Chainplate position for a gaff sloop

[Michael s/v Sannyasin]

Hi folks, I've been reading this board for a while, but have just registered to be able to post.

My Westsail 32 doesn't qualify as a wooden boat, but its gaff rig could use the expertise of those on this board that might be familiar with them.

The boat's original owner (presumably) got expert advice about locating the chainplates, running backstays and shroud attachment points on the mast. However, I've found that I have a difficult time keeping any tension on the forestay and staysail stay without skewing the top of the mast forward. It's not really a problem with rake, but more with bowing the mast.

I think that the topmast contributes greatly to pulling the top of the mast forward as it doesn't have any shrouds positioned to pull aft. I've considered removing the topmast because I've never hoisted the jib-headed topsail (and probably won't), and if I do remove the topmast, I would be interested in making any other changes that might be necessary to more adequately support the top of the mast at the same time.

My question is, where do they normally position the chainplates on a gaff main mast? On gaff schooners I've looked at, the forward shroud is located just barely forward of the mast, and the aft shroud quite a bit further back... almost the opposite of what I have here:

http://www.greatsoftware.net/sailing/profile_close.jpg

Here is a shot from further away to give you an idea of what happens to the top of the mast... and this is without really any tension on the forestay.

http://www.greatsoftware.net/sailing/profile.jpg

And here is a close up of the top of the mast shot up through the spreaders, gives a little more detail.

http://www.greatsoftware.net/sailing/mast_top.jpg

Aside from the horrible state of the varnish and paint, does anyone see anything wrong with the way this mast is rigged?

Thanks!
Mike

[John B]

I think its a bit spooky not having shrouds on your topmast Mike. I don't think I'd be very happy with that personally.
The lowers are probably in the stock position and really, there's nothing wrong with them to my mind. The forward lowers being more forward just adds to the base and helps to stop aft pumping. Its what I'd expect to see.I left mine a bit forward of original for that reason.
I added an extra set of shrouds aft of the aft lowers but the negative to that is the boom won't run out as far. For me its not a problem, you want to sail the boat so the gaff doesn't touch the spreaders and I have no vang ( and an overlarge main)so twist means the boom can't be allowed out too far. You'll have a vang ?, your main is smaller and will have less twist so you Do want to be able ease it out further.

Its also normal to have some prebend forward on the basis that when the main is set and is pulling back,the mast comes back into column.
So the way I would ( have done) approached rig tuning is to try and acheive that.
Is your jib on hanks? because that would explain to me why the rig has static prebend forward. My jib is wire luffed so the forestay is redundant. My rig is straight static but when I set the jib up I pull prebend in forward and , as I said before, when the main goes up and some sheet comes on, the mast comes back into column.

My terminology( so we're talking the same language) headstay, forestay, inner forestay( for the staysail)
some would call that headstay, jib stay, forestay. I think the second stay in is the primary on that rig so I'd call it forestay.

[ 11-15-2005, 05:59 PM: Message edited by: John B ]

[outofthenorm]

Mike, when you say the top of the mast is getting pulled fwd, do you mean the top of the mast or the top of the topmast? I think I see that you have runners set up on the mast, but are there any for the topmast? It appears that there is a topmast-stay and two backstays up there. Is that correct?

Also, I'm curious why you don't use your topsail. Rigged properly, it's a cinch to handle.

- Norm

[Michael s/v Sannyasin]

Thanks John!

The topmast does have shrouds, the flying jib stay anchors it forward, then there are two shrouds that go directly port and starboard down through the end of the spreaders and attach to the center chainplate on each side. But, this doesn't keep the topmast from bowing forward.

Perhaps if my spreaders raked backwards at an angle that would provide enough aft support for the topmast, but I might have to reposition my chainplates for that.

I do not have a vang, and with a canoe stern, not really much of a horse for the mainsheet (which is attached to the end of the boom).

I don't think that I'd have a problem with the gaff against the spreaders, but if I did run an extra shroud aft of the aftmost one as you mentioned (something I wouldn't mind doing). Then, there might be the possibility of chaffe on the mainsail. Though, I think the main would have to be pretty far out for that, and I probably wouldn't suffer too much if I had to sheet in a bit more to prevent that.

Still, maybe none of this is necessary, I think that when the main is up, it does tend to pull the mast at least close to being in column.

http://www.greatsoftware.net/sailing/sannyasin1s.jpg

I do have a hanked jib and stays'il, the stays'il has a wired luff (not really sure about the jib). It just seems like I can't get as much tension on the luff as I'd like (maybe I just need to use the winch and stop just sweating the haylards).

So, maybe it's not really a problem, but I just don't know if that bow is normal :)

Mike

[Michael s/v Sannyasin]

Norm,

There are no runners to the top of the topmast, just the stays that I described going out through the ends of the spreaders. I would imagine with the topsail up, that would provide some significant pull aft. Interesting idea to add runners to the topmast... my runners loop around the mast at about the spot where the stays'il stay attaches to the mast, which is about halfway between the spreaders and the top of the mast.

The thing I worry most about bowing forward is the top of the mast itself, I don't want the topmast to exert too much strain on the top of the mast.

I haven't raised the topsail yet because the previous owner "forgot" to rig the line that you attach the luff of the topsail to. That line needs to be spliced around the top mast, then, you hank the topsail onto this line which attaches at the base of the mast. As you raise the topsail, the head of the sail hits the spliced loop and pulls it up to the top of the top mast, and then you harden that line at the base of the mast.

Also, I haven't worked out where to attach the sheets for the flying jib which they say you should fly to offset the topsail when it is on.

But, the main reason is that I rarely go out in less than 10kts, and by 15-20, I'm starting to reef, so, not sure how often I'd need the extra sails!

http://www.greatsoftware.net/sailing/Topsail.jpg

The previous owner took this picture.

[Thad]

I have a letter from a former Albert Strange Association Honorable Secretary referiing to a rule of thumb giving draft aft to shrouds equal to 1/12 of the mast attachment height. For every 12 feet of height on the mast the chainplate would be set one foot aft. No need for runners with this set up. With the topmast shrouds run over the spreaders they have no draft aft.

[Bob Cleek]

It's not a chainplate problem. It's a "no backstay on the topmast" "problem." It isn't a problem at all, though. I'd say the forward bend is normal and nothing to worry about. There is no load on the topmast when you aren't flying a topsail, so she pulls forward some because you have your headstay set tightly. It shouldn't be so tight that it bends the topmast. When you do rig the topsail, the tension between the topsail head and clew should pull the topmast back into line. (You wouldn't ordinarily be flying a headsail without the topsail, see.) I'd live with it the way it is for a while before rigging topmast running backs, which would be a large pain in the butt when tacking, unless you ran backstays doubled to your highfield levers. That arrangement can be seen on "Dyarchy," which is pictured extensively in Hiscock's "Cruising Under Sail." (Though often not identified in the pictures.) I can't see it being worth the trouble on a rig this size, though.

I also would not be too quick to pull the topmast and abandon the ability to fly the topsail. The boat appears relatively lightly canvassed and the "Wetsnail" isn't known to be an easily driven hull, though well built, heavy and seaworthy. You will surely appreciate that topsail in light winds. It makes a big difference.

As I recall, the Westsail 32 hulls were a fibreglass version of the Atkin "Eric" design (Or maybe it was the "Ingrid," one of the two... whichever is 32' long.) You can get a copy of the sail and rigging plan for the original, which as I remember, was designed for a gaff rig such as you have. That would pretty conclusively answer any rigging questions. There is a set of plans in one of the MoTorBoaTing Ideal Series books, but it is long out of print. WoodenBoat store may carry the plans for the Atkin Eric. If not, contact the Atkins, who should be able to help.

[ 11-15-2005, 08:39 PM: Message edited by: Bob Cleek ]

[outofthenorm]

I agree that the forward bend isn't something to get stressed about.The pull aft of the main and topsail will pretty well take care of it. I would recommend running backs for the topmast though. My boat has a pole mast rather than a seperate topmast, but in addition to a jibstay and two shrouds (rigged about the same as you describe) I also have upper backstays that are no trouble at all. The upper set goes to the masthead, the lower set to just above the spreaders. They both terminate at the same point approx 4 ft off the deck. There is a tackle from there for tension, but a leader and a highfield lever would be even better. I also agree that you shouldn't be too quick to give up the topsails. Once you get it sorted, I think you'll find that all that canvas up high does a world of good. - Norm

PS: Here's a pic of the Fiddlers Green with topsail set. No jib topsail that day.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid163/p7bfddda662a7488ff9047574334b6702/f4a10c56.jpg

[Michael s/v Sannyasin]

Thanks Thad, I was wondering if such a metric existed. I'll measure that off sometime and see where it leads.

Bob, that's a great idea to look up the Eric, and yes, I think the Eric was the 32... I think the Ingrid was larger? It is more lightly canvassed than I might like, though, what she could probably use more than anything is a genny or
overlapping jib. She develops impressive weather helm pretty quickly, so, I'm often reefing the main before doing anything else.

I think I'm envious of a classic gaff sloop that blew past me once not far from Sandy Hook. We were in a 32 foot catamaran and this gaff sloop raced by. She had a very high peaked main, no topmast or spreaders and a large masthead
overlapping jib. Fully powered up in about 25kts and just flying. So, that image has always stayed in my mind.

Beautiful boat Norm, OK, I won't give up on the topsails yet. I kind of like the idea of the masthead upper running backs, particularly if I can use the same tackle for both. A lever would be great (if not a bit dangerous) but right now, all I have is block and tackle running to the windward winch.

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

This thread, from the "Designs and Plans" section, is helpful. (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=2&t=003229&p=) i.e. it contains some free gratis advice from the top designer of gaff rigged boats today!

You'll notice Mr Burnett's remarks about the masthead being the best stayed point in the rig!

Certainly, my boat (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=2&t=001504&p=) has the shrouds led well aft, to form "swifters", and I think this is not uncommon for gaff rigged boats, but I agree with Bob Cleek that its really a "no backstay" problem.

I would not consider preventer backstays unless you really do plan to set a jib topsail, in which case you absolutely need them, but imho jib topsails are very disappointing sails.

I do use levers - replaced blocks. Levers far better in every respect.

[ 11-16-2005, 10:40 AM: Message edited by: Andrew Craig-Bennett ]

[TimothyB]

I like the westsail quite a bit.. have you considered gettng The Gaff Rig Handbook?

[ 11-16-2005, 12:46 PM: Message edited by: TimothyB ]

[Michael s/v Sannyasin]

Thanks Andrew, that certainly gave me a lot of information to digest.

Plus, it introduced me to Mr. Burnett, which, I'm sure, will be a terrific help.

Some things I've gotten out of reading the various threads, looking at the sail plans for your boat and others on Ed's website...

I do believe that my chainplates are not positioned where many gaff sail plans would have them. That might be cause enough to hire someone like Burnett's yacht design for a consultation.

Some forward bend, particularly at the topmast is expected and not necessarily of great concern. Though my topmast is definitly not the best stayed point in the rig.

Many others share my point of view that the topsails may not be worth the extra weight, windage, hardware they require, and that there maybe be other options for light air sails.

So, the good news is that I'm less worried that I'm due for a catastrophic failure any time soon, but more convinced that I should make some rigging changes... and at the very least, perhaps, should install some levers instead of the block and tackle on the runners.

As for the other comment, thanks, yes, I actually have two copies of the Gaff Rigg Handbook, an older edition that the boat's original owner gave me (complete with highlighted sections where he based his design decisions on sections from the book). A new edition that I bought along with Hand Reef and Steer. I confess to reading them both when I had only had the boat a short while, so, much of it might have gone over my head. Time for another read, I think!

[Thad]

There is lots to say FOR topsails. Manys the times the breeze is light but stronger 30 feet up. Using the gaff to sheet a topsail can be a great lift. There have been a number of threads on the WBF concerning topsails. Since you have the topmast you should want to set it up so you can use it. The topmast may look nice (nicer without the foreward bend), but carrying the topsail it will REALLY look good, and you will notice what it does for you. You will also have the fun of setting and striking it. My gear for carrying the topsail on SEA HARMONY amounts to a shiv in the masthead,a light block at the throat, one at the end of the gaff and two light lines, a halyard over the shiv and a sheet through the blocks. Tophamper freom this gear is insignificant. The pleasure and effectiveness in use is great.

[John B]

whats a shiv Thad? ( I've only ever heard that as another name for a knife)

looking at this photo, which looks very much like the main is not reefed
http://www.greatsoftware.net/sailing/sannyasin1s.jpg
you could lose the topmast and jib topsail and easily exchange them for a yard topsail.
I still don't think there's anything wrong with your fore and aft lowers staying base.
If you do change to levers, its possible to set them up so that you don't have to cast them off for the run( thats how they're normally set up).

[ 11-16-2005, 08:42 PM: Message edited by: John B ]

[Thad]

I meant a pulley wheel, sheave.

[ 11-17-2005, 08:23 AM: Message edited by: Thad ]

[Michael s/v Sannyasin]

Thad, I'm curious about your setup. I have a small block at the top of my topmast through which the halyard runs, I have a cheekblock at the end of my gaff for the sheet/outhaul for the topsail -- the sheet then runs forward along the gaff to a jewel block that attaches near the throat then down to the base of the mast... so far, sounds like what you describe.

But, the thing I don't have rigged at the moment is the line that is supposed to be spliced around the topmast that I hank the luff of the topsail to. Wasn't sure in your description what you hank the luff of your topsail to... or do you?

The gear/windage that I was talking about that I could get rid of, if I removed the topmast, is the topmast itself, the two lateral stays attached, the jib topsail stay, the luff line and sheet for the topsail and the halyards for the jib topsail, and the topsail. The halyards alone account for a lot of windage, as you have 4 lengths of three-strand line running to the top of the topmast. So, doing away with that appeals to me.

But, I really should trot the sails out and try them before I decide ;) And, they would look great... though, my boat's original owner called them "picture" sails... sails you only trot out long enough for some photographs then you put them away again ;)

John, correct, that photos shows the main fully raised.

[PVanderwaart]

Someplace in Phillip Bolger's writings, he mentions the phenomenon of a gaff mast being bent forward that way. Perhaps it's in his "103 Small Boat Rigs." He cautions that it's drawn straight, but the sailmaker needs to anticipate the bend.

[martin schulz]

Preventer!

[Thad]

You would lose some windage without the topmast. My topsail is laced to yard and club (jackyard). With a pole mast I wanted the topsail head above the mast. Using the topsail halyard hitch to the yard and club I can hoist the sail high or low depending on conditions. Looking in GAFF RIG at Gaff Topsails I see a number of ways to handle the luff. You refer to a line spliced to the topmast, I see this as the "leader" Leather shows in fig. 47. I would think that would need parrel beads on the splice to be sure it rode easily up and down the mast. With hoops or lacing to the topmast you need a fancy brailing system or crew to climb aloft to stow the sail st the masthead so we will not do that on these boats. In fig 48 he shows a luff hanked to the halyard. Simplest is just downhauling for luff tension although if your sail is cutaway around the masthead a leader or halyard system will be needed to tension the luff along the topmast.

[Michael s/v Sannyasin]

Thad,

Yep, I don't have the book in front of me, but what you're describing on P47 with the leader is, I'm fairly certain, the setup that the original owner went for...

I remember reading about hanking to the halyard and thinking that might be an interesting option... maybe I can try that until I splice the leader up. However, I think he says that you wont get the luff as close to the topmast with the halyard option. The hoop option is really out of the question :)

Never thought of the parrel beads, but that might be a good idea!

I'm pretty clueless about how topsail yards and clubs work, so, having a hard time visualizing it... but, a few minutes with Gaff Rigg Handbook might help

[John B]

This is the Carrs system for a jackyard topsail as described in a W.B article. I copied it.
Works very well.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid136/p824707668e8ba0ef3e30f784a31bd088/f7549154.jpg

[Thad]

That's pretty much how mine works except that the club/jackyard is longer (much). The yard wants to be hauled tight to the masthead as shown the downhaul set tight and the sheet needs to outhaul the foot. With your topmast I think you will do well with your loose arrangement (no yards). Especially with yards it is important to have downhauls at all points that might hang up in striking. You don't want the thing stuck up there when you need to have it down.

[John B]

yeah... you set a topsail flat. when I say flat I mean flat flat flat.and then you tighten it up so it goes a bit flatter. ;)
you can crack off the sheet for some draft on a reach/run.

[seo]

One good reason to keep the topmast is that it looks good. Bald-headed sloops (and schooners) look, well, bald.
Most boats spend most of their time with their sails furled, so the fact that the topmast isn't rigged doesn't make any esthetic difference most of the time.
It's an excellent point that topsails are a cheap way to get extra sail area up high, and on a full-bodied boat like the Westsail they need all they can get.
And, when the topsail and jib top is set, it looks good. Genuine "Yargh me hearty!" good looking. It's also good for business. A few years ago I was working as a relief captain on one of the Camden (Maine) cruise schooners. We had just left Camden, and the wind was light.so I was having an easy day of it figuring out what she'd do (and wouldn't do.)
The Mate came back and asked if I wanted him to set the topsails (This vessel had a JT, fore, and maintopsail.) I said no, that was okay, we were doing fine under the four lowers. The Mate diplomatically persisted, until finally I asked him why he wanted to go through all the work of setting the topsails.
"The owner always sets them when we leave Camden," he said.
"Why?" I asked.
"Someone might take our picture," he answered.
This is a good answer. Looking pretty is good advertising. Setting topsails is good exercise.
On the other hand, I think it was common practice to send the topmasts down in the winter and when going offshore when gales might be expected.

seo

[martin schulz]

Still far from perfect (too small, angle not right), but I am posting this, because John's explanations helped me a lot with this (thanks John!).

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid85/pbf5f880910cd548d9bcb74e9ada74949/fac6cf85.jpg

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Disagree, Martin.

I would say that looks very good indeed.

[martin schulz]

...you are very kind Andrew!

Politness up to self-denial, that's what I always admire in you Britons (I always feel like a clumsy brute when in the UK).

[Michael s/v Sannyasin]

gorgeous Martin!

Say, if I went with a jackyard topsail, could I get rid of my topmast? I'd have the pulley for the topsail yard at the masthead?

[Thad]

Looks to me like your mast height is plenty to hoist a jackyard topsail. My topsail is also a little narrow and long, like Martin's, but that allows me to hoist it low so the yard and club are only a little beyond the mast and gaff, or high with the yard four feet above the mast head. Maybe a mistake in the layout, but a pleasant mistake.

[Don Kurylko]

A couple of comments:

If you are experiencing weather helm when it pipes up, then you should definitely consider a longer bowsprit. The one shown in the photos is pretty stubby. See “Eric” or “Dragon” for a comparison. Both these boats are the older sisters of the Westsail and would be worth some close study, particularly Dragon’s rig. I think these designs can both be found in John Leather’s book on Colin Archer, and In William Atkins “Of Yachts and Men” (though this one is out of print).

The main topsail in the photo of your boat looks to be too large for the area it has to fill – the clew is sheeted right out to the end of the gaff and it looks like it needs to be sheeted in even more. What John B said above: “yeah... you set a topsail flat. When I say flat I mean flat flat flat.and then you tighten it up so it goes a bit flatter”. That could be the reason the previous owner didn’t like the topsail. He probably couldn’t get it to set worth a dam hard on the wind.

Read the article in WB by the Carrs on topsails. You will see them in a new light, guaranteed!

Martin: Nice boat! How about more details and pictures? Can’t get enough of those gaffers, you know!

[martin schulz]

Originally posted by Don Kurylko:

Martin: Nice boat! How about more details and pictures? Can’t get enough of those gaffers, you know!Hmm - just one (don't want to occupy the thread with pics of my boat).

http://forum.yacht.de/attachment.php?attachmentid=821&stc=1

This picture was taken 2 weeks ago (I switched to this light danish blue, after a very hot summer, when the seams opened)

[ 11-21-2005, 04:15 AM: Message edited by: martin schulz ]

[Michael s/v Sannyasin]

Beautiful! By all means, post as many as you like. :)

[MAGIC's Craig]

Bill Garden suggested a way to help tension the topsail downhaul and also keep the topsail luff closer to the mast without having to deal with a leader. We used this system on our 28' gaff-rigged BCC. The topsail downhaul was brought down the starboard side of the main and around the forward side of the mast to padeye or sway hook on deck just to port of the mast. Then the tail was led back to a cringle spliced into the standing part of the downhaul a bit above eye height & threaded through (giving a 3:1 purchase) and the lot was swigged tight. If the luff blew aft, it was probably time to bring the critter down anyway.

Different ships...

Cheers,

Craig Johnsen

[John B]

She's looking good Martin ,and its topical to this thread and that forward mast bend we've been talking about.
I hope you don't mind me pointing out that your headstay is tight and jib luff is sagging away a bit. This is the normal gaff problem and issue. My point is that the agressive static tension on Michaels forestay is to try and alleviate this sag , and by doing that, improve windward performance.
I try to trim my jib halyard so that the headstay and the jib luff are similar in tension.Its a difficult thing because of stretch in the halyard and the sail luff but its something I try and monitor. With our rigs Martin, the headstay is a redundant part thats there to provide rig security( and a place for a light weather sail ;) ) but you can also use it as a kind of indicator guage for your halyard trim. ;)

[John B]

thats a good one Craig!
I used to lead the topsail tack line around the mast like that but the problem was that on a reach( same side as the tack/downhaul) the foot would ease and I'd get a horrible shape. I have a photo of that somewhere .. I'll look for it.
That Garden method would stop that by centralising the tack line!.

here tis.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid30/pc55e607693be783c59f8b35b1e4b6d16/fd52a4ed.jpg
You can see my topsail trim being affected by the fact we were on starboard( edit redface.gif ) and slightly eased( the tack line taken around the front of the mast from the port side, we set the topsail to port) If I'd known or thought of the Garden trick I would have had a much better set through the foot.
since then, I re trimmed the jackyard and have a small winch dedicated for the tack

[ 11-21-2005, 06:52 PM: Message edited by: John B ]

[Michael s/v Sannyasin]

great... now I have topsail envy after looking at everyone's photos...

John, in the original photos of the rig at the top, showing slight bowing at the top of the mast, that's with very loose tension on the headstay and forestay, and only mild tension on the inner forestay (staysail stay). If I put much of any static tension on the other two, I get pretty pronounced bow :) Which was part of the problem.

However, I'll try hardening up the jib halyard more (if it does, indeed have a wire luff) and see if that helps it set better.

Actually, the sail that has the biggest problem with a loose luff is the staysail.

Interesting thought that the topsail I have is too large... now that I look at it, I think they are absolutely correct about that.

One question about bringing the downhaul around the front of the mast, don't you get chaffe from the line on the mast? I already have problems keeping varnish on the thing as it is!

I appreciate all the info this topic has generated... I'm learning quite a bit, thanks!

[John B]

I don't think its the jib halyard in your case.. Thats more directed at Martin or myself, where our jibs are seperated from the stay.
Little or no tension headstay forestay? It sounds as the mast has settled into its own shape in that case, but as we discussed before ... nothing really wrong with that. If its come back into column when you're sailing because of the thrust off the gaff then its all good.Perhaps... just perhaps ,your forward lowers are a bit tight and are inducing that prebend?.
Chafe? probably. Not something that would worry me ... I think it would just carry on the hoops,but if you were making long passages offshore then you'd need to stop that.After all,chafe is the enemy of the sailor man .

[ 11-21-2005, 07:03 PM: Message edited by: John B ]

[martin schulz]

Originally posted by John B:

I hope you don't mind me pointing out that your headstay is tight and jib luff is sagging away a bit. This is the normal gaff problem and issue.Hmm - I think the main reason for the sagging jib is that the jib-halyard is fastened to belying pin rails on the shrouds. Now since I have rope-shrouds with a bit more distension than a wire arrangement the jib-halyard is either stiff or a bit loose, depending on whether I am on the starbord or port side.

I could fix a belaying pin rail on deck, at the mast, but that would definetely look crappy. Perhaps I will change to wire-shrouds someday, but those rope-shrouds work fine.

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

We have pin rails on deck.

http://www.woodenboatrescue.org/image.php?Id=499

Now, the chain plates pass over chain wales to keep the deadeyes clear of the bulwark rail, which means that we have room to have a pin rail just inside the rail.

It's just a galvanised iron rod bent into shape with swellings where the iron pins pass through it.

I definitely don't like belaying anything in the shrouds, except the topping lift.

[ 11-22-2005, 12:17 PM: Message edited by: Andrew Craig-Bennett ]

[John B]

she just looks so sweet in that photo Andrew.

" Look, I'm ready to go"

[ 11-22-2005, 02:33 PM: Message edited by: John B ]

[martin schulz]

Yes, she certainly is a beauty Andrew.

It's in fact the first picture of the "famous" MIRELLE I see.

I would also like to fix a pin-rail at the shrouds in front of the bulwark rail, but my rail is just a toe-rail :confused:

[ 11-23-2005, 08:24 AM: Message edited by: martin schulz ]

[Russ Manheimer]

Andrew,

Thanks for finally showing a picture of Mirelle. She is just stunning and appears to be the perfect example of a late Edwardian Yacht. Although I recall she may have been built later than that, in the 20's? Timeless beauty in any event.

Could you give us some more deatails about her designer and background. Any pictures of that dainty counter stern?

Russ

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Thanks are due to Bruce (OEX) for posting and hosting the photo for me.

She was out of date when she was built; she is younger than "Dorade", "Stormy Weather", "Bloodhound", "Maid of Malham" and contemporary with "Ranger",,having been launched on the 8th August 1937.

The really weird bit is that she is a sort of copy of W.A. Robinson's "Svaap", so we have an English counter sterned gaff cutter that is a copy of an Alden designed transom sterned Bermuda ketch!

Designed by William Maxwell Blake, built by Claude Whisstock, teak on English oak grown frames and Canadian rock elm bent frames, teak centreline structure, teak decks and coamings, copper fastened, iron ballast keel and iron floors and hanging knees.

She was a wedding present for her first owner, Philip Allen, who was 27 years old at the time. I have a photo showning Mrs Allen in the act of smashing the champagne bottle on the bow.

The original design was drawn by Philip as an entry in a "Yachting Monthly" design competition, intended as an ocean cruiser. He won second prize. He based his design on "Svaap", as he told me.

When the opportunity came to build the boat he sent the drawings to WM Blake, who was to English working boats what Howard Chappelle was to American working boats (and we have the workd of Chappelle himself for that!)

Blake re-drew the design, changing it from ketch to cutter, and rounding up the forefoot, in accordance with the metacentric shelf theory, which was then topical, to aid self steering.

She was intended for a voyage to the West Indies but WW2 interfered. After the war Philip decided that he wanted a bigger boat and built the 26 ton gaff cutter "Corista", which looked a little like a butch version of "Dyarchy", and was ultimately lost by fire in Canada under new ownership.

Philip went on to design the Bermuda yawl "Tallulah" and to cross the Atlantic 26 times. In fact he wrote the book - the RCC Atlantic Crossing Guide.

Philip sold her to Francis Manfield who had previously owned a motor boat and who learned to sail in her !

I bought her from Francis in 1984.

[ 11-23-2005, 11:39 AM: Message edited by: Andrew Craig-Bennett ]

[John B]

I still have her sailplan on an album... I'll look for it.
found it.. not so hard, I forgot I reorganised . :rolleyes:
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid15/p682f7391c2f04df80965a13cefcf720a/fde6594f.jpg

[ 11-23-2005, 03:24 PM: Message edited by: John B ]