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Andrew S/Y Rocquette
11-08-2004, 01:02 PM
Hi all

The restoration of Rocquette goes on...next decision is deck restoration. Plan probably is to go for a teak veneer over the existing repaired ply deck.

Before opting for this however, I thought I'd ask if anyone has suggestions of alternative woods (iroko and silver balli have been mentioned) that are rot-resistant enough to be left unfinished, and are both cheaper and envoronmentally and politically more acceptable than teak? And available in Europe...

Oh - updated(ish) piccies are at http://www.yacht.ro/frame.php?lang=en&linc=race
Cheers
Andrew
S/Y Rocquette
GBR 2126R

Dan St Gean
11-08-2004, 02:51 PM
Some traditional boats did have cedar decks. You might check into that as an option although they are softer than the species mentioned.

Dan

Pernicious Atavist
11-08-2004, 08:08 PM
ipe--a type of ironwood sold as decking (HOME decking) is VERY dense, cheaper than teak, farm grown, last longer (i think) than teak, and is about a quarter to a third the cost. it's prettier, but also heavy, but how much more than teak, i don't know. i use it and love it, but not as yet for full decks (boat).

Andrew S/Y Rocquette
11-09-2004, 09:01 AM
Cheers for both suggestions - have also heard of yellow pine being used. Have concerns about durability if left untreated of a softwood tho'...

Venchka
11-09-2004, 09:16 AM
While perusing a few boatbuilding books last night, I was reminded of afrormosia. It used to enjoy a price advantage over teak and was quite popular in Europe. Things may have changed and it may no longer have a price advantage over teak. Worth a look.

Wayne
In the Swmap. :D

George.
11-09-2004, 10:03 AM
Originally posted by Pernicious Atavist:
ipe--a type of ironwood sold as decking (HOME decking) is VERY dense, cheaper than teak, farm grown, last longer (i think) than teak, and is about a quarter to a third the cost. it's prettier, but also heavy, but how much more than teak, i don't know. i use it and love it, but not as yet for full decks (boat).Ipê is one of the heaviest woods around - 1300 kg per cubic meter, heavier than water. Too heavy for decks, in my opinion. And while it is long lasting, it cracks in the sun unless painted or varnished, and it is oily, so it doesn't hold varnish very well.

Jack Heinlen
11-09-2004, 10:20 AM
The issue of putting a veneer over a ply deck is a hot one. Most reports, twenty years on, haven't been very sanguine. No matter how good the materials and the techniques water seems to sneak in and wreak havoc with the ply. All them pesky screw holes through the ply.

Have you thought about dynel and paint? Given what you've said, I'd think about it.

Dale R. Hamilton
11-09-2004, 10:45 AM
Have you thought of treadmaster, or a product that Vetus distributes, elephant hide I think. Both non slip, many colors, totally waterproof.

RonW
11-09-2004, 12:56 PM
What's wrong with - White Oak...

buildergirl
11-10-2004, 10:32 AM
I've lived on a few boats that had doug fir decking, and it was left unfinished. They were both sail training vessels and so the deck got a lot of wear, but they held up well for a long time (like 10 years and counting). They've had to be re-caulked in spots, but only the occassional plank replaced. It is light, but it would probably need to be much thicker than something like teak. (This was in British Columbia, but both boats did go to tropical places... we wet down the deck every day when in tropical places, with sea water, to keep it from shrinking and leaking!)
Good luck with whatever you end up using!

Roger Cumming
11-10-2004, 09:58 PM
What's wrong with white oak? Anyone who has tried to maintain white oak in a deck structure will tell you how difficult it is, compared to say Honduras mahogany. It turns black wherever water gets through the varnish. And it is not very stable when exposed to sunlight, rain, salt spray. And it's hard, and heavy. Decking should be stable, and like being out in the sun all week long on the mooring. It doesn't have to be really strong and it shouldn't be heavy - weight up high in a boat is no asset. Teak fits the bill except it's expensive and farm grown teak, which is probably what you will get, may not be of very high quality. Angelique, another rain forest wood, is a good alternative although I have not seen much of it lately.

redsail
11-10-2004, 10:32 PM
How about clear, edge grained red cedar. The wood is light, easy to work with and reasonably resistant to decay. Finished with a good tung oil or some oil that does not kick your caulking compound back to tar it is easy to maintain and will be easy on your bare feet.

Bob Smalser
11-10-2004, 11:36 PM
Edge-grained Douglas Fir is used almost exclusively for decking in larger vessels...Southern Yellow Pine may exude resin in hot weather and isn't preferred....(DF) available in the sizes and quantities needed in edge-grain form. Mahogany is preferred in small boats (under 50') because of its stability, availablility in clear edge-grain, and to a large extent, its appearance. Teak has long been the preferred wood for ship decking but is scarce and costly. Wood, A Manual for its use a a Shipbuilding Material, Vol IV, Techniques Applicable to Boat and Ship Construction, USN Bureau of Ships, 1962.

Jack Heinlen
11-10-2004, 11:54 PM
Eastern White Pine was a common decking material for a laid deck 80 years ago. Worked well.

The issue of ply with veneer remains unadressed.

Study it well, and maybe it will work well, but I suspect your inheritors will not speak kindly. A canvas and paint analog, in the form of epoxy and dynel, will work, will look good, will not have the problems of a veneer, and will, mostly, be there in twenty years.

Maybe I'm wrong, but from what I've seen and read the use of a thin veneer of hardwood over ply is not good. Correct me where wrong. Looks nice, but has a plethora of problems. Water waits for no sealant. It's the beauty of a genuine laid deck. I doesn't depend on goo.

Good luck!

Chris Gerkin
11-11-2004, 12:39 AM
I used cypress over ply and lots of epoxy. The screws were removed and weren't long enough to go through the ply so there are no leaks. The claulk was a 2 part and the finish is oil. The boat sits outside in the rain and there are no leaks.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid59/p006f3ba365086554127e11bb0b40098b/fc583434.jpg

Andrew Craig-Bennett
11-11-2004, 04:02 AM
Itoko is unsuitable for a bare deck; it surface checks and goes black. I suspect, but do not know, that afromosia would do the same.

Oak is dimensionally unstable and turns black if left bare, so that is a non-starter.

Douglas fir is excellent, so is good white pine if you can get it (you probably cannot) and kauri which you certainly won't get is the best of the lot.

I would not use a plywood subdeck with a fake deck over it. I would use plywood and glass cloth/epoxy.

Paul Fitzgerald
11-11-2004, 04:48 AM
I have a 31 foot sailboat with a leading designer and built by a reputable builder. It is an exact sister ship to one built for the designer, the first of a run of seven boats. The hull was cold moulded red cedar with epoxy, the deck was layers of coachwood ply (our best marine ply) glued with epoxy and covered with a teak veneer. After twenty years many of the decks of these boats have been completely replaced.
The problem was that the hull was dynelled with epoxy but the deck veneers were epoxied direct to the ply. As the deck veneer moved over the years water seeped in through the holes left by the staples which had been used to hold the deck and the teak veneers, and were removed after the epoxy dried.
There was extensive rot and fresh water damage in every layer of the ply we removed when the deck was replaced. Needless to say, the new deck is dynelled and painted.
The scariest part of the story was the chainplates, which were part of an aluminium frame which extended to the mast step. They went through the deck and were water proofed with sealant. When the deck was removed the section of the chainplate which was concealed had laminated with fresh water corrosion, and could be bent with a wrench. They were replaced with stainless straps.
So, if you are planning a veneer deck which will be exposed to the elements, dynel and seal the underlying ply and find a way to secure the veneers which does not involve perforating the dynel (I cant figure out a way to do it) or in twenty years someone will post a story similar to this but may be less civilised and publish the name of the builder.

Thad Van Gilder
11-11-2004, 07:31 AM
I have seen good decks of teak, white cedar, OLD GROWTH, TIGHT GRAIN eastern white pine, Angelique, doug. Fir, and heart pine. They all seem to work as laid planking... I dunno about the veneered decks. Every one I have seen has had major rot issues.

-Thad
S/V IVY

Andrew S/Y Rocquette
11-12-2004, 08:48 AM
Hi ho - as usual a number of different opinions ranging from the dogmatic "don't do it" to the "how about..." types!

Thanks to all for their varied and erudite comments. For the record, the decision is to utilise a fine teak veneer (around 4 mm), epoxied to the plywood sub-deck, but avoiding mechanincal fastenings into the ply as that seems to be a major source of rot with plugs working loose etc. By keeping the veneer relatively thin there is less issue with movement of the wood and letting water in, plus keeping the weight down.

Incidentally - I spent 7 years living aboard a fibreglass yacht (sorry - I was only 8 when I moved aboard so deny responsibility - I've only ever owned wooden yachts - 2 - myself!) in the 80s as a kid with a teak deck (glued and screwed to cored glass deck) and it gave no problems and was maintained with a daily bucket or two of salt water and nowt else.

You are all naturally free to tell me "I told you so" in 20 years time, if I post a thread called "How to renovate epoxy teak-veneered decks which have been rotting for 20 years due to stoopid installation"!

Thanks again for the accumulated wisdom and opinion.

sdowney717
11-12-2004, 11:05 AM
Are you going to let it go grey or treat it with
Nyalic
www.Nyalic.com (http://www.Nyalic.com)

A clear nylonic polymer 100% UV proof where new coats simply melt into the old. It will keep the wood dry and is easy to do and touch up. No varnish bubbles, no worries about cracking peeling finishes, no worries about rot from water intrusion.

Andrew S/Y Rocquette
11-12-2004, 12:04 PM
plan is to leave it to grey - apart from anything else, it gives much better grip.

However - never heard of Nyalic before, but it sounds similar to Coelan, available in Europe. Have you had long-term experience of this as a varnish alternative?

Andrew

chucksw
11-12-2004, 02:27 PM
Just a couple resources:

http://www.westsystem.com/ for some useful information.

Also look at this web page:

http://www.fantasia35.com/teak-decks.htm

For a teak deck substitute, "Trex". Used here in the Northwest for outdoor decking instead of cedar and doug fir.

sdowney717
11-12-2004, 04:33 PM
Not long term but a gallon covers over a thousand sq feet. It is fairly pricy but is good stuff. I heard about it from users putting it on their bikes (motorcylcles) and others who polish up aluminum wheels on cars. What is nice about it is no sanding like when your bright work fails from the sun and age. The stuff will very slowly wear off the surface, but it takes many years.

Andrew S/Y Rocquette
11-12-2004, 06:01 PM
Thanks. How does it affect the wood colour - is it quite a clear plastic gloss film or does it impart some "glow" to the wood?

[ 11-12-2004, 06:02 PM: Message edited by: Andrew S/Y Rocquette ]

carioca1232001
11-12-2004, 06:29 PM
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Pernicious Atavist:
ipe--a type of ironwood sold as decking (HOME decking) is VERY dense, cheaper than teak, farm grown, last longer (i think) than teak, and is about a quarter to a third the cost. it's prettier, but also heavy, but how much more than teak, i don't know. i use it and love it, but not as yet for full decks (boat).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

To which George replied :
Ipê is one of the heaviest woods around - 1300 kg per cubic meter, heavier than water. Too heavy for decks, in my opinion. And while it is long lasting, it cracks in the sun unless painted or varnished, and it is oily, so it doesn't hold varnish very well. True, ipê is heavy but is VALUE FOR MONEY and hard to beat !

I´ve seen a great deal of ipê decks in our traditional "saveiros" boats, and not a single cracked deck.

Similarly with outdoor decks/private docks in friend´s homes by the seaside. However, not sure how well it TAKES TO COLD WEATHER....or WEATHER CYCLING ? But sells as hot cakes in North America, at least for outside decking material !

My railings are ipê and like rest of the woodwork, needs varnishing (CETOL) every 12 months or so. And my bottomsides replanking was recently done in ipê - it should outlive me !

I maybe an ipê fan !

sdowney717
11-12-2004, 09:56 PM
It is a clear coating, no color.

sdowney717
11-12-2004, 09:58 PM
It is the same as if you wet the wood with water.
In fact this stuff is very thin, goes on just like water.

sdowney717
11-12-2004, 10:04 PM
I agree with you on IPE wood.
I have not seen it crack or check. Its grain runs very straight. It is a very stiff wood. They build boardwalks out of it and it is very tough wood. Stands up to a lot of traffic. I am interested in it as trim molding on my egg.

carioca1232001 how does the bottom of your boat look, is it flat or does it have some curves to it?
Did you have to bend the IPE anywhere?
As far as weight, down below it is fine to have the weight, besides most bottoms are going to take up some water and be fairly heavy. Did the IPE swell any, how did you butt up your planking?

carioca1232001
11-12-2004, 11:17 PM
sdowney717 wrote:


agree with you on IPE wood.
I have not seen it crack or check. Its grain runs very straight. It is a very stiff wood. They build boardwalks out of it and it is very tough wood. Stands up to a lot of traffic. I am interested in it as trim molding on my egg.

carioca1232001 how does the bottom of your boat look, is it flat or does it have some curves to it?
Did you have to bend the IPE anywhere?
As far as weight, down below it is fine to have the weight, besides most bottoms are going to take up some water and be fairly heavy. Did the IPE swell any, how did you butt up your planking? Be careful should your local lumber yards play the same trick as some do here, selling you CUMARU as if it were IPÊ - they look alike, but CUMARU will ROT.

Just finished replacing a total of 16 planks, port and starboard, each plank averaging 3.5 m X 14cm X 1.5 cm. These planks cover the amidships-stern area. Pretty much flat runs, with minimal curvature in the horizontal plane.

Last Dcember, replaced the 1 st and 2 nd planks by the keel, port and starboard. Some tricky curvature at the bow extremity, especially for plank n° 1, but it did eventually fit the bill.

There was minimal swelling of planks 1 and 2 as ipê is virtually impervious to water. However ipê-hulls are best left out in the water, otherwise on dry-docking for PROLONGED PERIODS, boards could shrink PERMANENTLY and not swell at all again. This can make for CHRONIC weeping bilges, so say the experts.

Will post some photos shortly concerning this replanking effort.

This weekend plan on installing some 16 butt blocks on the inside of the hull.....and soon this whole job can be classed as COMPLETE !

Scott Rosen
11-13-2004, 07:33 AM
I recently saw a museum-quality restoration in process, with yellow pine decks being laid. It was beautiful and a lot less expensive than teak. The wood is stable and durable and looks good if left to the weather.

George.
11-13-2004, 08:59 AM
Dalia's hull is made of ipê. Some of the strips had to be bent pretty hard, especially at the wineglass sections near the rudderpost. Also, Dalia has 6 full-length stringers, 10cm x 5 cm, which were bent against the inside of the frames. It took three of us a lot of effort, but it bent fine. I then epoxied and screwed a 5cmx5cm strip to the inside of the stringers, turning them into L-beams. They take up some interior space, but greatly strengthen the hull.

So, in answer to the question, ipê bends fine.

everyday
11-14-2004, 07:38 PM
I would not recommend iroko for decking. My boat is built from laminated iroko and has held up great however I had to replace the iroko decks after 7 years. I recommend teak, but what ever you use consider using the epoxy glue and caulking sold by teak deck systems. I used this glue with short screws to hold the planking until the epoxy started to set. I then removed the screws and filled the holes with west system epoxy before caulking it,s only been two years ...so far so good.
jd