Teak plywood for deck versus teak veneer???

[davef]

Greetings,

I am working on a 20' sailboat. The deck is currently covered with 1/4" marine plywood and I am looing to plank the deck with a thin layer of teak. I was planning on using the technique described in Gudgeon's book and epoxying strips of teak in place.

My question is whether I should use solid teak veneer or if I can use 1/8" teak plywood (which I already have).

I have two 4X8 sheets of 1/8" teak plywood. It appears to be a three ply plywood and the actual teak layer is quite thin (almost remarkably so). I would rip the 4X8 sheets into narrow strips and use these to plank the deck.

Alternately, the Gudgeon book describes creating your own teak veneer by sawing solid teak planks into strips roughly 3" x 1/8" x 8'. Of course the difference is that this would be solid teak as opposed to the plywood I already have.

Any advice? I've already got the plywood so it would be cheaper... but I'd rather not regret it in the future.

Please don't yell at me if I'm considering something stupid.

Thanks in advance.

Dave

[JimD]

Dave, the problem with using the plywood is that the top veneer of teak is only going to be a milimeter or so thick and will wear through in no time leaving the next layer exposed so you'll be left with exposed glue lines, innner layers of ply running in the wrong direction, etc. An eyesore at the very least. It will work if you fiberglass the plywood so the glass takes all the wear but obviously that's missing the whole point of having a naturally wearing teak planked deck.

[Buddy]

Right on with Jim's comments. I'm curious about the deck being only 1/4" ply on a 20' boat. Could be a light, narrow daysailor, but still, unless it has very substantial closely spaced beams, isn't it alarmingly flexible when stepped on? I would have thought 3/8" at a minimum, more likely 1/2". I would certainly go for 1/4" thick solid teak strips rather than 1/8". I would even consider an additional 1/4" ply layer going down first. Again, you haven't described this 20 footer, but if its 1200 pounds or better, it would sure handle a thicker deck than 1/4" .

[Stephen Hutchins]

Even if you drop a tool on that teak veneered plywood, the nick will go right through to the core. I recommend you go with 1/2" thick veneers over your 1/4" sub deck. There is a two part very thick epoxy based goop that you can trowel on available through Teak Decking Systems.

[davef]

To all,

Not sure if the following images will come through. I can never remember the exact sequence.

I am completely confused and need your help.

1) The deck seems fairly strong even at only 1/4" thick. The stringers and stations are closely spaced and I've bounced up and down a fair amount on the deck at 1/4" and is doesn't flex much at all. I was thinking that together with the 1/8" for the teak, this would equal 3/8" which was kind of a typical thickness for this size of boat.

2) I am now completely confused on how to get a nice looking teak deck on the boat. Quoting Gougeon pg 258 - "We have had excellent results with teak decks which have ended up measuring from 1/8" to 3/16" thick. We feel 3/16" is about maximum for this type of system and we advise against using any thicker strips"

Assuming that I'm not making a critical flaw in planking this with strips that are approximate 1/8" thick by 2 inches wide x 6' long, the question at hand is how I get said strips. Dummy me was thinking I would buy some teak board that as 1" x 6.5" x 6' and try to saw it into three pieces 1" x 2" x 6' I would then stand the pieces up on the 1" side and use my table saw to try to slice thin (1/8" thick) slices out of the 2" width. I know I end up throwing away about half the wood as kerf but I couldn't think of any other way to do it. I talked to someone at Advantage Lumber who basically told me I was nuts and would make a pile of sawdust. They gave me a quote to provide 1/8" thick by 2" wide by 6' long boards and it would basically cost me a fortune to plank the boat.

I do have access to a very nice table saw and a marginal band saw.

What is the typical way of obtaining such veneer???? Can this be done from board stock by mere mortals? If not, where does everyone go to buy teak that doesn't end up costing the entire budget for the boat???????

Thanks in advance...

Dave

Argh!!!!

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid79/p4956b0e66491a06b90873202a5bda802/fb0da979.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid79/pde573a7cd12d6337111ee09c2230c84c/fb0da962.jpg

http://http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid79/p5f98d161f340173a7b8513a69262042d/fb0da8fa.jpg

[davef]

Last picture didn't make it for some reason.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid79/p5f98d161f340173a7b8513a69262042d/fb0da8fa.jpg

[Bob Smalser]

Pretty boat.

The problem I see with 1/8" Teak is how quick you'll wear thru it with scrubbing, anchor dings, refinishing and the like. Suspect the Epoxy Brothers don't want anything thicker is that it'd expand seasonally with more force and may break the glue bond with the non-expanding plywood. So I'd want it 3/16th, or rip the strips narrower for less expansion stress.

The best way I know to get it is to rip 3/4" stock to width, resaw it freehand in your bandsaw, and thickness plane it to spec. And if your planer won't go that thin, make a base to mount your teak to from fiberboard or anything dead flat with a little contact cement sprayed on it for tack.

[ 09-18-2003, 07:02 PM: Message edited by: Bob Smalser ]

[davef]

The best way I know to get it is to rip 3/4" stock to width, resaw it freehand in your bandsaw, and thickness plane it to spec. And if your planer won't go that thin, make a base to mount your teak to from fiberboard or anything dead flat with a little contact cement sprayed on it for tack.

Bob,

Thanks for the note... can you help me with what you meany by "resaw it freehand". Surely you don't mean trying to take a 3/16" slice off a 2" high board guiding it through by hand???? Bob I can't saw a straight line with my circular saw, much less my band saw!!! Any tricks here?

Thanks so much!

Dave

[Bob Smalser]

That merely means don't try to use a fence.

Get a new blade...the widest one you can find...tension it taut and reset your rollers for the bigger blade...set 3/4" X 3" board on edge and eyeball dead center as you resaw it right down the middle...with a light bandsaw you'll have to squirrel the board around to keep the cut centered, and a fence will just get in the way....then clean the rough edge to desired thickness in the planer....for 3/16" finished stock you have a whole 1/8" tolerance on the cut....and you can put the rough side down if you don't get it all.

Easier to freehand it, giving yourself enuf starting thickness for tolerance, than to mess around with resaw fences....they only really work well with big bandsaws using real resaw blades.

The 5 3/4" wide stock for these 3/8" bookmatched panels was done freehand from 4/4 roughcut Red Oak...with a skinny blade, as I recall, too.

http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/2594265/31514203.jpg

[ 09-18-2003, 07:49 PM: Message edited by: Bob Smalser ]

[Stephen Hutchins]

How about buying 1" teak, resawing it in half, and gluing rough side down? Just a thought. It would reduce your labor and you wouldn't waste all that precious teak making 1/8" veneers.

[John Blazy]

Hey Dave,
Georgeous boat BTW, awesome hull . . .
Bob's dead one about the thickness req'mnt by gougeon bros - too thick and wood movement breaks the glue bond.
I would simply resaw by ripping with a thin kerf blade on the T-saw - I do it all the time and have gotten over the "boards-hidden-in-sawdust" issue a long time ago. Thin-kerf blades are only a little thicker than good bandsaw resaw blades anyway. I have used cheap 7-1/4" blades on my 10" saw just for this use - tho it would cut 1-3/4" deep.
Bandsaw-resawing has a lot of hidden problem potentials, like blade getting dull halfway through the immense number of planks you need, blade then wandering offline, and planing ALL the boards down to that lowest point, the abrasive nature of teak etc. All this and it will still take twice as long to cut through, and planing required.

T-saw resawing could very well not need planing, if cut well, and simply R/O sanding with 80 grit could be fine after gluing the planking.

I would install a sprung deck for sweet looks with a killer kingpost, and use 1/8" x 1-1/2" solid strips. Second to last issue of Epoxyworks Magazine highlights sprung decks.

[Art Read]

This may not be the answer you want to hear, but after "pondering" a similar dilema on my own project, I wound up buying one big hunk of teak from a local lumber supplier who offered the best quote AND offered to re-saw it to give me 2" x 5/16" x 20', quarter sawn "strips". My 20 foot deck, (about the same size as yours?) cost me between 6 and 7 hundred dollars to lay in the end. :eek: (Then again, I paid about 3 hundred just for the three sheets of Sapele plywood I used for the subdeck... And that doesn't count the goops and goos involved. Ain't nothing about building a boat that's "cheap"...)

I used a 5/16" ply subdeck and bedded the teak in 5200 with Sikaflex seam compound in the gaps. Still looks great a couple of years later and "seems" pretty solid. We'll know for for sure after twenty or so seasons of hard sailing...

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid19/pfb1d17f9e686744fe392f609a22b0984/fdc70af4.jpg

[Art Read]

(PS... To help put the expense in perspective, I saw a quote from a professional builder for a teak deck "option", as opposed to the standard dynel and epoxy over ply, done the same way as I did mine, veneer over ply bedded in 5200, on the same boat... $13,000! :eek: )

[ 09-19-2003, 11:42 AM: Message edited by: Art Read ]

[davef]

To all:

Thanks for the continued comments.

John,

You're suggestion is the way I'm leaning (use the table saw to cut think plans). I'm simply a bit more comfortable with the quality I can get from the table saw (kickbacks not withstanding). I think I'll go on a teak hunt and see what kind of largish boards I can scare up.

Can you tell me what a kingpost is??? What is a "sprung" deck? Is that were the planks curve, following the curvature of the shear line? If so, I agree that type of deck looks beautiful but I was unsure of how hard it is to bend the teak to conform to the shear line. After fighting to fair that damn hull I was looking forward to laying something down on a fairly flat surface without having to bend anything.

I've not heard of epoxyworks magazine and will try to find it. Am I the only one on here who hasn't?

Art,

$700 is about what I got for a quote for supplying me with planks. Times are a bit tight here and that's just more money than I can look my wife in the eye about (she's not a sailer and has very graciously tolerated this project to date). $13,000???? wow... nice to know what your labor's worth though... Your boat looks wonderful.

If anyone is interested, here are a few more shots of the hull in progress before I "ruined" it by painting it (my wife's words, not mine... I always intended to paint it).

Thanks...

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid80/p7aea1f3023640b9dca58a2e758062f8a/fb0c0849.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid80/p093cdce006f271975d04c9e94a9cfb8d/fb0c0837.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid80/pfad136385107f9bdb235438527ba4be8/fb0c0834.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid80/p6211f2cd572e28094cd607190844990c/fb0c082b.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid80/p16ea9b21deb7048b9ff98fcb66779b26/fb0c0824.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid80/pc4a3d40c3b33e31935e1e527aa50ee44/fb0c081c.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid80/p0976dcb4b111950437feaff2ee4143e2/fb0c0731.jpg

[Scott Rosen]

That's a beautiful boat, but I don't think she would look good with a teak deck. It would be out of character on a sleek, modern design like that. It would be heavy, too. Have you considered Dynel and epoxy over plywood?

[ 09-19-2003, 12:20 PM: Message edited by: Scott Rosen ]

[Nicholas Carey]

Originally posted by davef:
2) I am now completely confused on how to get a nice looking teak deck on the boat.WoodenBoat #147 had a good article by Ian Bruce
/Teak-over-plywood decks:/construction technique/Ian Bruce, 147:56on current practice in putting together teak-over-ply decks. It's worth a read, if for no over reason than for the piece on how to jig up for nibbing the decking into the king plank and/or margin boards.

Consider that your decking has to be over-thick when you lay it down because you're going to have to fair it (40-grit is your friend) and clean up the inevitable gloppage of goo that's gotten on the teak. Your 1/8 ins decking might wind up as 1/16 ins (or less) depending on how much wood you need to remove post-installation.

[ 09-19-2003, 12:42 PM: Message edited by: Nicholas Carey ]

[Bob Smalser]

700 bucks for those small fore and side decks is pretty spendy....guessing 30BF of 4/4 stock for resawing into 60SF of decking.....especially when you are paying for imported Teak kilned to 8 pct M/C when 20pct M/C would be better.

Have you looked at alternatives, Dave? You don't post a location, but local sawyers and often tree service operations are a source of roughcut, airdried durable wood suitable for a deck at reasonable prices....quartersawn Black Walnut comes to mind...you don't see it in boats often, but it would behave just like Teak on a deck, and be an eyecatcher.

For example, I buy birdseye maple "music" wood here for $.45/BF in the log....similar price to Midwestern walnut....after I mill and airdry it, I could easily let it go at $2-6/BF depending on quality/defects....I'd only get that much from a middleman, anyway, who merely doubles the price to sell it to you. That'd be less than 200 bucks for your deck stock...just buy enuf overage to "highgrade" your boards by cutting around defects.

When it comes to yachts, folks pay an awful lot for convention....should I do one like yours one day, I wouldn't hesitate to use quartersawn old-growth DF or Oregon White Oak for decking...at 2 bucks or so a BF among the local guys.

Again...very pretty boat...she's gonna be lots of fun.

[ 09-19-2003, 12:40 PM: Message edited by: Bob Smalser ]

[Nicholas Carey]

DaveF sez:
I think I'll go on a teak hunt and see what kind of largish boards I can scare up.Try Edensaw at http://www.edensaw.com and East Teak at http://www.eastteak.com/

You ought to be able to source suitable teak strips for your decking in the dimensions you want. What you're looking for in this case is clear vertical-grain teak, but if you decide to mill your own, you want plain-sawn (flat-grain) planks, as long as possible that are as thick as your decking strips are wide.

But you ought to inquire about pre-milled strips. You may find that this path costs no more than milling your own. Remember, if you're milling out 1/4 in. thick strips, wasting 33% of each plank (1/8 in. kerf); if you're milling 1/8" stock, you're looking at a 50% loss in milling. That's a lot of expensive sawdust.


Can you tell me what a kingpost is???The king plank is the wider plank that runs down the centerline of the deck. The deck planks, if sprung, are usually 'nibbed' into the king plank (the king plank is notched to receive each deck plank.) Again, read the article on teack decks in WoodenBoat #147. All will become clear.


What is a "sprung" deck? Is that were the planks curve, following the curvature of the shear line?Yes. The decking is sprung, or edge-set, to the sheer.


If so, I agree that type of deck looks beautiful but I was unsure of how hard it is to bend the teak to conform to the shear line. After fighting to fair that damn hull I was looking forward to laying something down on a fairly flat surface without having to bend anything.Edge-setting the teak decking isn't difficult at all (up until you hit a certain thickness/width :D ). It edge-sets pretty easily.

[Bruce Hooke]

I helped my father use the Gougeon Brother's teak "veneer" method to make a new cockpit sole for his 23' boat about 3-4 years ago. So, based on that experience I think I can offer a few thoughts on the method advocated by the Gougeon Brothers.

First off, at the current rate of wear the deck we laid should be good for another 30 years at a minimum. Unless you scrub the hell out of the teak I really don't think it should wear down that quickly, especially on a small boat where you will not be running around a lot. I believe we went with 3/16" thick "planks". The Gougeon Brothers use this method on the boats they build and I can't imagine that they would be laying decks that would wear out in 10 years. A neat job, which I did not find that hard to do, should just leave you with some glue to sand down -- you should not need to sand off that much wood, and you certainly shouldn't need to go at it with 40 grit paper. What it takes is a slightly different midset -- more in line with interior joinery than hull construction. If you approach it like you are laying a 1 1/4" thick teak deck then you may have problems, but you are already clearly quite experienced with laying veneer so I don't think you will have any trouble.

Make sure you sand down the epoxy as soon as it is cured enough to be sandable. If you let it set for a week it will be a lot harder to sand.

Edge setting thin stips of teak is a bit harder than edge setting full thickness teak planks, because the thin strips of teak want to flip up on edge. However, it can be done. To get an idea of how hard it would be, cut a 6' piece of sample planking and try bending it on a sample piece of plywood. Remember that as you bend it you can use screws with washers in the planks seams to hold it down.

I disagree that teak decks look out of place on high-tech boats. Some pretty high-tech racer/cruisers have them. I think maybe a lot of us in the wooden boat crowd are just used to thinking of them as traditional.

I would avoid Walnut for decking -- it's pretty soft stuff. Other woods could work but I think they would be more likely to look out of place on a high-tech boat. Also, some woods, such as maple and white oak, have a bad habit of turning black if they get wet that much. So, they would need to be kept very well varnished.

Epoxy Works is a free magazine put out by Gougeon Brothers and sent to people who have recently purchased their products. I believe the back issues are all up on their website: http://www.westsystem.com There is a lot of good information in this magazine.

For cutting the teak, a thin-kerf blade on a tablesaw is not a bad way to go. A bandsaw will leave a thinner kerf but will require more thickness planing or more sanding afterwards to get it smooth, so the difference in wood lost between the two is not as big as it would seem. That said, were I to do it now I would probably use a bandsaw (I did not have one when I did it). Here is what I would do:

1. Make sure the bandsaw is well tuned up. Don't even bother with anything less than a 14" bandsaw such as the Delta 14" -- I just don't think a smaller saw will be up to the job.

2. Get a 1/2" Wood Slicer bandsaw blade from someplace like http://www.highlandhardware.com Unless you have a really big bandsaw you won't be able to tension anything wider than a 1/2" blade sufficiently for it to work well.

3. Make a fence that you can clamp down to the table. Take some test cuts to determine the "drift" of the blade (i.e., how much you have to swing the piece of wood to one side or the other to get straight cut). You can do this by starting a cut along a straight line and then stopping half-way thought the cut once you have the blade following the line nicely. Set the fence to this angle and then do another test cut against the fence and adjust as necessary.

I would not go to all the trouble of setting up such a fence for just a few cuts but for milling that much decking I think it would be time well spent, because it's hard to focus on following a straight line when you have that much material to cut, and with a good fence you also don't need to mark off each cut on the edge of the stock.

Finally, as you can see there are many ways to skin this cat so do what makes sense to you.

[ 09-19-2003, 01:19 PM: Message edited by: Bruce Hooke ]

[davef]

Bruce, Nicholas,

Ok... I've got two big planks of teak on the way from Edensaw (thanks for the lead). Wish me luck. Gulp.

I've flip-flopped and hope to cut these with my bandsaw. I'm curious if anyone has any advice on building a fence. I was told by a co-worker that a good fence to use for re-sawing is a simple 1/2" vertical steel rod that is offset from blade by your desired thickness (3/16"?) and a bit before the leading edge of the teeth. He said that with the rod, you can pivot the board to compensate for the blade walking. Any comments?

I'm a fairly competent machinist and have access to a nice shop, so I'm not intimidated by making something more complex. Does it make sense to make a more rigid fence that essentially tries to force the board into the right location by locating it on both sides?

Thanks for all the help!

[Bob Smalser]

The steel rod idea sounds about right....but those that I have made have been a simple 5/4 X 6" block set on edge, ripped to match the height of and fastened to the saw's existing fence at 90 degrees with threaded steel inserts and machine screws.

You can slot the holes in the bandsaw fence to provide some fore and aft adjustment.

Taper and bullnose the blade-side edge of the block, and you have a resaw fence that's adjustable 4 ways.

If you are more comfortable with a fence, then make one....less than an hour's job. Don't try to fix the board so's ya can't move it, or try the existing fence w/o the resaw block attached....even the stiffest blade on a small saw grabs some grain and wanders and ya gotta have room to move the board to compensate.

Here's a frame resaw design that attempts to fix the board as you are describing...pretty, but they don't work worth hooey...which makes it a wallhanger:

http://host65.ipowerweb.com/~traditi2/forum/files/dscn0462s.jpg

PS, if you ever do get some B. Walnut that has to stand tough duty...simply mix a dark tropical hardwood fine sawdust from your sander in with unthickened epoxy...Cocobolo or something reddish is nice.....apply with a spatula under a 115 degrees heat gun, forcing the goop deep into the pores....let cure...sand back to the wood surface...add an oil or finish of your choosing. Not Teak....but pretty close....a whole lot prettier, tho.

[ 09-20-2003, 12:36 AM: Message edited by: Bob Smalser ]

[JimConlin]

If done with restraint, deak deck veneer on a 'modern' boat isn't so silly. This is the mostly-composite Newick tri i'm building.
http://www.conlin-boats.com/spark_46.jpg

I sliced the stock with a thin-kerf blade on a table saw. I try to buy 8/4 (nominal 2") stock. You want the tsrips to be quarter-sawn, so if the plank is flat sawn, slices from the edge will be VG. If the plank is quarter-sawn, cut it into 2x2 squares and slice the other way. If you pay $15/BF for the stock, it works out to under $5/ft^2 for the strips.

On a lightweight boat like that, i'd use 1/8" thickness. Veneer that thin won't tolerate edge-setting, so you have to lay it straight. This is from the Gougeon book.
http://www.conlin-boats.com/dazy_deck.jpg

If the sub-deck were beefier, screws and fender washers between the planks would work well. As the sub-deck is only 1/4" ply, I'd try staples. Vacuum bagging would be a pain. Would this be a good use for the Raptor plastic staples? Scrape the epoxy out of the grooves when it's green.

Looks like a very nice boat, very well done.

I have tried and did not like the WEST graphite epoxy seam filler. The black dust filled the teak pores and looked awful. The Sika product for seaming teak deck is no longer sold in the US. Sika recommended to me the Teak Decking Systems (http://www.teakdecking.com/) STS 440 sealant. TDS takes phone orders. It's a black silicone goo. It works and sands easily.