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Kaa
10-29-2007, 01:29 PM
An opinion on waterboarding by a professional:

"As a former Master Instructor and Chief of Training at the US Navy Survival, Evasion, Resistance and Escape School (SERE) in San Diego, California I know the waterboard personally and intimately. SERE staff were required undergo the waterboard at its fullest. I was no exception. I have personally led, witnessed and supervised waterboarding of hundreds of people."

http://smallwarsjournal.com/blog/2007/10/waterboarding-is-torture-perio/

Kaa

Phillip Allen
10-29-2007, 01:46 PM
no touture...period

Paul G.
10-29-2007, 01:47 PM
A torture victim can be made to say anything by an evil nation that does not abide by humanity, morality, treaties or rule of law. Today we are on the verge of becoming that nation. Is it possible that September 11 hurt us so much that we have decided to gladly adopt the tools of KGB, the Khmer Rouge, the Nazi Gestapo, the North Vietnamese, the North Koreans and the Burmese Junta?
What next if the waterboarding on a critical the captive doesn’t work and you have a timetable to stop the “ticking bomb” scenario? Electric shock to the genitals? Taking a pregnant woman and electrocuting the fetus inside her? Executing a captive’s children in front of him? Dropping live people from an airplane over the ocean? It has all been done by governments seeking information. All claimed the same need to stop the ticking bomb. It is not a far leap from torture to murder, especially if the subject is defiant. Are we willing to trade our nation’s soul for tactical intelligence?

ameeerica the beauteeefuuuuullll.......

Phillip Allen
10-29-2007, 01:53 PM
I wish someone would compile a list of ALL politicos who support such practices even if just averting their eyes...I expect the list is long...these people need to be systemetically driven from ALL public jobs of all types

In any event, they should NEVER be allowed to hide from public view

John of Phoenix
10-29-2007, 01:55 PM
Torture will continue until those responsible for it's use are brought before a court of international justice and tried for their crimes.

The next time we get hit, the rest of the world will not be so generous with sympathy.


Waterboarding is Torture… Period

Bruce Hooke
10-29-2007, 02:01 PM
Wow, that is quite a statement.

What scares me most in some ways is not what President Bush has done, since at least some of that can be reversed by future leaders, but rather the apparent level of support in the American public for torture. That could lead us down a truly horrible path towards becoming more of a police state over the long term.

Kaa
10-29-2007, 02:01 PM
I wish someone would compile a list of ALL politicos who support such practices even if just averting their eyes...I expect the list is long...these people need to be systemetically driven from ALL public jobs of all types

In any event, they should NEVER be allowed to hide from public view


WASHINGTON - Most Americans and a majority of people in Britain, France and South Korea say torturing terrorism suspects is justified at least in rare instances, according to AP-Ipsos polling. ...

The polling, in the United States and eight of its closest allies, found that in Canada, Mexico and Germany people are divided on whether torture is ever justified. Most people opposed torture under any circumstances in Spain and Italy.

In America, 61 percent of those surveyed agreed torture is justified at least on rare occasions. Almost nine in 10 in South Korea and just over half in France and Britain felt that way.(http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10345320/)

Kaa

Phillip Allen
10-29-2007, 02:07 PM
I ain't one of em...

Keith Wilson
10-29-2007, 02:15 PM
US Law:
(18 U.S.C. 2340A)


As used in this chapter -

(1) ''torture'' means an act committed by a person acting under the color of law specifically intended to inflict severe physical or mental pain or suffering (other than pain or suffering incidental to lawful sanctions) upon another person within his custody or physical control;

(2) ''severe mental pain or suffering'' means the prolonged mental harm caused by or resulting from -

(A) the intentional infliction or threatened infliction of severe physical pain or suffering;

(B) the administration or application, or threatened administration or application, of mind-altering substances or other procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or the personality;

(C) the threat of imminent death; or

(D) the threat that another person will imminently be subjected to death, severe physical pain or suffering, or the administration or application of mind-altering substances or other procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or personality . . .
If "waterboarding" is not torture under this statute (2C), I can't imagine what would be.

Bruce Hooke
10-29-2007, 02:20 PM
(http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10345320/)

Kaa

I wish this article gave a bit more information about the poll results. The standard of "justified at least on rare occasions" could mean very different things to different people. To one person it could mean torture is justified on any terrorists we capture who we think could have useful information (after all, we don't have that many terrorists in custody, so someone could see torturing them as a rare use); to someone else it could mean they could envision a situation in with torture might be justified, but such situations are so rare as to be highly unlikely. If the more detailed survey data reveal that support for torture drops off very quickly once you start proposing using it in more than rare cases this would be reassuring, but the reverse results would be scary indeed.

In essence, the survey is asking what percentage of the population is willing to take a principle-based stand against torture. I would like to know as well how much of the population is unwilling to take a principle-based stand, but is willing to oppose torture on a more "practical" level. People tend to come up with the famous ticking-bomb scenario, which never actually occurs, and I suspect (hope?) that most people would come out in opposition to torture if you eliminated from the equation the situations that people can conjure up but that don't actually occur in real life.

For the record, I am in the camp that says torture is never justified.

Kaa
10-29-2007, 02:24 PM
US Law:
(18 U.S.C. 2340A)
If "waterboarding" is not torture under this statute (2C), I can't imagine what would be.

Oh, it USED to be quite illegal until recently. Consult http://www.pegc.us/archive/Articles/wallach_drop_by_drop_draft_20061016.pdf for details.

Kaa

Kaa
10-29-2007, 02:27 PM
If the more detailed survey data reveal that support for torture drops off very quickly once you start proposing using it in more than rare cases this would be reassuring

We don't know, of course, but I doubt that would happen.

Consider the Milgram experiments (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment) and the Stanford Prison experiment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment)

Kaa

ahp
10-29-2007, 03:39 PM
I understand the need to extract information, but from what I read torture is for amateurs and interrogation is for professionals. We have a amateur in the Oval Office, so what do we expect?

Paul G.
10-30-2007, 01:59 AM
I understand the need to extract information, but from what I read torture is for amateurs and interrogation is for professionals. We have a amateur in the Oval Office, so what do we expect?

you can expect the 4th Reich arriving as insidiously as a thief in the night. But unlike a thief, he and his kind are welcomed in the name of comfort and security. Do you really think Americans citizens are any different to German citizens in their ability to look the other way?

Anthony Zucker
10-30-2007, 07:08 AM
This is the most upsetting thread I've read. The subject article should be manditory reading for everyone, not just that sidestepper who is being vetted to be Attorney General.
I am going to forward it to everyone I know.

Tylerdurden
10-30-2007, 08:00 AM
People who support torture need to be shamed from their community's. Those who commit it put on trial. Those who allowed it hung right after conviction.

If one feels the pressing need to torture in order to protect others they need the power of their convictions to let them take the risk of a future trial by jury for their actions. There can be no other way about it, No soft margins.

Keith Wilson
10-30-2007, 08:56 AM
Mark, on this we agree. If we fight barbarians by becoming barbarians ourselves, why bother?

George.
10-30-2007, 10:14 AM
OK, just to be contrarian, now that I see that people are finally waking up about torture...

... there is a scenario where even I think torture could be justified. If someone is duly CONVICTED of terrorism, beyond reasonable doubt, by a transparent and fair court - not the kangaroo courts the US is trying to use - AND there are other members of his cell still at large, then he could be condemned to be waterboarded until he turns them in. After all, even if he doesn't have the information, he still deserves punishment.

John of Phoenix
10-30-2007, 10:39 AM
U.S. Constitution - Eighth Amendment

Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.

George.
10-30-2007, 10:50 AM
U.S. Constitution


That's SOOO pre-9-11...

Paul G.
10-30-2007, 02:19 PM
OK, just to be contrarian, now that I see that people are finally waking up about torture...

... there is a scenario where even I think torture could be justified. If someone is duly CONVICTED of terrorism, beyond reasonable doubt, by a transparent and fair court - not the kangaroo courts the US is trying to use - AND there are other members of his cell still at large, then he could be condemned to be waterboarded until he turns them in. After all, even if he doesn't have the information, he still deserves punishment.

Hey George. that is the biggest load of crapola Ive heard you say. Torture is torture in that it dehumanises the perpetrators and the victim. The ticking bomb scenario is rubbish, made up by hollywood for the most part. The person being tortured is likely to tell you whatever they think you want to hear, whether they are convicted or not. All it provides is a sadistic revengeful glee for a few sick people.

Whatever you sow you will definitely reap, and advocating torture means you accept it as a reasonable method for your enemies to use on you as well.

PatCox
10-30-2007, 02:56 PM
Someone needs to start making a big distinction between justification, which is a defense to a crime, and by the way, a non-exculpatory defense, and "policy justified."

I think it is possible for extreme measures of torture, and even murder, to be justifiable in certain circumstances. This means that they are stil and always will be crimes, but the criminal law will excuse the conduct in light of circumstances. There is nothing new in this, its been the law for decades. Its the law now. If there were a ticking nuke about to go off and torturing the sheik would save a city, the crime of torture would be justified and the person who did it would be found not guilty.

But thats not the same as saying torture is legal. Its not the same as saying in a broad sense, torture is justified as a policy simply as an information gathering tool because of the possibility that information that saves lives might be found. This is a very different conclusion.

Does anyone see the difference? The W and his grinning idiot lawyer Gonzalez seem to be deliberatelt conflating the justification defense against a criminal charge with an executive nullifcation of the crime itself.

They are very different things.

Tylerdurden
10-30-2007, 03:16 PM
Someone needs to start making a big distinction between justification, which is a defense to a crime, and by the way, a non-exculpatory defense, and "policy justified."

I think it is possible for extreme measures of torture, and even murder, to be justifiable in certain circumstances. This means that they are stil and always will be crimes, but the criminal law will excuse the conduct in light of circumstances. There is nothing new in this, its been the law for decades. Its the law now. If there were a ticking nuke about to go off and torturing the sheik would save a city, the crime of torture would be justified and the person who did it would be found not guilty.

But thats not the same as saying torture is legal. Its not the same as saying in a broad sense, torture is justified as a policy simply as an information gathering tool because of the possibility that information that saves lives might be found. This is a very different conclusion.

Does anyone see the difference? The W and his grinning idiot lawyer Gonzalez seem to be deliberatelt conflating the justification defense against a criminal charge with an executive nullifcation of the crime itself.

They are very different things.

Well said.

George.
10-30-2007, 03:46 PM
Hey George. that is the biggest load of crapola Ive heard you say.

You haven't thought it through. Here is an example: It's 2009, and Rummy has been captured, hiding under a burkha in Prince Bandar's yacht in Ibiza. He has been tried and convicted of crimes against humanity for Abu Ghraib etc., but he won't snitch on Dick and Bush, who are suspected of having that sixth nuke Mark has been telling us about stashed away somewhere. They mean to set it off during President Gore's world carbon tax summit before the treaty is signed (to Exxon's great relief), and blame it on Iran. The Interpol and the ICC are pretty sure Rummy knows where they are.

What's wrong with a little waterboarding in such a scenario? :D

PatCox
10-30-2007, 03:50 PM
"If one feels the pressing need to torture in order to protect others they need the power of their convictions to let them take the risk of a future trial by jury for their actions. There can be no other way about it, No soft margins."

Also well said, this is the key, you cannot condone torture in advance, though it might sometimes be pardonable in retrospect. But to make sure those making the judgment that it is justified are very, very sure of their judgment, the law should remain as it is, and they would then have to prove they were in fact justified. That is the only acceptable way to look at it.

I have often thought that Bush and particularly Gonzalez have been deliberately mixing these two different concepts. A reporter will ask if torture is justified, meaning have you authorized it generally, and W or Gonzo would answer in terms of its hypothetical assertion as a justification defense. Pretty obvious, too, they're not subtle.

Nicholas Carey
10-30-2007, 07:32 PM
US Law:
(18 U.S.C. 2340A)
If "waterboarding" is not torture under this statute (2C), I can't imagine what would be.We sentenced a Japanese waterboarding team to 15 years hard in 1946 for the war crime of waterboarding.

For those that don't see waterboarding as torture: we sentenced Japanese soldiers (and civilians) to 15-25 years in prison for using this "enhanced interrogation technique" on American PWs.

[the following largely taken from an upcoming article, Drop By Drop: Foregetting the History of Water Torture in U.S. Courts (http://www.pegc.us/archive/Articles/wallach_drop_by_drop_draft_20061016.pdf), by Judge Evan Wallach, ex-Judge Advocate of the Army, in the Columbia Journal of Transnational Law.]

In United States of America v. Hideji Nakamura, Yukio Asano, Seitara Hata, and Takeo Kita (U.S. Military Commission, Yokohama, 1-28 May, 1947. NARA Records, NND 735027 RG 153, Entry 143 Box 1025):

The charge and specifications against Hata were:
Charge: That the following member of the Imperial Japanese Army with his then known title: Seitaro Hata, Surgeon First Lieutenant, at the times and places set forth in the specifications hereto attached, and during a time of war between the United States of America and its Allies and Dependencies, and Japan, did violate the Laws and Customs of War.
Specification 3. That in or about July or August, 1943, at Fukoka Prisoner of War Branch Camp Number Three, Fukuoka ken, Kyushu, Japan, the accused Seitaro Hata, did willfully and unlawfully, brutally mistreat and torture Morris O. Killough, an American Prisoner of War, by beating and kicking him; by fastening him on a stretcher and pouring water up his nostrils.
Specification 5. That on or about 15 May, 1944, at Fukoka Prisoner of War Branch Camp Number Three, Fukuoka ken, Kyushu, Japan, the accused Seitaro Hata, did, willfully and unlawfully, brutally mistreat and torture Thomas B. Armitage, William O Cash and Munroe Dave Woodall, American Prisoners of War by beating and kicking them; by forcing water into their mouths and noses; and by pressing lighted cigarettes against their bodies.1st Lt Seitero Hata was convicted and sentenced to 25 years hard labor (http://ist-socrates.berkeley.edu/%7Ewarcrime/Japan/Yokohama/Reviews/Yokohama_Review_Hata.htm).

The charge and specifications against Asano were:
Charge: That between 1 April, 1943 and 31 August, 1944, at Fukoka Prisoner of War Branch Camp Number 3, Kyushu, Japan, the accused Yukio Asana, then a civilian serving as an interpreter with the Armed Forces of Japan, a nation then at war with the United States of America and its Allies, did violate the Laws and Customs of War.
Specification 1: That in or about July or August, 1943, the accused Yukio Asano, did willfully and unlawfully, brutally mistreat and torture Morris O. Killough, an American Prisoner of War, by beating and kicking him; by fastening him on a stretcher and pouring water up his nostrils.
Specification 2: That on or about 15 May, 1944, at Fukoka Prisoner of War Branch Camp Number 3, Kyushu, Japan, the accused Yukio Asano, did, willfully and unlawfully, brutally mistreat and torture Thomas B. Armitage, William O Cash and Munroe Dave Woodall, American Prisoners of War by beating and kicking them, by forcing water into their mouths and noses; and by pressing lighted cigarettes against their bodies.
Specification 5. That between 1 April, 1943 and 31 December, 1943, the accused Yukio Asano, did, willfully and unlawfully, brutally mistreat and torture John Henry Burton, an American Prisoner of War, by beating him; and by fastening him head downward on a stretcher and forcing water into his nose.Yukio Asano, a civilian, was convicted and sentenced to 15 years hard labor (http://ist-socrates.berkeley.edu/%7Ewarcrime/Japan/Yokohama/Reviews/Yokohama_Review_Asano.htm).

The charge and specifications against Kita were:
Charge: That the following member of the Imperial Japanese Army with his the known title: Takeo Kita, Sergeant Major, at the times and places set forth in the specifications hereto attached, and during a time of war between the United States.... and Japan, did violate the Laws and Customs of War.
Specification 2: That between 1 April, 1943 and 31 August, 1944, at Fukoka Prisoner of War Branch Camp Number 3, Kyushu, Japan, the accused Takeo Kita, did, willfully and unlawfully, brutally mistreat and torture John Henry Burton, an American Prisoner of War, by beating him and by forcing water into his nose.
Specification 4: That on or about 15 May, 1944, at Fukoka Prisoner of War Branch Camp Number 3, Kyushu, Japan, the accused Takeo Kita, did, willfully and unlawfully, brutally mistreat and torture Thomas B. Armitage, William O Cash and Munroe Dave Woodall, American Prisoners of War by beating them, forcing water into their mouths and noses, and by pressing lighted cigarettes against their bodies.Sgt Major Kita, was convicted and sentenced to 15 years hard labor (http://ist-socrates.berkeley.edu/%7Ewarcrime/Japan/Yokohama/Reviews/Yokohama_Review_Kita.htm).

Genji Mineno, a civilian employee of the Japanese Imperial Army, was tried separately for the same sequence of events in a separate trial in Yokohama (Military Commission Case Docket No 47 Tried at Yokohama 25-28 June, 1946. NARA NND 735027 Record Group 153, Entry 145, Box 151). The charges and specifications were:
Charge: That between 1 Feb 1943 and 1 Sept 1945 at POW Camp No. 3, Kokura, Fukuoka, Japan, Genji Mineno...did willfully and unlawfully commit cruel, inhuman and brutal acts, atrocities and other offenses against certain American and Allied Prisoners of War, in violation of the Laws and Customs of War.
Specification 5. That in or about August, 1943, the accused, Genji Mineno, together with other persons did, willfully and unlawfully, brutally mistreat and torture George De Witt Stoddard and William O. Cash, American Prisoners of War, by strapping them to a stretcher and pouring water down their nostrils.
Specification 9. That in or about 15 May, 1944, the accused, Genji Mineno, did, willfully and unlawfully, brutally mistreat and torture Thomas B. Armitage, William O. Cash, and Munroe Dave Woodall, American Prisoners of War, by beating and kicking them, by forcing water into their mouths and noses, and by pressing lighted cigarettes against their bodies.Genji Meneno, another civilian, was convicted and sentenced to 20 years hard labor (http://ist-socrates.berkeley.edu/%7Ewarcrime/Japan/Yokohama/Reviews/Yokohama_Review_Minemo.htm).

In related trials, summarized at the UC/Berkely War Crimes Study Center (http://socrates.berkeley.edu/%7Ewarcrime/index.htm),
Hiroyuki Morita was convicted and sentenced to 15 years hard labor (http://ist-socrates.berkeley.edu/%7Ewarcrime/Japan/Yokohama/Reviews/Yokohama_Review_Morita.htm) for using other or George Bush's favored "enhanced interrogation techniques" -- so-called stress positions and hypothermia. Specifications: "causing POW to stand for a long period of time with their hand extended above their heads or w/o adequate clothing in winter weather; suspending POWs from a tree by their arms." The JA reduced his sentence by 2 years for "unusual acts of consideration and kindness performed by the accused in certain instances".
Sergeant Masatoshi Sawamura was convicted and sentenced to 30 years hard labor (http://ist-socrates.berkeley.edu/%7Ewarcrime/Japan/Yokohama/Reviews/Yokohama_Review_Sawamura.htm) for, among other things, "forcing PW to stand at attention for a long period of time, sometimes in cold weather without sufficient clothing and on one occasion, in the nude; throwing a bucket of ice cold water over PW in cold weather;water treatment which entailed forcing water down PWs throat and nostrils using among others a hose, tubes; picking up and throwing PW to the ground; banging head against a wall; raising and lowering a sword on a PWs neck in an effort to make him give information."And the "I didn't specifically authorize it" defense doesn't work: we hanged officers for "command responsibility" in the above offenses. There's a reason Rummy had to hightail it out of France the other day, after a criminal complaint was sworn against him for torture.

Paul G.
10-30-2007, 10:17 PM
We sentenced a Japanese waterboarding team to 15 years hard in 1946 for the war crime of waterboarding.

For those that don't see waterboarding as torture: we sentenced Japanese soldiers (and civilians) to 15-25 years in prison for using this "enhanced interrogation technique" on American PWs.

[the following largely taken from an upcoming article, Drop By Drop: Foregetting the History of Water Torture in U.S. Courts (http://www.pegc.us/archive/Articles/wallach_drop_by_drop_draft_20061016.pdf), by Judge Evan Wallach, ex-Judge Advocate of the Army, in the Columbia Journal of Transnational Law.]

In United States of America v. Hideji Nakamura, Yukio Asano, Seitara Hata, and Takeo Kita (U.S. Military Commission, Yokohama, 1-28 May, 1947. NARA Records, NND 735027 RG 153, Entry 143 Box 1025):

The charge and specifications against Hata were:
Charge: That the following member of the Imperial Japanese Army with his then known title: Seitaro Hata, Surgeon First Lieutenant, at the times and places set forth in the specifications hereto attached, and during a time of war between the United States of America and its Allies and Dependencies, and Japan, did violate the Laws and Customs of War.
Specification 3. That in or about July or August, 1943, at Fukoka Prisoner of War Branch Camp Number Three, Fukuoka ken, Kyushu, Japan, the accused Seitaro Hata, did willfully and unlawfully, brutally mistreat and torture Morris O. Killough, an American Prisoner of War, by beating and kicking him; by fastening him on a stretcher and pouring water up his nostrils.
Specification 5. That on or about 15 May, 1944, at Fukoka Prisoner of War Branch Camp Number Three, Fukuoka ken, Kyushu, Japan, the accused Seitaro Hata, did, willfully and unlawfully, brutally mistreat and torture Thomas B. Armitage, William O Cash and Munroe Dave Woodall, American Prisoners of War by beating and kicking them; by forcing water into their mouths and noses; and by pressing lighted cigarettes against their bodies.1st Lt Seitero Hata was convicted and sentenced to 25 years hard labor (http://ist-socrates.berkeley.edu/%7Ewarcrime/Japan/Yokohama/Reviews/Yokohama_Review_Hata.htm).

The charge and specifications against Asano were:
Charge: That between 1 April, 1943 and 31 August, 1944, at Fukoka Prisoner of War Branch Camp Number 3, Kyushu, Japan, the accused Yukio Asana, then a civilian serving as an interpreter with the Armed Forces of Japan, a nation then at war with the United States of America and its Allies, did violate the Laws and Customs of War.
Specification 1: That in or about July or August, 1943, the accused Yukio Asano, did willfully and unlawfully, brutally mistreat and torture Morris O. Killough, an American Prisoner of War, by beating and kicking him; by fastening him on a stretcher and pouring water up his nostrils.
Specification 2: That on or about 15 May, 1944, at Fukoka Prisoner of War Branch Camp Number 3, Kyushu, Japan, the accused Yukio Asano, did, willfully and unlawfully, brutally mistreat and torture Thomas B. Armitage, William O Cash and Munroe Dave Woodall, American Prisoners of War by beating and kicking them, by forcing water into their mouths and noses; and by pressing lighted cigarettes against their bodies.
Specification 5. That between 1 April, 1943 and 31 December, 1943, the accused Yukio Asano, did, willfully and unlawfully, brutally mistreat and torture John Henry Burton, an American Prisoner of War, by beating him; and by fastening him head downward on a stretcher and forcing water into his nose.Yukio Asano, a civilian, was convicted and sentenced to 15 years hard labor (http://ist-socrates.berkeley.edu/%7Ewarcrime/Japan/Yokohama/Reviews/Yokohama_Review_Asano.htm).

The charge and specifications against Kita were:
Charge: That the following member of the Imperial Japanese Army with his the known title: Takeo Kita, Sergeant Major, at the times and places set forth in the specifications hereto attached, and during a time of war between the United States.... and Japan, did violate the Laws and Customs of War.
Specification 2: That between 1 April, 1943 and 31 August, 1944, at Fukoka Prisoner of War Branch Camp Number 3, Kyushu, Japan, the accused Takeo Kita, did, willfully and unlawfully, brutally mistreat and torture John Henry Burton, an American Prisoner of War, by beating him and by forcing water into his nose.
Specification 4: That on or about 15 May, 1944, at Fukoka Prisoner of War Branch Camp Number 3, Kyushu, Japan, the accused Takeo Kita, did, willfully and unlawfully, brutally mistreat and torture Thomas B. Armitage, William O Cash and Munroe Dave Woodall, American Prisoners of War by beating them, forcing water into their mouths and noses, and by pressing lighted cigarettes against their bodies.Sgt Major Kita, was convicted and sentenced to 15 years hard labor (http://ist-socrates.berkeley.edu/%7Ewarcrime/Japan/Yokohama/Reviews/Yokohama_Review_Kita.htm).

Genji Mineno, a civilian employee of the Japanese Imperial Army, was tried separately for the same sequence of events in a separate trial in Yokohama (Military Commission Case Docket No 47 Tried at Yokohama 25-28 June, 1946. NARA NND 735027 Record Group 153, Entry 145, Box 151). The charges and specifications were:
Charge: That between 1 Feb 1943 and 1 Sept 1945 at POW Camp No. 3, Kokura, Fukuoka, Japan, Genji Mineno...did willfully and unlawfully commit cruel, inhuman and brutal acts, atrocities and other offenses against certain American and Allied Prisoners of War, in violation of the Laws and Customs of War.
Specification 5. That in or about August, 1943, the accused, Genji Mineno, together with other persons did, willfully and unlawfully, brutally mistreat and torture George De Witt Stoddard and William O. Cash, American Prisoners of War, by strapping them to a stretcher and pouring water down their nostrils.
Specification 9. That in or about 15 May, 1944, the accused, Genji Mineno, did, willfully and unlawfully, brutally mistreat and torture Thomas B. Armitage, William O. Cash, and Munroe Dave Woodall, American Prisoners of War, by beating and kicking them, by forcing water into their mouths and noses, and by pressing lighted cigarettes against their bodies.Genji Meneno, another civilian, was convicted and sentenced to 20 years hard labor (http://ist-socrates.berkeley.edu/%7Ewarcrime/Japan/Yokohama/Reviews/Yokohama_Review_Minemo.htm).

In related trials, summarized at the UC/Berkely War Crimes Study Center (http://socrates.berkeley.edu/%7Ewarcrime/index.htm),
Hiroyuki Morita was convicted and sentenced to 15 years hard labor (http://ist-socrates.berkeley.edu/%7Ewarcrime/Japan/Yokohama/Reviews/Yokohama_Review_Morita.htm) for using other or George Bush's favored "enhanced interrogation techniques" -- so-called stress positions and hypothermia. Specifications: "causing POW to stand for a long period of time with their hand extended above their heads or w/o adequate clothing in winter weather; suspending POWs from a tree by their arms." The JA reduced his sentence by 2 years for "unusual acts of consideration and kindness performed by the accused in certain instances".
Sergeant Masatoshi Sawamura was convicted and sentenced to 30 years hard labor (http://ist-socrates.berkeley.edu/%7Ewarcrime/Japan/Yokohama/Reviews/Yokohama_Review_Sawamura.htm) for, among other things, "forcing PW to stand at attention for a long period of time, sometimes in cold weather without sufficient clothing and on one occasion, in the nude; throwing a bucket of ice cold water over PW in cold weather;water treatment which entailed forcing water down PWs throat and nostrils using among others a hose, tubes; picking up and throwing PW to the ground; banging head against a wall; raising and lowering a sword on a PWs neck in an effort to make him give information."And the "I didn't specifically authorize it" defense doesn't work: we hanged officers for "command responsibility" in the above offenses. There's a reason Rummy had to hightail it out of France the other day, after a criminal complaint was sworn against him for torture.

George Orwell said it all "four legs good two legs better" btw where are all the rabid rightwing christian bush apologists on this thread?

and George. I stick by my assertion, the ticking bomb is bull**** and I dont care whether its rummy cheney binladen or elvis. torture is a crime against humanity and it is not justified unless you are prepared to get it performed on yourself, family members, countrymen when you are on the losing side.

George.
10-31-2007, 07:08 AM
Paul, it was a joke!