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The Gentleman Sawyer
11-26-2007, 03:56 PM
You pilots out there read this and tell me I shouldn't be concerned when I fly Comair or ASA.

http://www.star-telegram.com/business/story/322928.html

Ken

High C
11-26-2007, 05:29 PM
If not for the Persian Gulf War and its interruption of people's flying habits, I'd have been one of those low time ASA pilots back in the late 80s.

At about 500 total hours including 125 of multi, I interviewed successfully, passed the sym check. and was put in their training pool. We were to be trained at Flight Safety International and quickly assigned a right seat job. Then Hussein marched into Kuwait and everything went to hell in a handbag. The minimum hours shot back up and I fell off the back of the experience curve.

In my estimation this would be a reasonable, safe practice IF these young pilots remain Co-pilots for at least a couple of years to gain experience. Today's planes are practically one man planes, and actually flown by only one pilot most of the time.

That's how nearly ALL experienced pilots became such, under the watchful eye of senior pilots.

It all hinges on how experienced the Captains are....

paladin
11-26-2007, 06:08 PM
In 1964 I was one of those low hours pilots, about 750 hours TT with 200 multi (light twins) and slightly less in DC-3's/C-47's and 60 hours or so in B-25's/A-26's, maybe 100 in the P-51, and 50 in the Widgeon.......It was over 100 hours later as the weenie in the right seat before I was turned loose with a company plane "solo" and another 200 hours in the A26......but I have seen over 1000 hours in a year and nearly 1500 in two consecutive years, and that probably had a lot to do with not wanting to be a cargo pilot or whatever after the war, but then I got's lotsa and lotsa hours in antiques.

Tar Devil
11-26-2007, 06:24 PM
Well, I've flown light twins and I've flown B737s. Once acclimated, I found the jet easier to fly, especially with one engine inoperative. Granted, there are an abundance of systems on the jet... but there are two pilots, also.

paladin
11-26-2007, 09:15 PM
and I wuz gonna add the antiques were more fun....dogfighting in Gypsy moths or stearmens or Bucker Jungmeister with 75 feet of crepe paper tied to the tailskid/wheel........wheeeeeeeeeeeeee......:D but don't ever try it in a JN-4D Jenny....ain't got much oooomph in the model A engine.....

George Roberts
11-26-2007, 11:38 PM
"Check out the statistics of airline acidents per the number of passengers,"

It is perhaps unfair to consider passenger miles. It makes flying look safer than driving but ...

For pilots and drivers a more valid number might be accidents/hr.

Oyvind Snibsoer
11-27-2007, 04:00 AM
From the article:
"For example, a starting pilot at Trans States, a regional airline that flies for American under the name American Connection, earns $22 a flight hour, with 74 hours guaranteed a month, according to AirlinePilotCentral.com, which tracks pilot salaries. That translates to an annual starting salary of $19,500. A pilot flying 1,000 hours a year -- the most allowed under federal rules -- would earn about $22,000."

So, a fresh pilot, who's probably up above his head in loans after paying for his commercial licence, is guaranteed a pay of a mere $ 1628/month! And this is for flying time, how many unpaid hours does the pilot spend waiting in airports between flights? Can you actually live off this kind of money in the US? I know prices are lower than around here, but still...

But seriously, how can you trust someone with a multi-million $ plane and the lives of a hundred passengers or more, and then only pay them a pittance? I know I wouldn't trust my life to a minimum-wage pilot.

Andrew Craig-Bennett
11-27-2007, 04:19 AM
We, all of us on this planet, trust our ships, almost all of them, to very badly paid people, who are usually extremely tired when in coastal (= dangerous) waters due to reduction in manning levels.

Then when they have an accident we throw the captain in jail.

BrianW
11-27-2007, 05:06 AM
Don't think I'd like being a transport pilot. Too many boring hours in the cockpit, with minutes of excitement at take of and landing. Dealing with ATC and dispatch. Add in angry passengers, and the only time the job is cool is when walking thru the airport. :)

BrianW
11-27-2007, 05:09 AM
Can you actually live off this kind of money in the US? I know prices are lower than around here, but still...

But seriously, how can you trust someone with a multi-million $ plane and the lives of a hundred passengers or more, and then only pay them a pittance? I know I wouldn't trust my life to a minimum-wage pilot.

No, couldn't live off that in most areas.

So what is the standard in Norway which allows you to find out you pilots salary? And, how does Norway avoid the same problems the US is experiencing with the pilot shortage?

Perhaps it the small size of Norway, relative to the US?

Henning 4148
11-27-2007, 02:02 PM
... problems the US is experiencing with the pilot shortage?


I guess the market will regulate it (Isn't that the American answer to everything?). Pay peanuts, get monkeys. Or bring in cheap labour from abroad. Eventually, after a few crashes, the insurance companies will step forward and say "either you meet such and such standard, or you won't have insurance".

At least in Europe, we did have a few discussions on charter airline pilots a few years back. After one crash, it was found that pilot and copilot didn't have a common language they both spoke well ...

Oyvind Snibsoer
11-27-2007, 03:34 PM
Brian,
it's hard to find any real figures. I did find that a wannabe helicopter pilot with a fresh commercial licence in his pocket could expect to start out as a loader at NOK 200 000/USD 33 000/yr. He would probably stay in this position for around two years while gaining experience and flight hours. An experienced pilot chopper pilot would be expected to make NOK 400'-700' or more, i.e. USD 66' - 116'. The salary probably peaks out at ~ USD 200'.

For a commercial airline pilot, I'd expect a co-pilot to start at NOK 400'/USD 66', although there are some smaller companies that probably pay less.

Taylor Tarvin
11-28-2007, 10:43 AM
I don't think anyone answered the original question. I wouldn't be concerned just yet. The major airlines, with few exceptions, have not hired in six plus years. Most are just ramping up hiring, we started about 9 months ago. Because no one was hiring there are alot of very experienced pilots currently at the regionals. Most of their pilots fly apprx 1,000 hours a year so after 7 or 8 years they have quite a bit of experience. If the majors hire in large numbers for any length of time that experience level in the cockpit will certainly start to drop and low time (almost no time) copilots might start to be a problem. All airlines are closely monitored by the FAA. They look at all aspects of operations to include training. It is always a thrill to show up for a simulator checkride and have the feds there. If the system works correctly (maybe a big if) they would see a negative trend and address it before it would be a problem with the traveling public.

Andrew Craig-Bennett
11-28-2007, 10:45 AM
Thank you, Taylor.

Taylor Tarvin
11-28-2007, 01:12 PM
Andrew, that answer was more geared to the US airlines. Most established British and European airlines (BA, KLM, Air France, Lufthansa) hire pilots off the street and put throught their own program. BAs used to be at Prestwick, Lufthansas is in Pheonix. They put applicants through an extensive battery of tests, choose whom they wish and send them to school. Very different over here.
Some airlines have instituted ab initio programs through college aviation programs but nothing like you guys have.

John of Phoenix
11-28-2007, 03:56 PM
Regional carriers, which operate flights for major airlines like American, Delta and United, have been slashing their minimum hiring requirements in recent years as they grapple with a growing shortage of pilots. The carriers have reduced required flight hours for job applicants by as much as two-thirds, and in a few cases have hired pilots with the minimum experience required by the Federal Aviation Administration for a pilot's license.
No wonder there's a shortage! With pay like that, a guy would have to sleep in a tent and live on food stamps to survive. This is where the expression, "I fly for the love of flying" comes from.

Here's the pay scale, last chart - "Small Narrowbody"
http://airlinepilotcentral.com/option,com_docman/task,doc_view/gid,43/Itemid,85.html

At least at the three year mark, First Officer pay almost doubles in several cases but there's lots of beans 'n weenies in those first couple of years.

Andrew Craig-Bennett
11-28-2007, 05:10 PM
Andrew, that answer was more geared to the US airlines. Most established British and European airlines (BA, KLM, Air France, Lufthansa) hire pilots off the street and put throught their own program. BAs used to be at Prestwick, Lufthansas is in Pheonix. They put applicants through an extensive battery of tests, choose whom they wish and send them to school. Very different over here.
Some airlines have instituted ab initio programs through college aviation programs but nothing like you guys have.

I don't know what effecte the rise and rise of the budget airlines may be having, Taylor. I idly Googled BA Recruitment and it seems the sponsored pilot scheme "is now closed". Of course, that may not be permanent. You will know better than I.

When I worked for a shipping company associated with Cathay Pacific, twenty years ago, their then Technical Director, Stewart John, announced over the lunch table that he had recruited the right hand side of the Red Arrows and was working down the left side. He was also rather pleased to have the son of Frank Whittle flying for the airline - but I seem to recall that their salary and benefit scheme was considered exceptional by industry standards in those days.

Taylor Tarvin
11-28-2007, 05:35 PM
Andrew, the sponsored programs may very well be a thing of the past. The low cost airlines have had a big impact on pilot hiring. When things were going south here I looked into Ryan Air. If you were 737 rated they would help you convert your FAA license to JAA. Things are better here now but last I checked Ryan and many other low cost carriers were hiring like crazy. Evidently the former eastern block countries have become a big source for pilots.

Cathay Pacific is still a great company, both in regards to service and employment. RAF pilots used to have a problem with airline jobs because of their military commitments. The first time a RAF pilot could leave the service was after the 12 year mark and most airlines considered them to old. That has changed considerably because of the low cost carriers and fractional ownership of corporate aircraft.

paladin
11-28-2007, 08:32 PM
a contract, 1964, to fly for 20 hours a week, simgle engine land or multi-engine 12,500 pounds or less, was 72K per annum.......
more than 20 hours was time and a half, sat/sun was double time, if a day was a holoiday it was double time, if the sat/sun was a holiday it was triple time and so on......I flew for 11 years, never the minimum, always at least 20% overtime, and two consecutive years when I was flying 30-45 hours a week,every week and saturday and sunday. Every payday I would go into town and put 100 dollars in scrip in my pocket, 100 dollars in american green currency, and bough gold withthe rest. When we finally bailed out of Saigon I had moved Lamson to Thailand expecting a baby any day, 38 kg of gold, and about 20K in american and Thai currency in our baggage. So I brought her to the U.S. and she had the baby in Alaska. I had stopped buying gold at 36 dollars an ounce, but did buy about 5000 dollars more at 68 dollars an ounce just before returning to U.S....some of the gold was sold at $612 an ounce in Alaska the month after we arrived....From the first load of gold we sold, we cleared 600,000$ or more than 10 our investment. The stock that we put into the safety deposit boxes was double what we cashed in. Much was converted to cash later and use for silver when the Hunt brothers started their fiasco....We were buying silver at 1.68 per ounce when it hit 15$, but we never delt in futures, just the metal. We purchased 1000 ounze ingots at the smelter but stopped buying at a bit over 6 dollars an ounce, because we didn't want to be trapped when the bubble broke. When it hit 54 an ounce I said sell, but mom held on to it to make just a little more, and again I ordered it sold...but I finally had to call a friend to physically go to the house and take the silver to the store...barely in time as it had peaked and the bottom was hanging by a thread......ours was the last transaction before it flopped way down. My 3.50 an ounce average silver brought53.75 before it crashed.....80,000ounces sold in 15 minutes....