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pipefitter
10-09-2005, 04:40 PM
Does anyone here have any up close pictures of these different non skid methods and what the end results are such as on a painted deck? I have read alot of posts concerning this and have yet to actually see what it looks like.
The salt/sugar or walnut shell.

[ 10-09-2005, 05:44 PM: Message edited by: pipefitter ]

Paul Pless
10-09-2005, 06:30 PM
One of the best posts (as in humorous) referred to using the sugar method and having every ant mound within 500 yards erecting a monument of thanks to the boatbuilder that used it.

Was that you Smalser?

I don't have any pics now but I'll put some up tomorrow of a nonskid I did with sand, very happy with it.

kc8pql
10-09-2005, 06:46 PM
This is the salt shaker into wet paint method. It's actually ground lexan, sold by System Three. It's advantage over sand is that it can be sanded with 220 grit to give just the amount of roughness you want. It is also easy to sand off when it comes time to replace it.

Hese's a closeup:
http://tinypic.com/egqo14.jpg

And from a distance:
http://tinypic.com/egqomo.jpg

pipefitter
10-09-2005, 07:02 PM
I have seen sand used on our aluminum hard top towers sprinkled in Imron and then painted over and to this day I have seen a job that is 12 yrs old and still looks brand new. I am using one part paint with the taped edge method you have shown which looks awesome.I ordered the fine non skid from i-lux but it is almost like powder.I am wondering if the coarse is between the fine and regular sand. What about awlgrips version?I have my topsides taped and i have access to the above mentioned materials so I dont have to let the tape bake on all day tomorrow.I dont know how long fine line tape will stay. Great pic,btw,that shows it well. I just want a sandy texture but smaller than play sand and easy removal after the fact is the biggest plus.

I did try the instant grits on a paint stick and that is one serious downhill texture.They do absorb the paint and they are all about the same size.But scarey looking nonetheless.That has hurt ya written all over it.

[ 10-09-2005, 08:06 PM: Message edited by: pipefitter ]

Kim Whitmyre
10-09-2005, 07:26 PM
When I stripped and fiberglassed the foreward beam on my cat last winter, I used the Interlux non-skid additive on the top horizontal surface of the beam. Just mixed it in a bit of the paint, and rolled it on. I like the results: non-skid, as advertised, and fine enough to not hurt you ;)

I went down to my shop and looked at the can: doesn't say coarse or fine, just "2398c."

Kim

[ 10-09-2005, 08:31 PM: Message edited by: Kim Whitmyre ]

paladin
10-09-2005, 07:33 PM
On three previous boats I used fine aquarium sand in the paint and was very pleased with it...

pipefitter
10-09-2005, 08:24 PM
I know the sand works and really looks nice but on a one part finish if it ends up not lasting for more than a couple years,due to using one part paint over the more durable 2 parts,I just want to be able to sand it right off come renewal time.Yes,Kim,that is the same as on the can I have and is all that Jamestown had.I saw on Yachtpaint.com where there was 2 differnt kinds.I was hoping the fine was larger than that but it is pretty fine.I dont know what will be left of it when topcoated over. It is for a pattern on a sheerdeck for looks more than to be used under foot.I have some test pieces done on paint sticks and will know more when it dries....it may well be the right size and I can't tell with such small samples.

JimConlin
10-09-2005, 09:18 PM
I've rolled on the Interlux nonskid stuff in Interlux LPU and it gave a fine-textured nonskid surface. A little blotchy, but still OK. Needed re-coating after 5 years or so.

I talked recently with a painter at a very high-end custom builder and their technique is to spray on a coat of LPU, immediately cover it lavishly with the Awlgrip Griptex nonskid compound, let dry, sweep/vacuum off, then re-spray. The result was very good. The Griptex stuff is around $15/qt. at wholesale, so if you can recover that which does not adhere the cost isn't insane.

The nice thing about the synthetic nonskid compounds is that they can easily be sanded off and that they don't dissolve, leaving craters to trap crud.

pipefitter
10-09-2005, 09:23 PM
I saw the awlgrip stuff at boater's world is exactly why I was curious about that.Thanks for that info. They are on my way to work and I get a discount from them via my company. What's another 15.00 by this point? I could have burned up quadruple the amount of gas by now if I wasn't so damned picky.

Bob Smalser
10-09-2005, 09:39 PM
Originally posted by Paul Pless:
One of the best posts (as in humorous) referred to using the sugar method and having every ant mound within 500 yards erecting a monument of thanks to the boatbuilder that used it.

It was just a small plaque,actually.

But I'm very proud of it.

http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/3075025/114523064.jpg

Now I use salt.

The Naval shipyard down the road uses sand exclusively. But they sandblast everything come repaint time.

[ 10-09-2005, 10:45 PM: Message edited by: Bob Smalser ]

kc8pql
10-09-2005, 09:43 PM
Originally posted by JimConlin:

...their technique is to spray on a coat of LPU, immediately cover it lavishly with the Awlgrip Griptex nonskid compound, let dry, sweep/vacuum off, then re-spray. The result was very good. The Griptex stuff is around $15/qt. at wholesale, so if you can recover that which does not adhere the cost isn't insane.That's how I did it in the pics above. I used a small, clean shop vac and wasted very little.

pipefitter
10-09-2005, 09:51 PM
kc8pql - what paint is that used with and was it semigloss?
No sugar dared to try here since all the mutant bugs and critters live in FL.

[ 10-09-2005, 10:55 PM: Message edited by: pipefitter ]

kc8pql
10-09-2005, 09:59 PM
It's System Three waterborn LPU which is semi-gloss unless you use the clear topcoat. I like the lower sheen myself. High gloss looks too plastic on a traditional boat like mine and it shows all the dings and imperfections. Just personal preference.
Edited to add: I've used it with varnish on the companionway steps and with Briteside as a stepplate on the caprail. Seems to hold up well with both of those finishes too.
Ken

[ 10-09-2005, 11:03 PM: Message edited by: kc8pql ]

pipefitter
10-09-2005, 10:06 PM
I like semigloss as well and intend to make that my final topcoat on the sheer deck. I want less glare too which I think semigloss will do a better job of.
Also,the joinery work on the bright wood didn't go unnoticed. the whole pic looks good

[ 10-09-2005, 11:12 PM: Message edited by: pipefitter ]

Nicholas Carey
10-09-2005, 10:06 PM
We talked at length about using salt/sugar on paint in this thread:

http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=4;t=001072

Wild Wass (Warren), one of our Friends from OZ tried it out on one of his dinghies and has posted photos and goes into the technique he worked out in some detail.

pipefitter
10-09-2005, 10:28 PM
I saw that post but couldnt really tell what it looks like close up.I didn't know if would like the holes that may hold water and dirt.

[ 10-09-2005, 11:29 PM: Message edited by: pipefitter ]

JimConlin
10-09-2005, 11:23 PM
Griptex comes in two granule sizes. I neglected to ask which one was used. Any data here?

RonW
10-09-2005, 11:23 PM
Pumice, is the best. I use it all the time.
It only takes 5 oz. per 5 gallons, you could double the ratio for a deck on a boat. It fells like fine sandpaper, and looks great, instead of looking like a section of rubber mat off of a treadmill.

pipefitter
10-10-2005, 12:34 AM
I would like to know about the griptex too because there is no data on the websites showing what is what. Just says fine and coarse.I am looking for something smaller than table salt but not as powdery fine as the fine stuff from interlux or as fine as the stuff they have mixed in the interdeck non skid paint which I feel is brightsides with the fine powder added to it.

stevenj
10-10-2005, 09:05 AM
let's not forget the grits...

WBF grits (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=012388&p=)

stevenj

pipefitter
10-10-2005, 09:15 AM
I tried the grits just for the hell of it and they work. Way too coarse tho. More so than 36 grit sandpaper.

pipefitter
10-10-2005, 11:55 PM
Ok,after reviewing all the different non skid additives I have settled on the griptex but as I was looking at different non skids on some boats at the shop ,I came across one that had a fine orange peel sprayed on instead of sand or waffle patterns. It looked really neatly done and seemed the most user friendly.This pattern is the same size and look of the fine orange peel we used to spray on walls (fine as in the peel of an orange,not m&m's shot on the wall)with a hopper on it's smallest nozzle setting.Does anyone know of an additive one can put in oil paint that would have enough body to hold the pattern sprayed without it running off or melting into a mess? What about cabosil or something like that?Has anyone tried this.

[ 10-11-2005, 02:38 AM: Message edited by: pipefitter ]

Wild Wassa
10-11-2005, 12:34 AM
Pipfitter I do, it will take me a while to get it together. I always post in stages.

Sugar textured anti-skid in polyurethane. I used a normal sugar with a slightly larger grain size. I allow the polyurethane, 7-10 days of curing before washing off the sugar and then allow a day or two before recoating. I put the sugar on to a depth of 2cm (for both sugar and salt). The weight is important to aid the embossing for both sugar and salt textured anti-skids.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid24/p8d8cc73ce1140bb0371e8129325aae08/fd963238.jpg

Above, test on an old blade. Coverage is about 20x15cm.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid24/pf5c0e0789cbd566b2e1e39e3de6b3b2d/fd9631df.jpg

Above, close up of another test. The strips of anti-skid are each, about 3cm in width.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid24/p981f66a5833a4d21fe082b1047ddfd7d/fd941423.jpg

Above, I've only used the polyurethane as taped strips of ant-skid. After 3 years (not this photo) they are still as new.

Salt textured anti-skid in varnish. I allow 30 days for the varnish to cure under the salt before washing the salt off and then recoating as the varnish stays soft for a month. I use a uniform 2.5 to 3mm crystal sized rock salt. 75% of the salt is reuseable, to help keep the cost down. After the salt is washed off, the surface becomes milky. This is corrected by recoating with varnish using a stippling application. Otherwise the texture will be partly filled in if paint is brushed on normally to strengthen the anti-skid surface.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid166/p465b8e2e60ccf7771456d637e378ee29/f4570e43.jpg

Above. Lots of salt. The weight is important, if a uniform texture is wanted.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid136/p291cf4fa1d7093e6ebfecbaee0b447cf/f75638b7.jpg

Above. After a week of curing the majority of the salt is gently swept off. This speeds up the curing process.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid164/pe66bebb5554ee8ddd48fee8cba32a42d/f48577b6.jpg

Above, Getting rid of the milky look by re-coating with varnish. In the botom right hand corner some of the milkiness is still to be re-coated.

Dominion Plastics rubberised anti-skid 'Tredgrip'. A pulverized cross-linking rubberized anti-skid. This is a particularly fine quality anti-skid. Very easy to tape and apply, you just roll it on until it is uniform, about 3 three coats works well. I buy a white base and get the base tinted. Tint using acrylic tints. There are normally a dozen colours in the Tredgrip range but not ever the colour that I want.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid127/p72df8e665fea18313af96985443c2114/f7eda7dc.jpg

Warren.

[ 10-11-2005, 04:49 AM: Message edited by: Wild Wassa ]

pipefitter
10-11-2005, 01:10 AM
Problem here in Florida is that even in broad daylight,the salt attracts so much humidity that it is actually dripping wet to where you can actually pour the water off. It does funky things to the paint. Like painting a house and having it rain before it is dry.The paint becomes scummy kind of and I dont know if it would ever dry out.I dont think I want my boat continuously wet for weeks waiting for the paint to dry. The salt would actually disolve itself.I had to dry the test piece over the stove letting the board get quite warm to touch.All your stuff looks great and your salt looks dry still.So what is your favorite texture,Wassa? The tredgrip?

I also have a test piece with home store paint additive that is to resemble sand.It feels like ground perlite and comes in different grits. This is about the size of small silica and with it's shape.I am seeing if it absorbs the paint or gains toughness as it is coated.Has a nice real sand look to it.
Really like the blues in that photo. Really a rich, vibrant looking color

Do you suspect that the milkiness in the varnish is moisture being attracted to salt residue in the varnish?

The home center fake sand texture looks like the tredgrip photo you posted on the bottom(beige color). It is at this point in it's cure, semi crushable yet it gains it's shape back.A quart sized box was $2.11 .I know that in a day or so the pint will be substantially harder so will be interesting to see how this stuff holds up trying to rub it off.

[ 10-11-2005, 02:45 AM: Message edited by: pipefitter ]

Wild Wassa
10-11-2005, 01:59 AM
Pipefitter, working on little boats as I do, it is no real drama to blow a warm heater over the areas that I anti-skid for a day or two, to keep the condensation down. I fully understand the moisture problem.

Although I live in a region of very low humidity generally, the build-up of condensation is a problem. After the first three days any moisture stops being a problem to the paint. As the paint has set and is well on the way to drying. I notice that the hardening of the paint under both sugar and salt remains a drama for a while.

I like Tredgrip for any boat that kids will sail. If they fall in it, they don't de-bark themselves, like they will if they fall on hard grits, like sand. I also like Tredgrip because it is such a simple process and gives a professional and high quality look without much work. Although I use Tredgrip there are equivalent products and know doubt they are equal in quality. Tredgrip is originally a paving paint which has been enbraced by the boating industry here.

The only drama with Tredgrip (both Stilleto and I have suffered from this in the past) is that the first coat must be physically keyed well to what ever paint underlies it otherwise it can fail to adhere. I find a physical key with #180 is good. Keyed with #120 is even better. Once the first coat of Tredgrip is on just keep rolling and applying further coats until it is uniform. Tredgrip appears to be seamless. I pull all tapes within minutes after the surface is coated. I don't wait.

The milkiness with the varnish is a 'Callier effect' a diffusion and scattering of light, caused by porosity in the paint. White due to salt residue? I've noticed that happens, so I wash all residual salt off. The remaining whiteness is fixed by re-coating. When I first wash the salt off, water also causes a milkiness until dry. I allow the varnish at least 2 days to dry before re-coating. Problems of milkiness can occur if you trap water, for sure.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid190/pbcbd8162dcb3a3e50eef95eef8e1f6c3/f1ef52ff.jpg

Above, Varnish just after the salt has had a good hose down. Once re-coated the white just disappears.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid147/p0188900ab8aa08a381275986b4f9bd17/f6350ce9.jpg

Above, A close up of the recoated varnish (about 2x2cm). I usually apply two strengthening coats after the sugar or salt has been washed off. Always stippled on, never brushed.

The blue paint is a 2 pack water based polyurethane, 'Aquacote'. Over coloured polyurethane, I apply two coats of clear poly, which helps to unify the gloss and enrich the chroma (the depth within the colour).

Warren.

[ 10-11-2005, 09:00 AM: Message edited by: Wild Wassa ]

pipefitter
10-11-2005, 09:51 PM
Thanks for all the information and photos. The perlite imitation sand looks nice but it probably right up with styrofoam in absorption and toughness. You can scratch it off with a fingernail. I have ordered the awlgrip griptex compound. The guy who does all our fibreglass hardtops uses it for antiskid.He told me what to get and it is inexpensive through my work.It comes in 3 sizes...fine,coarse and extra coarse. The coarse is like smallish uniform sand grains.He mixes his with awlgrip paint and sprays it on.
I would like to do the spray on fine orange peel but I dont know if brightsides dries fast enough to hold it's sprayed shape or what to use for s thickener. What additives can be added to alkyd gloss paint.I would like to test it out to see what I can come up with? What is the solid in primer?

Dave Wright
10-12-2005, 10:30 AM
A couple of things I've found with "sharp" non-skid additives (in additon to their discomfort on bare skin):

On a light surface the aggresive ones are a bitch to keep clean if you have your boat at a mooring. Mold and grit just seem to cling to the stuff. And when the stuff is freshly washed, just walking over it with clean bare feet leaves tracks.

With sharp particles (I'd used System 3 plastic particles) take a look at the painted surface with a magnifying glass after a year of two of outdoor exposure. In my case a majority of the particles had three miniscule cracks radiating from their tips, where they were beginning to protrude through the tough System 3 LPU. The LPU was uncompromised in adjacent smooth areas.

I'm sure results vary, butI decided I wouldn't use sharp particles again.

Dave Wright

pipefitter
10-13-2005, 01:51 AM
The awlgrip griptex particles aren't sharp like sand but it has the look of that effect.From the man that does our fibreglass work,he does a once over with sandpaper befor the final coat to knock down any proud texture particles.Just a wipe of the sandpaper over the surface will find any dislodged particles or any that may have gotten stacked.There is a sample of nidacore from a cabo style hardtop that shows the texture and was what made me decide to get the griptex.With any luck and some good weather,I should have the boat completed this weekend.Also,this isn't an area that will be walked on,it is more for looks.The main decks inside the boat has interdeck paint with the fine particles.

[ 10-13-2005, 02:55 AM: Message edited by: pipefitter ]

sdowney717
10-13-2005, 05:38 AM
Durabak
soft antiskid with raised rubber granules
It is a polyurethane coating and comes in many bright colors. Durable and wont scrape off under pressure.
http://www.nonslipcoating.com/
Even comes in a smooth version

Kim Whitmyre
10-13-2005, 06:28 PM
Went down to wash the dirt off and took shots of the nonskid (the Interlux product mention above) on the forward beam:

Perpendicular to the sun

http://members.dslextreme.com/users/kwhitmyre/images/nonskid1.jpg

Same area, looking away from the sun

http://members.dslextreme.com/users/kwhitmyre/images/nonskid2.jpg

The late afternoon sun emphasizes the texture, but just walking by it's not very noticeable.

Kim

FGsimmons
05-10-2006, 10:06 AM
Sorry to drag up an old post, but thought it was a good place for it. I bought my non-skid this morning @ Fiberglass Coatings in St. Petersburg, FL. I went with a product called Grip-X, a small glass sphere. They suspend in liquid being applied. Has anyone used a similar product?

I have used salt and sand before, but never a product like this. It was only like $4.50 a qt. Thought that was a great price - do you think this is similar (or the same thing) as the glass beads used as filler?

pipefitter
05-10-2006, 09:47 PM
I used Grip-tex by awlgrip Looks identical to sand. I think it is crushed lexan or something.It works very well and does suspend in paint but you still have to keep it mixed as you are using it. I used the salt shaker method on my sheer decks and it was mixed with the paint on the inner decks.

Hard to see the granule size here but it is about like light sand used in concrete.

http://home.earthlink.net/~tigmaster41/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/img_2584ns.jpg

It comes in fine,medium and coarse and I chose the medium for the sheer deck and the fine for the interior. This on the advice of our fibreglass parts supplier (Mangrove) of St. Pete. He uses the medium on the Cabo style tower roofs. Looks better up close.

The medium looks like the closeups of the blue stripes in Wild Wassa's posts above. I don't know if it is the same as in the filler but I remember wondering about that when I was researching.

capt jake
05-11-2006, 08:14 AM
Maybe not the 'traditional' non-skid but Devlin has a unique approach. Quality paint (Awlgrip) applied at a very low pressure. This creates a very rough orange peel. In multiple layers (you can change the colors as you go for a nice color variation) it ends up looking like spatter trunk paint. Very durable and even using a high gloss paint, you don't get sunshine reflecting in your eyes. Personally, I like the look.

FGsimmons
05-11-2006, 09:31 AM
I used Grip-tex by awlgrip Looks identical to sand. I think it is crushed lexan or something.It works very well and does suspend in paint but you still have to keep it mixed as you are using it. I used the salt shaker method on my sheer decks and it was mixed with the paint on the inner decks.

Hard to see the granule size here but it is about like light sand used in concrete.



It comes in fine,medium and coarse and I chose the medium for the sheer deck and the fine for the interior. This on the advice of our fibreglass parts supplier (Mangrove) of St. Pete. He uses the medium on the Cabo style tower roofs. Looks better up close.

The medium looks like the closeups of the blue stripes in Wild Wassa's
posts above. I don't know if it is the same as in the filler but I remember wondering about that when I was researching.

Pipe - What masking tech did you use? What is a 'wet line'? I usually maskoff and pull the tape when it's still a little tacky. Is this the same thing?

I like the effect on your boat, I hope this 'grip-x' will look similar. I have to play with the Devilbiss to get the right concentration.

pipefitter
05-11-2006, 09:59 AM
Capt Jake, I like the orange peel look too. They also do that with gel coat sprayed through a hopper on FRP boats and I am thinking they added talc to it to make it the right consitency to hold the shape. I considered doing so on mine(not gel coat) and I think it looks a little nicer than the sand when using the glossy finish.

FGSimmonns,
That is what wet line is. I used fine line tape and then cut radiuses in the tape patterns with a new single edge razor blade. I spiled a pencil line and then followed that carefully with the tape.I am sure you will find the gripx to be the same as what I mentioned.First time,I taped it off and the griptex didnt come on time and I had to remove the first taping because it was beginning to get baked on. The guy from Mangrove sprays his texture as well and it comes out nice. I wanted to put mine on a little lighter but the wind picked up and had added extra to where I had already been so I was committed to do the rest that way. Still came out pretty nice.

FGsimmons
05-11-2006, 03:20 PM
FGSimmonns,
That is what wet line is. I used fine line tape and then cut radiuses in the tape patterns with a new single edge razor blade. I spiled a pencil line and then followed that carefully with the tape.I am sure you will find the gripx to be the same as what I mentioned.First time,I taped it off and the griptex didnt come on time and I had to remove the first taping because it was beginning to get baked on. The guy from Mangrove sprays his texture as well and it comes out nice. I wanted to put mine on a little lighter but the wind picked up and had added extra to where I had already been so I was committed to do the rest that way. Still came out pretty nice.

Great! As always thanks for the info!