Coastguard Priorities?

[CAPNBIL]

Was sailing in a casual beercan race yesterday, about 7 small sailboats scattered over about a mile and a half on our river in Florida. pursuit start, no trophies, no committee boat. Along comes a small power boat with a couple of CG sailors aboard, and a CG inflatable with other CG's aboard, escorting the commandeered boat. As they pass by, unimpeded by us one of the CG sailers hails "sailboats have to stay out of the channel, stay out of the way of powerboats" There is no channel there, the river is a half mile wide, there is absolutely no commercial traffic, and never a power boat or commercial fishing boat of any great size, and with the current cost of fuel, power boat traffic is next to nil. Surely the coast guard has greater duties than rewriting the rules of the road. Any comments?

[David Tabor (sailordave)]

With the exception of those who actually go out and RESCUE people (for whom I have the UTMOST RESPECT!)...I've been somewhat underwhelmed by the Coasties.

Perhaps a NICE phone call to the local station is in order.
Unfortunately over the years I've seen the USCG turn into yet another place of employment for hotshot wannabe cops.

[Ian McColgin]

The "rules" they were citing are bogus and they should be reported to their commander.

[S.V. Airlie]

Then again, sailboats should stay out of the way of power boats. :rolleyes::rolleyes:

Then again, Ian is correct. Totally Bogus! The guy giving the instructions/semands probably went home later that day to see if he had developed any zits.

[Gary Bergman]

Well, I can top that..in November, we were filming a movie, of which the director had us sailing in place, waiting six hours for the 'photoboat'...during this time, the CG decided to board us for a safety inspection. For not being able to respond during this time, the film company 'fired' us, and renigged on 15K in funds..Thanks, coasties....and we had spent 4K out of pocket in prep and travel costs from Canada to the location.

[S.V. Airlie]

Sorry to hear about that Gary.. I have found in the past couple of years that SOME coasties have become a bit pushy ( and perhaps overly zealous ) to say the least. I think they should take a few lessons in public relations.

[Wild Wassa]

I'd be inclined to check that there isn't a local waterways ordinance that contravenes your State waterways rules of navigation and Int Col Regs.

There are bizarre little rules here in the Territory that many visitors to Canberra just aren't awhere of and that contravene Int Col Regs and the NSW Maritime general rules of the road.

Unless you are awhere that there aren't of course.

Warren.

[michigangeorge]

WE (the American public) have let this ever expanding law enforcement on the waterways get entirely out of hand! Due to the proliferation of plastic boats and their unknowlegable owners, it has become almost impossible to enjoy a day on the water without the intrusion of ' law enforcement' of some sort. They used to have sense enough to leave sailboats, old or old looking wooden boats and human powered craft alone, but now they harass us while some fool on a jetski makes himself dizzy going around in circles. The newest group of fools with 50' Sea Rays is even worse in that their wakes are actually dangerous.
It has become more apparent over the years that this young generation of waterborn cops is truly lacking the common sense and ability to distinguish between the three types of people on the water: Yachtsmen (knowledgeable people at sea for pleasure - size of boat makes no difference), Watermen (professionals earning a living on the water), and Boaters ( all the fools who ruin it for the rest of us ).
A "boater" was once the term for a HAT; something that covered some brains - the brains are no longer part of the picture!
I read an advertisement for a part-time marine patrol job last spring- boating experience was preferred but not required!!! These youngsters out there today are usually not nearly as mature as previous generations were at that age yet are given far too much authority on the water. Most cannot even handle their (donated for free advertising) law enforcement craft properly.
Please,please, fight any legislation creating or funding these organizations further. I do support the knowlegable professionals in life saving but these waterborn rent-a-cops have to go!

[CAPNBIL]

Incidently, late in life, having gotten my master's license, I drove boats for a rescue service, and took in tow a lot of boats in trouble, and pulled a number of grounded boats off shoals. I certainly respect the Coast Guard for the rescue work they do in conditions you wouldn't get me out in, and places you wouldn't catch me in. I think maybe now they are getting young men in who are being taught a different mind set. That part of it is too bad. I was inclined to be a bit mouthy with that Coast Guardsman, but held my tongue. Being boarded by the CG can be too traumatic for me at my age.

[Gary Bergman]

Aye, all but two of nine crew aboard that day were over 50....all of the coasties were just over 20....Now, we do a lot of events where the CG is on top of everything, so it is something about the 'average day' mentality that makes it ugly...The funny but non-humour part of the inspection was...I had about a cup and a half of epoxy microballons in a plastic jar to avoid moisture, and they tested it for over an hour with various drug chemicals..it was heroin, it wasn't cocaine,so...finally they came on deck and said..'Mr. Bergman, just what is this substance?'..which I informed them they ought not sniff, taste, or otherwise make airborn the fine particulated epoxy.......and they had inferred to the harbor and general looky-lou's that 'they really had something here'!!!!.....fuggin' idiots.....

[S.V. Airlie]

WE (the American public) have let this ever expanding law enforcement on the waterways get entirely out of hand! Due to the proliferation of plastic boats and their unknowlegable owners, it has become almost impossible to enjoy a day on the water without the intrusion of ' law enforcement' of some sort. They used to have sense enough to leave sailboats, old or old looking wooden boats and human powered craft alone, but now they harass us while some fool on a jetski makes himself dizzy going around in circles. The newest group of fools with 50' Sea Rays is even worse in that their wakes are actually dangerous.
It has become more apparent over the years that this young generation of waterborn cops is truly lacking the common sense and ability to distinguish between the three types of people on the water: Yachtsmen (knowledgeable people at sea for pleasure - size of boat makes no difference), Watermen (professionals earning a living on the water), and Boaters ( all the fools who ruin it for the rest of us ).
A "boater" was once the term for a HAT; something that covered some brains - the brains are no longer part of the picture!
I read an advertisement for a part-time marine patrol job last spring- boating experience was preferred but not required!!! These youngsters out there today are usually not nearly as mature as previous generations were at that age yet are given far too much authority on the water. Most cannot even handle their (donated for free advertising) law enforcement craft properly.
Please,please, fight any legislation creating or funding these organizations further. I do support the knowlegable professionals in life saving but these waterborn rent-a-cops have to go!

Don't worry. Some states are coming to the rescue. Requiring a Boater Safety Lic. Cost about $80.00 plus or minus. So, ya take the test and pass:eek::rolleyes:..Whoopeee you are now a safe boater. I'd love to have one of these morons ( those who put this test and law together ) give me a hands on water test aboard Airlie. They'd be lost, confused, and useless.:rolleyes:

[Ian McColgin]

There are many overlapping issues in law enforcement and regulation, but to stick to the Coast Guard:

I'd readily vote for anyone who promices to dismantle the Department of Homeland Security and most especially rationalize the duties of the Coast Guard. The Guard has been the victem of mission creep and underfunding for all it's life.

The main mission should be clarified as safety at sea which includes bouyage, lights, radio aids, licensing, inspection, and rescue. Some law enforcement is inevitable in all this, but diverting too much resourse to the corrupt and wasteful "war" on drugs and some pretty stupid "anti-terror" exercises harms an already over-burdened corps.

In any human endeavor and especially uniformed services there will be stuffed shirts and power-happy manderins but prior to being folded into to Homeland Security, the Coast Guard was remarkably free of total idiots. Murking and enlarging the mission has made it harder for the Guard to be attractive to people primarily focused on safety at sea, a group remarkably steady minded.

[johngsandusky]

Counterpoint: It's alright to point out failures in our public servants. It helps to improve service. Let's not be too quick to condemn a whole service because of a few bad experiences. Maybe we should stop practicing medicine because some people are killed by their doctors? It's easy to criticize the USCG with these anecdotes. It's even been suggested here that the Coasties should be able to judge vessel compliance on sight. I'm sure that every member and veteran of the USCG (myself included) could relate hundreds of stories of mind-numbing stupidity by pleasure boaters, even by proffessional seaman. But that doesn't mean we should ban boating. No one enjoys being the subject of any law enforcement action, but it's unrealistic to suggest that we should have none, and ungrateful to bite the hand that protects you.

[Gulfcoastbreeze]

With the exception of those who actually go out and RESCUE people (for whom I have the UTMOST RESPECT!)...I've been somewhat underwhelmed by the Coasties.

Perhaps a NICE phone call to the local station is in order.
Unfortunately over the years I've seen the USCG turn into yet another place of employment for hotshot wannabe cops.

Probably the best advice, and a reasoned response!

[Bob Triggs]

September 11, 2001, the USS COle attack by water,( a very small boat with a powerful bomb) The plane crashing into the Pentagon...the plane crash in PA, the bombings at the World Trade Center a few years prior, the U.S. Embassy attacks... Its been brewing for a long time. The world is a very different kind of place now. And you can bet that the Coast Guard is training these new young people for a very different kind of mission. It is no surprise that we are seeing some hypervigilance, and some abuses as well. It all goes along with the fear of knowing that you- any soldier or sailor or Coastie- are in harm's way now, a target, even at home. I dont condone bad or incompetent behavior by any law enforcement person. But it is no shock that these things are happening. The military has begun to accept people at a lesser standard of competence and ability in it's need to remain fully staffed.

If the Coast Guard boat had it's blue flashing lights on then you need to be aware that they are on an active mission.

I never liked the idea of the government being able to just climb aboard our boat, snoop around etc- all in the name of safety compliance- when in fact it is usually a shakedown for contraband or other evidence. It should only be allowed with "probable cause". Our permissive society and liberal culture towards drugs has only fueled the fires of the "drug wars" and ultimately made these boardings more likely.

I hope you do call this in to their Commander, along with sending a thoughtful letter- certified mail- to him or her. That way it becomes a part of the permenant record there. If enough people make valid complaints they will notice that upstairs. Ultimately they are public servants and they should behave that way.

FYI: I love the Coasties.

[Paul Girouard]

Bob Triggs excellent post IMO, the first part I see as all true. You'll , I think, find people here who will disagree about that first part , some will claim we (USA) brought all that on it / ourselves. Some , a rare few will claim the Govt. DID all that to itself :rolleyes:, and some will just say "Well ya it happened BUT that doesn't LEAD to what we are "seeing" in cases like this!"

But IMO you have hit the nail square on the head and drove it cleanly home with one paragraph.

Welcome to the forum , if you go into the bilge , PULL your boots up , as the crap down there is plenty deep :D

[Ian McColgin]

I disagree about the terrorism list showing why the Coast Guard mission should be warped. None of the cited events of post 15 -
"September 11, 2001, the USS COle attack by water,( a very small boat with a powerful bomb) The plane crashing into the Pentagon...the plane crash in PA, the bombings at the World Trade Center a few years prior, the U.S. Embassy attacks..." - had squat to do with anything the Coast Guard would deal with anyway.

Terrorism is a unique form of crime - crime that manipulates the oppressed - that requires coordinated international law enforcement and international efforts to create justice and opportunity that eliminate the causes of terrorism.

[BETTY-B]

It all goes along with the fear of knowing that you- any soldier or sailor or Coastie- are in harm's way now, a target, even at home.

Is this nonsense going to just stay up on deck here? Damn....

[Gary Bergman]

In my particular instance, it was obvious to them we were filming a movie during a gale, for chrissake!..And the production company should have made some larger inroads about what was going on; we do when we are in event planning mode, but that isn't what happened. Shaking down a bunch of 50 plus year olds dressed in 'pirate gear' was ludecris, when they could have visited us at the dock a half an hour later. And furthermore, that station has been involved with us before,so.....just harrassment that cost me big bucks, and possible lawsuits now. As far as 'homeland security', well I coukld go on for hours on how lax they are on our northern borders; people go back and forth in the summer 4 or 5 times each country, and they don't notice squat...As far as defending me from unknown terrorists, well, I envy their deck guns, but I fear no one; hell, I'm on a fully functioning(if necessary) privateer!!......grapeshot is as effective now as it was in 1776....And I haven't seen any 'evil terrorists' on the ICW as of late...Or the Great Lakes, for that matter.

[Paul Girouard]

Don't say I didn't tell ya Bob Trigg's :D

[Bob Triggs]

Nothing I said above should excuse people being treated badly or unfairly by the Coast Guard. I thought that I was pretty clear on that. I also feel that we live in different times than we did before sept 11, 2001, very different times. I think that a pith of great truth lies in Ian's comments about how terrorism should be resolved- "Internationally" and on many levels.

However, when faced with a suicide bomber, or a lunatic with a sword- one should deal with the problem on the level that it appears. Our borders are not very secure. And the Coast Guard does now have an on the water mission to be more vigilant than ever in the face of an International terrorist threat to our own country. This would necessaarily include heavier boat patrols and more boardings.

Gary; I was not there. I do not know why they boarded you. And it does seem terribly harsh. Maybe if you called the Commander and spoke with them, made an appointment to meet with them for a few minutes, maybe this could be cleared up for you more specifically. You will not be able to sue them for this if the action was withing their protocols or direct orders. It is almost impossible to get a successful suit filed in these cases.

Betty-B: Maybe if you had lost a friend or loved one in the attacks on the World Trade Center towers you would see this a bit differently. Perhaps that is why I feel the way that I do. Most military people whom I know personally- here at home and in the middle east- are feeling threatened to some degree by the way things are going internationally these days. That is because they often know someone who is in combat now, or who has been killed or maimed in action recently. And they see the impact that this war is having on military people returning from Iraq. It changes one's perspective to be closer to these things. This does not mean that I support the war. Just that I appreciate our military. You dont like my opinion? Too bad. Why dont you share something contructive instead of accusing.

[erster]

Bob, I see that you have your priorities straight.;) I enjoyed cruising your website.



It can't be time to stop fishing...I still have flies!

http://washingtonflyfishing.com/guides/littlestone/

http://washingtonflyfishing.com/guides/littlestone/images/guiding_1.jpg

[BETTY-B]

Bob Triggs,

Showin' how funky and strong is your fight
It doesn't matter who's wrong or who's right
Just bildge it, bildge it
Bildge it, bildge it, bildge it

Aaahhh Bob, I wish you wouldn't of gone personal on this. Start a new thread in the bildge. I'd be glad to fix your assumptions there....
DAN

[Peter Eikenberry]

Well, as retired Coast Guard I suppose I am biased. But I have seen some really stupid actions by both new boat owners and professionals. And I have seen unprofessional behaviour by Coast Guard professionals. So there is fault to go around.

True, the Coast Guard has a lot more on it's plate today than prior to 9/11, and being in the Dept of Homeland Security has changed the focus completely (one of the main reasons I retired) but one thing has not changed. The Coast Guard has always had a very strict emphasis on professionalism. Anyone who doesn't act professionally is going to hear about it in no uncertain terms. BUT the Commander back at the group or sector command isn't going to know about it unless YOU tell them. A simple phone call will suffice, or better yet make an appointment and go see him or her. If you don't want to talk to the local commander, write a letter to the District legal Officer. You can find out who these people are on the internet. try www.uscg.mil.

Last but not least, the Coast Guard rarely blows it's own horn about it's accomplishments. So few people know that one of the first responders on 9/11 was the local Coast Guard, evacuting hundreds of people from ground zero, providing hazardous material response and risk assessment, paramedics, and enforcement of security zones around the ground zero. The only reason people know about the USCG action in Katrina is because the press made a point of contrasting our response with the dismal performance of FEMA. Also few people know of the deployment of approximately 1500 coasties to Iraq since the beginning of the war, and the fact that at one has been killed there.

I also hear many of the same kinds of complaints from commercial fisherman, but who do they call when they are in trouble? Who gets the call when some jackass runs out of fuel for the third time in less than a year, or some kid falls trying to climb a coastal cliff without benefit of any training, experience or equipment suitable for rock climbing.

I would invite any one of you to spend 24 hours on any weekend (especially the fourth of July ) in a Coast Guard Operations center (yes they will let you do that). You will be not just shocked but stunned at the case load that most CG stations have. Especially ones in large metropolitan areas.

Anyway. None of this is an excuse for unproffesional behavior. Unprofessional behavior should be reported and dealt with. The Chief Petty Officer who supervises these boat crews would have their a-- for breakfast. So make you complaints known to the right people if you want them taken care of. Other wise you're just blowing off steam.

One thing hammered into every Coastie from day one relating to our boarding authority is "abuse it and we lose it!" Our boarding authority is set in law and hasn't changed since 1790, but Courts and Congress take a dim view of people who are overbearing and abusive of authority (no matter that they do it themselves.) So, If you have a complaint make the complaint to someone who can do something about it. Bitching about it here will accomplishing nothing more than letting off steam.

[Paul Girouard]

Peter aren't they also tasked with some overseas duty in the gulf as well?

In Bahrain, I think.

[Peter Eikenberry]

Yes, there is a Coast Guard operation center in Bahrain. But most of the CG people there are on port security boats and Patrol Boats doing security and boardings. Most of the people on the port security boats are reservists that have been recalled to active duty. Here's some links

http://www.uscg.mil/history/OIF_USCGR_Article.html
http://usmilitary.about.com/od/coastguard/a/uscgwar.htm
http://www.militarycity.com/valor/257231.html
http://www.defenselink.mil/news/newsarticle.aspx?id=15336

[Gary Bergman]

Personally, I'm gonna lay this thread to rest for the New Year. In my instance, there really is no reason for following up, as there is no way that the 19K in total lost funds is going to come back to our not-for-profit organization.The scumbag producer saw an opportunity and ran with it. That said, I pay the Coast Guard a thousand a year to keep my attraction vessel certs, so I am just doubly pissed over this one. We told the first young buck on deck that this was an inconvienient time, and would probably cost us the filming and our earnings, and it did.End of story

[Lew Barrett]

In 20 years we've only been boarded once, and been asked to assist in operations twice.

The boarding: we were deep in home waters. Personally, I think it was something of a "practice boarding." Rita is hardly the type of vessel that appears to offer a threat, but, who knows why we were chosen? It was a calm day, for which I was grateful We were hailed by a 24 foot inflateable armed with a 30 cal machine gun. Three big guys with Barettas and loaded belts came on board. They had to turn sideways to get through Rita's relatively large companion ways. We were coming home from the yard, so we were all torn up, which wasn't a plus. Rita meets almost every known regulation, so we weren't cited for anything despite our somewhat haphazard state. In fact, the guys showed great interest in her. They were from places like North Dakota and Montana if I recall, and I showed them deference rather than annoyance, although I was mildly bothered, as anybody would be I tried to keep it to myself, as they were just doing their jobs. They were professional and polite, asked to see the engine room and our fire-fighting gear. When they left, they gave me a piece of paper and told me if I was hailed again I should tell the next galoots on the radio that I'd been pulled over and to quote their boat number and tell the new guys to move along.

The other two times I was asked to assist in a search and rescue (we located a swamped small boat) and then on another occasion to maintain distance from an outgoing submarine patrol/convoy and that was exciting, actually. The search and rescue mission was sad because the boat was full of picnic gear, swamped, but no people aboard. A tug was called and they hauled the boat out, we went along our way.

So, that's what my experience has been apart from being rocked like crazy when the 87 footers blow by.

Very infrequently I may get a hail on the radio with a call to move aside, but that's what I expect from cops.
If I were making my living at sea, I'd probably feel differently, but I'm not, so it's just an inconvenience. Once in a while, they wave.

[Paul Girouard]

Yes, there is a Coast Guard operation center in Bahrain. But most of the CG people there are on port security boats and Patrol Boats doing security and boardings. Most of the people on the port security boats are reservists that have been recalled to active duty. Here's some links

http://www.uscg.mil/history/OIF_USCGR_Article.html
http://usmilitary.about.com/od/coastguard/a/uscgwar.htm
http://www.militarycity.com/valor/257231.html
http://www.defenselink.mil/news/newsarticle.aspx?id=15336



That's what I was thinking, it shows the stretching / added missions that 9/11 has brought on.

But of course none of that matters:rolleyes:

Heave too , be polite , your boating for fun , most of you , so whats the rush . Offer the guys a cup of coffee.

Situations like Gary's will be few and far between. And IF any of you ever NEED help those same crews will respond to bail your arse's out.

Write your letters , lodge your issues with the local and /or fleet / area offices/ Commanders.

YMMV :rolleyes:

[paladin]

My only "involvement" with a coast guard boarding was after sailingin to an area near Myrtle Beach....they had been tracking me from somewhere between Florida and the Bahamas.....and initially came alongside with all the whooptydoo blue lights loud hailer etc wanting all sails down and engine stopped....(damn engine wasn't running). The asked everyone to stay in the cockpit while they looked below and after poking around like the gestapo for about 20 minutes they asked why I hadn't checked through the nearest customs when I enteredt U.S. waters...(the boat was Thai registry). I said I didn't know that I had to clear customs every time I went sailing. The dude was starting to get annoyed....he noted that I was a U.S. national and I should know this. I said I just sailed from Biloxi Miss. on my way to Annapolis so please tell me where in the regs I had to check in and out of customs when sailing from a U.S. port to a U.S. port.....after checking my logs and all other documentation they decided I wasn't a threat, although they did all take note of the rum locker.
And...not many days later as I sailed into the harbor near Annapolis I was boarded by the local crew for a safety inspection......they gave me a citation for having no safety wire and seal on one of the diverter valves for the head.........

[Peter Eikenberry]

Sounds like you somehow got on the "watch list". About ten years ago one boat was boarded four or five times while sailing up the east coast. Eventually it got taken off the list. Or it may be that your boat is very similar to one on the watch list.

[Peter Eikenberry]

Paul, the mantra for years has always been, "be firm but polite".
Way back in 1790, Alexander Hamilton wrote a letter to the new Revenue Cutter Officers explaining their duties. It is mandatory reading by all USCG personnel. It stiil applies. http://www.uscglightshipsailors.org/creation_cutter_service.htm

Try to remember that some of these people are just kids, 18, 19, 20 year olds and many never saw a boat until they went to boat camp. The boat coxswain and the boarding officer (usually a third or second class petty officer) have been to school, may even have been to Cape Dissapointment for surf boat training, have been through boarding officer and law enforcement training, and a variety of other schools, but may have never been on a sail boat except during a boarding. They probably have several years experience with small power boats. The crew (that is the people who aren't actually operating the boat) are in training and still learning the ropes. If you get boarded from a larger Patrol boat, 87 footer, (you can tell the length by the first two numbers such as 87001) the Commanding Officer is more than likely a Senoir Cheif or Master Chief Petty Officer. Thes guys have been around for 20 some years or more and know their stuff or they wouldn't be trusted with command. They also are not going to put up with any unproffessional behaviour by their crew becaus it reflects on them.

If you have a problem, jot down the number of the boat, the date, time and place and a brief synopsis of what happened. Put it in your log. Now it is an official record (yeah your log is not just some record of your memoirs, or where you write notes to remind your self to change the oil) Make note of the weather and sea conditions. If you were given a citation note it in the log. Then if your not happy with the way things went, as I said before contact the group or sector command. The Group is the command that overseas all the CG stations and patrol boats in a geographic area. For example Group San Francisco overseas most of central California. A Sector overseas many groups. Anyway you can get this info off the web site.

And by the way, "Atta Boys" are always appreciated as well. But people often forget to say thank you, even when you save them.

[skuthorp]

"I have found in the past couple of years that SOME coasties have become a bit pushy"

See thread re "Transit USA". http://www.woodenboatvb.com/vbulletin/upload/showthread.php?t=73766 Part of the politics of fear enthusiasticly embraced by govt's sinc the useless nuke warnings for school children in the 1950's. Makes the 'masses' more predictable and trains them to obey.

[Peter Eikenberry]

Top ten Coast Guard Rescues of 2007
http://www.app.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080102/NEWS/80102007

[Lew Barrett]

I think the coastal waters between Washington and BC's Gulf Islands, including Vancouver and Victoria, are among the busiest, if not the busiest, international sea lanes in the country. I've been told that no boats cross the border anywhere along the Straight without being seen and that very sophisticated surveillance equipment has been and continues to be installed in the area.

I don't know how accurate this is as a blanket statement, since I was told this second hand, but I won't be testing it.

Now to the point: Canadian and US authorities work so closely together that it's hard to imagine that US Customs didn't know who they were interviewing when they sat the lady down. They know us when we come, and they will know most legitimate travelers. If they stop you and have an interest, they will have a positive ID within a few minutes if they want it. The records are readily available to both governments in a matter of minutes. This was in all probability harassing fire.