Porch and Deck Paint for decks

[joenadeau]

I know this has been discussed, but what is the current opinion on using a good quality - Pratt and Lambert- paint on a cedar plank deck? I sanded and cleaned the deck and refilled the seams with SikaFlex 240. The wood is cedar and was twice previously painted. How will this paint (or any paint) handle the movement of the planks due to working and especially expansion and contraction of the joints. I used InterLux one part polyurethane on the hull 4 years ago and it still looks great with the exception of the seams which have all cracked - no big deal unless you are close.

Primary motivation here is cost. P&L pain is the most expensive house paint but is still only $35 gallon.

Next question is Latex or Oil.

Thanks, Joe

[Bob Cleek]

Pratt and Lambert is good HOUSE paint. I can't imagine why you'd burden yourself with this "problem" for the sake of thirty bucks. Good quality marine paint is made for the purpose. The Chemist, bless his soul, could tell you why, but just take it on faith. I know it's true from my own experience, but can't tell you the chemistry of exactly why. Don't matter.

How much paint are you going to use, anyway? Maybe a couple of quarts? So you pay thirty bucks for decent Z Spar, Interlux, or, if you really want the best, Kirby's. Sure, you could get a gallon of house paint for $35, but that's not what you need. You wouldn't paint your car with house paint, would you? It's false economy to worry about saving chump change on materials... your labor is worth far more than that. If it hurts to pay the extra bucks, just remember how much work you put into prepping the surface...

BTW, don't expect your paint to stick too well to the Sikaflex. Whether it will crack or not really depends on how much your deck moves. Ever consider oiling it? Different look, but maybe easier to maintain and keep bristol fashion.

[Pelican]

If you have a Lowes close by check out a paint they have called "Professionals Choice". Made by Valspar. Valspar rep told a friends of mine it is the same as their marine topside enamel. Mix some antiskid compound in and it works great on decks.

[Scott Rosen]

I used to be a big fan of Pratt and Lambert. No more. I bought some of their "best quality" oil based enamel for some stuff around the house and I've been extremely disappointed with it. Apparently they changed their formula a few years ago to comply with federal clean air regulations. Those changes ruined the paint.

Here's the problem. The paint is extremely soft, even after curing for several months. It has virtually no abrasion resistance. You could never use it on a deck. It was supposed to be high gloss, but it shows a semi-gloss sheen with patches of moderate gloss.

Maybe P&L makes a harder and more durable paint spefically for decks and other high abrasion areas, but the stuff I used stunk.

[ 05-29-2002, 02:26 PM: Message edited by: Scott Rosen ]

[joenadeau]

Bob: I was looking for SPECIFIC reasons, it doesn't sound like you have any. I have not read anything from the chemist spelling this out. The dollars are more a matter of principle than affordability.

[John of Phoenix]

Here ya go Joe. I'm sure Dave is too modest to post this himself, but it's worked very well on my little skiff and lots of other boats as well, I'm sure.

Latex Paint for Boats (http://home.att.net/~DaveCarnell/articles.html#A1)

BTW Behr's "Charleston Belle" looks very nice with mahagony. That said, it's Kirby for my next one, but latex will work fine. (Assuming a good prep.)

[bugeye]

hi,
I'm not familiar with P&L, but I have used Benjamin Moore Porch& floor enamel with good results.It's quite tough, nice to use, cheap, and is available in some nice colors off the shelf. The boats that I deal with get alot of foot traffic, but they do get painted every year. I figure that good exterior house paint should need to be at least as durable as boat paint, since nobody would be willing to paint their house every year, like a boat, and lord knows that they are out in all weather.

[Todd Bradshaw]

On the other hand, I've got a couple old wooden window frames that I sanded down and painted with boat paint (Brightside) and they're holding up better than those with house paint, so who knows?

[Foster Price]

Hello Guys - I've followed these discussions for several years with the certain knowlwedge that my boat needed painting eventually. Now eventually has arrived !!

I have used some oil based paint on deck repairs and the mast in the past two years. The paint was given to me by a professional house painter who had "liberated" it so I don't really know what the quality is. It seemes to have held up well although not like a two-part polyurethane.

What I would be interested in is down-under (Aussie/Kiwi) comparative paint brands ie what is the best quality oil/latex here and is price a real determinant of quality down here ??

Cheers - Foster

[joenadeau]

When you think about it, a porch/deck on a house probably sees more severe service than the typical boat deck. Lots of foot traffic with hard soled shoes, work boots, high heels, dogs, dirt and gravel from yards and driveways, furniture being dragged around, weather, sun etc. A pleasure boat deck on the other hand will not see anything other than boat shoes or bare feet. Real dirt should be pretty rare. The only real difference would be the presence of salt water, and it's not like the deck gets a constant soaking of salt water - the most my deck sees is from my salt water wash down. A boat deck may get more constant UV due to a lack of shade but that is minimized by the amount of time the boat is in the water here in New England. The decks are both wood with the difference being that a boat deck is filled with seam compound which will move and be tougher for paint to adhere to.

I can't take it on faith that just because a product is labeled for marine use, that it is superior - remember that we are talking about deck paint here. Obviously you would not paint your car with house paint - it's a completely different application. Having worked in engineering both in industry and for a major boat builder (fiberglass-sorry), I am constantly amazed at the willingness to pay a premium for marine labeled products and services.

[lumberdude]

Joe, I sell valspar paints in my store in very large quantities to people painting walls and houses. I have never sold valspar paint to paint a boat.

I had this very same question about 2 months ago, so I called my tech people at valspar myself. They said that while 100% acrylic house paint is a very good product for houses, it would not be recommended for a below the waterline application. Above the waterline would be okay, but defenitely not below. Being a latex paint, they said that water will penetrate both the top coat and the latex primer coat.

Valspar has a specific marine division to their paint line which the mostly sell to manufacturing. I believe they told me that all of their marine products are a 2 part mix. If latex house paint was just as good for that application, then why would they have a seperate division and facilities for making a "marine" line?

I ended up not taking the chance. First off, if you are paying 35 bucks a gallon for house paint, you are getting ripped. The absolute best paints in other brands are a good 7 to 10 bucks less than that. I used Kirbies paint for two main reasons: 1) It's a long time proven company and product and 2) It's worth supporting the "little guy" in everything you buy rather than go to the "box" stores and perpetuate their deep pockets. Especially when they produce a higher quality product and provide personal outstanding service. When you add those things into the equation, the extra 10 or 20 dollars is absolutely worth the value of the product.

lumberdude

[brad9798]

I am certainly not an expert ... but what about "pool paint?"

The only reason I say this, is that we just painted the pool this spring (have to do so every 5-7 years). Pool paint is amazing- rubberized, only $50 per gallon, AND, the best part:

It is under water 24/7/365 for 5-7 years and never, ever comes off. Even with heat, cold, chlorine, people, etc.

Sure, the spreadability is not nearly as perfect as a fine topside paint- it looks a bit like some non-skid was added ... that's all.

Any opinions on that one? Seriously.

[Dave Hadfield]

Well I use it. I think I'd rather use Kirby's, but it's a pain getting it shipped up here. (Canada.)

I've used alkyd porch and floor enamel on my side decks and it worked fine. (That's putting it over a previous yacht paint that was only in minor disrepair.) The trouble is it's gloss. You don't want gloss for your decks -- too slippery. So I tried (shudder, heresy) Home Depot's new Low Lustre latex P and F enamel on my cockpit seats. It is definitely very flat, but also wears well. (A home mix of gloss and flat within the same paint types and colours might give a semi-gloss.)

It's difficult to apply because it dries too fast. It's hard to keep a wet edge. Either you wait for a cool cloudy day and keep the paint moving (perhaps 2 painters going, maybe one with roller) or use a lot of Flotrol, and then who knows what this does to the wear-properties of the paint? Still, it can be done with a good motion and a fine brush and looks just dandy.

I also used Home Hardware's best exterior latex on my topsides (to be clear, that's the side of the boat above the water line). I haven't had it on long enough to give a report on how it wears over time, but it's looked just fine right for the past 2 years. The fenders are a little hard on it, I suppose.

Drake is planked with cypress, which tends to shed paint anyway -- that's one of the reasons I hate to spend $30 a quart for Interlux when I can spend $30 a gallon.

I use Kirby's Bottle Green for trim, and it's a lovely paint. Not forever though. On the sheer strake it wears just like all paints do and needed a recoat after 2 years, though to be fair it was only one coat over brown, lightly sanded, before.

I also use house grade Cetol on my spars (with complete success), to make my heresy complete.

Good Luck, from an unrepentent sinner,

Dave

[joenadeau]

Thanks for the input. Again, the motivation for my question was twofold. I resent paying a premium for anything unless I have evidence that it's worth the money. Simply saying that it is a marine or boat paint does not automatically convince me that it is any better than a Latex or Oil based house paint. That's why I am looking for user's experiences rather than baseless opinions.

Secondly, as I was preparing to paint my decks, I started looking for a marine deck paint. I haven't seen any except for those products with non-skid built in. I would expect a deck paint to have different properties than a "hull" paint. Kirby advertises a deck paint on their web site but after questioning, they say it is the same paint they use for everything else.

Having said all this, I have ordered 2 quarts of Kirby's because they can supply the color I need (PETTIT french grey) in semi-gloss.

The whole discussion is largely academic and I do share the innate fear that "I better not take a chance".

[Bob Cleek]

Fact is, you can use any old paint you can get to stick on a boat. I often use grey Rustoleum enamel for bilges where finish isn't as critical and have even used white on textured decks and cabin tops with reasonable results. No, it doesn't last as long as quality marine enamel and, yes, I have to condition it with thinner and Penetrol. It is a quality high solids coating and is substantially cheaper than marine enamel. (This is the stuff they sell for painting metal lawn furniture.)

If you want to know the BEST paint on a wooden boat, I don't think there is any dispute among the real professionals. Kirby's if preferred by many not only because George Kirby III is a great guy and they are a great company, but also because it is a quality marine paint line that provides a distintive "quasi-gloss" finish, not too glossy, but just glossy enough for that perfect traditional finish. Where gloss level isn't so much of a factor, or availability of Kirby's is limited, others will use Interlux or Z Spar primarily. These can be flattened down by adding a bit of their sanding undercoat to the gloss topcoat enamel to approximate the "Kirby's look." Quality marine alkyd enamels are predicable to apply and have good gloss retention, flexibility compatible with wood surfaces, and high abrasion resistance. (Salt water is surprisingly abrasive.)

So, you CAN use anything you want, but if you aspire to a job that equals or exceeds what a yard turns out, you have to use professional quality materials. Simple as that.

If you are doing a half-assed prep job, with dings and divots all over the place, and you are honest enough to admit you can't lay down a finish coat without dirt, grime, curtains and runs all over the thing, then buy the cheapest paint you can find and put it on with a mop. It will cover and protect the wood, if that is all you care about. (And there are justifiable reasons why you may be doing this... rough workboats, etc.) If, on the other hand, you have taken care to try for a "yacht finish" by sanding and filling your surfaces and making sure they are dust free, you are wasting that hard work if you slap some K-Mart crap paint on it.

[Bill Perkins]

Ah yes , Pettit French Grey .That's what I think lookes best inside small open boats . I've still got a partial gallon of their ShipenDeck in the basement ; I'm going to use it too .

[Donn]

Oh my God! I can't believe it. I also use grey Rustoleum in my bilges...straight-up, from a spray can. Cleek...maybe you aren't so weird after all. :D

[bainbridgeisland]

Here is one experience with latex paint. I have commuted to work the last few years by boat. We have fir plywood floorboards painted with latex paint. Since this is the Pacific Northwest, it is usually damp here. We have three people that commute 5 days a week for 9 months out of the year.

For the past 3 years, I have used flat exterior paint from our local Coast-to-Coast hardware store. It has not stood up well. We used one coat of primer followed by 2 coats of finish paint. We wear through the paint in spots in about 3 months. Last year I put 4 coats of paint in the high wear areas but we still wore through it in about 3 months. Some of the paint flakes off as well. When the local otters use the boat, their droppings stain the paint. Lastly, even with the saltwater, we have had a mildew problem only where this paint is used. Last year I tried some of the anti-mildew additive available for this paint. It didn't seem to help.

This use is much more severe than most boats. Still, I don't think this particular paint was the right stuff to use. I have used "Porch Paint" on other boats with good results. But the other boats did not have severe use.

[Scott Rosen]

The one-part water-based paints don't have great adhesion and don't have good abrasion resistance. They also have very poor water resistance. If, given those factors, you think it's the right paint, then go ahead and use it. The qualities of the paint suggest the acceptable uses. A cold-molded hull that you plan to paint every year or so and that won't get abraded would be one possible use. I wouldn't use the stuff on a deck. Frankly, I wouldn't use the stuff on a boat.

Beware of false economy. I have a 30 foot sailboat. It takes one quart of Kirby's gloss white with a little Penatrol to give me a one-coat paint job. That one quart and the Penatrol costs less than $20. It would take a gallon or more of waterbased paint to do the hull, and a gallon of waterbased paint costs more than a quart of Kirby's.

[Jon Agne]

I love reading these posts about paint.

You will not be disappointed in your purchase of Kirby paints. I've tried all of the enamels (except perhaps Gloucester, which you can't get around here any more), and while each of them has a particular aspect which I like, they all also have aspects I don't like such as being finicky to apply in different weather conditions, too glossy, brittleness after one season, poor adhesion, etc., etc. In every area that I think is important in a marine paint, (ease of application and flow, depth of color, abrasion resistance, adhesion, and overall "look") Kirby's is at the top of the list.

This is all for a couple of bucks more.....if you're smart, buy by the gallon (roughly the cost of 3 quarts) and store the leftover in the quart cans from the local paint or hardware store.

This year I'm making the jump and putting my whole boat in Kirby paints. My cockpit was almost totally disassembled this winter, so as long as the heat gun and torch are out, I'm taking off about 15 layers of "other" paint in various places and I just placed the order on Friday with George. BTW, he will mix any color you want, such as Bristol Beige (increasingly hard to find in plain yacht enamel)or Spar Buff, if your color is not on the following chart:

http://www.kirbypaint.com/products/color_chart.html

As far as bottom paints, I'll leave that discussion to Bob C. I have just enough green Gloucester Sea Jacket #541 to do one more season, and then I'll probably switch to one of those new ablative paints, like Horizons, which the Concordia guys around here are singing praises about.

[AndyFarquhar]

I used some oil house deck paint that was laying around five years ago on the inside of my wooden canoe hull. It's still there after heavy use, salt, sand, children, dogs, mussels, clams et al.

Regards

Andy Farquhar

[Wild Wassa]

What's needed is an internally plasticised, high build (perhaps), high solid, acrylic co-polimer, nowdays. Ask your manufacturer or paint shop, which one is it? Enamel has high levels of elasticity early in it's life, only. Thinning enamel reduces it's elasticity and shortens the useful life, as a top coat, unless you increase the binder. We all know how brittle enamel is when it's old but a fresh coat will regenerate it.

The words Ultra Violet and abrasion resistant should be well blazened on the can. There is nothing worse than paint that goes chalky in the sun. I'm not talking years but months, after the wrong selection.

If you are incorporating an anti skid (additive) buy a paint with it already 'IN' the paint and just roll on, Skippers. If the proprietry colours are not what you are after, get the white tinted.

I have not mentioned the deck oils because Joenadeau has two (stable?) coats of paint 'already' on the deck.

Warren.

ps, Buying all paints from a trade painter's outlet, is cheaper. Buying the same paint from 'marine specialists', this is up to you. I dispute "adding the word 'Marine' to a paint adds to the cost", (that I have often read in the postings).

pps, Modern day chemists 'try to' userp 400 years of well proven techniques. One loose atom is a problem to a chemist. What makes Enamel/oil paint special is increasing the binder. Modern plastics, one loose, all loose.

[ 06-03-2002, 01:39 PM: Message edited by: Wild Wassa ]