 which would rock on speed and practical club sailing except I don't know how to handicap it.

The weight JW talks about is a concern of mine also (my old glass double bottom Windmill fills with water and is heavy). In the end its the girlfriend's demand for a suntan space on the deck of something that is not too tippy that seems to be driving the decision. That and the absence of any budget.

As far as sailing flat, I do notice the pics on the Geary 18 site, www.geary18.org show racing flat when I would be at an angle of heel in the Windmill. The flattie sailers must believe they are faster flat.

[Hwyl]

Same problem for UK's national class dinghys.

They definitely have a Portsmouth Yardstick (they invented it)

The RYA seems to have changed their baseline, but you could still figure it out.

[Boatmik]

Actually, the Geary 18 does not become asymmetrical when heeled, despite the pointy bow. That's because the bow is well above the waterline, and at the water, the hull is a scow. You sail them heeled to windward, not to get the lee chine in, but to get the weather chine out. Since the chines are nearly parallel at the waterline, there's no weather helm when heeled. In races, those who sail them flat to windward tend to be slow, just as with inland scows. It's boats with a pointy bow at the waterline that suffer from being heeled. Having raced Geary 18s, I can assure you I've seen both methods tried, and tried both myself.

Of course, you sail Geary 18s flat down wind to get them to plane.

thanks for the clarification! I looked at some pictures - very scowlike - so can more than tolerate heel.

cheers
MIK

[Boatmik]

Also, the Flattie has a portsmouth handicap which the great Australian skiff designs don't or I have not seen there numbers and how to convert them. Same problem for UK's national class dinghys. But the Austrailian Sharpie has free plans and a building handbook now on the web. I was given a near finished Hartley 18 which would rock on speed and practical club sailing except I don't know how to handicap it.

Howdy.

The Australian yardsticks are here.
http://www.vic.yachting.org.au/site/yachting/vic/downloads/Yardsticks06_07.pdf

I just did a quick mental comparison to the Portsmouth Yardsticks using boats I know that are sailed to a pretty high level in UK, AUS and US.

505, I14, 470.

It looks like the AUS VYC is about 20% higher for the same boats.

A Geary as it is sorta between a 420 and a 470 in speed on the Nth American yardsticks would end up around 106 on the AUS.

Roughly.

Note how few classes on the AUS have their rating listed as reliable. This is more a measure of how spread out (geographically) some of the fleets are and also as the scheme is administered in Victoria they miss out a bit on the Skiffs so there are not many results that count toward the result.

In general you can probably guess that the pinch of salt you have to take is a few percent - maybe 5?????????????.

It won't be a lot out - but enough to cause recriminations after mixed fleet regattas!!!

The Hartley TS16 is in the dinghy list and also in this trailerable yacht list along with the TS18 so you can probably get some idea of how to convert the TS18 to the dinghy scale.
http://www.sa.yachting.org.au/site/yachting/sa/downloads/DATA%20TABLES/O5-06%20TY%20CBH%20Ratings.pdf?MenuID=Classes%2F10324 %2F0%2CTrailerable%5FYachts%2F10327%2F0%2F

Be aware though the smaller, lighter TS16 is sailed VERY HARD at the top level and not many race the TS18 to that extreme. Upwind the TS16 is a bit of a "machine" and can give much more modern fancier boats a run for their money in stronger conditions though it is a bit short to do really well downwind (and has no spinnaker)

Also be aware the dinghy numbers go down the faster the boats but the trailer sailor number go up as the boats go faster.
TS16 - .646
TS18 - .591

The Australian Sharpie is not flat bottomed and has a similar performance and skill level to the 505 and Flying Dutchman. It is a plywood version of the old European 12sq metre sharpie with at around 170lbs hullweight compared to the 12squares over 500lb hullweight. Though I do love the gunter rig on the older design.

In general Oz classes are much lighter than Northern Hemisphere counterparts with minimum hull weights from our days of using plywood for our racefleets of between 8 or 10lbs per foot (the New Zealanders and we have had many years of trying to outdo each other in light and durable plywood boats)

It wasnt' worth our while going to glass in most cases because it wasn't competitive as the skins had to be too light (ie thin) for our existing hullweights and the small production runs from our small population not covering tooling costs. We only really transitioned to glass as foam/glass became the standard method.

Best wishes
Michael

[Landrith]

I have the TS16, short a cabin, mast and sails. I stated incorrectly it was the 18. I hope to find a used set of sails and I will make or find the mast here around Kansas City. I see the active club racing pics on the web and figured they are pretty fast.

[Landrith]

I would trade the Hartley TS 16 for a smaller day sailer with a Portsmouth rating. That's why I grew interested in the Geary 18. I mostly sail solo but like a jib. The Windmill is a great design. Mine is just not the best example. There have been comments in the past on the board about the lack of comfort, a rap shared by the Thistle. The weight loading and unloading from a trailer is my only negative experience sailing. That's why I have been looking at the Australian dinghys/skiffs/etc. Obviously an Aus Sharpie is not a single hander, but would more than keep up with the fiberglass scows. I should probably take the girlfriend out of the equation and go with an Intl Canoe. Fast, lightweight (maybe even car top-able) and a savings in material costs.

[johnw]

Portsmouth yardstick for the Geary 18 is almost the same as for the Snipe. Snipes get raced hard, and there's been a lot of rig development, and I think their rating has a lot to do with the quality of sailors they attract.

I like the look of Philip's model better the more I look at it. More buoyancy below the chines would make it easier to get the weather chine out, and maybe you wouldn't have to sail at such a radical angle of heel. Still, I suspect that making the boat lighter is the best way to make it faster. Maybe you could plank the bottom with 3/8 cedar then put glass, or something lighter, on it to seal it so it didn't soak up. 3/8 ply is about as heavy as 3/4 inch cedar, which is thicker than the original specification.

[donald branscom]

Looks just like my 19 ft. sailboat.

Design from D,N, Goodchild. 19ft. cruising sailboat.
Mine has a little more freeboard.

A flattie with dead rise is just a modified sharpie.

Mine is 3/8 marine ply over 1X frames. Total weight less that 650lbs.
the swing keel on mine was a swing keel 66lbs and I changed it to a fixed keel 200lbs.

[Thorne]

How is yours coming along, Donald? Any chance of a launch this spring?

[Boatmik]

I have the TS16, short a cabin, mast and sails. I stated incorrectly it was the 18. I hope to find a used set of sails and I will make or find the mast here around Kansas City. I see the active club racing pics on the web and figured they are pretty fast.

They are slow unless you sail them like a dinghy. Leaning straps - a big crewperson - get rid of all excess weight - and sit as far forward as possible. Crew needs to be pressed hard against the cabin by the helmsperson.

Sailed less aggressively they are a good family cruising boat/gunkholer and not particularly fast.

Best wishes
Michael

Best wishes

[Boatmik]

Maybe you could plank the bottom with 3/8 cedar then put glass, or something lighter, on it to seal it so it didn't soak up. 3/8 ply is about as heavy as 3/4 inch cedar, which is thicker than the original specification.

Not when the cedar is glassed though and it depends on the ply and whether glass is needed on the outside or inside at all if using ply.

More normal plywoods are probably on par with cedar and glass.

For example (apologies for the metric system - but it is quicker for me.

For a square metre
9mm (3/8) cedar - 0.009 x 0.29 x 1000
= 2.61kg

200gsm (6oz glass) inside and out = 2 x 200 = 0.4kg

Plus epoxy - always a bit heavier than the glass because it is hard to reach 50% fibre ratios by weight with hand layup - but here we will be kind and say it is possible for the epoxy to be the same weight as the glass.

Epoxy = 2 x 200gsm - 0.4kg

So it will be more than 0.8kg which adds 30% to the original 2.6kg of the cedar for a total of greater than 3.4kg.

How much more we don't really know ...

Things that have not been counted

The expense of the extra glass and epoxy
The weight of the epoxy used for gluing filling and fairing the strips
The extra labour of the strip bottom compared to doing it with sheet ply (the bottom will be on inside a day)
The actual weight of the resin used in glassing will be extra too.
Whether 200gsm is enough on the outside to resist denting - not a problem if there is a skeg or external keelson - you might just need an extra layer of tape at the chine to protect that when the boat leans over on it.


I had a heck of a time finding anything that looked like measured weights of plywood but here
http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1784644
the weight looks like around
4.6kg for a square metre.

Which leaves this very idealised strip sample only 1.2kg lighter. My guess is that it is going to be very close to a line ball compared to the ply.

It might be possible for a careful experienced builder to save a little bit of weight with the cedar if one is very careful with glass and epoxy use but at considerable extra cost of materials and especially labour.

As the bottom gets thinner in both strip and plywood the plywood looks better and better as the strip has less of the light component (wood) and the same amount of the heavy component (glass).

And vice versa for thicker skins assuming you don't increase the glass weights - which is not going to be the case.

With even simple framing/bulkheading 9mm ply is unlikely to deflect at this thickness.


then put glass, or something lighter, on it to seal it so it didn't soak up.

The purpose of the glass is to give cross grain strength so the strips don't split. About the only thing lighter that doesn't elongate too much before taking a load is Carbon. Too expensive. Dynel and other lighter fabrics will stretch too much and the cedar will exceed its splitting loads.

Also anything lighter wont have the surface stiffness of the glass so the boat will be more prone to denting because it is so soft.

Best wishes
Michael Storer

[Philip Maynard]

I was thinking get rid of all the hull framing except the double keel, top and bottom chines and deck framing. Plus add 1 - 3 verticle frames to the side plank in line with the forward end of the cabin going aft to act as a web stiffeners to resist folding action landing on waves.

[Boatmik]

Howdy Philip,

Sounds like the bottom will not be supported well enough - you can probably get away with very little support on the sides as the curvature will stop them from "falling over" as the span is very little. However the best and lightest way of supporting side decks are to use plywood webs which can be quite light and a vertical coaming.

And if you have webs it almost makes sense to pick up structural points like the front and back of the centrecase to run timber across the floor to support the back and front of the case and meet that up with the underdeck webs on each side. Maybe for a big boat like the Geary 3 x 3/4 cedar up on edge for the thwartships floor stiffeners (I hesitate to call them "floors")

I won't promise you that this will be quite enough to limit bottom flexing if the bulkheads at the front and back of the cockpit are a long distance apart. If the bottom has longitudinal runners on the outside it becomes quite a lot easier (you have thwartships inside and longitudinals outside providing a grid).

YOu could always do a trial with the bottom just screwed into place to work out if you needed more thwartships stiffener/webs or longitudinals on the outside or inside.

Some judicious walking on the bottom would probably allow you to find any floppy areas.

Michael

[johnw]

I don't think you need to rely on the Dynel to stiffen the bottom. You just need to make sure you don't get the planks wet, because that will add weight and shrinking and swelling will interfere with the boat living on a trailer.

There's not much framing in a Geary 18. They are built sharpie fashion, cross-planked without bottom frames. With ply topsides, most of the topside frames can be omitted as well. I think 1/4 inch ply would work fine for the sides. I'm not so sure about the bottom, which has a wider span and less curvature. I've never seen one with bulkheads at the ends of the cockpit, but it's not a bad idea. They were designed to float on their sides without taking on water, but if they swamp they tend to float pretty low.

[Philip Maynard]

The last boat I built was a Redmond Bluegill with a 1/2" bottom. Aside from the rear seat supports that act as bulkheads and the chines it has zero framing on the bottom and it's a flat bottom outboard boat so originally I was thinking for the flattie: 1/2" bottom, 3/8" sides and 1/4" top but I have overbuilt in the past so maybe 3/8" bottom, 1/4" sides and deck. Coamings are not part of the design and would make it uncomfortable so there does need to be some deck framing - I would want to be able to walk on it without any concern at all for it's strength and those deck beams are really not that heavy. Some of the historical material on the class site (I guess from the 60's) showed side deck edges rolled down at the cockpit cutout for comfort but that just seems odd and weakens it. I do like the idea of external longitudinal stiffeners on the bottom if needed for strength, I'd really like to keep the inside clear.

[johnw]

Some Snipes were built with spruce deck beams to keep them light. I don't think you save that much over using cedar, but it's something to think about. Some half-inch half round on the edges of the cockpit would be worth while.

[johnw]

One more thought on the Geary 18. I think one thing that slows it down is the induced drag from the slot for the rudder. You could solve this by either making a cassette for the rudder, which would properly seal the slot, or by moving the rudder to the stern.

[steve delnick]

when I last lived in Seattle (2000ish), I volunteered at the center for wooden boats and it had a Geary Flattie in it's livery...they offer plans for a number of boats for very little $ in comparison to what is happening in the plans world today...I'd guess they have plans for that boat (flattie)...

[Philip Maynard]

I was out there about 1 month ago and it was in the water along with maybe 10 other boats.

[johnw]

Our flattie at CWB has a rather small and flat mainsail on it right now, and the bottom's a little furry, so it's not as fast as it should be. Still, it'll plane in a good wind.

[wdance]

Tommy can you hear me??

Please, build the Geary 18 - they are a wonderful boat. I spent many a summer day sailing one at Elk Lake (near Bend), Oregon in my youth. Plans are available from the Geary 18 Association (www.geary18.org (http://www.geary18.org)) for $40.00, which includes a membership.

Once upon a time there were large fleets of Geary 18's (or Flatties, as they were known) from Houston to San Diego to British Columbia. There were some top notch sailors in the class, and it was a great family boat and not just a "racer". Newer and faster boats became the rage and the Geary suffered. At one point they toyed with spinnakers on the Geary, and even adopted the trapeze.

None of this diminishes the delight in actually sailing one. They are stable, with nice wide decks around the cockpit so that you can sit comfortably when you are sailing. There is ample area to store things like a cooler so you have provisions for a nice sail. They were responsive and relatively fast for their size.

I used to single hand it in light to moderate winds as a high school aged boy, and had a blast! In very light winds it ghosts along, quiet and smooth.

Can't say enough positive about it, and would love to have others revive interest in the class.

Good luck! If you can't find plans let me know, I probably have them in a box in the barn.

[tchiffriller]

Hey wdance,
I was really looking into building this boat, but then other things came up and I was working on restoring a laser with my grandfather, and then, little did i know. But my grandfather had heard of a place called the deltaville maritime museum that his eye doctor had told him about. I decided to check it out and so i searched it on the internet. Then I came across a page on there website called boat adoptions and I am about to finish buying a Columbia Contender 24. It took a little selling to my parents but i convinced them that i could handle a keelboat. So alot of my time will be spent sailing and cruising all along the rappahanock river this summer on my new (to me) Columbia contender 24. The boat is coming at a price that i can afford, so therefor the boat is not in tip-top condition. It needs some hatches to be replaced and some turnbuckes but overall it is sound. I got the book Inspecting the aging Sailboat, which is a great book and helped me alot with determining wheter or not to buy this boat. But this winter I am going to need a project so I am planning on either building sailing canoes or a geary 18. hahaha. But i have learned that decisions like that cannot be predicted. So i will let it come to me.

Thanks,
Tommy

O and by the way i always used to feel like a loser because all of my friends would be posting on Miami hurricanes and Yankee forums and I never really got into it all. But with this forum its a whole nother story, :)

[hurstrescue]

Not trying to hijack the tread, but we built the boat below at the Deltaville Maritime Museum last summer. They host a family boat building week each summer. The picture was taken at their facility.

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i294/hurstrsq/100_0703.jpg

[tchiffriller]

Hurst,
How was it? Would it be worth going to? What kind of people were doing it? Like families or kids or adults?

thanks

[hurstrescue]

Hurst,
How was it? Would it be worth going to? What kind of people were doing it? Like families or kids or adults?

thanks

It was great. I am looking forward to doing it again sometime. There were mostly families, but some were all grown, and some had smaller kids. Was a good mix. My parents and my wife and kids all worked on our boat. I would highly recommend it.

[Boatmik]

Some new pics of the BETH sailing canoe.

Went up to Duck Flat Wooden Boats last Wednesday and they are selling one - so they had these pics to put on their website.

So for those that were here looking at Beth from the previous posts - here is something new to look at.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2391/2530717879_781c88d8c3.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3222/2530717291_8988ef2908.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2074/2530716007_6eb44ce619.jpg

The sail is a little bit too high up the mainmast and the halyard attachment to the yard needs to be moved back a little to cock the boom up a little at the back end.

The front end of the sail being relatively close to the deck increases efficiency but the boom higher at the back provides a similar space for the crew.

Best wishes
Michael