Taylors kerosene stove VS propane ?

[stephen m]

The taylors preasurised kerosene 030 two burner stove with oven looks very nice but how is it to live with ? dose anyone use one ?

[Frank Wentzel]

I never could stand the smell of a kerosene stove. I would go for propane - with all the usual precautions about using propane on a boat.

/// Frank ///

[Meerkat]

The only person I've known to have a kerosene stove swapped out out for a propane model because it sooted up his overhead something fierce. I've since heard that that is a symptom of not starting it up correctly - which is a lot easier now than it was then, primarily due to the advent of those long butane fire lighters to fully preheat the burners.

I'm personally torn between kerosene and propane because there's a fairly significant chunk of change price difference if you include the gas tight locker, tankage, valves and plumbing. As I recall, the price of a Taylors (which includes the tank and plumbing) and an equivelent propane stove is about the same, but then you're out another $5-600 for the rest of the propane rig. Kerosene is cheaper to run too.

[stephen m]

Do you think these Taylor stoves smell of kerosene or do all kerosene stoves smell? You know they have been making them in england for a very long time without a change. Maybe that's a good thing and maybe it is not !

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

I have one.

To be slightly pedantic, there have been design changes - early stoves had cast iron bodies; today's stoves have stainless steel.

No it does not soot up the overhead; this is for two reasons:

1. If you light the stove properly and keep it clean it does not make a sooty flame

2. Like most sensible people I have a panel of 316 stainless, with insulation behind it, under the deck over both the galley stove and the cabin stove. It stops the wood deck drying out excessively due to the heat of the stove, and leaking.

I am not aware of any kerosene smell. Again, the trick is to light it properly and keep it reasonably clean.

The Taylor's stove burns rather hotter than a gas stove; there is no problem roasting or baking bread in the oven.

The top burners have cast iron enamelled simmering plates which are a good idea.

Consumption: 8 hours per burner per pint of kerosene. This means that it is quite practical to carry a large supply on board.

You will gather that I definitely like this piece of equipment.

May I put in a plug for their marine WC's and seacocks (Blakes) as well?

[Bob Smalser]

Propane scares me because it sinks and collects in low spots when you have a leak.

Kerosene doesn't have to be dirty - the grade range between "stove oil" (don't even think about it) and hardware store K2 is significant....K2 is almost as dirty but at least you can light it.

Visit your local airfield some time and see if you can get some JP-4 jet fuel. They may have a tank of "contaminated" fuel that doesn't meet spec for water or was pumped out of an aircraft being worked on. Water sinks to the bottom and is no big deal if you allow that fuel to sit for a while.

And it's often free for the asking.

[stephen m]

Andrew: is your stove iron,stainless or brass?
Are there any very good or bad points to the stove? Can you jury rig a preasure tank if you don't have one? You may have guessed that I am looking at a used one without a tank.

[stephen m]

Hello Bob,
Are you telling me that jet fuel is what I want to put in a Taylors stove ? Andrew says it already burns hotter than propane.... How fast could I get a cup of coffee ?

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Mine is brass and stainless, and I got it without a tank; I got a secondhand tank in another deal.

No, you really cannot and should not jury rig the tank installation or the piping to the stove; this is kerosene under pressure we are talking about. Get a new tank and run the right piping.

Buy the stove if the price is halfway reasonable; all the spares, and a couple of special tools, are available from Taylors, along with an excellent manual (which tends to assume that you are in mid-Pacific!)

[Bob Smalser]

Are you telling me that jet fuel is what I want to put in a Taylors stove ? Try some first....it's the cat's meow in a wicked Aladin sleeping at night in a tent...no wakeups to soot-laden sneezing.

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

I've heard that jet fuel is very good, but have not tried it. One tip from Nigel Calder which I find to be true is - the clearer the kerosene, the better. The very yellowish stuff is a poorer grade.

Some grades are dyed - we used to have Esso Blue and Aladdin Pink here in Britain - that is quite a different thing to the yellow colour.

Low grade kero will soot things up more readily and, even worse, it will carbon up the burner pipes.

[MarkC]

Origo 'The safest way to cook afloat'

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid84/p9d56a7ef5ea9d9f84103bed42859ca17/facba354.jpg

Quote 'About our company';

In Halmstad, Sweden, we develop and distribute non-pressurised stoves, ovens and portable heaters. The method is pressure-free alcohol, well known for safety and easy handling.
Simply pour denatured alcohol into the stainless steel container where fuel is absorbed and bound in a non-flammable wool material. Origo utilises natural capillary action to draw alcohol from storage to the surface. This means there is no dangerous pressure involved. Origo products are easy to handle, reliable and efficient with full power performance.

The Origo brand - a part of Dometic
and a substansial part of the overall product range within Dometic Marine.

Quote 'The Advantages'

On a boat, the demands on a stove are greater. It´s essential that it works all the time. The more parts and the more complicated the design, the greater risk of malfunctions. Origo stoves are designed to be "idiot proof", and work completely without pressure, which totally eliminates delicate parts that are likely to go wrong.

Every year reports reach us of boat fires, often with tragic consequences. Origo stoves have excellent built-in safety, thanks to their uncomplicated design, the un-pressurised burning and the connection free installation.

A boat stove should also be suitable for the situation in which it is used. Stability and strong pot holders , that can be adjusted easily, are important safety and convenience features. To be considered for use in a small boat at all, a stove must also be equipped with effective gimbals.

The high output is another good argument. All the denatured alcohol stoves have a maximum heating power output of 2000W (7000 BTU) per burner at full power, fully adjustable, and at maximum power a burning time of approx. 4,5 hours.

Durable, easy to maintain and elegant. The stainless steel surface simplifies cleaning and guarantees a long working life.

The Origo stove is easy to install and simple to use. No fuel pipes are required because the stove comes complete with integrated fuel tanks. No need for safety valves or testing for leaks. Just open the burner and ignite. It couldn´t be easier!

http://www.origo-sweden.com

US distributor:

Intercon Marketing Inc
1540 Northgate Blvd.
SARASOTA, FLORIDA 34234
Tel +1 941 355 44 88
Fax +1 941 355 15 58
info@interconmktg.com
www.interconmktg.com (http://www.interconmktg.com)

[stephen m]

OK.... So.... what is jet fuel ?

[Fishboat]

OK.... So.... what is jet fuel ? "Jet fuel" is one of the many different grades of kerosene.

[Ian Wright]

I'm another fan of Taylor stoves and cabin heaters, I have both, and have used mine for 14 years. They are VERY expensive new, I would not wish to lose that amount of cash now.
Oh yes, I've used jet fuel and it works well, sadly my (free)source dried up.
IanW

[Meerkat]

The downside with non-pressurized alcohol stoves like the Origo is that alcohol produces a very cool flame - it can take the flip side of forever to heat things up. I believe they also pump an even worse amount of water into the cabin than do proppane or kerosene stoves.

Stove alcohol is also very expensive.

[Meerkat]

Andrew and Ian; you have both helped me see the light. If and when, mine will be a Taylors!

[Frank E. Price]

Since 1970 I have tried to cook on a couple of alcohol stoves, and lived aboard for several years each with kerosene, propane, and diesel stoves. My experiences:

Kerosene - cheap, hot and dirty. Fiddly to light. Too hot for simmering without fooling with a flame disperser.

Propane - cheap, clean, and immediately hot and controllable.

Diesel - fiddly to light; hot enough, but you heat up the whole boat whether you want to or not; cheap, but you have to heat longer to get the stovetop up to temp, and controlling oven temp takes awhile; dirty, but more on deck rather than overhead, and only when things go awry. Proper installation is critical. Involves a learning curve.

In a cool climate I'd go for diesel, otherwise propane. If cooking were the only consideration I would say propane is far better than anything else. To me the ideal cruising boat would be a 42' pinky schooner with a wood stove in the forecastle and a propane range in the galley.

Frank

[stephen m]

Frank,
Did you use a Taylors stove or one like it ? And is there a difference in the way various kero stoves behave.
What do you say Ian and Andrew and anyone else ?

[Ian Wright]

Originally posted by stephen m:
[QB]Frank,
And is there a difference in the way various kero stoves behave.
QB]I have used a number of Primus type stoves and an Origo alcohol (meths) stove. I hated the Origo. Slow to use and expensive to run. Taylor stoves, or rather the burners, need to be maintained, which involves cleaning the burners,,, or replace them every year or two. I like to pre-heat with a hand blowtorch and a propane/butaine mixture rather than alcohol.It's quicker and the burners last longer. Taylors do it that way,,,,,,
Find a good second hand one and fit new burners would be my advice.
Andrew is dead right about other Blakes products of course. Blakes seacocks are the best, the standard that others aim below.......

IanW

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Taylors use the same burner parts as other pressure kerosene stoves - indeed, there are only two makers of these in the world - one in Sweden and one in Portugal.

Yes they are dirtier than propane, and also hotter. I don't really agree about the "fiddly to light" bit, because you can put the pan, kettle, whatever on top of the burner whilst it is heating up, if like me you use alcohol for this (Ian uses a gas torch) so you use the heat that is pre-heating the burner to start cooking.

The Taylor's cast iron simmering plate works well and is simple.

No-one has been blown to bits by a kerosene stove, and no-one has been forced to eat cold food because the thread on the fitting on the bottle did not match the fitting on the system!

[Frank E. Price]

Stephen,

I've never used a Taylor's stove. My kero stove was an RV type with Primus burners. For what it was it worked fine, until I hauled it out to the cockpit under sail and dropped it overboard. That was my happiest day with it.

I've had problems with all the stoves I've used, except the propane stove. But I suppose it depends on where you are, and where you're going. I haven't sailed far from propane suppliers or without a plentiful supply, or beyond the N. American west coast.

Best of luck. They all work anyway.

Frank

[ 10-18-2003, 08:26 PM: Message edited by: Frank E. Price ]

[Meerkat]

Looks like Defender Industries is no longer offering Taylors stoves in the US, alas.

Anyone know of other sellers?

[stephen m]

I spoke to Defender 2 days ago and they still sell them. The fellow I spoke to said Taylors was having some problems getting orders out and if you order one you may need to wait for some weeks.
One of the things that got me started on Taylors stoves is that they seem to look the part for an old wooden boat like mine. Of course someone will always say, " do you want to look at it or use it ! ". But then why a wood boat ? I want to use it and I want to like it.
Franks idea of a propane aft and a wood burning Shipmate foward sound just right to me but on a 30 ft boat there can't be both.
In the best of all worlds I would have a very small wood burning Shipmate with a couple of burners swiched to propane. I don't think that has been done.
But almost everything involves a compromise. The Taylors I am looking at is all brass and looks great. with the kind help of all here I have come to find out that it also works.

I would never have thought to put jet fuel in such a stove.
So the guy in the airport says, "Why do you want just one gallon of fuel ?" To which I suppose I would reply," because am buying enough for the next six months.
Is that what to say?

many thanks,
Steve

[Meerkat]

Steve thanks for the info/good news. I looked at Defender's website and they used to have them listed online, but they don't seem to now. Even searching their website didn't bring them up.

I don't recall how many pints are in a gallon (8?), but I think the 030 stove is listed as using .5pt/hr. 16 hours/gallon then?

BTW, are you thinking of the 030 or the 030L?

[ 10-19-2003, 03:05 AM: Message edited by: Meerkat ]

[MarkC]

Metho stoves are bad??

'The high output is another good argument. All the denatured alcohol stoves have a maximum heating power output of 2000W (7000 BTU) per burner at full power, fully adjustable, and at maximum power a burning time of approx. 4,5 hours.'

Expensive?

I dont know about availability of Metho in the US but to buy Metho (in Australia) was AUS$2.50 per liter (75 cents US) available in every supermarket and hardware store.

[Ian Wright]

Originally posted by MarkC:
Metho stoves are bad??

Expensive?

It's not the meths you burn that bothers me, it's the evaporation of the meths that is left that annoys.

IanW

[Leon Steyns]

Origo is also sold in The Netherlands as Electrolux. Haven't used one myself, but a Waarschip-sailor I know uses a two-burner Electrolux and is very satisfied with it. Low fuel consumption, 1 liter will boil in about 6-7 minutes.

I don't like propane, too dangerous in a boat if you ask me.

Those Taylor stoves look very good, though. I guess they're like AGA cookers: buy once, use in the family for many generations.

Greets, Leon Steyns.

[stephen m]

Meerkat,
The 030 is the right size for me and it is the one I have seen. It's in good condition but is missing the tank. Taylors ,in England, says not to juey rig the tank. So... I guess i'll try to find a tank.

[MarkC]

Metho powered stoves/burners

Ian - I read this on the Origo site. It was from their FAQ. http://www.origo-sweden.com

Question =
'Do I have to put on the rubber gaskets after each cooking, so that the fuel won´t evaporate?

Answer =

No, the rubber gaskets are only necessary to use during winter storage, or when not using the stove for longer periods of time. At 30 degrees Celsius the evaporation is only a few grams every 24 hours.' End Quote.

It looks like you can place rubber seals in to stop all evaporation - say if your not going on the boat for 2 or more weeks.

This Origo/Dometic/Electrolux system looks like a serious alternative for LPG/Natural Gas/Propane/Butane (bottled gass) installations. No gass alarms needed, no Professional installation required. The catch is that meths stoves are slower, but less expensive, safer, less complex - a propane burner boils water in 4 mins a meths burner in 8 mins...

Expensive to run - no it wasn't for me - You dont need special 'stove fuel' - try to buy your ethanol/methanol in bulk - us Aussies are lucky with cheap meths coming from our Ethanol industry (that good old sugar cane!)

Origo also offer a half meths, half electricity when elect is available.

And as for needing a propane blow torch or bottle of alcohol to preheat and light a diesel or other cooker :eek: - sounds a bit too much to me. Use the meths stove - its even easier than a wood stove.

[ 10-19-2003, 04:12 PM: Message edited by: MarkC ]

[Gerald]

The tread is listed as "Taylors kerosene stove VS propane ?". There is a a lot of information here about Taylors but what about the VS propane part? Frank was a live aboard and loved propane. One person states that propane is too dangerous but stopped short of explaining why.
So, Taylor stoves are cute and would be tricky to say that I have one in my classic sailboat.
Would like to hear the down side of propane that drives someone to buy the more expensive and troublesome Taylor. Maybe Lloyds of London won't insure boats with propane??? Guess my real question is this: I have propane bottles enclosed in a stainless steel box with a rubber hose running from the box to my stove. I fill my own bottles and control the pressure. Should I tear that mess out of the boat and install a Taylor?
Gerald Niffenegger

[Bob Smalser]

Originally posted by Gerald:
One person states that propane is too dangerous but stopped short of explaining why.
From above:


Propane scares me because it sinks and collects in low spots when you have a leak.

[Gerald]

Good point Bob. Please correct me if I am wrong but it is my understanding there is an additive in propane to make it smell, so that you will know when you have a leak. Then again maybe you mean when in use it stinks? The smell of diesel or kerosene is not my list of favorite smells inside a boat. However, my 20+ gallon tank could leak and fill the bilge with that smelly stuff.
That part about the gas settling in low places, if there is a leak, is the kicker.
Gerald

[Gerald]

Bob I read your message as stinks instead of sinks. Sorry
Gerald

[Lulworth]

Sorry if this is a departure from the choice provided in the title but I am going to put in a cautious vote in favor of pressurized alcohol (with a remote tank). The real measure of value of a stove is how long it takes to boil a pot of water and that depends on how many btu's can be delivered through burning the fuel. This can be increased either by increasing the heat content of the fuel and/or increasing the delivery rate of that fuel (and oxygen). Pressurized alcohol gets over its low heat content problem by increasing the delivery rate of the fuel. My impression (I haven't measured it) is that pressurized alcohol boils water as fast (in terms of my perception in the morning waiting for coffee) as any other that I've used (propane and diesel). Un-pressurized alcohol is practically useless. The trick to alcohol (and any other stove fuel that is liquid at room temperature-- like, say, kero and diesel) is to get the feed tube that passes over the burner preheated enough to vaporize the liquid … this must be done carefully. As I’m sure most folks here know, the procedure for pressurized alcohol is to bleed a bit of liquid into a tray laying below the burner, light the liquid, then after the flames die down a bit (give enough liquid for 1-2 minutes) turn on the fuel and cook away. Why, just earlier this month {caution, a bit of a tale coming here but be patient, there is a point} a friend and I were exiting cape cod canal on a moonless night at 2:00 am into a heck of a standing wave pattern created by the Buzzards bay rollers interacting with a strong counter current when the engine (an atomic four) died of stirred-up-crud-disease causing us to hastily hoist the sails and proceed to tack up the relatively narrow channel. By the time we had cleared the oncoming tug and its tow and were well into Buzzard’s bay, I felt we deserved a bit of something. We had a packet of Raman noodles so my crew proceeded to fire-up the pressurized stove. The key to the above mentioned lighting procedure is to use only a bit of liquid but, alas (no blame here, it can happen to anyone) too much was released (it’s hard to see) and on our then course the flames started licking the galley cabin sides/ceiling. The solution was another quick tack so that, the now 3 foot flames, passed happily out the companionway hatch. It was quite a remarkable sight, at night from the wheel, to see flames dancing out of the below-decks but it was short lived and no harm was done and we had our noodles (which, by the way, only taste good on a cold night on a boat or a mountain). The point here is that any fuel can be dangerous. Propane (like gasoline vapor) is heavier than air and will settle in the bilge mixing with air waiting to turn your boat into huge potato cannon. The danger of any liquid fuel is the need to preheat the delivery tube. None of these liquid fuels will blow up so the potential accidents happen slowly enough that they can be dealt with with common sense. So, if treated carefully, alcohol in a remote pressure tank with a shut off valve at the tank, works great and is much safer than propane and, in my albeit limited experience, is less smelly than Kero or Diesel.

Apologies for taking this thread on a wordy detour,

David.

[Meerkat]

I belive that both propane and natural gas have an additive that gives it that characteristic rotten onion smell (not at all like the rotten egg smell of methane).

[Lion]

Have used both and have reservations with both -
- LPG/Propane can be dangerous in confined spaces: lit a caravan stove many years ago and blew my eyebrows off and my 3 year old daughter out the door - slow, undetected leak.
- Taylors type kero/parraffin, can be real messy and fiddly to start. And they can soot, I've done it!!

If I was living aboard and was serious about food and cooking I would be looking at the Wallas diesel stoves. No need for additional fuel scource, electronic ignition, low fuel consumption, very easily cleaned ceramic cooktops, gimballing option and venting for both combustion air intake and exhaust. www.wallas.fi (http://www.wallas.fi) I undrestand that they are pricey but then quality is never cheap !

Lion

[Meerkat]

Lion, I take these are not the traditional diesel stoves with the drip burners (?) and 12 or 24 volt force draft that some require and that take a long time to heat up?

[Bob Smalser]

Originally posted by Lion:
Have used both and have reservations with both -
- LPG/Propane can be dangerous in confined spaces: lit a caravan stove many years ago and blew my eyebrows off and my 3 year old daughter out the door - slow, undetected leak.
- Taylors type kero/parraffin, can be real messy and fiddly to start. And they can soot, I've done it!!
LionAnd if there's ever an accident, you can't see alcohol flames.

For BTU power per weight, nothing beats gasoline, still the standard for tent heaters within US Army Alaska in the form of the Yukon Stove.

But gasoline requires a stack and those fumes, just like propane, easily kill in a slight mishap. That's why many of us used private kerosene Aladdins burning aviation JP4. Close to the BTUs w/o the need for a stack or an all-night fire watch.

[Aramas]

dont know about availability of Metho in the US but to buy Metho (in Australia) was AUS$2.50 per liter (75 cents US) available in every supermarket and hardware store I want to know where you get your money changed :cool: At todays rates $2.50AUD is $1.75USD.

The deal with alcohol vs kero/diesel is that it only has about half the specific energy, ie it takes twice as much to do the same thing. On the up side you can make it yourself on a driftwood fire on the beach, and as a byproduct can produce a rather nice tipple :rolleyes:
Mmm - The still's a bubblin' and there's oak chips toasting in my kitchen as I'm typing. I wouldn't make a boat out of that stuff but it sure does make a nice bourbon.

The stove that I find most interesting is the Wallas (http://www.wallas.fi) catalytic kero/diesel thingies. No flame at all, and very efficient if their website can be believed. I've never found anyone that uses them though, and they don't have a dealer here in AU.

[ 10-20-2003, 03:06 AM: Message edited by: Aramas ]

[MarkC]

Yeah - Aramas, that exchange rate was in 1999 - I think the Aussie dollar was what...45cents at that stage to the US dollar! Like I said, Aussies have their Ethanol/Methanol industry from the sugar cane to thank for cheap fuel.

Here is the Wallis 95 DP in comparison with the Origo 3000 - (the two burner models). I find their out-puts similar - Wallis looks more 'modern'.

Wallas 95DP
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid85/p38d30fd25ff69c5b50b34dd9fae9b4a4/fac7065e.jpg
Power 900-1800W
Fuel Consumption 0,09-0,18 l/h

Origo 3000
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid85/pee0fe744d2904de54f536391159894e0/fac7065d.jpg
Approx. 2000W (7000 BTU/burner)
Burning Time Approx. 4.5h/burner, max. power
Fuel capacity 1.2 litres

To quote from above,

'You cant see alcohol flames'.

But you can feel the heat, I could see a blue flame - you can put-out accidents with a tea-towl/cloth.

But, to also quote from above,

'None of these liquid fuels will blow up so the potential accidents happen slowly enough that they can be dealt with with common sense. So, if treated carefully, alcohol in a remote pressure tank with a shut off valve at the tank, works great and is much safer than propane and, in my albeit limited experience, is less smelly than Kero or Diesel.'

In my experience, unpresurised tanks using the 'vapourising through pre-heating method' also work well.

[ 10-20-2003, 07:41 AM: Message edited by: MarkC ]

[Leon Steyns]

Let me explain why I don't like propane/butane on a boat. If any leaks occur, the propane/butane fumes will collect in the bilge because they're heavier than air. In The Netherlands, liquid gas on a boat is fine, as long as the containers are stored outside the cabin and the storage bin vents overboard.

When camping with our tent, we use a propane two-burner stove outside. Since it is a level, well-vented space (despite being under the tent overhangs), we haven't had any problems.

Still, every now and then there are stories of tents/caravans burned down because of gas leaks.

Fire on a boat is the most dangerous hazard, despite the surrounding water. Hence my reluctance towards liquid gas.

Greets, Leon Steyns.

[imported_Steven Bauer]

I'm interested in the Wallas stoves, also. We had a thread in here a couple of months ago.

This is the one that I want:

http://www.wallas.fi/images/tuotteet/5.jpg

It burns paraffin (kerosene, I think), and vents to the outside. And draws combustion air from the outside, too. I don't want any combustion fumes in the very small space that will be the interior of my boat. I've heard they are expensive but I haven't looked for a price for this model (the 800) yet.

Steven

[imported_Steven Bauer]

Oh yeah, there is also an optional blower/cover so it can act as a heater!

http://www.rivermarine.com/heating/wallas/w800/W800.gif

Steven

[stephen m]

Besides the Taylors 030 is there any other stove that really looks the part for an early 20th gaff cutter ? ( The Shipmate is great but burning wood in this case is not.)
Also, Is the Taylors cast iron stove the same technology as the current ones and can anyone advise on how I could see a photo of one.

[Meerkat]

The folks over on the yahoo mailing list "MicroCruising" have been chatting up a storm about this: http://www.zodi.com/combo.html

Not remotely traditional, but a very interesting idea! Cabin warmer, lantern, cookstove, water heater and hair drier in one! :D

[ 10-20-2003, 08:57 PM: Message edited by: Meerkat ]

[stephen m]

Meerkat,
I can't take myself seriously after seeing a product like that ! Please ! Don't show me anything else lik that ! We're salty ! We revel in inconvenience ! This is The Wooden Boat Forum ! WOODEN BOAT !

Steve

[Ian Wright]

Originally posted by stephen m:
Besides the Taylors 030 is there any other stove that really looks the part for an early 20th gaff cutter ? .The 030 is the top of the range, two burner top, one burner oven. The oven will get hot enough to bake bread or melt lead.
Less expensive is a two burner top plus hot box oven (no burner but takes it's heat from the top burners, or a two burner without oven for simple two pot cooking.
Any will look the part and do the job.

IanW.

[RichardBlake]

Hi, Stephen,
There was a thread on the YBW practical site about a year ago with lots of pros and cons, plus tips for using Taylors. Should be able to find it by copying and pasting this:
http://www.ybw.com/cgi-bin/forums/showthreaded.pl?Cat=&Board=pbo&Number=263029&Search=true&Forum=pbo&Words=like%20taylors%20cookers&Match=Entire%20Phrase&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Old= allposts&Main=263029
(must be an easier way but I'm computerally challenged...)
Richard

[TimothyB]

Here's one way to fix that link...

http://makeashorterlink.com/?D26A32946

Try that one out. I cobbled it back together ;)

--T

[stephen m]

Thanks Timothy and Richard,
A lot of information there !

Steve

[RichardBlake]

Wow, well-done and thanks Timothy. I shall now gracefully retire back to the stone age where I seem to belong. Anytime you need a flint bound into a cleft stick, let me know. Should be able to manage that!
Richard

[TimothyB]

Originally posted by RichardBlake:
Wow, well-done and thanks Timothy. I shall now gracefully retire back to the stone age where I seem to belong. Anytime you need a flint bound into a cleft stick, let me know. Should be able to manage that!
RichardHey! I might need that to get out that riven timber for my keel...

Just go here:

http://www.makeashorterlink.com/

copy/paste and you get a new short link. Its a nice service.

--T

[PeterSibley]

Im really rather suprised at the supposed difficulty of lighting kero stoves.I've never owned anything as delightful as a Taylors ,though I would dearly love one, I have however used Primus type stoves for the last 40 years or so. Not really difficult at all with a little bit of timing.A useful tip is to do your preheating bypassing the heating cup and its pool of metho,(thats probably the hardest thing to use aboard,pouring metho , even from a squeeze bottle can be messy).I suggest a twisted wire clip with a 4" twisted wire handle so shaped as to fit around the stem just above the metho trough.The working end has an absorbant woolly fibre mop( I don't remember what I used,sorry) which is dipped into the jar of meths, slipped into place and lit.No pouring and much quicker.

[formerlyknownasprince]

Then, there's always the generator - in my case, sufficiently "quirky" to fit with a wooden boat - driven by a Lister STW2 - but it boils the kettle in about 90 seconds - and powers the nuclear zapper for other non-culinary delights.

I'm going to upgrade from a 500W inverter to an 1800W or larger sometime soon, so that I can just use the solar panel / battery setup for coffee and food heating.

That said, at present I'm building the box for 2 propane bottles to run a 4 burner SMEV stove / griller / oven combo and a rail mounted barbecue. Yes, I'm concerned about the possibility of a propane leak and I'm going to run a couple of 12 volt computer fans (current draw 0.13 amps each) drawing from low in the bilge.

Ian

[Paul Denison]

I would think you would want a spark proof motor, not a computer fan.

[cbob]

Steve,
As an old time Marine Sales Engineer for a major international oil coompany, I learned that there is a spectrum of products called "the mid barrel", all distilled products in general,from dirty diesel, up to I suppose oderless lamp
oil. Some jet fuels are in this range but there are still some, for those that operate in sub zero temperatures that have a very low flash point, and would be dangerously un-suitable, like using gasoline and could blow you and your boat up, so when buying that gallon of JP whatever number, at the airfield fuel station, please be sure you don't get the hot stuff.
From a practical stand point, I have been using paint thinner {mineral spirits} to clean paint brushes, fuel my anchor light and fuel a pressurized kerosine (Primus) type stove for over 30 years. This product is more readily available, packaged in, now plastic,one gallons, burns clean, and is almost oderless. In this modern world just go to any paint, hardware, or marine store and there it is. With the amount being used the price is not too important, but availability and convenience are, and because of it's intended use the flash point is safly high. I have suggested this over the years to various boating friends, and those that have tried it seem to continue using it, altho some buy the same product with a little red color to it, by the quart, for more thasn the price of a gallon of "mineral spirits", I think it's a wife kind of thing. Happy Cooking
cbob

[stephen m]

Dear cbob,
It seems as though Flash Point should be at the center of any conversation about kero fuel for boat stoves.
Thank you for bringing that up ! That is yet another thing I had not thought about . What should the Flash Point be for stove fuel ? That is to say between what and what ? A assume there are specs for various keros or anything flamable. How would one find out that data ?
I'm also not going to be useing enough stove fuel to make its cost a major factor in what I choose to use.
But at the end of the day, assuming one is willing to go to the airport or do what ever they must to get the best fuel...... What is it ?
By the way,
It's possible you saved someones life today !
Thank you

Steve

[Meerkat]

"Stove fuel" (Colman's) is white (unleaded, no performance additives, water-clear) gas. Much lower flash point than any kerosene, including standard commercial jet fuel, I believe. Also evaporates/generates vapor faster - boom! Military jet fuels might be the ones to worry about flash points with, but those aren't usually available at the local airport ;)

Aviation gas (which is gas used in piston engined aircraft, not JP4 kerosene for jets) is something to keep far away from in a boat, unless you're a hydrofoil or something! That stuff needs very very little excuse to go WOOSH!.

One consideration when using jet fuels is that they have additives for such problems as low temperature viscosity (it's COLD at 30,000'!) and bacterial (or was it algae?) growth in fuel tanks (no joke - I was surprised when I learned about it!).

Corrected per ACB's note that gas has a lower flash point, not higher.

[ 10-24-2003, 02:41 AM: Message edited by: Meerkat ]

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

I believe that you meant to write " much lower flashpoint "

The higher the flashpoint, the less readily inflammable the substance is.

[Frank E. Price]

If it ain't rusty and smoking, it ain't real, eh?

[Meerkat]

Thanks Andrew; fixed it.

[Gerald]

I used a brass SEVA 123 for more than 20 years while elk hunting and camping. It never failed me. It passed thru my mind that I might use it in my 23' sailboat. However, I decided it was far to dangerous and I have not yet found a supplier for white gas here in Brazil. Maybe unleaded straight from the pump would work?????
There is also another little brass camp stove that my brother had good luck with that burns almost anything. Here is a site with reviews for the Optimus No. 8R Hunter . http://www.outdoorreview.com/Stoves/Optimus+No.+8R+Hunter/PRD_77077_2959crx.aspx
I know my 123 heats like a blowtorch and according to the reviews so does the 8R Hunter. Using diesel fuel it might be a safe option for someone with smaller needs?
BTW This entire thread has me a little upset! I have between 1,500 and 2,000 man hours of work on my boat and 8 days away from launch. I can't enter the boat without thinking how nice it would be to have a Taylor's instead of the new stainless propane unit I just installed.
Gerald Niffenegger

[Aramas]

8 days away from launch Good going! I hope you'll slip us some photos. Good luck on the big day smile.gif

[imported_Steven Bauer]

Gerald, I've had the Svea 123 for twenty years, also. I once heard that you could burn unleaded gas in it and one time I forgot to bring white gas on an overnight hike so I stopped at a gas station and bought a little 'high test'. Big mistake! That little stove just about turned into a jet engine! It melted the bottom of the pot and the whole tank of fuel, that usually lasts an hour, was burned up in 5 minutes! And the whole stove was filty dirty afterward. I ended up buying the rebuild kit and replacing all the innards of the stove. Maybe if I got 'regular' instead of 'premium' unleaded?

8 days away? Fantastic! Keep us posted.

Steven

[stephen m]

Thought I would do some research.
The following Q's and A's are the result of a conversation with a represenitive of Taylors in the UK yesterday:
Q. What is the best fuel for your stoves?
A. We recommend lamp oil quality kero. It's very highly refined. It's ment for reading which requires a white light. It's used in Aladdin lamps and All the sulfer is out.
Q. Brand?
A.We recommend Calo Oils. (in the UK) They can answer your questions about Flash Points and anything else about fuel. They can be reached at: 0 1744833535 ( In the US drop the 0 and add 0 11 44)
Q. What is the best way to light the stove?
A. We use a torch. (Some discussion about various torches....) His comment: Not hot enough for welding!
Q. how long dose it take?
A. 1 1/2 -2 min with a torch, 3 min with alcohol.
Q. What about gel .
A. gel is least efficient. It leaves a sticky residue in the pre heat cup and because it is metholated (sp?) spirits it burns much cooler so it takes longer.
He mentioned that the burners work best at mid or high range. They tend to carbon up if you try to simmer.
Q. Is the balance jet necessary and what dose it do?
A. It will work without the balance jet until it begins to pulse or surge which the jet prevents. It can actually go out.
Q. Will the lack of the ballance jet cause it to flair up?
A. No
He says : Normal burners have 4 legs however at a point there was a 2 leg burner. During that time the balance jet was done away with and they put gauze in the burner.
Q. When did you stop making the cast iron model?
A. The 1890's

[Gerald]

I read several more reports about the SVEA 123 and one fella claims to use only 89 octane gas direct from the pump. As I put the final coat of varnish on the mast today I was still laughing about the thought of high octane in a 123. The little fella makes a scary sound with Coleman fuel!
This tread has me thinking about changing over to something safer. Maybe doing a little machine work and change the propane heads over to a MSR or Optimus burners as shown in this site:
http://www.backcountry-equipment.com/stoves/stove_overview.html
Would only set me back about $70 a head and would be set up to burn almost any fuel. Not a Taylor but sure as heck cheaper!
Thanks to all of you that commented here you may have saved a life. It sure got me off my hind end and yesterday I installed a bilge fan that almost sucks the sides of the boat in!
Gerald

[Meerkat]

a bilge fan that almost sucks the sides of the boat in!
ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!

[Meerkat]

BTW, you do know they have propane (and Carbon MOnoxide) detectors for boats don't you? Most modern marine propane appliances have Monoxide dectors with auto-shutoff I think.

[Gerald]

Thanks Meer. My son is coming down for a visit in Feb. and is bringing some detection units. I was going to have him bring detectors from Home Depot. Someone on the forum pointed out that the non boat units might not stand up to salt air?
On my smaller boat I always shut the gas off every time I use the stove and this boat is set up the same way. Stuff happens and there is an outside chance there could be a leak inside the stainless box and then the stainless box leaks and then the blower isn't as strong as I thought! That Taylor might look like a bargain when the boat is on fire and I am 50 miles off shore!
BTW Meer if you are having bilge problems I can let you in on how to make that blower! hee hee
Gerald

[formerlyknownasprince]

That little stove just about turned into a jet engine We had a little housefire last December (my cousin's house was one of 43 lost that week in our area) and when the propane bottles went off they DID turn into jet engines.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid44/pd2123a54d877dced78ec38ea2496ea6f/fcdd5374.jpg

The flame from the bottles was about 3' deep and 15+' long - with an incredible roar. We just stood there with our mouths agape. It was this huge horizontal jet of blue fire. There wasn't anywhere to go (we were surrounded by fire) and hoped that they didn't blow. I wish I'd taken a photo of it.

Ian

[stephen m]

What to say ?... I'm glad your here to tell the tale.

[Meerkat]

Originally posted by Gerald:
Thanks Meer. My son is coming down for a visit in Feb. and is bringing some detection units. I was going to have him bring detectors from Home Depot. Someone on the forum pointed out that the non boat units might not stand up to salt air?
On my smaller boat I always shut the gas off every time I use the stove and this boat is set up the same way. Stuff happens and there is an outside chance there could be a leak inside the stainless box and then the stainless box leaks and then the blower isn't as strong as I thought! That Taylor might look like a bargain when the boat is on fire and I am 50 miles off shore!
BTW Meer if you are having bilge problems I can let you in on how to make that blower! hee hee
GeraldI think US Coast Guard regulations require a remotely operated solenoid valve to shut off gas flow at the bottle when the attached appliances are not being used. There is also a requirement for an isolated (sealed) gas locker with overboard venting, thus it would have to be mounted with the lowest point above the waterline (heavy gas: low vent point).

The only bilge problems I have are those of the Misc. Non-boat bilge on the WBF. Those are managable without a fan; thanks for the offer though ;)

[Frank E. Price]

stephen m, I sure agree with your Taylor man about lamp oil. It's great stuff, though I've only used it in lamps. I use it in my lamps when I can afford it at the same time it's available. Burns noticably cleaner and brighter than anything else I've tried, including helicopter fuel. But around here the price after discount for a case of quart jugs is about $8.oo a quart. Kerosene is about $6.50 a gallon in five gallon jugs. I understand lamp oil is something other than just highly refined kerosene. Not sure what the deal is there.

The best kerosene I've used was Standard Oil's Pearl kerosene, but haven't seen it in years.

Has anyone tried yanking the kerosene burners from a Taylor and putting in propane burners? As someone once said (Bolger?), "Better a quick end from a propane explosion than a slow death from kerosene." (Maybe it was Kasanoff.)

Frank

[stephen m]

Hi Frank
The Taylors fellow in the UK said that one of the reasons they recommend that company is because in addition to being the best fuel it is also very cheap (comparitively).
Of course, that isn't doing us very much good.

RE: the comment of Bolger or Kasinoff: I have other plans.