PDA

View Full Version : Want a guitar



wbrent
12-08-2007, 11:43 AM
I'm going electric. I've settled on a Fender stratocaster but I don't know enough about them to make an informed choice. Here's what I do know. I want an American made. Probably buy it off ebay and I want to pay less than a thousand. What should I be looking for? Models, materials, bells, whistles, and year of make?

P.I. Stazzer-Newt
12-08-2007, 12:03 PM
I'm going electric. I've settled on a Fender stratocaster but I don't know enough about them to make an informed choice. Here's what I do know. I want an American made. Probably buy it off ebay and I want to pay less than a thousand. What should I be looking for? Models, materials, bells, whistles, and year of make?

Buggar me that's a brave post.

Basics - the man wants a USA built strat and has a budget of $1000 - and is prepared to buy sight-unseen in a market where sharks are known to operate..... And ask advice from passers-by in the street.

Serious advice: If you have to ask, STAY AWAY FROM EBAY - that's for people who are prepared to gamble and for people who know what they are doing - if you don't match either of these criteria you are the patsy in the poker game.
Get out and handle some real live intruments, get to know what you want, what you like and what (for you) represents value.
I have played strats from early 60s to 2005 - and I reckon the best were the mid 80s japanese built jobs - but thats a personal opinion.

What is now going to happen is that everyone and his brother will chip in with assorted advice such as:

1: Try a variax
2: For only $1500 you could....
3: Strats are crap - try a Guild.
4: The americans forgot how to build anything in 1958 - get a '57.
4a: ES175 with P90s.

Memphis Mike
12-08-2007, 12:13 PM
"All depends on the thickness of your wallet, and your tastes. For what it's worth, the 'Squier'-branded Strats, marketed by Fender, are a terrific value: for less than $200, they're well made and sound pretty good. I have a Telecaster variant with the 'Squier' brand, imported by Fender, and I think it's a great value... I paid $129."

To each his own. After you've played a REAL Strat those Squires are nothing but junk.

I play every day and have a really nice Strat. It's Fender's "Lone Star" version with two Texas Special pickups and a Seymore Duncan humbucker.

What I've found with playing it is you are rather limited tone wise. No matter what FX you use, a Strat still sounds like a Strat. Although I love that guitar and it's still one of my favorites, I'm starting to move away from it.

The Gibsons have tone controls that actually work and I've found I can get a multitude of different sounds from my ES 335. I'm leaning toward a Les Paul as my next guitar.

Before you buy, take careful consideration of what type of music you will be playing. The Strat is a great Blues guitar. Not so much with Rock and Roll. That's just my opinion but whatever you decide, don't buy a cheap knock off. You will be disappointed in the end and only want the real thing.

Lew Barrett
12-08-2007, 12:23 PM
Why not buy locally? No real reason not to. You can buy a brand new guitar for yor money, American made, off the peg at any local store. My own opinion, which is but one, is that for a player, it's hard to go wrong with a new American Strat. It's new; yours to use and play and put the patina on. They are buiding them just fine.
On the other hand, if you're after something vintage, just be patient and keep looking locally through you know....the usual sources. AT least you hold and play your Ax. Avoid the CBS stuff. Nobody wants it.
Psst: nobody owns one. You get your Strat, you look for you Les Paul, you later get your Tele, or whatever. It's another "thing." Hey Mike.....he said "Strat."

Memphis Mike
12-08-2007, 12:29 PM
Yep, I would never buy a guitar I couldn't play first. Don't buy anything off of Ebay. Go to a music store.

The Guitar Center is offering some great values this time of year. They have a solid mahogany Les Paul Studio I've been looking at. Brand new for 800 dollars.

Todd Bradshaw
12-08-2007, 12:43 PM
The first thing I'd do is go play some if there are any stores in your area. Since strats these days have become more of a "category" than a specific model, there are lots of options to choose from, even among the ones that say Fender on the headstock. Some will just feel better than others, some will have maple fingerboards, others rosewood and there are a whole bunch of different pickups being stuck in them by the factory.

If you're handy with tools (mostly a screw driver) another option might be to build your own custom strat from Warmoth's Fender-licensed parts. They're currently listing 607 different strat bodies in all kinds of woods, both finished and unvarnished and 567 different strat necks. It's kind of fun to go through them and mix and match to see what you can come up with. The quality of their parts is as good as just about anything that comes out of Fender though it would be a good idea to plan on having the guitar professionally set-up by a local luthier once you've assembled everything. That would probably run an extra $50 or so. It's just another possible option, but for folks who are into cool wooden stuff, there are always some very nice things to check out there and for under $1,000 you can put together one hell of a gorgeous Strat or Tele, just the way you like it.

http://www.warmoth.com/

look in the "showcase" menu up top for bodies and necks

I buy and sell guitars and amps all the time on eBay and have found most private sellers with all positive feedback to be quite decent to deal with. Dealers seem to be either great guys or real turkeys. On the other hand, I know exactly what I want and what it's worth before doing any bidding and there is always still some risk of getting burned, so you have to be careful.

Memphis Mike
12-08-2007, 12:43 PM
This is my Strat. The humbucker at the bridge fattens up the tone. The "Lone Star' is otherwise known as a fat Strat.


http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b7cf28b3127ccebff4392f1b1800000035108AcsWbRi0aNU

Bruce Taylor
12-08-2007, 01:18 PM
Get this:

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/517SBIbQ9zL._AA240_.jpg

http://www.amazon.com/Fender-Stratocaster-Handbook-Maintain-Troubleshoot/dp/0760329834

Balmer knows these instruments as well as anyone (and certainly a lot better than anyone around here :D ). Of particular interest are his "Specific Case Studies." He takes a very close, detailed look at various Strats, domestic and imported, analyzing design features, quality of components and factory setup. He even surveys two different Squiers (one Chinese, the other Indonesian).

As Mike says, don't buy anything you haven't had your hands on. And whatever you choose, get it properly set up. A well set up Squier will give you far more pleasure than any badly set up Strat.

Lew Barrett
12-08-2007, 01:59 PM
Here's the deal with store buying. there is usually a store in every major area (frequently three) that can compete with GC. GC's fine, but what they won't usually offer you is a good setup, like Bruce mentioned. So if you find two equal guitars or are having a tough time making a choice, dicker with the local shop and ASK FIRST if they will work on setting it up with you. This is worth something.
A good store will work with you. They will even get close or try to match mail-order prices. Don't expect them to meet mail order every time, because you have to remember; they will provide a service that mail order can't, but often enough, you'll find little or no difference if the store is moving some tonnage. This is especially important with an instrument, less so with a pedal.
My own opinion: a good American Tele, Les Paul or Strat is a no brainer can't lose proposition for a person going in. If you keep it, great. If you sell it, everybody knows what it is and it will have a certain value. Get one that pleases you because in the end, that's all that matters. I can't see how you can go wrong if you read and do a bit of homework and play a lot of guitars. Hey....they keep making them. Don't let anybody talk you into how special any particular new one is and that it's worth extra because it's "special" It will be special once it's yours. Sure, there are differences, but you know....CNC machines, wave soldering, automatic insertion, surface mount electronics, solid body, so the hunt's part of the game. Just as each one is unique, there are a gazillion of them.

boylesboats
12-08-2007, 07:42 PM
I'm going electric. I've settled on a Fender stratocaster but I don't know enough about them to make an informed choice. Here's what I do know. I want an American made. Probably buy it off ebay and I want to pay less than a thousand. What should I be looking for? Models, materials, bells, whistles, and year of make?

If you're first time buyer of Fender... May I be at your service?
I am a Fender crazed owner of two stratocasters..
http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p182/boylesboats/LarrysStandardStrat.jpg
http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p182/boylesboats/LarrysCustomRoadhouseStrat.jpg

The black one my modified toy.. With Texas Special pick-ups like the ones SVR used..
I would recommended visiting your local dealer, rather than fooling around with ones on/from ebay.. I am serious, it ain't worth the bargain from ebay, trust me.. That black one came from ebay.. It was a mess.. The seller wasn't sure.. I had to locate parts for the Floyld Rose Tremolo Unit, the pickguard had a nasty (I could not identify) glob on it, badly dinged up body..
After spending over $300 bucks on parts, pickups, and the pick guard.. total price worth $1700..
And that Blue Agave above is a Standard Strat (Mexico).. It is a very sweet playing gem.. I bought it "NEW" from Fender dealer for $379.00 five years ago, with a limited lifetime warranty..
The best starter for first time strat buyer is "American Standard" you can pick one up less than $1000.00.... Here is a link below for pricing...
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/navigation/fender-guitars-music-gear-apparel-solid-body-electric-guitars?N=100001+306241+200984
Be smart, shop wisely...

Lew Barrett
12-08-2007, 07:53 PM
Use the mailorder pricing to educate yourself and then select at leisure from a good dealer locally. Never be afraid to bargain in a music store. They are way used to it. They deal with musicians.:rolleyes: That is the way to do it. Only way to do it. But know when you're being silly. They can't give it away, and they can't sell it any cheaper than the big guys do. Not that you'd be silly!:D

Bob (oh, THAT Bob)
12-08-2007, 08:59 PM
I agree with all of the above; lots of fraud on ebay. Local is good if your town is big enough to have sufficient supply.

I can't really comment on the electronics or sound of the electrics as I am not a player or builder of those. However I have messed about quite a bit with hollow bodies, and some things overlap:

Rigidity of the neck/body juncture is critical, both for good sound, and durability. Through-neck construction (one-piece neck and body), I think, is best. There is not an option for adjusting the neck at the juncture, but you really don't need to unless something comes loose, which in this case it won't. Small bends in the neck should be taken care of via the truss rod (and I greatly advocate a double truss rod that applies pure bending rather than single rods which try to crush the neck longitudinally as they take up tension). On the other hand, a good dovetail and even screwed neck/body connections have been used for decades with success, so don't let that be the only criteria, else you will rule out most of the market. I'm just telling you my preference.

The choice of neck wood is not just about sound, but more so regarding stability, i.e., resistance to warping. Nothing is more important on a neck. A good neck, in my judgement is quarter-sawn, i.e., the grain is 90 degrees to the fingerboard, not flat sawn which looks nicer but is less stable (like a 'Strat, because they usually (but not always) have no rosewood or ebony fingerboard on top, which also means they lacquer the fingerboard to prevent discoloration of the light maple, a surface I feel is inferior to a dense hardwood like ebony). A quarter-sawn mahogany neck with an ebony fingerboard has been the standard on top quality acoustic guitars for a hundred years. Mahogany is strong and stable, yet relatively lightweight for those qualities. Ebony is hard and wears well, and beautiful. Rosewood a close second. (I have also seen phenolic used when there was a shortage of ebony in the 70s, very hard and stable, very slick feel ("fast") and even had grain to it.) Maple like fender uses is OK, but I'd sure like to see it quarter-sawn.

Neck width is a biggie. I prefer a width at the nut (near headstock) just a skosh wider than most electrics and flattops, but not as wide as a classical. You should also check out options there before you buy. Not sure if there are as many options on an electric due to the need for the pickups to line up with the strings. Same goes for fret curvature, 'Strats have just a bit much curve for me, though I do like a touch of curve and not flat.

If you are not already knowledgeable, learn how to check a neck for warpage and proper rake. I know this sounds awful basic, but I have seen folks fail to check this before buying an expensive guitar and only discover it later because they seem hard to play.

I have heard that 'Strats are comfortable to play due to contouring of the body on the back side. This, and the total weight and balance of the 'axe, are also considerations.

As far as the electronics, you'll need advice from others. (As well as all of the above, for all I know, none of it applies to solid bodies. I'm waiting to be trashed.)

I know the above sounds like I am trashing the 'Strat, but not really, there is a lot there to like, but sometimes with other manufacturers or your own custom build, you can keep the best points of the design and improve on others.

Take time, sample lots of different things, take the time to learn, and shop around. You are in a buyers market. Have patience and the willingness to take the time to learn, and that will save you money and yield you a better guitar.

One last note. Decades ago, you could go to a guitar building school, and for the cost of the course, walk out with a guitar that (on your first try) was superior to production guitars, at least for an acoustic, and worth far more than the cost of tuition. (Due to the length of the course, there was often time to build a solid body in the spare time between building an acoustic, they are an order of magnitude simper to build, even from scratch.) This is an option, depending on whether you are working and your time is worth less than the money. Starting point would be the Guild of American Luthiers and find a school. Or, you can buy parts as noted above and just need to fit and finish them. You might be surprised at what a rookie like yourself is capable of doing (under proper tutelage), with just a bit more time taken to properly hand fit things. Then again, this violates what economists refer to as "incomplete specialization", i.e., it is more efficient to work at your chosen profession and make the money to buy a guitar built by a professional guitar builder. Just like building a wooden boat yourself makes no sense. :D

mdh
12-08-2007, 09:40 PM
There are so many variations of Strats made, that I too, would recommend buying after you've played it. First off, the transparent finishes(natural, sunburst, etc) have the better looking wood. A lot of "Black Beauty"s were built out of multiple scrap pieces of wood and painted nice shiny black. Next, I'd stick with 3 single coil pickups. That's the only way you're going to get those true strat sounds. If you want a tremolo, go with the fender design. My personal preference would be the hard tail, if I want a string to bend, I'll bend it. Next, grab hold of the neck. They made a bunch of variations of neck shapes. I love the vintage smaller radius and V shape, but the flatter radius and thin C shapes play faster. Rosewood fingerboard is supposed to be warmer sound, maple brighter. Keep in mind, those guitars you here on the radio have often been through major rework to tweek them to the players specs. A lot of guitars hanging on the racks in the store are strung with 9's and play real easy, while guys like Stevie Ray Vaughn and Vince Gill played live with 14's. Hope this helps. Good Luck

boylesboats
12-08-2007, 11:11 PM
And I may add... Fender have many options for Custom Shop Strat, like radius of fretboard, type of wood for fingerboard, type of tailpiece, pick-ups, tone controls (mid booster), neck angle..

Lets not to confuse this fella gang... He wanted a strat... So let himself choose what fits him... He ain't gonna makes any mistake..

Go to this links, they even have sound byte of each models of strat
http://www.fender.com/products//search.php?section=guitars&cat=stratocaster
Be sure to protect your keyboard, I swear you'll drools....:D

wbrent
12-09-2007, 04:03 PM
Ok. Some helpful advice here. I guess I'll take the time to travel around and play several instuments before I buy. I'll be looking at amps at the same time. I was quite taken with the Roland Cube amp. Quite compact with several different options available. Fender had a cool one too that had built in music tracts that you could play along to. Great for practice I think.

Lew Barrett
12-09-2007, 04:35 PM
Amps: If you're not popping for your true love amp, just buy that little practice puppy and know that you will have to go shopping again before the system is complete. The amp is the other part of the system, and as far as sound is concerned, it's the other partner. You can easily spend as much on the amp as the instrument, and here's a case where going tubes makes all the difference. Even more to consider.
A nice, simple, high quality tube combo amp would be a good thing for a home player.

Bruce Taylor
12-09-2007, 04:39 PM
I was quite taken with the Roland Cube amp.

I have one, and like it a lot. Great little practice amp.

Memphis Mike
12-09-2007, 04:56 PM
The bottom amp in the picture I posted above doesn't look like much but I'm here to tell you, it's a ball buster.

It's Fenders all tube Rock Pro 1000. It has a clean channel and two different overdrive channels. At 100 watts output through one twelve inch speaker, it's loud as hell and quite capable of playing any night club gig.

When my band practices, I have to keep it turned down because it's the loudest amp we have and will drown out everyone else.:eek::D

The smaller amp on top is Fenders 25 watt Frontman. You could play a small gig with it as long as it was miked.

There's nothing quite like the warm tube driven sound you get with a Fender.

I may play different guitars but will probably always stick with a Fender amp.

brad9798
12-09-2007, 06:33 PM
Telecasters came out in the early 1950s ... Leo Fender from Fullerton, California ... These came out right about the time of the Gibson 'Les Paul' model in '52 or '53, IIRC.

Strats came out in the later fifties ... '58 or so ...

Fender sold out around 1965 ...

Honestly, the Strats had different a variable pickups and a the double cut-out design ... versus the rounded to of the Teles.

It's nice to want to buy American ... but the ones made in Mexico are 100% the guitars as the ones made here ... in fact, many are better. Don't be fooled by where it is made.

Many, MANY 1960's-1970's Fenders were victims of cost-cutting production. I.e 3-bolt rather than 4-bolt neck construction which has not helped their playability or collectability.

This is the identical amp that I have ... although mine is older and in MUCH cleaner cosmetic shape! This is now at $810 in bidding!

http://i1.ebayimg.com/07/i/000/c7/a4/444c_12.JPG

For most usages, a nice Mesa Boogie has great sound and a nice small package!!!

Memphis Mike
12-09-2007, 06:47 PM
That is one ratty ass lookin amp!

Bruce Taylor
12-09-2007, 06:52 PM
It's nice to want to buy American ... but the ones made in Mexico are 100% the guitars as the ones made here ... in fact, many are better. Don't be fooled by where it is made.


Mine is a Mexican Strat (looks identical to Larry's powder blue baby posted above) and if there's anything wrong with it, I sure can't find it. I don't know how much set-up work the retailer did (the guitar was a gift from SWMBO), but by the time I got it this thing was flawless.

On the other hand, the Mexican Fat Strat surveyed in Balmer's book (see above) gets comments like this:

"The chrome is flaking form the bridge saddles and bubbling at the locking nut. The set-up is generally very crude, with a distinct concave bow to the neck. Also the strap buttons are very loose. These are all correctable faults but sad to see in a Fender instrument. Leo would have been disappointed." p. 119

Memphis Mike
12-09-2007, 07:16 PM
Gibson seems to do a pretty good job with their knock off guitars. This is the newest addition to my collection. It's an Epiphone EJ 200. I wanted an acoustic with some punch and it's got it. It has a nice bellsy sound also.

http://cachepe.zzounds.com/media/fit,400by400/quality,85/brand,zzounds/EJ-200-VS-495703d427d86a96c88e68edebe8565e.jpg

The action on it is a little tough but I'm going to take it in and get it adjusted and have a pickup put in it.

brad9798
12-09-2007, 07:36 PM
Agreed, Bruce!

Memphis ... that is ratty looking ... mine looks new ... and THAT ratty lookin am is up to over $800 bucks at auction ... glad my dad bought his for about 50 bucks back in the day!

Memphis Mike
12-09-2007, 07:42 PM
It could be cleaned up....put some new grill cloth on it.:cool:

brad9798
12-09-2007, 07:45 PM
This is what is in my den ... exactly!

http://www.elderly.com/vintage/items/40U-4201.htm

A wonderful piece of history! FFFFAT sound ... but can also be played to sound like the the teles and strats ...

Mono was the way to go ...

I would lose my life prior to giving this up ... at any cost ... well, almost any! I've thought about, in perhaps 20 more years, trading it for a boat in the 75,000 range ... the boat name would be ES355 ... VERY, VERY few folks would ever get that name! :D

brad9798
12-09-2007, 07:47 PM
this is guitar #2 in the collection ...

http://www.elderly.com/vintage/names/gibson-es-335tdc-%281965%29--40U-4057.htm

A GREAT guitar, but a DISTANT second in many ways ... the most of which are emotional! :)

brad9798
12-09-2007, 08:00 PM
#3 is a 1995 Mexican Telecaster ... oops, we've dropped down to just 5-600 on that one ... damned Mexican production! JUST kidding. It is a great piece ... every bit as solid at the US models!

brad9798
12-09-2007, 08:02 PM
#4 is Ovation Legend ... neat little 1970's vintage acoustic electric ... the rounded back!

Lew Barrett
12-09-2007, 08:28 PM
Buy the American guitar as you have the budget. The Mexican guitars do play quite well, but the American guitars will appreciate. Take it from a guy in the business.

Hey Brad, Mike, do your amps have their JBL K series in 'em?

brad9798
12-09-2007, 09:11 PM
Lew, regardless of build quality, you are correct- the US models will appreciate! For me it was a point of dimishing returns ... pay a ton now to break even in 15-20 years on appreciation, or get the same thing and enjoy if for 15-20 years and sell for what I paid!

Of all the anal knowledge I have, I will honestly have to admit a brain fart on the jbl question ... lemme check!!!!

brad9798
12-09-2007, 09:17 PM
Fender speakers ... original. Just checked. :)

boylesboats
12-09-2007, 09:28 PM
Mine is a Mexican Strat (looks identical to Larry's powder blue baby posted above) and if there's anything wrong with it, I sure can't find it. I don't know how much set-up work the retailer did (the guitar was a gift from SWMBO), but by the time I got it this thing was flawless.

On the other hand, the Mexican Fat Strat surveyed in Balmer's book (see above) gets comments like this:

"The chrome is flaking form the bridge saddles and bubbling at the locking nut. The set-up is generally very crude, with a distinct concave bow to the neck. Also the strap buttons are very loose. These are all correctable faults but sad to see in a Fender instrument. Leo would have been disappointed." p. 119

Yes the upper one is mexician made in Blue Agave, as standard as they comes... I played it a lot, and have no complaint, I use traditional .010 bullets on it.. Lube up the fret board "Fast Fret"... Unlike Squire Strats, I touched one and refuses to play a Squire because they are very poorly made, fret ends catches my hand is one fault I found on them..
Mexician made is about as close you can get as American Made, all the parts are interchangable..
My black one up above is fully customized by me, that black pearl pickguard is expensive $45.00 buck for that awesome pickguard
http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p182/boylesboats/LarrysCustomRoadhouseStratclose-up.jpg
This one have a nice gritty tone because I installed Texas Special pick-ups in it. I sold this guitar I no longer need it..
My desire is to get a hold of Jazzmaster

Memphis Mike
12-09-2007, 09:58 PM
"Hey Brad, Mike, do your amps have their JBL K series in 'em?"

Yep, Mine are Fender speakers also.

brad9798
12-10-2007, 01:34 AM
right on Memphis!!!!!!

Todd Bradshaw
12-10-2007, 04:09 AM
If I remember correctly, all the Fenders that had JBL's had the silver domes in them which you could see through the grille cloth like you can on this cabinet. I think they still had a Fender label on the back of them though.
http://webpages.charter.net/tbradshaw/Music%20stuff/Guitar%20Rebuilding/cab%20002.jpg

The last one I played through was a Dual Showman with twin 15's and that sucker was seriously loud. I know where there's one like it in good shape for about $1,100 that I'd love to own just for fun, but it might be a bit much in my office....

boylesboats
12-10-2007, 07:39 AM
"Hey Brad, Mike, do your amps have their JBL K series in 'em?"

Yep, Mine are Fender speakers also.

Hey Memphis,
my Stage 185 have a single stock Fender 12" speaker..

http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p182/boylesboats/stage185.jpg

Above photo of amp is for reference.. Mine have orginal red knobs.

I have searched far and wide to find some information on this amp.... All I know about this amp, it is early version of Stage 160.. It is rare, and great little amp for practice or small gigs.. It does belts out, rumbled my house, neighbors can hear me over three blocks away from inside their house. It got mid-boost, treble cut, overdrive, reverb, clean side, dirty side... All that sweet stuff, I am happy with it..
Stage 185 is no longer made... I been wanting Fender's "Evil Twin"...

P.I. Stazzer-Newt
12-10-2007, 08:16 AM
For domestic use there's quite a bit to be said for small - had a play with one of these - grand fun.
Tiny Terror
http://www.bassexchange.com/catalog/images/Orange_Tiny_Terror_amp.jpg (http://www.orangeamps.com/tinyterror)

boylesboats
12-10-2007, 08:22 AM
For domestic use there's quite a bit to be said for small - had a play with one of these - grand fun.
Tiny Terror
http://www.bassexchange.com/catalog/images/Orange_Tiny_Terror_amp.jpg (http://www.orangeamps.com/tinyterror)

Thank for the link to that... I have heard of those, but long forgotten about them..

I even thought about those little "Pignose" 7-100 amp...
http://www.pignoseamps.com/?disp=detail&id=253

Hear and watch a backyard demo on Pignose 7-100 with Ibanez Tubescreamer
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzkCXU15qx4&feature=related

P.I. Stazzer-Newt
12-10-2007, 08:34 AM
Thank for the link to that... I have heard of those, but long forgotten about them..

I even thought about those little "Pignose" 7-100 amp...
http://www.pignoseamps.com/?disp=detail&id=253

If you ever had to carry an Orange 4x12 up two flights of stairs you will not forget them - ever.

Pignoses are good fun too - and portable. Ten years ago I bought a Zoom 505 - crude, rough - but loads of fun - and last week the sprog bought a Behringer V-amp from Ebay, which I've yet to see but I expect that to be a good laugh too.

boylesboats
12-10-2007, 09:44 AM
If you ever had to carry an Orange 4x12 up two flights of stairs you will not forget them - ever.

oh boy:eek:... huffin' puffin' and swearin', I can see the picture:D... Any of those 4 X 12's cabinets ain't light, thats for sure... It bad enough to tote Stage 185 (above #39) in one hand, and two strats in the other hand, down the block... After I got there, I wasn't in the mood to play because my arms were hanging like a ape