Q for you musician types

[hokiefan]

Am teaching myself to play the guitar, and its starting to remotely resemble music. Was discussing this with a workmate who plays and somehow the subject of the name of the strings came up. Hadn't really spent a lot of time on that so I stumbled a little. Anyway I mentioned that in my High School days playing the trumpet I never really paid much attention to the letter name of the note. I just translated the visual picture of the note on the staff directly into the appropriate note (tone, duration, volume, etc) coming out of the trumpet. I could name the notes when questioned by the band director, but was a little slow at it since I had to think about it.

Skipping the name never hurt my ability to play the note, but I'm aware it somewhat hindered my ability to discuss things with other musicians (I hesitate to put myself in that class currently). My workmate thought that was weird and that I needed to correct that "error in my ways". I am remembering how to read music pretty easily, now learning how to translate that into the correct finger motions, etc, but I still gloss over the note name, just read it visually and play the note. Takes time and practice, but its coming along. Thoughts from you guys. How do you do it? Other than conversing with other musicians, does it really matter?

Cheers,

Bobby

[cs]

You visulize the music, oh how I envy you.

I just struggle with it all.

Chad

[MiddleAgesMan]

Learning the letter-names of the guitar strings should be easy and will be useful in more and more ways as you get more proficient. In the beginning it will help you choose the correct string if you happen to need just one and it will improve communications with other players. I've been playing for decades but am self-taught and have to think before choosing the correct name. I would be a better player today if I had learned such stuff early--and taken a few lessons along the way.

[D_Sikes]

If you play with other musicians who can't read score it might make things a little tougher, but I, like most other self taught musicians, can pick up what the other guy is playing by listening or just looking at what they're playing.

Being able to visualize notation is a gift! Wish I had it. I sit there and think Every Good Boy Does Fine and FACE :)

[MiddleAgesMan]

You visulize the music, oh how I envy you.

I just struggle with it all.

Chad

I think he means he automatically translates the note on a page to a fingering position on the trumpet (and the timing, breath, etc.). You acquire this ability through practice and you must acquire it before you can play any way other than haltingly.

A pianist is looking at lots of notes, many of which need to be played together. When first encountering a piece of music the beginner will look at each note singly, then put them all together to strike the first chord. But once he has learned a piece even the beginner will play simple pieces smoothly without having to think about the notes he's playing. As he gets more proficient he finds himself looking further and further ahead of where his fingers are at any given moment. It seems like an impossibility but anyone can do it with practice.

I believe the connection between mind and body that occurs when making music is a form of meditation. The mind "hears" the music and tells the fingers how to make the sounds the mind "hears" next. It happens on a subconscious level, however, and when it succeeds the musician often finds himself in a state of peace and contentment, thoroughly relaxed. My piano has been idle for over a year but back when I was really working on it (playing, not really working) I can recall finishing emotional pieces such as one of Chopin's 24 Preludes in a state of pure joy, wondering how I had found my way from start to finish, through all the emotional ups and downs of the "Raindrop" prelude for example (number 15), through its dark storms and gentle rain, without having to "think" about anything (except when to turn the pages).

No thinking required, just feeling.

[hokiefan]

When I was playing well in High School, I didn't look at individual notes, but read ahead and saw phrases for lack of a better word. It took a lot of work though to get to that point with a new piece of music. At that point I was reading individual notes and trying to figure out what the phrase sounded like, then practicing each phrase until I could routinely get it right. I can remember working for a week at home just learning technically how to play a 3 measure phrase, it really stretched my ability.

Once I could play the series of phrases correctly without clanking, the band director could help us learn to make it sound appealing, in terms of the tempo, style, volume, etc. And when I say a lot of work to learn a new piece I mean that, sight reading was a significant weakness of mine. It just doesn't come naturally to me. It was usually where I lost an challenge audition with a similar strength player.

I can see that I am slowly getting back to that with the guitar. On some of the little songs I can play, I don't think of the notes and/or the fingering, I can see the phrase on the page and play it.

I kind of liken it to learning a new language. Taking Spanish in HS, I would listen to the teacher speak in Spanish, translate mentally to English, think of the answer in English, translate mentally to Spanish, and answer in Spanish (on my better days!!). Took quite awhile. I remember one day in my second year, hearing the question in Spanish and just understanding it. I knew that is what it would take to be fluent in a language. Never quite got there, somedays even in English.:D

Anyway, my rambling thoughts.

Bobby

[hokiefan]

Not sure I need help, but maybe I do:D. I guess it depends on what I want out the guitar. I think if I want to just play for me, then it doesn't really matter that I don't think of note names when I look at musical score. If I ever get good enough to play with others, I would appreciate the effort to get conversant in the names, etc so I could discuss things more fluently. Thats a ways off, but you never know, it would be fun to play with others one day.

I am considering taking lessons in the not too distant future. I really like teaching myself things, but the knowledge of a professional could help me avoid bad habits and blind alleys. I just need to find someone who will work with me in a semi-self-taught manner that I desire. Will just take a little looking.

Cheers,

Bobby

[hokiefan]

I can read music, and I could be able to help you...
What do you really need help with?
I plays guitar and banjo

Each notes have it value, pitch, duration, ties, slurs...
Contact me... I'll try to make it easy to understand...

Oh, I can read music. I played the trumpet for 6-7 years in High School and was reasonably good. I just skip over the step of thinking of the name of the note. The note on the top of the staff never gets called an "F" in my head, my left hand fingers the 2nd fret on the 1st string and my right hand plucks the 1st string. Notice how I didn't call it the "E" string, that takes a lot more thought.:(

Anyway, my friend thought that was weird so I'm asking you guys. I know you guys will tell me I'm weird, so bring it on.:D

Cheers,

Bobby

[hokiefan]

That is typical mate.. that high E sometime being numbered also.. Think of E1 or E3 and so on... F is in first fret on E.

Since there isn't any E# or Fb, B# or Cb... I don't know why.. But, it is weird...

This caught my attention:eek:, when you mentioned 2nd fret on E.. That will be F# or Gb... :)

See, I can't even think about it straight. But the fingers are starting to get it right most of the time. At least for the simple tunes.

Cheers,

Bobby

[P.I. Stazzer-Newt]

Oh, I can read music. ... I just skip over the step of thinking of the name of the note. The note on the top of the staff never gets called an "F" in my head....
Anyway, my friend thought that was weird so I'm asking you guys. I know you guys will tell me I'm weird, so bring it on.:D

Cheers,

Bobby

No, not weird - not by the standards of musicians anyway.

Did you ever watch a French horn player tying to talk to a flautist and a clarinet player...... sure they can all play the same note but the same pitch can have up to five different names (more if you include exotica like the little Ab Clarinet)

[Memphis Mike]

You don't have to be able to read music to play the guitar although some play that way. Especially classical players.

Eric Clapton cannot read music, however he can tell you what note he is playing at any given time in a solo or song.

The most useful thing I learned are the notes on the fifth and sixth strings.

This allows me to quickly determine what key a song is in and to communcate with the others that are playing.

It's also useful in determining what barre chord you are playing at any given time.

[From Mystic]

Hokie

As a trained musician your not alone. I play guitar by ear and I've tried to play with others who read and I'll say "just play in A" or play "A,D,E" and they can't do it. But then they can sit and play classical peice.

So if you think you might like to jam with others it might not hurt to be able to use the names. Have fun. FM

[botebum]

Can't play, can't sing. Absolutely no musical talent whatsoever...but I'm a great listener...Play On!:D

Doug

[Memphis Mike]

"Hey Memphis, are you serious that Eric Clapton couldn't read music?"

Yes. I read it somewhere. I believe in his autobiography. Really, none of the really good guitar players I know personally can read music.

Like I said though, the more notes you can learn on the fretboard, the better.

[David Geiss]

http://www.teachguitar.com/content/tmcaged.htm

This is a powerful approach to the fretboard.
Best,
DG

[J P]

... and then there are the endless alternate tunings that throw a wrench in everything.



Thoughts from you guys. How do you do it? Other than conversing with other musicians, does it really matter?

I don't think it matters much. If you're getting right from the dots to the notes on the instrument and making music, why clutter up your mind with names? Its good to know the names of notes and strings but that can come fairly easily with practice. Fortunately, the range of most music accessible to, or written for, the guitar falls on or near the upper music staff. My sight reading slows way down when I have to work out really high notes above the staff and I don't read enough lower staff music anymore to get any practice with it.

One challenge with the guitar is that so many of the same notes can be played in two or three different places on the instrument. And while they are the same note they will sound slightly different. This is also one of the things about the guitar that make it fun to arrange on and why so many variations of any piece is possible.

I envy people who can easily work out pieces of music by ear. I've found that the (few) pieces I've worked out that way stick in my memory faster. And I get more of a sense of 'owning' the tune than learning it by reading the music. The same applies, but to a lesser degree, with learning a piece from standard written music versus tab. The ones I learn from standard music I memorize faster and I think it has something to do with having to work out the fingering on my own versus just following tab fingering. I can get a piece under my fingers quicker with tab but I tend to use the written score as a crutch for a longer time; forever it seems with some pieces. I should spend more time with ear training but if there is something I want to learn and I can find the music for it I go that route. I'll noodle around with different fingering options to find something that seems comfortable and efficient, and sounds right to my ears. Different fingering positions open up different embellishment opportunities and sound textures. Sometimes just changing the fingering of a line, or part of a line, can be a big breakthrough for me. If I'm finding that I consistantly have trouble in the same spot in a tune that I've been working on for a while, I try different fingering for that spot. Sometimes it works and sometimes it just lets me know I need more practice on it. Changing instruments can help as well, both technicaly and for musical inspiration. Nice to have several around. (G.A.S. ;))

Have fun with it. It's a wonderfully, and sometimes frustratingly, versatile instrument.

[Nanoose]

Since there isn't any E# or Fb, B# or Cb... I don't know why.. But, it is weird...

This caught my attention:eek:, when you mentioned 2nd fret on E.. That will be F# or Gb... :)

Well, actually....there IS an E#, or Fb, B#, Cb. It has to do with key signatures.

I think what you meant to point out is that there is no half step between B & C, and between E & F. Therefore, E# is the same pitch as F...and Cb is the same pitch as B (same pitch but different names = 'enharmonic equivalents').

OK?

[R.I.Singer30]

Not to bore you but here is a video I threw together a few months ago.The end has some of what MMike was saying about barre chords forming up on the sixth abd fifth frets and being movable as a scale.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vENCULSHuMg


I personnally have gotten to the point of motor memory,where as my fingers are used to going to patterns that are moveable ,either in a box pattern like a pentatonic minor scale on the first fret and then move it up two frets and so on.Once you have a movable pattern down The trick is to find which key fits.You appear to have a head start with the ear training frome school.I had 1 and a half years of trumpet.It sort of helps when I start some theory.I guess my answer is it is good to know theory and notes positions but it isn't nescesary.It will come with time and explaining it to others.Which is why I don;t mind sharing.Every time I tryto explain it it becomes a little clearer.


Here are some scales from Chordie.com



C Major Blues Scale]
-|--------------------------------8-11--------------------------------|-
-|---------------------------8-11------11-8---------------------------|-
-|-------------------8-10-11----------------11-10-8-------------------|-
-|--------------8-10--------------------------------10-8--------------|-
-|-------8-9-10------------------------------------------10-9-8-------|-
-|--8-11--------------------------------------------------------11-8--|-


[G Major Blues Scale]
-|--------------------------3-6--6-3--------------------------|-
-|----------------------3-6----------6-3----------------------|-
-|----------------3-5-6------------------6-5-3----------------|-
-|------------3-5------------------------------5-3------------|-
-|------3-4-5--------------------------------------5-4-3------|-
-|--3-6--------------------------------------------------6-3--|-


[F Major Blues Scale]
-|--------------------------1-4--4-1--------------------------|-
-|----------------------1-4----------4-1----------------------|-
-|----------------1-3-4------------------4-3-1----------------|-
-|------------1-3------------------------------3-1------------|-
-|------1-2-3--------------------------------------3-2-1------|-
-|--1-4--------------------------------------------------4-1--|-


*NOTE*
You can do this on any fret, just as long as the intervals are the same.
Rock on!

[Nanoose]

R.I. - it seems one is learning a fingering pattern (all are the same in the examples you gave) and simply starting on the desired note.

Therefore, why not learn one pattern AND the names of the notes on the fretboard so you can put that hook into any key you want?

[R.I.Singer30]

I think that by getting a motor memory it is less confusing to go by say ,a diatonic scale in the key of C will work well because you are saying one syllabel . step step half step step step half--1 1 1/2 1 1 1 1/2

Like: C D E F G A B C
. or : do-re-mi- fa- sol- la -ti- do
. or: 1 1 1/2 1 1 1 1/2

Where as to say the letters of a say F#diatonic you have 2 syllabols to ponounce i.e. remember on each note

Like: F# G# A# B C# D# F F#
. or: do re mi fa sol la ti do
. or. 1 1 1/2 1 1 1 1/2

Music was written for a keyboard and it makes a lot of sense in their linear world.Guitars have note all around that are easy to find when you don"t realize that you are looking for Them...????:confused:;)

Pianos are a 12 note scale.Sitars are a I dunno an 18 +- note scale.Guitars can bend notes a 1/4 note 2/3 tone or whatever .Those notes aren't available on the piano .That is why tableture is a better tutor to a guitarist. Whatver works for you is what you use unless you want to go to Julliart.I just have fun with it.I do know my fretboard fairly well.It just doesn't seem that it is important to be schooled only one way.Remember the banjo picker from Deliverance.I don't think he knew a B from an H...:D

[Nanoose]

Julliart. Ya. Cute. :rolleyes:

I said nothing about scale structure. I simply said memorizing a finger pattern (you're calling it muscle memory) and knowing which notes are where on the finger board is easier than memorizing the C, F and G scales you wrote out. As in, "here's the pattern for a blues scale...now start it anywhere you want", as long as the player knows where to find that. For example, with my kids at school, for 1 to say to the others in the band, "12 bar blues in A" and have a kid look at them like they've got holes in their head doesn't help the jam move along. A bit of knowledge is gonna go a long way.

And, no, not all music is written for keyboard. And pianos too have "note(s) all around that are easy to find when you don"t realize that you are looking for Them".

It is not that a piano has a 12 note scale. Those same 12 notes are also on your guitar. Same notes on both instruments. All a series of 1/2 steps/tones.

And, I'm not sure that tab is a "better" tutor for guitars. It is easier and faster to get where you want, yes, but I'm not convinced it is in the long run "better".

[Memphis Mike]

"And, I'm not sure that tab is a "better" tutor for guitars. It is easier and faster to get where you want, yes, but I'm not convinced it is in the long run "better"."

I'm quite happy with the results that learning tab have given me. I once had a guitar teacher who insisted on me learning to read music. It was the most frustrating time I can remember with the guitar.

I soon sent him on his way.

[brad9798]

MANY masters never learned to read music ... Clapton borrowed Albert King albums to mimic ... and did well at it.

Albert King himself play upside down AND backwards ... i.e. the high notes were at the TOP of the neck for his lefty playing.

Hendrix played upside down too ... but not backwards ... he change the order of his strings ...

You need to hear/understand notes ... then, you will prevail.

Brad

[Tommy Bahama]

Bobby,

You pretty much got it...reading music is a form of communication so that you can discuss what you are doing with another player (or learn a song). I read music and have been playing pedal steel and lead guitar in bar bands for the past 30 years. We don't read music on stage but you have to beable to communicate with the other players other than saying "let's play it about here"...I like the "number system" myself...eg, a simple country or rock song with three chords in the key of A would be called out " key of alfalfa, 1-4-5 progression. The "1" being A, "4" is D and E is the "5". If you view chord progressions as patterns, this is really easy because the number system will always be the same pattern regardless of the key.

Kind of like these boats we're messing with...you don't need to learn the terminology to build one but if you don't it's going to be real hard to explain to one another what you just did.

Have fun with it,

Tommy

[Todd Bradshaw]

That's pretty similar to the way studio musicians in Nashville work, too. They use a rather cryptic shorthand system and almost never play from regular sheet music or tabulature. Unless you're playing something awfully formal, I think you'll find that if you ever want to play guitar with others, knowing the names of the notes may be more valuable than knowing how to read music. A couple of weeks worth of paying attention to the names attached to various strings at various positions on the fingerboard as you mess around isn't particularly difficult and will pay off in the long run.

I have nothing against being able to read music or sight-read and play guitar, but even in the studio I've never seen anybody do it other than orchestra folks brought in to add some strings or horn parts to a recording. There are certainly times when you might say to the guitar player "What if you went up and hit that high D and then bend it up to an E right as the verse ends?" but I've never seen anybody sit down and write it out on a staff.

I can't read music, I can't read tab and know absolutely nothing about music theory, but I can instantly tell you ten or twelve spots on a guitar or bass fingerboard where you'll find a E or an F#, G, A, etc. and I know what they'll sound like before I hit them and have a pretty good idea of what goes with them. Without that little bit of knowledge, I'd be screwed. If you can combine some of that with the nuts and bolts music stuff that you already have a pretty good grasp of, I think it will be worth it if you ever want to do the group thing.

[donald branscom]

Tommy Bahama is right on. Music is something you do with other people and so you need to learn the language. You can use tablature or read notes but when playing with others you need to let them know the KEY , the chord progression or what would be necessary.
That is polite.
If you wanted to play a rock song like Mustang Sally you know that it is a 24 bar blues progression (1,4,5) and that the song has stops, so the other band members could participate WITH YOU and have a good time with you. It would be rude to call a song and not tell them for instance that it was a Creedence song with 44 chords. See what i mean?

Learn the blues, then rock music is basically 1,4,5 chord progressions or another chord progression with a bridge section between the blues progressions generally. R&B has it's own structure too.
Before you learn a song have a good teacher explain to you the general structure of the song so you know where you you are headed. Don't just learn the licks and tricks or introduction.
Learn the chords of the song. The rthymn of the song is the foundation. The solo is like the icing on the cake.

[Memphis Mike]

"You pretty much got it...reading music is a form of communication so that you can discuss what you are doing with another player (or learn a song)."

We're talkin about sitting down with a guitar and actual musical notation on the staff in front of you on a stand and picking out notes in a song note for note.

If you really want to frustrate yourself then go ahead but it really isn't necessary.

[Memphis Mike]

That's pretty similar to the way studio musicians in Nashville work, too. They use a rather cryptic shorthand system and almost never play from regular sheet music or tabulature. Unless you're playing something awfully formal, I think you'll find that if you ever want to play guitar with others, knowing the names of the notes may be more valuable than knowing how to read music. A couple of weeks worth of paying attention to the names attached to various strings at various positions on the fingerboard as you mess around isn't particularly difficult and will pay off in the long run.

I have nothing against being able to read music or sight-read and play guitar, but even in the studio I've never seen anybody do it other than orchestra folks brought in to add some strings or horn parts to a recording. There are certainly times when you might say to the guitar player "What if you went up and hit that high D and then bend it up to an E right as the verse ends?" but I've never seen anybody sit down and write it out on a staff.

I can't read music, I can't read tab and know absolutely nothing about music theory, but I can instantly tell you ten or twelve spots on a guitar or bass fingerboard where you'll find a E or an F#, G, A, etc. and I know what they'll sound like before I hit them and have a pretty good idea of what goes with them. Without that little bit of knowledge, I'd be screwed. If you can combine some of that with the nuts and bolts music stuff that you already have a pretty good grasp of, I think it will be worth it if you ever want to do the group thing.

And that from a pro. Well said Todd.

[donald branscom]

MANY masters never learned to read music ... Clapton borrowed Albert King albums to mimic ... and did well at it.

Albert King himself play upside down AND backwards ... i.e. the high notes were at the TOP of the neck for his lefty playing.

Hendrix played upside down too ... but not backwards ... he change the order of his strings ...

You need to hear/understand notes ... then, you will prevail.

Brad

Brad believe me......Albert King KNEW almost ALL THE CHORDS.
Hendrix KNEW almost all the chords.
If you can play all the "A" chords in Ted Green's book then you are done with "A" chords.

Earlier there were no left hand guitars sold. Left handers had to make due.

[Memphis Mike]

Brad believe me......Albert King KNEW almost ALL THE CHORDS.
Hendrix KNEW almost all the chords.
If you can play all the "A" chords in Ted Green's book then you are done with "A" chords.

Earlier there were no left hand guitars sold. Left handers had to make due.

Albert King also tuned his guitar to his own ear. He played for instance an "A" chord or whatever in a place on the neck where no one else plays it. It's a little known fact gained from someone who actually played with him. Albert King was illiterate. He could'nt read sh!t.

[Hwyl]

Here's Andy (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsh0obRI_Es) giving an Albert King tutorial.

[Memphis Mike]

My guitar teacher and friend played with Albert King's band in the honky tonks of Eastern Arkansas where he first got his start.

Even he doesn't know how King tuned his guitar. It's still a mystery. Albert King wouldn't let anyone touch his guitar. He was a great big guy and carried a gun and didn't like white folks too much.:eek: Go figure.

[Memphis Mike]

Here's Andy (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsh0obRI_Es)giving an Albert King tutorial.

That's pretty cool Gareth but it isn't how King did it. As I said, he played the same chords and licks as someone tuned to standard 440 on an entirely different spot on the neck. He had his own language.

[R.I.Singer30]

I think my point is exemplified by the video.He is playing the blues scale in G minor pentatonic.Such as the three types of scales that I copied above.The pentatonic(five note scale) sets the ground work for the rest of the notes that are bent to or fretted in the area.Those notes that are bent are not available on a standard piano.Knowing the key and progressions are helpful but some of my favorite friend players don't have half a clue as to a scale or Bm7d5 chord yet they play them naturally by ear.They are the naturals...I'm sort of like a mechanic I can find my 3/8 box wrench in the dark because I've looked for it sooo many times,if ya know what I mean.

A helpful trick to memorize the notes of a minor pentatonic scale is E minor pentatonic are all the six strings of a standard tuned guitar.EADGBE, in scale E minor pentatonic is E G A B D E.This will repeat up the neck.On the fifth fret the sixth string is A.Going down below it are A D G C E A, so the scale of A minor pentatonic in order is A C D E G A. Yhere is a "blue note added to the pentatonic to make it a hexatonic scale.blah blah blah...let's jam.;):D

[R.I.Singer30]

The point nanoose is stating is that I chose not to call the F below an E#but theoretically that is what it would be called .

. .............................(E#) is correct,F and F# are not in the same scale
like:F# G# A# B C# D# F F#
. or: do re mi fa sol la ti do
. or. 1 1 1/2 1 1 1 1/2

[Nanoose]

Nanoose,
I don't want to start any arguement, okay...
Please don't confuse others....
I read music and write tabs, even on a piano there still no (E# / Fb) or (B# / Cb) it been like that ever since before Beethoven..
I can see your point about "inharmonic equivalents"




Nice cut and paste job, boyles!

Would be nice too if you wouldn't confuse people. A # or b is not just a black note on a piano :rolleyes:. A # or b indicates either raising or lowering a pitch half a step/a semi-tone. In fact there are double #'s and double b's, as I'm sure you already know :rolleyes:. When to use what? The key and mode you are playing in tell you, as I'm sure you're aware :rolleyes:. So, if you are in the key of Cb and want a bandmate to flatten a note, he'll have to play a double flat, but you're probably already aware, right? :rolleyes:

As I said, it's not that there is "no (E# / Fb) or (B# / Cb) it been like that ever since before Beethoven", it is that there is not a whole step between B & C and E & F, as your pictures so clearly show. And if you'd grab your guitar and listen as you play, you'll see on one fret you're playing E and on the fret right beside it you're magically playing F.

And it is enharmonic equivalents :rolleyes:, as you surely know with your ability to write music :rolleyes:.

[Memphis Mike]

Nice cut and paste job, boyles!

Would be nice too if you wouldn't confuse people. A # or b is not just a black note on a piano :rolleyes:. A # or b indicates either raising or lowering a pitch half a step/a semi-tone. In fact there are double #'s and double b's, as I'm sure you already know :rolleyes:. When to use what? The key and mode you are playing in tell you, as I'm sure you're aware :rolleyes:. So, if you are in the key of Cb and want a bandmate to flatten a note, he'll have to play a double flat, but you're probably already aware, right? :rolleyes:

As I said, it's not that there is "no (E# / Fb) or (B# / Cb) it been like that ever since before Beethoven", it is that there is not a whole step between B & C and E & F, as your pictures so clearly show. And if you'd grab your guitar and listen as you play, you'll see on one fret you're playing E and on the fret right beside it you're magically playing F.

And it is enharmonic equivalents :rolleyes:, as you surely know with your ability to write music :rolleyes:.

Why make fun of someone because their opinion happens to be different from yours. You're exactly the kind of sarcastic smart a$$ that I would never consider taking a music lesson from.

[Memphis Mike]

BTW, Dan. The next time we play "Melissa" together, lets play it in Fb.:rolleyes:

[Nanoose]

Why make fun of someone because their opinion happens to be different from yours. You're exactly the kind of sarcastic smart a$$ that I would never consider taking a music lesson from.

Not making fun of anyone, Reverend. And I don't make fun of someone because their opinion happens to differ from mine. It's not an issue of opinion but of confusion. And as for lessons, you're right....we'd not be a good fit at all. Prob'ly couldn't jam together either, which is too bad....whether in Fb or E ;)

[Todd Bradshaw]

Wow! this is an interesting discussion. Let's hope we can keep it on the civil side as there are some very interesting viewpoints being expressed, even though they may not be in perfect harmony.

I'm curious though (and being serious, not sarcastic) - when those of you who played in groups (formal or not) sat down with the band to learn and work out a new tune, did you actually use sheet music? Obviously in my case it wouldn't have done any good as I don't know a fourth from a four-iron and fifths are what scotch comes in, but maybe we were different from other groups. The method we used was just somebody started playing and others pitched in. After a couple run-throughs, everybody had a pretty good idea of what they were doing. We actually did some studio work, backing up other artists where that was about it - the next run-through had tape rolling. On our own stuff, we could generate something playable in an hour or so and through future rehersals and gigs it would slowly evolve into it's final form - though nothing was set in stone and there were small variations from performance to performance.

We did have two guys in the band who had majored in Music in college, but nothing was ever written down or played off of sheet music or any other type of notation. Some of this stuff was pretty complex rhythmically and had to be pretty tight to avoid having it become complete chaos, but our "evolution-by-ear" process always seemed to work pretty well.

Here's an example. It's from a live concert and a smuggled-in cassette recorder in the balcony with the microphones hidden in a guy's gloves so the recording quality isn't outstanding, but for a fairly simple jazz/blues type of tune it's a very complex song to play. I can't imaging trying to write down a score for it and play it off of sheet music. Is that really the way your groups would approach such a project?

http://webpages.charter.net/tbradshaw/Music%20stuff/Saturday%20Night.mp3

[Memphis Mike]

Just curious. Todd, what would you say if someone told you to play the song in Fb or B# etc?

[R.I.Singer30]

Just curious. Todd, what would you say if someone told you to play the song in Fb or B# etc?

probably ,"what's it sound like?".

I met a girl who learned piano in Europe,Belgium I believe.She didn't know the letters .It was all do re mi..... starting on one key of the piano,then the next and so on, so she knew all the keys but not nescesarily the name.If she said A# in Belgiumese(?;)) you wouldn't know if she said.B# or C...si.

You say tomato and I say tomato.

If we all agree on A440 Hz(vibrations per second as middle "C" on a piano) as our starting point we are in tune.The old blues guys never had a digital tuner (nor Beethoven) but for some odd reason it strikes the heartstrings of most humans.

the ORB of CONFUSION has been passed on.It's agreat puzzle though.:D

[Memphis Mike]

I guess my point IS:

What's the point of even acknowledging that E is the enharmonic equivalent of Fb?

Just to go along with some ancient music theory? This is the kinda crap that cornfusses folks.:D I don't even need this information. It won't help my playing one bit.

I'll continue to follow the rule that there are no sharps or flats between B and C and E and F. Thank you vurrrry much.

[P.I. Stazzer-Newt]

If we all agree on A440 Hz(vibrations per second as middle "C" on a piano) as our starting point we are in tune.The old blues guys never had a digital tuner (nor Beethoven) but for some odd reason it strikes the heartstrings of most humans.


Oh my - utter carnage.

440Hz is the A (a) above middle C (which is then about 258 Hz) - and its been that way since 1939 - the Paris convention - although it had been in use as a de facto standard for about 15 years before the convention - I don't recall seeing a High Pitch (A=455 ish) instrument built after 1930.

The history of pitch standards is a rather curious one with the A in Bach's day being as low as 415 - by 1830 we were using something about 435 (really early Boehm flutes are nearly usable in modern settings) - then ever upwards until by 1920 A=457 was in evidence...

Then there is the whole morass of scale forms - today you will seldom hear anything but equal tempered (twelfth root of two geometric) - but that's not the only way to chop up an octave - see "the comma of pythagoras".

Just so.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pythagorean_comma
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pitch_(music)

[R.I.Singer30]

Ah yes the orb of confussion......Pythagorian's Comma ARRRGG;).,,,people just have to much time on there hands..LOL What was the question?

[Memphis Mike]

Ah yes the orb of confussion......Pythagorian's Comma ARRRGG;).,,,people just have to much time on there hands..LOL What was the question?

Some friends are putting together a band and jam every Sunday. I've been asked to join them. I may go over tomorrow and ask them if they know about Pythagorian's Comma.

[Bruce Taylor]

Some friends are putting together a band and jam every Sunday. I've been asked to join them. I may go over tomorrow and ask them if they know about Pythagorian's Comma.

Some of the guys I play with would be into having that discussion. In fact, they might just talk all the way through band practice, leaving no time for music. :rolleyes:

I've always played by ear. When I want to tell the keyboard guy what I'm doing I have to look it up first. Having looked it up, I can then tell him to play, say, F#m7/5b, and he just does it. It's amazing, to me.

Then the sax guy has to do some sort of mental arithmetic to translate what we're doing into some kind of special saxophone notation. And then I tell the bass player exactly which strings he has to pluck and which frets he has to press (E string first fret, then E second, then A third, A fourth, that's it, keep going like that, don't stop, etc).

Of course, we can't hear what we're saying because the drummer refuses to shut up for three minutes. :D

[Todd Bradshaw]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Memphis Mike
"Just curious. Todd, what would you say if someone told you to play the song in Fb or B# etc?"

Mike,

Like you, I would say "you mean E or C?" as one set of note names seems to be enough for me. Unless...I thought they were giving me a hard time, in which case remember that I play fretless and I can put three or four distinct notes between an E and an F or a B and a C. In that case, my snappy come-back would be something like "Let's give the singer a bit more headroom. How about we play it in B-flat-and-a-half?

[Memphis Mike]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Memphis Mike
"Just curious. Todd, what would you say if someone told you to play the song in Fb or B# etc?"

Mike,

Like you, I would say "you mean E or C?" as one set of note names seems to be enough for me. Unless...I thought they were giving me a hard time, in which case remember that I play fretless and I can put three or four distinct notes between an E and an F or a B and a C. In that case, my snappy come-back would be something like "Let's give the singer a bit more headroom. How about we play it in B-flat-and-a-half?

Yeah. I like that. B flat and a half.:D

[David Geiss]

The circle of fifths.....very interesting way to understand key signatures and relationships bewteen major scales:

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.carolinaclassical.com/scales/circle2.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.carolinaclassical.com/scales/circle.html&h=630&w=600&sz=38&tbnid=Comv3ujlvizwnM:&tbnh=137&tbnw=130&prev=/images?q=circle+of+fifths&um=1&start=1&sa=X&oi=images&ct=image&cd=1

Trying to put all of this to use playing octave mandolin, tuned (bass to treble) G D A E, meaning it's tuned to fifths, unlike the guitar which is tuned to fourths:
E A D G B E
(well all of these intervals are fourths apart, except the G to B interval. This permits the treble string to end up on E (which is a fourth up from B). Thus we end up with low E and high E.

Tuning low E down to D opens up some nice possibilities, but I'm no expert. HAVE FUN WITH IT!

DG

[Nanoose]

Interesting how your mandolin tuning (5ths) is the exact opposite of the bottom 4 guitar strings (4ths), eh ;)

[David Geiss]

Yes, you can also come up with basic mando chords by simply inverting common guitar chords. In that you need essentially three notes to express a chord (triad), there are mando chords all over the fretboard, and then you get to the inversions of chords........let me just throw the Tim Obrien mando DVD in and just follow him........

Mando is a great adjunct to guitar and it cuts right through the crowd. Then again my octave mando can get drowned out by guitars because it's in a closer frequency range than the mando proper, which is tuned an octave above. I believe my bass string on the octave mando, a G, is two half steps (on whole step) below A 440.

Here is a good place to find out more:
http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/forums/index.php?

Best,
DG

[hokiefan]

I have been out of pocket all weekend, so just caught up with this thread. It is fascinating, although a little confusing, primarily because I am not fluent with guitar by any means. I can read music, but all of my prior training was playing what would be a lead part on the guitar, because thats usually what a trumpet plays. I never played piano as a kid, so I never really learned chords or their structure. Our band director would teach classes over the summer, some private or small group lessons, but also classes in music theory as well. I took several, but that stuff is rusted seriously, and will need alot of WD40 to get out. One of the things thats fascinating about the guitar is that there are endless possibilities, I can see that could be frustrating as well.

One thing I never learned was the art of improvisation. I went to an academic summer program after my junior year and my roommate was quite the good trombonist, who liked what he called modern jazz. I came in the room one afternoon and he was playing, so I just sat and listened for about 15 minutes. When he put the bone down, I said that was great, what was it? "Oh I don't know, I was just playing around." I was extremely envious, because it sounded great.

The next school year I was discussing it with our band director, and he said I couldn't do it because I didn't know the structure and how to approach improvisation, but he could teach me the next summer if I was interested. I didn't even know there was a structure!!! Well life (making $$$, partying, freedom in the summer before college, ...) conspired to get in the way and I never bothered to take Mr Barton up on his offer. Wish now I had, but its easy to look back and make decisions in retrospect.

Anyway, I love the wealth of knowledge around this place. The guitar is slowly becoming fun to play, and discussions like this make me want to spend more time practicing. Thats the only way to get there after all.

Cheers,

Bobby

[R.I.Singer30]

hi hokie,I was wondering where you were?I thought yo shook the bees nest and ran.

Go to chordie.com They have some tablature type lessons.

The "blues box" pattern is the easy way to learn the structures without note memorization.

The simple amswer is you don't have to hve theory down to memorization but it helps and you will develop it down the road.Just have fun with it.

Learn how to make chord shapes.Find a couple simple songs you like and
practive them.A G, D ,and C chord song is good practice.E A and D would be another.The later is the start of the movable Root 5 and root 6 chords.(see my vid.
Later DanL

[hokiefan]

hi hokie,I was wondering where you were?I thought yo shook the bees nest and ran.

Go to chordie.com They have some tablature type lessons.

The "blues box" pattern is the easy way to learn the structures without note memorization.

The simple amswer is you don't have to hve theory down to memorization but it helps and you will develop it down the road.Just have fun with it.

Learn how to make chord shapes.Find a couple simple songs you like and
practive them.A G, D ,and C chord song is good practice.E A and D would be another.The later is the start of the movable Root 5 and root 6 chords.(see my vid.
Later DanL

I'm usually not on much on the weekends. I work out of town so I have time during the week, either in the evenings, or if I spend too much time during the day, then I work a little later. The weekends are family time, either on the soccer field watching the youngest, yard work, or one of the long list of projects. Currently its building a big deck around the above ground pool. After that its tile the laundry room, at least thats the latest direction from the project manager.

Had no intention of shaking the bee's nest, who'd have thought there was any controversy about music theory.:eek: The only downside of this place is that the most interesting threads usually deteriorate to an argument after about 20-30 posts. Before that, there's a tremendous amount to learn from many points of view.

To all, thanks for the advice. This is a wonderful place.

Bobby