A small victory against bigotry

[Ross M]

Church ordered to pay $10.9 million for funeral protest (http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/law/10/31/funeral.protests.ap/index.html)

CNN: " A grieving father won a nearly $11 million verdict Wednesday against a fundamentalist Kansas church that pickets military funerals in the belief that the war in Iraq is a punishment for the nation's tolerance of homosexuality."

"Church founder Fred Phelps held a sign reading "God is your enemy," while Shirley Phelps-Roper stood on an American flag and carried a sign that read "God hates fag enablers."

[Paul Pless]

I usually keep it to myself when I think that somebody deserves to have their ass really and truly kicked, but I'll just go ahead and put it out there this time:

Fred Phelps Needs His Ass Kicked!!!

[seanz]

Mean people suck
It's a victory against some really nasty bigots that's for sure

http://www.stuff.co.nz/4257972a12.html

I just read about it and I can't believe it took so long to get something done about these people.


fag enablers

Good grief
:rolleyes:

[Keith Wilson]

Fred Phelps needs his ass kicked!!!A commonly held opinion, for sure. You'll have to stand in line. I'm fond of these fellows: the Patriot Guard - a bunch of bikers who attend military funerals and make damn sure those yahoos never get anywhere near the families.
http://www.patriotguard.org/


http://www.bikernet.com/news/images/PhotoID18109.jpg

[LeeG]

finally

[Tylerdurden]

Ross, you need to run up to Ft.Pierce and hang with the brothers and get their take on this. Don't buy any rock while you are there because we need you sober when you report back.
While you are at it, let the cops know they shouldn't be beating our sisters. I know you will do your part to fight bigotry.

[Rational Root]

Anyone who has read my posts will know where I stand regarding religious nutters.... In my estimation they are a cancer on society.

But does this not fall under

freedom of speech ?
freedom of assembly ?
freedom of religion ?
The US Constitution ?Again, for clarity, I do not support these guys in any way shape or form.

BUT.... if you ban protests at funerals.... what about banning protests at..... [insert sensitive occasion here]

Do you see where I am going with this ?

Who do you trust to decide what speech to ban, and where to ban it from ?

What happens when in 20 years you find that any anti government protests have fallen under the same original, but by then expanded laws.

Again, from a personal point of view, I think the protesters are a waste of Oxygen, however I would wonder about where such laws could lead.

Also for the record, I don't have a good solution to the problem either. Hold the funerals on private land ? Arrest protestors for trespass ?

[Paul Pless]

BUT.... if you ban protests at funerals.... what about banning protests at..... [insert sensitive occasion here]

Do you see where I am going with this ?I think you could argue that a funeral is a private event regardless of where its held.



Mark, what does your post have to do with anything?:confused:

[Tylerdurden]

I think you could argue that a funeral is a private event regardless of where its held.



Mark, what does your post have to do with anything?:confused:


I kinda take issue with Ross and bigotry thats all.

As far as the protests at funerals I believe there is room in our laws for fighting words. If it was my family member being protested in that way I think I would find some people to introduce those protesters to prison sex. Chances are they already like it.

[Dan McCosh]

Does anybody know what constitutes invasion of privacy?

[Greg Nolan]

"But does this not fall under

* freedom of speech ?
* freedom of assembly ?
* freedom of religion ?
* The US Constitution ?"


Do not the funeral goers have protectable freedom of speech, freedom to assemble peaceabley, freedom to practice religion, all protected by the US Constitution?

There is no absolute freedom -- my freedom to swing my arm stops at the end of your nose. No one has the right to falsely cry "fire" in a crowded theater. No one's exercise of religion should allow burning of witches.

There will almost always be situations in which one person's rights will conflict with another person's -- and reasonable societies have systems to define the limits of rights and to resolve the conflicts.

Tolerance, sorely lacking by Phelps and his kind, goes a long way to easing conflicts. I am strongly opposed to the military action that was recklessly initiated and is being mindlessly continued by leaders who lack the ability to be self-critical and admit they have made a grevious error which is wasting the lives of brave and dedicated people. And I have considerable regard for those people who have dedicated their lives to serve their country in the military and who go in harm's way. It is appalling that small-minded bigots cannot get outside of their own tunnel-visioned view of what they imagine their god wants to interfer with grieving and burial of the dead.

The courts quite properly have said that, no matter Phelps religious belief, he and his kind to not have a right to interfer with the rights of the mourners.

[alphatopher]

You have the right to pretty much say whatever you want in America, but you also have to face the ramifications that your words have on others. People are sued everyday for defamation, slander, and libel, and this is exactly what these bigots did. Their words, their actions, their signs, caused pain which they need to be held accountable for.

[Keith Wilson]

I don't think that one can reasonably argue that stopping Fred Phelps and his followers (his family, mostly) from disrupting military funerals by screaming about how "God Hates Fags" is a step down the slippery slope to repression of all protest.

[Bruce Hooke]

The question of constitutionality is an interesting one, and it will be interesting to see if this decision is appealed and if it is what the final outcome will be. From what little I've been hearing about this, it sounds like a key question is whether the funeral was a public or a private event. If the latter, then those attending the funeral have more protection against being harassed. If it was a public event then free speech rights most likely apply.

I imagine in a case like this the distinctions that would make this a private versus a public event are probably fairly finely drawn, meaning that it comes down to details such as how it was announced and whether the public was invited.

[Ross M]

I kinda take issue with Ross and bigotry thats all...

Can you explain the basis for your issue?

Thanks in advance,

Ross

[Brian Palmer]

I imagine in a case like this the distinctions that would make this a private versus a public event are probably fairly finely drawn, meaning that it comes down to details such as how it was announced and whether the public was invited.

I imagine that in this case, like in most, friends and family were publicly invited to pay their "respects," and by implication lend their support to the surviving family, not rant and jeer some homophobic theocratic theories about the cause for the war and the soldier's death.

-- Brian

[Bruce Hooke]

I imagine that in this case, like in most, friends and family were publicly invited to pay their "respects," and by implication lend their support to the surviving family, not rant and jeer some homophobic theocratic theories about the cause for the war and the soldier's death.

-- Brian

Let me first say, for the record, that I think Fred Phelps and his crew have been acting in unbelievably appalling ways. I would be quite happy if Fred Phelps quietly took himself off to hell, but I do care about freedom of speech.

I am wondering if the free speech issue turns on whether just specific family and friends were invited or whether, say, a notice
was posted in the paper saying the funeral will be held at xyz church at such and such a time and date (this implicitly inviting the public). It might even matter whether the announcement then went on to say something like "family and friends are invited to pay their respects" (thus limiting the invitation to "family and friends"). It would be interesting to get a legal perspective, but lacking that I am just speculating what defines a public versus a private event. It does seem like it is relatively rare that funerals follow a very strict "private event" approach such as "by invitation only." Such an approach is, from what I've seen, pretty much limited to celebrity funerals. So, there may be a case to be made that this is a public event. I don't know.

I am fairly certain that once you invite the public (implicitly or explicitly) it is likely to be harder to put restraints on how they speak.

It just occurred to me that I could be off on totally the wrong track on public versus private, and that it might turn on the nature of the event and whether "the public" would typically be expected to attend such an event.

[Tylerdurden]

Can you explain the basis for your issue?

Thanks in advance,

Ross

I am just wondering why you lock the doors driving through Ft.Pierce than come on here and post about bigotry, thats all.
What kind of bigotry is ok with you?

[George Roberts]

It is a cemetery - a public place. The protesters were allowed in and I suspect not asked to behave or leave by the cemetery operators.

---

I suspect the courts will reverse the decision.

---

I don't like the behavior but that does not count for much.

[Bob Cleek]

On the other hand, if it weren't for disruptive protests, even crazy ones like this, I doubt many Americans would even realize military funerals are even happening. Seen any pictures from Graves Registration at Dover AFB lately?

[Ross M]

I am just wondering why you lock the doors driving through Ft.Pierce than come on here and post about bigotry, thats all.

Ah - I see. A basis of the insane rambling type. Well, thanks anyway!

Ross

[D.O.Sag]

ross, that's just the kind of dirt bag response that gives this place a bad name. maybe you should give an honest answer or fut the shuck up.

[Keith Wilson]

An honest respnse to a troll like that? My godness, Mr. Sag, what a respectful post for your #7. I detect a whiff of Dutch.

[Ross M]

ross, that's just the kind of dirt bag response that gives this place a bad name. maybe you should give an honest answer or fut the shuck up.

OK. Here it is: I have never been through Ft. Pierce, and I have no idea why TylerDurden thinks I should visit or be scared to visit.

And as far as I know, I am not in favor of any kind of bigotry. Even "regional" bigotry, which I am beginning to suspect is in play here.

Ross

[D.O.Sag]

thanks. agreement isn't that important, but politeness when disagreeing helps a lot.

[John of Phoenix]

... politeness when disagreeing helps a lot.
after
...maybe you should give an honest answer or fut the shuck up.
on top of
...that's just the kind of dirt bag response that gives this place a bad name

Don't ya just love irony?

[Ross M]

... politeness when disagreeing helps a lot.
after
...maybe you should give an honest answer or fut the shuck up.
on top of
...that's just the kind of dirt bag response that gives this place a bad name

Don't ya just love irony?

I agree - this is a rich vein. I need to get an autoranging function for my meter, though...:D

[Tylerdurden]

OK. Here it is: I have never been through Ft. Pierce, and I have no idea why TylerDurden thinks I should visit or be scared to visit.

And as far as I know, I am not in favor of any kind of bigotry. Even "regional" bigotry, which I am beginning to suspect is in play here.

Ross

Yes, thank you for proving my point. Ft. Pierce one town north just past Port St. Lucie. Just happens to be a mostly Black enclave on US 1.
He hasn't any Idea? Thats were the black teen girl got beat and pepper sprayed a few weeks back. National news for a week but Ross has no Idea what I am talking about.
Not only a Bigot but a fraud as well.

[Tylerdurden]

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c350/mudhutwarrior/shotdown.gif

[Ross M]

Yes, thank you for proving my point. Ft. Pierce one town north just past Port St. Lucie. Just happens to be a mostly Black enclave on US 1.
He hasn't any Idea? Thats were the black teen girl got beat and pepper sprayed a few weeks back. National news for a week but Ross has no Idea what I am talking about.
Not only a Bigot but a fraud as well.

OK - I am a bigot and a fraud based on two things:

a) I happen to live 30, 40, or 50 miles from a "mostly Black enclave on US 1."

-and-

b) "Thats were the black teen girl got beat and pepper sprayed a few weeks back"

I suppose standards of proof vary, but I personally believe you might be a a bit shy of a conviction.

Ross

PS: Ft. Pierce is not "one town north just past Port St. Lucie.". It is two towns North, just past St. Lucie. (http://pics2.city-data.com/city/maps2/cm3292.png)

PSS: Ft. Pierce is not a ""mostly Black enclave". It is 49.54% white, 40.85% African American (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Pierce,_Florida).

You may want to work a bit on the facts, big guy.

[Tylerdurden]

Got your Fox news facts right here.

From Mapquest
http://img.mqcdn.com/mqsite/icon-dirs-start [100-150] Main St
Fort Pierce, FL 34982, US Revise (http://www.mapquest.com/directions/main.adp?do=nw&mo=ma&2si=gaz%5fus&un=m&go=1&2gi=ZHLkIbC15K0%3d&1a=%5b100%2d150%5d%20Main%20St&1c=Fort%20Pierce&1g=uH8%2bjX6xIotRUf9k7fY0tg%3d%3d&1l=kM16t4LOHC0mIP1%2bD5jcsg%3d%3d&2c=Stuart&cl=EN&1n=ST%2e%20LUCIE%20COUNTY&2g=4cyALWS24zMw6krAsYuw1w%3d%3d&qq=1ADqpk24ofD8MtkRNP%252by8dKWGiBIzBI9nXDHnCp%252 bfRH3aM3EYssCuPeaMm05zUdYvxkvowFIJtAtymo%252bX3%25 2fYN7f7rryg2cnwuksIZp3nNnHYGZ6FsMpD1EU2iUaBsFI%252 fbEf%252fq5CdUnc1wrnNHH4sDUUCBzDaaJH63bZwflHM6wp03 v4%252f%252ft%252bMGs0in6g4FDz3lgSuwnJIY9V0W36xvvz sH12NqP%252fhNhBMGCIK4pOkl%252b%252btwX%252b4xaMGC QRh0M04Y2kMiXT8n4AokpitC2j90AdAQZ6GjZnV62gAKHphAQW oKrirnPUMn5Purw%253d%253d&1s=FL&2l=vtoxe6u%2f6y3FD8Re4WiSGg%3d%3d&ct=NA&1v=STREET&2n=Martin%20County&r=f&1y=US&1z=34982&2s=FL&2da=%2d1%2e000000&2rc=A5XAX&2v=CITY&did=1193985595&2y=US&rsres=1&1sb=revise) | New Directions (http://www.mapquest.com/directions/main.adp?do=nw)


http://img.mqcdn.com/mqsite/icon-dirs-end Stuart, FL US Revise (http://www.mapquest.com/directions/main.adp?do=nw&mo=ma&2si=gaz%5fus&un=m&go=1&2gi=ZHLkIbC15K0%3d&1a=%5b100%2d150%5d%20Main%20St&1c=Fort%20Pierce&1g=uH8%2bjX6xIotRUf9k7fY0tg%3d%3d&1l=kM16t4LOHC0mIP1%2bD5jcsg%3d%3d&2c=Stuart&cl=EN&1n=ST%2e%20LUCIE%20COUNTY&2g=4cyALWS24zMw6krAsYuw1w%3d%3d&qq=1ADqpk24ofD8MtkRNP%252by8dKWGiBIzBI9nXDHnCp%252 bfRH3aM3EYssCuPeaMm05zUdYvxkvowFIJtAtymo%252bX3%25 2fYN7f7rryg2cnwuksIZp3nNnHYGZ6FsMpD1EU2iUaBsFI%252 fbEf%252fq5CdUnc1wrnNHH4sDUUCBzDaaJH63bZwflHM6wp03 v4%252f%252ft%252bMGs0in6g4FDz3lgSuwnJIY9V0W36xvvz sH12NqP%252fhNhBMGCIK4pOkl%252b%252btwX%252b4xaMGC QRh0M04Y2kMiXT8n4AokpitC2j90AdAQZ6GjZnV62gAKHphAQW oKrirnPUMn5Purw%253d%253d&1s=FL&2l=vtoxe6u%2f6y3FD8Re4WiSGg%3d%3d&ct=NA&1v=STREET&2n=Martin%20County&r=f&1y=US&1z=34982&2s=FL&2da=%2d1%2e000000&2rc=A5XAX&2v=CITY&did=1193985595&2y=US&rsres=1&2sb=revise) | New Directions (http://www.mapquest.com/directions/main.adp?do=nw)



Total Est. Time: 19 minutes

Total Est. Distance: 9.68 miles


I lived there in Stuart. I know the score Ross. Don't try to blow smoke up my arse.

[Tylerdurden]

Hey Ross, How many times are you going to edit that post?
I cannot keep up with the screen captures.

[Ross M]

Hey Ross, How many times are you going to edit that post?
I cannot keep up with the screen captures.

You posted at 1:42 AM today. My last edit was at 10:13 PM yesterday, nearly 3 1/2 hours earlier. I suspect it is stable enough for rebuttal.

And thanks for correcting my distance error. The point is I don't know a dang thing about Ft. Pierce. Sure, I read about the cop thing. I have also heard that Ft. Pierce has a somewhat higher crime rate than some of the surrounding areas. I have lived here 13 months and have NEVER heard that the crime rate had anything to do with any particular race, as you seem to imply.

I apologize to all who made earnest contributions to this thread, only to see them drowned by irrelevant arguement. I should have known better.

Ross

[Tylerdurden]

I apologize to all who made earnest contributions to this thread, only to see them drowned by irrelevant arguement. I should have known better.

Ross

Wow Ross, how does it feel when the shoe is on the other foot?

And how is you being a Bigot commenting on other bigots not relevant. 9.8 miles away and you comment like its past Orlando.
Nice try.

[Ross M]

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&time=&date=&ttype=&q=stuart+fl+to+ft+pierce+fl&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=37.735377,81.738281&ie=UTF8&z=11&om=1

18.4 miles; 34 minutes. And I live in southern Stuart, which is a bit further. Enjoy your day, and any new irrational suspicions or fears you discover.

Ross

[Tylerdurden]

Keep trying, still got your number pal. Whitebread good ol boy',
Thems coloreds were only good for mowing lawns till the Guatemalans came along.

[Tylerdurden]

You know Ross, Just to give you the benefit of the doubt being as a new arrival and all, I think you need to spend some time down at the library and study the history of the two towns we talk about.
Blacks were not allowed in Stuart after dark not long ago.

Burt Reynolds learned of that and stayed south. He's not a bigot though.

[ishmael]

What line do you draw, and where do you draw it?

11 million sounds a bit extreme, but these folks are mean-spirited kooks, and I'm glad they've been sanctioned. Their right to free speech hasn't been abridged: they're still free to publish their pamphlets or mount a soap box in a public place. And I agree with Paul that a funeral is by nature a private place and shouldn't be violated this way.

How do these folks(granted, a very small clan) sleep at night? Intruding on a family's grief this way isn't freedom of speech, it's assault.

[Dan McCosh]

Whether or not this is an infringement of freedom of speech would depend on what the basis of the legal case is, and what the rationale was for the award. Does anybody have any information about these issues? Just curious.

[S/V Laura Ellen]

What line do you draw, and where do you draw it?

How do these folks(granted, a very small clan) sleep at night? Intruding on a family's grief this way isn't freedom of speech, it's assault.

Right Jack. I wonder how Fred Phelps and his family would react if people picketed and disturbed a family funeral of theirs? This isn't an issue of constitutional rights, it's and issue of common decency. Common decency should have to be enshrined in any bill of rights and no bill of rights should allow a breach of common decency.

[Tylerdurden]

Right Jack. I wonder how Fred Phelps and his family would react if people picketed and disturbed a family funeral of theirs? This isn't an issue of constitutional rights, it's and issue of common decency. Common decency should have to be enshrined in any bill of rights and no bill of rights should allow a breach of common decency.

We agree on that one.

[Brian Palmer]

The local NPR statation (WITF) interviewed the father of the soldier (from York, PA) and his lawyer yesterday.

I am paraphrasing here, but the lawyer pointed out that a funeral is not necessarily an open forum for speech because you are attending at the time and place of the family's choosing. He also pointed out that the Westboro church was infringing on the family's religious freedom by interfering with their religious practices. Finally, he noted that the judge in the case seemed to bend over backwards to accomodate the Westoboro church because he knew this case would be appealled before other judges, not a jury, and even went so far as to give the jurors specific instructions on the First Amendment aspects of the case.

Finally, the lawyer noted that among all the experts consulted for this case, they concluded that this is the first case of serial protesters at funerals. There is no other precedent.

--Brian

[Peter Kalshoven]

Mark, you make me wish I was still teaching Logic. You would be such an asset when teaching informal fallacies. First there is your penchant for ad hominem arguments. And now, with Ross, you have given a nice demonstration of Non Causa Pro Causa.

[Tylerdurden]

Mark, you make me wish I was still teaching Logic. You would be such an asset when teaching informal fallacies. First there is your penchant for ad hominem arguments. And now, with Ross, you have given a nice demonstration of Non Causa Pro Causa.

Hows that? I found a good connection here knowing exactly the type of person he posts like, the area he lives in and the fact he thinks he is not a bigot but is one. He basically copped to it in his response.

I haven't decided yet if your being an arse or and asset but I will let you know.