The Sinking of NY30 Amorita

[Tom Robb]

I know this was discussed some a while ago, but I just found some horribly sickening pictures in Oct 07 issue of ClassicBoat and have questions:
How did this come about - how did Sumurun manage to cause this?
Was Sumurun at fault as the article says?
Have the owner(s) of Sumurun failed to make things right as the article says?
Was Amorita raised and will she be restored?

[bamamick]

and from what I have read she will be restored. Can't answer any of the rest of it.

Mickey Lake

[Brian Palmer]

I read the article about this in Soundings. What I cannot understand is why the larger (faster) boats were started after the smaller (slower) boats, so that the larger boats were sailing through the fleet of slower boats. This seems counter-intuitive if you are trying to spread out the fleet to avoid these sorts of accidents. It seems it would be better to get the larger (faster) boats out first.

I have practically no experience in real yacht racing, but when I organized running races, we always put the faster runners near the front at the start to avoid similar sorts of events.

[John Bertenshaw]

I read the article about this in Soundings. What I cannot understand is why the larger (faster) boats were started after the smaller (slower) boats, so that the larger boats were sailing through the fleet of slower boats. This seems counter-intuitive if you are trying to spread out the fleet to avoid these sorts of accidents. It seems it would be better to get the larger (faster) boats out first.

I have practically no experience in real yacht racing, but when I organized running races, we always put the faster runners near the front at the start to avoid similar sorts of events.

There's always two schools of thought on that aspect and it is one of those issues which has been discussed in yacht clubs since time began.

One , as you say.. get the quick/big boats away first so they have a clear path. This is how most 'serious' fleet racing is done now( here, anyway)
Two, in club racing you'll often get the comment from smaller / slower boats that they never get to see the big boats ,so historically and perhaps in less serious racing.. as I say club races / rallys/ classic events etc, you will get the race run with the bigger boats starting after.
Overtaking boats have to keep clear.

[rbgarr]

As I understand it, Sumurun's crew ignored the specific instructions in the skipper's meeting ( and written?) for all large boats to stay clear of smaller ones (perhaps most especially at mark roundings, crossing tacks and overtaking?)

In the Soundings pictures it also shows clearly that there was no one on the bow of Sumurun to give any guidance or warnings.

[elf]

Ayup

[bamamick]

they quite often start the slower boats first is that it allows everyone to finish closer together, which is a plus if you are putting on a party after the racing.


Silly, but there it is.

Mickey Lake

[Figment]

I don't think it's silly at all. Keep the fleet together. Maybe have to consider a boat or three at your mark rounding. This is what makes fleet racing interesting. Without other boats to consider, you just spend all damn day obsessing over trim.

[Tom Hunter]

I'm with Figment.

The actual risk of collision from starting the faster boats later is very low. Also in classic yacht racing a large part of the reason for having the race is the show. Seperating the fleet wrecks that.

The problem was not the order of start, it was actions afterwards. I am not commenting on who is at fault, I am just saying that the race comittee did not cause the accident.

I don't race my boat very often (I race other peoples), but when I do I prefer slow boats first, fast boats later. Its a lot more fun.

Finally on the races that I do on plastic boats they start fastest first, and trust me that has not stopped collisions.:D

[Concordia 33]

Paul and I were at the Newport Boat Show yesterday and saw Sumurun at the dock. Coffee cup in hand while one of the crew fetched a case of Pellagrino. A gentleman commented to us the they had a lot of nerve showing up in Newport this year. I guess they moor Sumurun in Newport sometimes. It was a sadly serene scene.

[Peter Malcolm Jardine]

I saw those pictures, and I still haven't managed to figure out who was on what tack... but ... I have always had some rules of my own, and one is, that great big boats always have the right of way over my smaller boat... regardless of the 'real' rules. I used to race keelboats, and it was always interesting at starting lines, and the windward mark when buoy room was called. Common sense should rule the day, thats what the little red flag is for. I remember some bumps, but nothing serious, and I wasn't ever involved in one.

I have also witnessed collisions, notably one at the 76 sailing olympics between two Solings. One boat was holed significantly, and in all the yelling and screaming, no one noticed that the positive flotation was not holding the boat, and no one tied a line on it. It sank in about 400 feet of water. No one was hurt.

[Concordia 33]

Though I agree that the smaller boat is better served by avoiding the larger boat: In this case, Sumurun came barreling in at the mark and hit one New York 30 in the stern pivoting it into Amorita. When Amorita was hit she was spun into the path of he surging Sumurun. Of the three boats, Amorita was least responsible, and even the other New York 30 could arguable be defended as it is hard to avoid someone that with little warning overtakes and rams you from astern.
-Paul

[Wild Wassa]

"Amorita was least responsible, ... "

Rule 18 was in effect during the rounding, Rule 16 was not. Alura was equally free of fault.

There was only one boat at fault Sumurun.

Sumurun being disqualified was the wrong result. Sumurun withdrew after causing serious damage. A DNF was the true result. A DSQ was the wrong finding by the protest committee.

Is it common in the US that two separate protests are heard? What is wrong with one protest hearing when the result is so cut and dry? ... you have to laugh hey, if anything the Skippers should protest the Committee? A simple claim to the insurer should have been all that was needed if Skippers and Committees actually knew the rules of racing.

One of my friends has a classic saying, which I fully endorse, and is so evident when we travel away to race. "The dishonesty of the local handicapper is only passed by the incompetence of the local race committee." This is too true.

I like the faster boats starting first. There is nothing worse than having a good position within your Division written off by some Skipper in a big boat thinking that they are racing against you at all costs, when they are not even in your Division. It happens all the time, the bigger the boat the bigger the idiot. Big boat Skippers are everywhere who are carried away by their boat's importance.

If you race in mixed yacht fleets ... you will know exactly what I mean. You will have been a big boat Skipper's victim at some stage.

Warren.

[Concordia 33]

My only point in my last post was regarding the issue of it being common sense to avoid larger boats rather than the issue of racing rules. Or Coast Guard rules of the road for that matter. I think you took my statement too literally, but your point is well taken.

-Paul

[Oldsalt]

I saw those pictures, and I still haven't managed to figure out who was on what tack...


Here is a link that may help:
http://tinyurl.com/2zoma3

[Ian McColgin]

At the weather mark of an Opra House Race the 12's, who'd started three fleets - 15 minutes - behind us slow schooners caught up. The next leg was a starboard reach, which we were fairly on when one of the 12's charging to the mark on port tack shouted for us to get out of their way. They managed to just cross my bow as I luffed the sail, and had their shouts answered by a shot from my signal cannon and a red flag. The RC at first did not want to hear it as we were not directly competing, but eventually disqualified the 12 for unsportsmanlike conduct.

Then there was the Moffett start where we led a parade of 5 twenty ton boats to the committee boat end when another large sloop barged us and I sqeezed port to let them in as they'd taken no evasive action in time and if i stood on the RC would be swimming. Much shouting, especially when a little Soling slalomed among us on port tack and somehow lived.

There are stupid reckless rich sports who buy a big classic and really can't judge their own momentum correctly, don't care anyway. But in the races I most like - Moffett and such - the boats are sailed by owners who love their boats and sail with intelligence and prudence.

I favor starting the smaller and slower boats first, partly for the party, partly to shorten the RC's day, and most especially to let all the boats see each other. The overtaking boats need to observe the rules and get over tonnage entitlement.

Even more, I love the timed start, as the Figawee does. In that each boat has her own starting time based on handicap. At the finish, you've beaten anyone you cross ahead of. It moves the Charlie Foxtrot from the start and often the first weather mark to the end, but it's really fun, especially if a good number of boats have sailed equally good races.

[martin schulz]

That is exactly the reason we don't honor the boats that come in first in the RumRegatta. It makes sense to do so with modern boats as they are easily replaceable. But with old classics we believe that any attempt at sailing too ambitiously should be discouraged, because some do have the money to repair their boats, but very often the owners of such boats don't have the money.

I found out that it actually doesn't matter if one wins a prize. What matters is to win against a boat one has decided to race against and of course to have fun on the water.

[Salt Marsha]

Did I see the Sumurun docked in Newport?

[James River Rat]

many years ago on a governors cup race (Annapolis to st Marys overnight) they started the multihulls last. We were on a 30 foot newick tri. Masthead lights......none down low.

We just ducked everyone since no one saw us and those that did weren't expecting speed double the mono hulls.

It was a fun night and I am sure we lost 100s of yards ducking all night.

We finished close to the first boats over the line and passed HUNDREDS of boats all night.

Too bad the big classic didn't just duck. Lucky they didn't kill someone.