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KAIROS
09-04-2007, 06:26 PM
A few months ago as we began restoring our sailboat, I joined the forum and asked for lots of advise. I've been involved with wooden boats most of my life, but had spent a couple of decades in front of a computer and lost track of the nitty gritty of it.

Thanks to you and this restoration, I have been largely restored too. We still have the engine and interior to do this winter.

Here's a link for your perusal:

http://www.yachtflyers.com/ABLE/

Enjoy.

Thorne
09-04-2007, 06:49 PM
Wow! What a lot of work on a very lovely boat.

PaulC
09-04-2007, 07:16 PM
I agree, WOW!

PAJ
09-04-2007, 07:30 PM
that's a beautiful boat, with an excellent restoration in progress. You really masked each individual deck plank - incredible!

boatbear
09-04-2007, 08:31 PM
Beautiful boat, great restoration and excellent documentation of progress. Lots of additional superlatives.
Charlie

KAIROS
09-05-2007, 10:13 AM
I suppose part of the reason for posting photo galleries of the ongoing restoration is to seek encouragement, but the main reason is to share the experience and to give back some of what we borrowed from the forum.

As we do each task, we generally start at the transom on the port side of the boat and go clockwise. By the time we get done, we know what we are doing, more or less, but we have run out of boat to work on. We did do some testing of methods and materials back in the shop, often based on what we learned here, but there's still that big learning curve on the boat.

The result may be that while sitting in the cockpit while sailing, we will be able to see our mistakes on the port side, and our best work to starboard.

snaiken
09-05-2007, 11:16 AM
Great looking boat! What did you use to glue in the bungs on the deck?

manos
09-05-2007, 01:51 PM
very good job!!!
beautifull boat
beautifull work
but the most encouraging is to have nice people next to you!
keep posting pics.

KAIROS
09-05-2007, 03:07 PM
.....What did you use to glue in the bungs on the deck?

We used System Three epoxy mixed 50% with graphite powder. The powder helps the epoxy stand up to UV radiation, and adds the dark grey color to the fine glue line around each bung. It should look right when the deck weathers back to gray. This mixture also sanded easily.

Why epoxy? We had several options, including varnish, but we were accomplishing something else too with the epoxy. The main reason for rebunging was that many of the bungs were wafer thin and popping out.

At first (bought the boat last year) we assumed the teak had worn down a lot. We bored through the deck in a few spots from above and below to evaluate the condition of the Brunzeel plywood subdeck and the thickness of the overlying teak planks. The plywood was in excellent shape, and the deck was only about 1/16 thinner than when laid 25 years ago....still 7/16 thick. So, the problem appeared to be that the screws had been countersunk barely enough when new.

So, we removed some bungs and attempted to remove screws so that we could then countersink them deeper. The screws had been installed when the teak was glued down, of course, and no amount of screw whispering would budge them. They'd break off below the shank near the glue.

As I contemplated various schemes to apply to each of the more than 1000 bungs, I happened to use a screw extractor on a different part of the boat. This is a tiny hole saw. I had a 3/8 one and a 1/4 one. I noticed that the smaller slipped exactly inside the larger. So, I super-glued the smaller one inside, and set it back from the business end of that larger one.

Using a piece of lexan with 3/8 holes bored, for a guide (start gently so the hole saw will not walk), I drilled around the existing 1/4 bungs. The 3/8 extracter cut a perfect round hole to begin with. Then as my custom bit went a little deeper the 1/4 extracter began first grinding up the existing 1/4 diameter bung, and then the screw head itself.

The result was a nice 3/8 diameter hole, 1/4 deep, with the screw shank sticking up in the middle. We used a punch to drive the screw shank deeper and peen the head somewhat.

Soooo, the epoxy was chosen since it, when added to the hole below the new bung, formed a new head for the screw. Since the teak was thoroughly glued down the screws seemed unnecessary, but peening them over while driving them down seemed better than just grinding them down. In the end, we were able to have nearly 1/4 deep bungs in all holes.

The screws were small, and damage to the deck beams (from pounding the screws down somewhat) appears to be a non-issue. Her beams are elm though, and the sound resonating throughout the shipyard was nearly sickening. It hurt us more than her though, and her newly bunged and caulked deck is tight and a pleasure to walk on again.

We used epoxy, and that's why.

Yeadon
09-05-2007, 03:19 PM
Able is a nice name.

snaiken
09-05-2007, 04:55 PM
Thanks for the response on the glue used on the bungs. It looked dark to me and that's why I asked. I need to put in some bungs myself and wasn't sure what the best stuff to use was. I see your method is somewhat special to what you're doing. Great project and thanks for documenting it. It's a real help to those of us that get all of our wood boat info off this sight.

boatbear
09-05-2007, 05:18 PM
A neat inventive approach to the bung issue. I like that kind of stuff. I can also relate to the endless rotation around the boat (how many kilometres / miles do we do on a boat project?) In my case I went counterclockwise starting from the aft starboard side, closest to the moaning chair.
Charlie

djn
09-05-2007, 06:49 PM
Great job and a real inspiration. That bottom job is what we have planned for our boat this winter and it helped build my confidence to see the progression. Cheers. P.S., I am saving the deck and mast job for the winter after next.

LifeCoach
09-05-2007, 08:34 PM
Beatiful boat and a great job showing the process. I have been trying to decide if I can tackle a restoration of my 41 ft yawl. After reading notes and seeing your pic's I'm thinking maybe Ishould do it.
Thanks for sharing.
LifeCoach-Nashua, NH

LifeCoach
09-05-2007, 08:39 PM
Beatiful boat and a great job showing the process. I have been trying to decide if I can tackle a restoration of my 41 ft yawl. After reading notes and seeing your pic's I'm thinking maybe Ishould do it.
Thanks for sharing.
LifeCoach-Nashua, NH

Peter Malcolm Jardine
09-05-2007, 08:59 PM
There is a purity to working with wood, and a further spiritual aspect to dealing with wood that has been made into something with a living soul.... keeps me sane, and god knows the voices would have it otherwise some of the time..:)

KAIROS
09-06-2007, 04:42 PM
There is a purity to working with wood, and a further spiritual aspect to dealing with wood that has been made into something with a living soul....

I agree of course. I have always been stricken with wood boats and will probably not have a boat made from another material. But I also realize that most of the materials I have used in this ongoing restoration have been known to cause cancer in lab rats.

I could have stuck with totally traditional materials, but some of those have already been outlawed. Nearly every substance used is hazardous to health. An interesting paradox since in general I think of wood boats as pure and simple and spiritual, and more environmentally friendly.

Maybe the employees of a fiberglass boat factory might be poisoned, while the boat owners may not be. When I see them waxing their hull I think of how little risk there is in using wax. Maintaining a wood boat is a constant source of exposure for boat owners/maintainers/restorers. And, it is more challenging for individuals to keep the toxic materials out of the environment than to treat waste coming from a plastic boat factory.

Saying this seems a sacrilege here. It is not a condemnation though. I love wood boats. I'm just pointing out this apparent paradox. Paint me with red lead when I go, to keep the rot at bay.....

Nanoose
09-07-2007, 01:01 PM
Wondering about the chemical stripping of the old finishes.

Could sanding have worked instead?

KAIROS
09-07-2007, 01:27 PM
Wondering about the chemical stripping of the old finishes.

Could sanding have worked instead?

We tested many strippers throughout the project......jasco, star 10, dads, etc. etc. etc. These ones with methalene chloride, which eats your brain fast, worked quickly and worked pretty well.

However, for almost all finishes the water-based Citris Strip (orange color) worked best. It is a gel which does not evaporate fast....so you can leave it on for many hours and let it work. We generally put it on thick and left it on for up to 12 hours.

Citrus Strip did not work well on the bottom paint. We used Peel Away Marine stripper. It is a water-based environmentally friendly stripper like Citris Strip. It did not work quite as easily as the company implies, but it did keep the paint out of our lungs and out of the air. We used 2 of the 5 gallon kits in 2 applications. It is key to leave it on for at least 24 hours for thick paint.

We were concerned that Peel Away would eat the entire boat. We had visions of returning to the shipyard to find our boat as a glob of stuff on the ground. We tested it though, and afterward it appeared it did not harm bungs, glue (the hull is glued wedge seam), etc.

It was a nasty mess, but apparently a more environmentally and healthy alternative to sanding or a heat gun, or even scraping.

djn
09-07-2007, 01:34 PM
Hi Kairos, the PO of my boat coated the hull with West System epoxi befor painting it. It did not use glass cloth, just the epoxi. Will any of those products strip epoxi? Cheers.

KAIROS
09-07-2007, 01:58 PM
Hi Kairos, the PO of my boat coated the hull with West System epoxi befor painting it. It did not use glass cloth, just the epoxi. Will any of those products strip epoxi? Cheers.

We did not find one that ate epoxy. There are some industrial type strippers that are used to remove old finishes and rug glue from concrete floors.....citris water-based stuff. I'd worry about putting such stuff on a wood hull though. I'd do a thorough test.

Here is an old thread.....the heat gun works, but bad stuff to breath. Use new organic vapor filters in a good respirator or better yet have someone you don't like do it.

http://www.woodenboatvb.com/vbulletin/upload/archive/index.php/t-3331.html

KAIROS
09-07-2007, 02:50 PM
We did not find one that ate epoxy....

Forgot to mention that our spruce boom had been epoxied (probably cpes) under varnish. None of the off-the-shelf strippers, nor the citrus strip, touched it.

rufustr
09-08-2007, 12:24 AM
Thanks for documenting your work, and for posting it here for all to see.
Inspirational stuff.

Concordia...41
09-08-2007, 06:57 AM
A few months ago...we began restoring our sailboat

Ye gads man! That's years of work. And it's done well, with proper research, and well documented to boot.

To quote Dingo, I'm gobsmacked! (Which I hope is Australian for 'so impressed I'm speechless' :D)

- M

P.S. I won't be around today, I'm going to the warehouse to ask Sarah why it's taken us 7 years.... :(

KAIROS
09-14-2007, 03:32 PM
.....I'm going to the warehouse to ask Sarah why it's taken us 7 years.... :(

At 10,000 lbs., ABLE is a far smaller project than Sarah. Every little project on Sarah is much larger and more complex. I worked on my Dad's boat for years, a 35-foot ketch, and that was intense enough. In selecting my own project boat I was careful to get one just big enough for our sailing purposes and abilities.

The managing of the project is definitely more challenging than doing the work. The research, making decisions, trying to do the right thing, getting materials and labor synchronized.....madness. It makes you long for days of doing something physical like sanding or scraping.

I am sure I could not sustain this level of effort for more than a year. 7 years is unimaginable to me. Also though, we are not doing a true restoration. Our boat class, though a few were built by a renowned builder, is not historically significant like Sarah is.

ABLE is just a good boat. I have no problem with deviating somewhat from the original if it makes her a better boat for us. Her cockpit was built for wee Scottish folk apparently with the idea that it was sinful to be comfortable under sail. When we found that a previous owner's modification had gone to rot, I gleefully began sketching a new cockpit.

We'll be sailing in the spring, easily, unless some catastrophy happens. Lots of small (er) jobs now. Installing the new deck fittings, rebuilding/reconfiguring the cockpit, new tanks, reassembling the rig and spar fittings, some engine refurbishing.

For us, regular maintenance is fine and even therapeudic. This restoration project is a means to an end. It's more of a project than envisioned, but we feel it really helps us understand the boat too. We can't wait to hoist our new mainsail and cast off from the mooring in April. Maybe we need a forum category about sailing wood boats....the normal end, I hope.

KAIROS
09-16-2007, 03:59 AM
....madness.

I don't mean troubling. I mean madness.

KAIROS
11-14-2009, 03:49 AM
We'll be sailing [2008] in the spring, easily...

Was that me that said that. How embarassing. We barely got sailing in the fall of 2009, and we still have lots to do in the interior. Good thing I didn't know, in 2007, what I had gotten into!

KAIROS
11-14-2009, 03:56 AM
Will any of those products strip epoxi? Cheers.

Experience now says that JABSCO brand has a stripper that works on epoxy. It says so on the can, and it actually does work. Some other brands might work too.

TimH
11-14-2009, 12:48 PM
The link is broken.

Candyfloss
11-14-2009, 02:01 PM
For me too.

KAIROS
11-14-2009, 03:57 PM
The link is broken.

fixed. Thanks.

TimH
11-14-2009, 08:57 PM
Nice.

Whats that ketch you have for your avatar?

David G
11-14-2009, 09:39 PM
What a lovely project, and what a gorgeous outcome!

KAIROS
11-15-2009, 02:49 AM
.....Whats that ketch you have for your avatar?

That is the sailboat that got me here, to this disreputable Forum :D. It was the boat that permeated my youth. The thought of her makes me short of breath. Amazing what a boat can do. Long gone too...like a romance, and as romance is, so easy to conjure.

It was a Ralph Winslow designed ketch built by Harvey Gamage in Maine. Winslow worked with Alden, and her profile/sailplan shows Alden's influence. But, her lines are distinctly Winslow's. She was very stout and able.....probably built a bit too tough and course to be a real work of art. She was though. Both tough and a work of art. Fondest memories. Here she is:

http://www.yachtflyers.com/forum_images/sea_belle.jpg

TimH
11-15-2009, 02:56 AM
Winslow was an artist.

The boat that led me to being here sits alone and neglected, Her restoration ended when her owner died 20 years ago. She is a staysail schooner. 45'.

KAIROS
11-16-2009, 06:13 PM
Winslow was an artist.

The boat that led me to being here sits alone and neglected, Her restoration ended when her owner died 20 years ago. She is a staysail schooner. 45'.

I'll start a new thread sometime with that Winslow/Gamage ketch's story (what I know of it). I expect it will bring out lots of discussion about the circumstances leading to the death (murder?) of a wood boat. It might be too painful though, for me and everyone revisiting their own version of the tragedy.

I'll update my restoration thread here whenever there's something significant to tell about. Nothing sad about this restoration. ABLE is sailing and likely will be for decades more. I also add stuff to ABLE's website occassionally (http://www.yachtflyers.com/ABLE/).

Heave ho.

BBSebens
11-17-2009, 12:13 PM
It was a Ralph Winslow designed ketch built by Harvey Gamage in Maine. Winslow worked with Alden, and her profile/sailplan shows Alden's influence. But, her lines are distinctly Winslow's. She was very stout and able.....probably built a bit too tough and course to be a real work of art. She was though. Both tough and a work of art. Fondest memories. Here she is:

http://www.yachtflyers.com/forum_images/sea_belle.jpg


This is beautiful. Beautiful like a nice old truck. I bet she was a joy to sail. maybe not really fast, but you knew you were going to get there. besides, if you were in a hurry, you wouldn't have a sailboat.

starlightventure
12-22-2009, 05:11 AM
I have an old 38 foot yawl. I have to redue about 150 one inch diameter bungs. I have heard of 5 dgree constant taper bungs. I have ordered and thrown away one inch straight bungs because the old holes are .025 over one inch and the new ones where to small, a slopy loose fit. I am wondering where I can get the constant taper 5 degree bungs.

KAIROS
12-22-2009, 03:44 PM
.... I am wondering where I can get the constant taper 5 degree bungs.

Don't know. You can probably find more pertinent threads using the 'search' function at the top of the page. Try something like 'tapered bungs', maybe. I expect it would be easier to get the correct cutter and make your own.

Thad
12-22-2009, 04:17 PM
You might have to call the people at Fuller and ask them to machine such a cutter for you. Order two. They make tapered plugs in smaller sizes that taper from size to .010 over. They will know what you are talking about at least and probably can do it.