Head recommendations

[CJ]

Okay, I'm sure there are a lot of both satisfied and dissatisfied people that have installed heads on their boats. I need to decide which type and model of toilet I'm going to install. I will have a black water holding tank (about 12 gallons) that will have the ability to be discharged overboard and be pumped out. I'll stress LOW MAINTENANCE, TROUBLE FREE, and capable of flushing large - well - least prone to plug up. I'm leaning towards manual flush and heard that Lavac's Zenith is tough to beat, although the bowl looks quite small. This is my first installed system, stepping (up?) from a porta-potti. What is the best option on the market today?

[paladin]

The Lavac is the first choice after the Baby Blake......I have the Baby Blake coupled with the Electro-San system, trouble free for the last 6 years....no problems. There are articles IIRC by the "head Lady" or something like that....maybe "toilet Lady"...(the memory izz the second thing to go and I can't remember the first) but the articles are what I used as guidance and it has worked out well...
The only difference.....I ran a 2 inch diameter semi flex hose into the bilge near the electro-san, hidden behind some cabinetry in the head....to the deck..built a low profile dorade box and installed a Nicro solar vent set to "exhaust".......there's enough leaks around the various cabinetry and cabin sole areas so that fresh air constatly is pulled through the main cabin, into the bilge, and exhausted on deck....no bad head/bilge odors to upset the more feminine crew.....now if'n I could just potty train the dawg..........

[Figment]

LaVac. There simply is no substitute.

True, bowl is smallish in appearance, but I've yet to come across a situation where that was a detriment.

Chuck's thinking of Peggy Hall "The HeadMistress". She's a member of this forum, though I haven't seen her post in quite some time.

[Ian Wright]

[Peggie Hall wrote a book. You need it. Buy it.

http://69.20.93.241/store/customer/product.php?productid=40&cat=&page=1

It will set your mind free and tell you all you need to know.
Be nice,,,,,, she's a pal of mine.

IanW

[ 10-08-2004, 02:32 PM: Message edited by: Ian Wright ]

[Mike Vogdes]

12 gallon holding tank is a little on the small side, you will find yourself looking for a pumpout often. Chucks setup sounds like a good way to go, perhaps you have enough 12v power to go that route?

[kc8pql]

Get the Lavac. You'll never regret it.

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

What Chuck said. First choice Baby Blake, second choice Lavac. There is no third choice.

The Baby and the Lavac are both made by Blakes; the reason for putting the Baby first is that it uses less water to flush than the Lavac, which can be an advantage if you have a holding tank.

The Baby aboard my boat is 50-something, like its owner, but it would take more than a spares kit and a spanner or to to rebuild me to "as-new"!

[JimConlin]

I had an old (ca. 1962) Wilcox Crittenden 'Winner' head for 25 years without any problems. All bronze, 2-1/2" pump. Every few years, i'd tear it down and replace the whatever soft parts (glands, leathers, choker valve) looked iffy. I think i replaced the pump rod. It was still going strong at age 40.
I think that the only bronze head they make now is the 'Skipper' which is a very big and bulky item, but i've heard only praise for it.
Wilcox has been through some changes in recent years, so YMMV.

[paladin]

CJ......I looked into my junk files.....I have found the data that came with the head and all the installation instructions/recommendations...
I can scan them and e-mail or put them on a cd as a word file, TIF or JPEG or MS Publisher file and forward them to you if you wish...or just copy them and send them by snail mail....whatever your decision send an e-mail with your snail mail address and I'll be happy to oblige.....

[Spissgatter W-9]

Is there a source for the "Baby Blake: in the US? If so, could you please direct me? thanks.
geo

[CJ]

Defender Industries in Waterford, CT sells them. You can view them on their web site. Current price is $2,130.

[paladin]

Save a lotta money.......Get a cheap round trip ticket to Heathrow.......have the head and spares delivered in a box (don't take anything except some overnight clothes in case of a problem)...put the head on the airplane as your baggage......excess weight MIGHT cost you an extra 20 bucks maybe no.......expect to pay import duty of about 30 bucks or less.......mine cost less than $600 delivered to the airport, no VAT.......and ya getta go to London.....and still save money....

[Aramas]

The Lavac has the simplest, most foolproof mechanism this side of a bucket (basically a bowl and a bilge pump) - it's much simpler than a porta-potti. How do people endure the stink of those things?

The Baby Blake is a well proven classic, but still has all that wacky Heath-Robinson plumbing. Perhaps I'm just peculiar, but a head is not something I care to potter with. smile.gif

[ 10-10-2004, 12:06 PM: Message edited by: Aramas ]

[Bob Cleek]

Gee, I GAVE AWAY a Wilcox Crittenden Imperial 51 a couple of years ago. It was just gathering dust in the shop. I have one on my boat and it's been fine, save for the usual tear down and reassemble refit every few years. BUT... if I were building a new boat and wasn't sailing it on freshwater (drinking water) resevoirs and such, I'd SERIOUSLY consider the "bucket and chuck it" approach. I know there will be screams from the econazis, but hey, how often do you really take a dump on your boat? The rest of the time, you pee off the lee shrouds, no? For the squeamish, (or anal retentive) put a recycled plastic garbage bag from the supermarket in your bucket and tie it up and bring it home. I really just cannot see the point of saving sewage aboard in holding tanks. I'm a big supporter of clean water, no question, but given the amount of boater-related poop as against everything else in the environment, it is an infinetesmially small amount, easily within the limits of what nature can recycle naturally. There are a lot more marine mamals pooping in the water where I sail than there are boaters, I can guarantee that. I just can't see the sense of putting $2,500 into a mechanical system that simply saves poop so you can pump it ashore where it will go through the sewage system and right back into the water. If you can't deal with "roughing it" a bit, maybe sailing isn't your cup of tea. If the econazis give you grief, ask the backpackers if they pack their poop out? Don't think so!

[NormMessinger]

Pee off the lee shrouds? Phyllis wants to know how that is done, lady like, you know.

How do the boaters on the Green and Lower Colorado River hand it? The rules are pee in the river, carry out the solids. But do they?

[Concordia..41]

Lee shrouds - egads - I always thought that was what the mizzen deck was for??!! :eek: :eek: "Ladies, eyes forward please" and all that ;)

I'm with Phyllis as to little actual experience, but I recall several serious discussions as to the mizzen's practicality as a storm head :D

- M

[ 10-10-2004, 08:17 PM: Message edited by: Concordia..41 ]

[Spissgatter W-9]

Bob, as perhaps you are unaware there are folks whose livelyhood depends upon the harvest of shellfish. The standard is very stringent (monthly sampling and a mean of the last 30 samples). It is also very sensitive a few bad tests will result in an immediate closure that will take nearly 3 years to reverse. Shellfish beds are being closed with increasing frequency. This is not because of an increase in marine mamals. Look at the Washington State Dept of Health website. The closures are where there are concentrations of people.

Though fecal coliform is shed by warm blooded animals and not just humans as you noted, it is used as an indicator because of its associations with human viruses. It is very expensive and difficult to test directly for the diseases. The test was originally developed when folks were dying from cholera after drinking from a well contaminated with human sewage.

I respect the shellfish resource and the fishermen whose livelyhood depends on their ability to harvest and market. I also don't want to live in filth or eat contaminated food. Asking folks to hold their waste and pump it out as provided by the law doesn't seem a big infringement on freedom. It doesn't make someone less of a sailor. Neither does it make me and most of society who feel the same way "econazis".

Finally, I hope you and folks who think like you in this regard will kindly stay out of the Puget Sound.

:mad:

[Aramas]

Almost all of the ecolli in built-up areas comes from dog crap being washed into the waterways with storm water - if you want to clean up your waterways then kill a dog or a thousand. Don't get me started on cats - they're incredibly filthy smile.gif

[Spissgatter W-9]

Aramas, you are correct. The sources of E Coli abound. Conditional closures following significant rainfall events recognize the contributions from domestic and wildlife. While we can't do much about wildlife, we do have the ability to manage waste from our pets and ourselves. My point to Mr. Cleek was that intentional "chucking" and "dumping" is irresponsible. It is not inconsequential nor harmless as he suggests particularly if everyone adopts such a cavalier attitude.
George Boggs

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Thank you both; I have learned something.

[kulas44]

Aramas, you rule, go guy!!!! I haved owned and used dogs my entire life, being an avid hunter, right now I have 19. My dogs don't bark and keep my neighbors awake all night and if they work hard and do a good job they get taken care of until they die. I like dogs but most people just OWN dogs and the waste a dog produces is incredible, it doesn't break down easily and most people just hose it into the system. The world, and the U.S. in particular, has way to many dogs. Nothing is worse than being at the marina and listening to a yapping dog all night.As far as cats go, one is to many.

[Bob Cleek]

Rest assured, I am rather well acquainted with commercial acquaculture, having once had a passing professional acquaintance with the business. I don't suggest that people dump in an area where there are commercial shellfish beds. Still and all, in my experience, as said, the poop-associated pollutants are always traced to malfunctioning sewage treatment plants, improperly perking septic systems, broken mains and animal waste in storm drain systems. (And, once upon a time, liveaboards and houseboats that weren't hooked up to the city systems.) Never saw anybody who could demonstrate that boaters could really make a dent poop-wise. Take a busy Sunday on SF Bay, count the boats, make a wild guess at how many people on board are actually going to take a crap while they are sailing. Divide the estimated mass of that into the amount of water and tell me how many parts per million. I could still be convinced, but so far, my own math ain't doing it. Frankly, the whoo-ha over MSD's is simply a "feel good" thing that lets politicians say they are doing something for the environment when all they are doing is laying it on a small and, from their perspective, unimportant segment of the voters. How about some similar legislation that addressed what the petrochemical industry does to the environment! Oh, gosh, no! Can't have that! Those guys have lobbyists and PACs and stuff like that!

BTW, the purpose of the lee shrounds should have been obvious. First, you don't ever want to pee to windward. Second, you can wrap your arms around the shrouds, lean into them, and have both hands free for zippers and aiming. A backstay doesn't give you the same stability and you are always worrying about what the boom is going to do. Then again, there is much to recommend self-bailing cockpits, particularly if you are single-handing. Remember, eight-five percent of all "man-overboard" drowning victims are recovered with their zippers down!

[Peter Malcolm Jardine]

2000 dollars for a toilet? Yoicks. I have a Groco ($400) and it was cheap and works fine. I warn people about putting things in the toilet. I have a 35 gallon holding tank. I guess I don't spend as much time in the head as some folks.

[kc8pql]

From Defender:
Lavac Popular - $378.99
Lavac Zenith - $571.99
They have sales now and then. I got a Zenith for
$299. about five years ago. I think they are as foolproof as a head can get.

[Spissgatter W-9]

Mr. Cleek "traced" would be the operative word. The sources you refer to are relatively easy to monitor compared to boats. If we count boats and do the math as you suggest, the numbers get pretty big fast. Just because they can't be traced to a particular boat(s) doesn't mean it is harmless. Rather, it makes it difficult to remediate absent more draconian measures than depending upon good stewardship and individual responsibility. Also, selective dumping or chucking isn't a solution because the influence of wind, tides, currents and fresh water lenses makes predicting where the turd will end up specious indeed.

In this State (Washington) there are a lot of folks who work real hard and spend a lot of money both on land and off to guarrantee the safety of the shellfish we market or harvest for our own consumption. We also like to recreate on our beaches and don't appreciate crap floating in on the waves. So sociopathic sailors will hopefully find other waters to foul.

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

I should declare an interest! We regularly eat cockles and mussels from our own little estuary, which has some 3,000 boats moored in it, and the coastline of East Anglia has a noted shellfish industry, espescially the Colchester oyster fishery, which goes back to Roman times.

The UK has no holding tank legislation and the number of boats has increased perhaps tenfold since frozen snot was invented.

Oysters, which are eaten alive, are transferred to a cleaning tank before sale; other shellfish are not. Does it make a difference?

[Spissgatter W-9]

Moving shellfish to a tank or to a bed where water quality standards are met are both acceptable ways of purging bacterial contaminants. As you can imagine handling the shellfish twice or building and maintaining a tank both add to the cost. There are also additional sampling expenses associated with these methods. Keeping the waste out in the first place is cheaper for the consumer. In this respect chucking and dumping doesn't eliminate but passes the problem on to others.

[NormMessinger]

If there is E. coli in a shellfish is it possible to determine if it is from humans or animals and which animals, say dog or sea lion?

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Thanks; actually the a Colchester native (ostrea edulis) costs a pound. That's for one oyster . (That's in the Company Shed; fly them to Hong Kong and serve them in the Peninsula Hotel and you will pay more!) So the additional cost of transferring them from laying to tank to table is easily absorbed!

[NormMessinger]

HOLY SMOKES! With oysters costing a pound each I'm surprised England can maintain it's population. Or is it not true what they say about oysters and virility?

[Bob Cleek]

Well, Spizzgatter, if you eat enough roughage you shouldn't have problems with "floaters" and, hence, nothing should be floating ashore! LOL

Or... like I said in the first place, line the bucket with a plastic bag and at the end of the day, tie it up and toss it ashore.

As for shellfish, hey, a little e.coli shouldn't hurt once you've got a good immunity built up. Paralytic shellfish poisoning is a much more significant risk. (I've had it... pretty wierd to have all your extremities start to go numb!) We test our harvest here to make sure that they don't have it. That's a lot easier than not harvesting in months ending in "R's" or whatever the old wives' tale was. Me, I buy them for barbeques by the gunny sack. 100 mediums (good sized Pacific Oysters) run about forty bucks. Less than 50 cents each. Fresh enough that they twitch when you squirt lemon on 'em!

[Spissgatter W-9]

I hope CJ doesn't mind these diversions on why we want to spend so much on waste handling.

In answer to Norm's question, there is some work demonstrating that by looking at the RNA of the E.Coli bacteria it is possible to distinguish between sources. This sounds great but in practice you need to create a library for all the warm blooded animals to compare against humans, racoons, dogs, cats... on and on. If the library isn't exhaustive then the results return a big percentage of "unknown" sources. As you can imagine, it gets pretty expensive.

Another way emerging to attribute to humans or livestock appears to be screening for pharmacutical resistance. Concentrated livestock operations are treated liberally with antibiotics. Humans use different ones. So screening samples for which bacteria persist seems to permit identification of source because of the association and anticipated resistance. For watersheds where there are a lot of dairy cows,(like ours) and humans it may prove to show which or the proportion of each contributing to the presence of bacteria. This could refine remediation efforts. We are contemplating a grant to perhaps test the efficacy of this in our local watershed.

While the existing standard (E.Coli) is fraught with shortcomings , it is not likely to change soon. The standard has been adopted by international treaty. To reverse or switch would involve significant effort.

Bob, yeah our dairy farmers probably have enough tolerance to eat a cow pie sandwich without any ill effects. They too don't know what the fuss is about either. But we know that some members of the E.Coli are deadly of course (a la Burger King a few yrs ago ... come to thing about it I think it was here in the Seattle) and the major concern is over the other diseases associated with the bacteria nasty things like hepatitis, cholera and the like. It is a good thing all the heads don't cost $2,100 or we would probably have a pretty potent stew, Either that or plastic bags and buckets would skyrocket in price like the price of gas.

[Ex-Oceangoddess]

I suppose I'm a little late to the table, but I recall being able to purchase a PAR marine head for about $170 CDN. Not fancy, but you can always get a rehab kit for the soft parts, probably need replacing every 3 years or so, and it works just fine. I've put two of these in boats, and the last one was still in fighting trim after 10 years.

[Jim Pooler]

This being my first post on this site, I would much rather have posted on a different topic but you hit on something that has been a pet peeve of mine. I live in the Puget Sound also. The marina is my home. I am not a proponent of dumping raw sewage from my boat but I am tired of hearing how boaters somehow are a major contributer to the pollution when waste treatment plants are regularly dumping millions of gallons of RAW sewage into the Puget Sound. Here is an example of the problems as taken from pugetsound.org (http://www.pugetsound.org/sewage/report/discharge.html) . Although this is old, this stuff still happens. Just the Bremerton overflow alone at a measily 313,000 gallons is the equivalent of 6260 boats with 50 gallon holding tanks dumping a full load. The Edmonds event you could change that number to 160,000 boats in just 2 days. I love the Puget Sound and want it to be clean just like most. I just don't like the finger pointed at me when the big problem goes mostly unfixed. I promise my next post to be less of a rant. Honest smile.gif



Here are a few examples of bypass problems in Washington:
</font> In extremely wet weather, the Renton sewage treatment plant overflows into the Green River. The anticipated overflow in the year 2005 will be 85 million gallons per day during heavy rains, up from 5 million gallons per day currently. </font> In just five months (January 1994 through May 1994), the Bremerton facility had eight bypass events due to mechanical breakdowns, releasing approximately 313,000 gallons of raw sewage. Some of the untreated discharge flowed over land to nearby bays and lakes. </font> During the January 1992 Inaugural Day Storm, all power to the Edmonds plant failed. Over 8 million gallons of raw sewage were discharged into Puget Sound in a 16-hour period. </font>Combined sewer overflows
In Washington, King County Metro and the City of Seattle discharge an estimated total of 2.399 billion gallons (9.1 million cubic metres) each year through combined sewage overflows alone into Elliott Bay, the Duwamish River, the Ballard Ship Canal and various points in Puget Sound. Mount Vernon discharges, on average, 13% of its total inflow to the Skagit River, the premier salmon river in Western Washington.

[Jim Pooler]

Do those Lavac's work better or are they just more trouble free. They sure look nice. I don't have much trouble getting stuff to the tank with the old Raritans I have and they are easy to rebuild but the pump housings are all plastic. I wouldn't recommend them for someone else. I guess they are like the K-mart brand when I comes to marine heads.

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

A note on oysters, in response to Norm Messenger and Bob Cleek!

The oysters that are one pound each are Colchester Natives (ostrea edulis) and these are the ones that we export to the best restaurants in Paris, Hong Kong, and anywhere else where diners are willing to pay a lot of money.

We also grow "pacifics" (gigas) which grow much faster, are bigger, and have quite a different shape shell. These are the oysters that Bob and Norm are talking about. They don't spat in our climate; we have to import the spat from the States and lay it. You can eat these year round.

The Native, on the other hand, spats between May and August; there is therefore a "close season", to allow them to breed, whilst there is an "r" in the month. This idea got disconnected from oysters and applied to all shellfish during the Victorian era and I speculate that this was because people in towns were eating shellfish brought up to market and the hot weather did not help their keeping qualities in the days before refrigeration.

If you see "Colchester Natives" or "Pyefleets" on a restaurant menu, and you or your host can afford it, try some; you will notice what the fuss is all about.

[Figment]

Originally posted by Jim Pooler:
Do those Lavac's work better or are they just more trouble free. Speaking for myself: the attraction is that they're trouble-free. In terms of operation, one head is probably just as good as any other when they're fresh out of the box.

If anything, one could say that the lavac actually has a bit of a flaw in its operation.... it takes a few mintues after a flush for the vacuum pressure to abate enough to open the lid again. Many is the time I've wished there were a pressure-relief valve I could open while I'm hopping up and down on one leg after the wife has overzealously pumped her flush.

I still wholeheartedly reccommend the lavac, but nothing in this world is perfect.

[Matt J.]

Well, better late than never...

RARUS has a Raritan head... rebuilt it last year. Fun stuff. A rainy day project. The pump housing had developed a leak... so it wasn't fun to rebuild the head, clean it up, or clean the bilge.

I'd love to have a Baby Blake, but the $$$$... :eek: I'm afraid the, um, waste doesn't know the difference... Maybe I could talk Jenny into flying to London for a new head... smile.gif

[willmarsh3]

After dealing for hours with a constantly leaking, clogged up Jabsco head on my Wittholz ketch and the attendant stinky mess :( , I just ordered a Lavac. I can't wait to install this and be done with the problems. Just looking at the exploded parts diagram it appears it wont leak and will be much harder to block up.

Will

[ahp]

I may have stated on this forum before the interesting fact that the E. Coli count in Chesapeake Bay is much higher in the winter than in the summer. Why when all the yachts have gone home?

Because in the winter Chesapeake Bay becomes the home of 50,000 swans, about a million geese, and many millions of ducks. Diaper the ducks?

I can remember when I was a child, about 1940, that I could see down through quite a few feet of Chesapeake Bay, at Oxford. Not now. The primary reason seems to be the agricultural fertilizer leaching out of the adjacent farm land.

[Spissgatter W-9]

Jim & AHP,
Please don't let my urging that boaters take their responsiblity in earnest or that they can make a significant contribution to bacterial pollution suggest that they are the primary source. As you detail waste water treatment plant, failing septic systems, livestock and pets arguably much exceed the contributions from boats.

Having said this, we must recognize that boats have an important role to play since waste disposal is a volitional act within the captain's controll. With regard to the waste water treatment plants in the Puget Sound, you may be pleased to note that in the past year the Wash Dept of Ecology made significant grants and loans (tens of millions) to cities in an effort to address the excursions you identified. It is good news and we need more of it. Now if the City of Victoria in BC, our neighbor to the north, would address the direct discharge of raw, untreated sewage into the the Strait of Juan de Fuca.....

Chesapeak Bay is an interesting place having just returned from the 12th National Non-point Pollution convention at Ocean City MD. It is in pitiful shape being the outfall of seven states with huge population of people, cows, chickens and pigs. Excess nutrients are affecting water quality. Soils on the adjoining penninsulas are coarse, rainfall is high causing excess nutrients to wash away either on surface or percolate into groundwater. The Delmarva Penninsula is produces more poultry than any other place in the US. 12 million birds are slaughtered each day. As you can imagine that creates a lot of manure. Manure is often applied in the fall. So in addition to the migrating waterfowl, there is probably major contributions from the land applied manure that is washed off with winter rains. There are a lot of folks working on this issue.

Another reason the water is becoming cloudy.. the natural cleaners (oysters) are dying off from disease. I heard that each bivalve filters from 30 to 60 gallons of water each day. With dwindling numbers of oysters you can see why water clarity is diminishing.

This is all much more than many of you care to know about manure, waste water and bacteria. It shows what can happen if you work for the past 7 years on the issue culmunating in the reopening of over 500 acres of commercial shellfish harvest area. Thank you for your indulgence and for your anticipated good stewardship that can not only set a positive example for the rest of us but protect important resources.

So, how is it that the Baby Blake can cost so much anyway? My wife offered to make a trip to England. Is this a new travel idea like buying a foreign auto?

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

The Baby Blake is made of bronze castings (apart from the bowl and seat of course!) and has (very important!) separate flush and soil pumps. I suspect that quite a bit of hand finishing goes into it.

Here's the maker's website:

http://www.blakes-lavac-taylors.co.uk/

Because Blakes' heads are practically immortal, and will outlive the boat they are installed in, another option is to acquire an un-loved one and rebuild it - all parts, and copious advice, are available from Blakes.

[Bob Cleek]

Yep, with heads, like all else, you get what you pay for. A Baby Blake or a Wilcox Crittenden Imperial 51 are made only of bronze, vitreous china and leather and rubber. The Blake is chromed as well. Other brands (e.g. Grocos) will be full of plastic parts, which are in some respects adequate, but just don't last as well. If you are in the market for a head, though, the thing to do is scout around the knackers' yards and find a boat that is being broken up. Not infrequently, they will let you take the head for the asking. (Bring your Sawzall!) If you are lucky, it may be a Blake or a Wilcox. Ya neva know! All the good quality heads need to be in "like new" condition is the manufacturer's repair kit. New gaskets, leathers and springs.

[CJ]

Well, after reading all the advice (and learning more than I'd like to know about bacteria counts) I ordered my Lavac Zenith today. Should be here next week. Hoping for many a trouble free boating season with this. Thanks, everyone for all the info!

[Spissgatter W-9]

CJ
My wife thanks you for asking the question. She is now planning her trip to England for a Baby Blake. Do let us know keep us apprised of your install.
geo

[Hwyl]

I too like Lavac's. Some people (especially people of the sitting down to pee variety) dislike the fact the seat is almost always wet. I think that this can add to the frequency of the dreaded "spotty Yachtie botty" a.k.a. salt water sores that many long passages seem to produce. (double entendre entirely intended)

It's an inherrent fault (the seal is part of the seat) and cannot be fixed.

Ladies in my life usually discover in short order the nice teack grating over the bowsprit, isn't that what it's there for?

[ 10-16-2004, 06:26 PM: Message edited by: Hwyl ]

[paladin]

Spissgater...lemme know the current price when you get it settled....I di mine 6 years ago....

[Hwyl]

Paladin they are 861.71 Pounds. (or properly 861 pounds 14 shillings and tuppence ha'penny). From here http://www.yachtparts.co.uk/tmenu/shop_cat.asp

I guess you could extract Very Awful Tax from that. Be about 736 Pounds or about $1330

[ 10-17-2004, 02:50 AM: Message edited by: Hwyl ]

[paladin]

darn......the price has doubled in about 6-7 years.......just curious.......Thanks.

[Hwyl]

Originally posted by paladin:
darn......the price has doubled in about 6-7 years.......just curious.......Thanks.The dollar has fallen too.

[Figment]

Exchange rates have changed a bit in the UK's favor in the last 4 years or so, no?

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Yes, that's it, though British industry, trying to sell things like Baby Blakes, does not see it as such a "favour"!
;)