Planing figured woods

[guillemot]

This is not specifically boat related, but rather is a general woodworking question. I picked up these four highly figured cherry boards today from a mill in southern Michigan:

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid195/pa99c6de4f6cda1472a7969349b0163ab/f159a991.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid195/pf092a0765d98b4dc6be1aa5e23b2bd13/f159a9cb.jpg

They are each 10' long, 12" wide, and 1 to 1 1/4" thick rough sawn. I haven't ever worked with figured lumber, and I'm fearful of destroying my new treasures with my planer. Do any of you have suggestions for preventing tearout while planing? I have a Dewalt 13" planer if that is of concern to any.

Suggestions for what to turn these into are welcome too! I was thinking about a new dining room table, though these might make an awful thin tabletop.

Thanks for your suggestions.

[ishmael]

Um, really sharp tools and small passes. Hand tools too. Another route is a local shop that has a big surfacing sander. That's what we ended up with dealing with such figure.

Take your time, think on it. Beautiful stuff! With a sharp edge it will be a light.

Why do trees grow that way sometimes?

[Hughman]

Very pretty. These want to be furniture, like a highboy, or a headboard. smile.gif

Figured wood needs very sharp tools, mentioned above. Scrapers, low angle planes tuned properly.

[kc8pql]

Sharp planer knives, shallow cuts and cut with the grain as much as possable. Rough cutting your parts to something a bit over finished dimensions before planing, rather than planing the whole plank first makes it easier to have the grain running in the same direction on each piece. Usually gives better results on a small planer too.

[Kim Whitmyre]

If you use a power planer or jointer, I've heard that setting up a fence that allows you to skew plane/joint will reduce the chances of tear-out.

[Doug Wood]

If your Dewalt's blades are sharp, you won't have any problems surfacing these boards. As mentioned previously, take small bites. You should face joint these first though before you hit the planer and more importantly, these lovely boards should acclimate to your environment for a couple of weeks before you begin to work them.

[Harry Miller]

If you're going to finish them with a hand plane you'll want a high angle. With a bevel up plane you just make the bevel steeper. With a bench plane you can try a back bevel or a plane with a steeper frog. web page (http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=52414&cat=1,41182,52515)
http://www.leevalley.com/images/item/woodworking/planes/05p3701s1.jpg

P.S. I'm not suggesting you buy this plane. Its price is steeper than its bevel.

[Bob Smalser]

Dampen them before those small passes on your fresh planer blades.

Even then, plan on spending some time with the belt sander and 80 grit removing any chipping.

I made a 50-degree plane specifically for figured maple, but it's really a tossup whether it or the belt sander makes the job any easier.

http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/3955069/50554493.jpg

Use a sharp card scraper to finish.

[ 11-22-2005, 10:17 PM: Message edited by: Bob Smalser ]

[JMAC]

DON"T TRY TO PLANE THEM. Figured Cherry is highly toxic, deadly in fact. Luckily, I'm immune. I will take them off your hands, no charge to you. You'll pay shipping of course. Thank your stars I warned you in time.

[ishmael]

I'm seeing a chest of drawers, with the best of that figure as drawer fronts. Maybe a well drawn top. It's striking material has fallen into your hands. Think on it, it deserves your best. If you aren't up to it now, set it aside for a bit. Those sort of cherry boards aren't run of the mill.

[ 11-22-2005, 09:55 PM: Message edited by: ishmael ]

[pcford]

Nice bunch of sticks. Do not plane the wood.

Run it through a wide belt sander. They are like a planer but use sanding belts instead. Any large city will have a millworks to do this. Any good cabinet shop should have one as well.

[emichaels]

Go to Fine Woodworking magazines website and do an article search then order the back issue if you don't subscribe. There have been numerous articles covering your question. Though I must say that running highly figured boards thru power tools rarely produces results worthy of the rare find you have in hand. Use very sharp hand tools to surface the finished product. Use the power tools to get to within 1/32" to the finished dim you want on EACH side. For example if you want a finished dim of 3/4" stop power planing at 13/16". Sanders RUIN highly figured woods. Always use cabinet scrapers, etc for finishing figured wood. The results are not to be compared to powered methods. If you are not skilled at sharpening your planes and scrapers now is your opportunity to learn it. The number one skill in any woodworkers tool bag is the ability to sharped steel tools.

Looks like there is enough there for a really nice "fancy" shaker style blanket chest.

BOL

Eric

PS: If one comes across figured wood in the green state DO NOT run them thru a kiln. You will loose a great deal of the ability of the figure to reflect light when you are finishing the wood. All you have to see is an antique made of figured wood where the wood never saw a kiln or a power planer and you will know what I mean.

[ 11-22-2005, 10:16 PM: Message edited by: emichaels ]

[ishmael]

Hm. It looks already close, sawn at a nomimal inch?

Have to agree that an edge, planes and scrapers, are the way to go.

Gawd, a beautiful chest of drawers. Lucky bastard!

Don't misunderestimate it; do set it aside if you aren't quite ready.

[kc8pql]

Originally posted by emichaels:
If you are not skilled at sharpening your planes and scrapers now is your opportunity to learn it.But DON'T learn on this wood.
(I'm also sure you are more undecided about what to do now than you were before you asked!)

[Bob Smalser]

Amazingly, that sharp card scraper removes sanding marks just like it removes hand plane marks for a clean, crisp surface.

What it won't do is remove chips, and it's almost impossible to avoid some chipping whether you are using the best hand planes or the best power planes. God invented large thickness sanders exactly for that purpose.

So if you don't have anybody nearby with a thickness sander, then with some practice, you can be as precise with a light, 21" belt sander as you can with a #4 1/2.

If you do find a thickness sander, lay up your panels of the rough stock, first, to the limit of the sander's width. Will save a lot of work.

The Card Scraper:

http://www.woodenboat-ubb.co m/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=009193&p= (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=009193&p=)

[ 11-22-2005, 11:11 PM: Message edited by: Bob Smalser ]

[ishmael]

Distillation. If you need to thickness those boards, a sander. When you go to finish, a blade. A well-heeled scraper will light that curl up. If you sand it it will still be gorgeous, but not anything like the light possible.

And they really are special. In my lexicon I've seem some figured cherry. Those aren't high-hat gold, but they are worth holding dear. Pretty close to gold. Curly cherry is amazing stuff.

[ 11-23-2005, 07:00 AM: Message edited by: ishmael ]

[Zimmer]

What pcford said. the rest are dillatantes

[pcford]

What pcford said. the rest are dillatantesFinally somebody said something I can agree with.

Mr. Smalser made a good point that sanding scratches from a wide belt sander would be less than possible (better said likely) chip-out. For example, a board sanded with 120 grit will have scratches roughly 120th of an inch deep. Less than a 32nd, seems to me.

I am sure that scraping is best for the final prep on highly figured woods. Only rarely have I done that on boat planking stock. Furniture is a different matter.
And I've done mighty little furniture. Joiner work isn't furniture....more like marine cabinetry, I guess. (Shrug)

[ 11-22-2005, 11:57 PM: Message edited by: pcford ]

[Bob Smalser]

It's "dilettante", fellas, not "dillatant". ;)

[P.I. Stazzer-Newt]

Guillemot:
Do any of you have suggestions for preventing tearout while planing? I asked this question of the best Luthier I ever met.

He thought for a moment and said "Well - sideways with a low angle plane sometimes works".

Sounds easy - but the real meat of the reply was in the pause for thought, and in the word "sometimes".
Different answers for different jobs/men/timbers, Look, think and then cut.

I have found that: </font> Really sharp planes with very small mouths help. </font> Card scrapers are wonderful - Bob did an article on sharpening them. </font> You need to be prepared to make mistakes
"The man who never made a mistake never made anything". </font>

[guillemot]

Thanks all for your replies so far. Perhaps I will never use those boards. Seems I'm perfectly happy to just lay them out on the floor in the rough and stare at them... Might get old after a while though.

I have to run to work now, but will contemplate what was said here and get back on it this evening. Where can I find Bob's article on scrapers? I know that he is one to listen to from the photos he's posted.

I understand, Bob, that you have an article on chisels out somewhere. Happens that I don't have any bevel chisels in the sho and don't really know what I'm looking for - it has slowed my self-instruction in cutting dovetails. Where can I find the article? X-mas is coming, and I've been reasonably good this year. Maybe santa will bring me some chisels if I ask nicely. More later. Thanks again.

Cheers,
Jeff

edited: or maybe Santa will just send Bob to deliver them and show me how to use them properly...

[ 11-23-2005, 08:47 AM: Message edited by: guillemot ]

[LazyJack]

Remember Curly Cherry also converts well to BTUs...can be far more attractive this time of year than drawer fronts! Just make sure there isn't any paint or varnish on it before you put it in the stove. :D

[Tom Lathrop]

Planing with the grain is impossible with highly figured wood. It changes every half inch.

Low angle cutters are for end grain and soft wood. High angle is for hard and/or figured wood.

A power planer will be very risky on your beautiful cherry. If you do go that route, it will be worth the effort to grind a back bevel, or micro bevel, on the cutters to increase the cutting angle and make very shallow cuts. Same goes for jointing. This approximates the action of a scraper and is much less likely to tear the grain.

My bible for interaction between wood and tools is Hoadley's "Understanding Wood". Great reading for a winter evening and the chapter on machining wood covers this topic better than any other I'm aware of.

A sanding machine, like a power planer, is a thicknesser and can not level out a board like a jointer or hand plane can. Your job is a battle between conserving as much of the valuable wood as you can and making the job easier.

Probably none of us work enough in large planks of figured wood to know all the answers and you are right in that you will learn on the job. I recently built a coffee table from wide boards of highly figured maple and finished the top with hand plane and scraper (the kind with handles).

[ 11-23-2005, 09:23 AM: Message edited by: Tom Lathrop ]

[emichaels]

A wide belt sander wont ruin the boards if you stop 1/32 early and finish with hand tools. The reason I say don't bother with a WBS is that most people don't have one handy. You are still going to joint the boards on one face anyway to get flatness. Then you could run thru an available WBS. BEWARE A Wide Belt Sander DOES NOT FLATEN A BOARD.

Fine Woodworking #105 pp44-49 will tell you everything you need to know to work these boards.

If you want to know what causes different figures go to Understanding Wood, Hoadley pp. 21.

Eric

[ 11-23-2005, 10:15 AM: Message edited by: emichaels ]

[Mrleft8]

OK... My 2 cents. I've surfaced miles of figgured Cherry. It's not as difficult as figured Maple. Make sure your jointer and planer knives are sharp. That means you honed them with a hard oil stone when they came back from the grinder. Take light passes. Dampen (not soak) the surface lightly. You will need to go over them with a card scraper, and yes, a card scraper will take out divots left by grain tear out. After you scrape to get rid of all the planer marks (hold the scraper at an angle to the planer marks or you run the risk of "washboarding") you'll want to sand with 320 grit paper. A lot of work, but worth the effort. Now..... Finishing figured Cherry is a horse of a different color! ;)

[emichaels]

Just to clarify the adding moisture trick to this task. When using a hand plane one uses parafin wax on the sole, when power machining use water to lightly moisten the surface. As others have also suggested.

Eric

Bob Smalser, BTW. I read your recent article in FFW on chisels. I think that is one of the best articles on hand tools I have ever read.

[ 11-23-2005, 11:25 AM: Message edited by: emichaels ]

[Paul Girouard]

Originally posted by guillemot:
Thanks all for your replies so far. Perhaps I will never use those boards. Seems I'm perfectly happy to just lay them out on the floor in the rough and stare at them... Might get old after a while though.

"The man who never made a mistake never made anything". Credit to P.I. Stazzer-Newt
.
Member # 9695

posted 11-23-2005 05:51 AM And my Grandfather , he told me that many times , only other person , other than my Pepe', and myself that I've heard say that.

Jeff you've gotten some really good advice , All of what Lefty said except about finishing I'd just oil it with Maloof's Poly/oil. I really like how it looks and I find it easy to apply , that of cousre is JMHO. All the rest I'd totally agree with. I'd start each board into the planer at a slight angle, and remove them at a slight angle as well , cuts down on snipe IMO. at least on my planer.

I'd reccomend you cut your stock to a little over lenght as someone else posted and striagthen it first so your not loading up your planer with wood your be culling later.

I understand, Bob, that you have an article on chisels out somewhere. Where can I find the article?

http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/pages/fw_181_046.asp# This seems to be it .

X-mas is coming, and I've been reasonably good this year.

You must really have been good this year as you have told us this about this as well :rolleyes:

Keep the router/router table info coming, though. I've been good this year, and christmas is coming. Maybe Santa will bring me one...

edited: or maybe Santa will just send Bob to deliver them and show me how to use them properly...So how "good " have you been ? :eek:

I'll add more tomorrow , pictures of how I do what I do , my take on chisels, straight line ripping , scrapers , and sharpening. You can be the judge and see at least how I do some of it . The best teacher is doing , you can see something 100 times and still be in fear and trembling , do it your self a few times and the trembling can be controlled , not mastered but controlled , IMHO, Paul. PS Happy Thanksgiving smile.gif

[batory]

Scraping plane:

http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=1&p=48431&cat=1,41182,48945

[guillemot]

Hey, Paul. Maybe I haven't been that good! Don't tell my family, though. :D

You've suggested running the boards throught the planer at an angle. I see how this could be beneficial. Unfortunately, I don't think I'll be able to get much of an angle with a 13" planer and 12" boards.

Perhaps I should see if I have compiled the collected wisdom correctly:

1. Let boards acclimate to shop temp/humidity for a few weeks at least. Stacked and stickered, I presume.

2. Cut pieces for project a little heavy on length.

3. Run B-side through jointer with light passes. I'll have to see if I can find a larger jointer to use for this as mine is a wee 4" and underpowered at that.

4. Thickness sander or planer to +1/32nd inch of final desired thickness with light passes. Large panels should be glued up as much as possible before final thicknessing (if a large enough sander/planer is available).

5. Finish with high angle plane and cabinet scraper

Paul, I'll look for your photos tomorrow. Thanks to those who have offered to relieve me of this burden, but I can assue you all that my chimeny is clear and it's getting cold in Lansing - we'll be needing them to stay warm ourselves.

[Paul Girouard]

Originally posted by guillemot:
Hey, Paul. Maybe I haven't been that good! Don't tell my family, though. :D

Never!

You've suggested running the boards throught the planer at an angle. I see how this could be beneficial. Unfortunately, I don't think I'll be able to get much of an angle with a 13" planer and 12" boards.



< Each board should be strieghtline ripped first , a little over sized . This of course depends on the final use , if a draw front will all be 12 " wide ? Down size each item , piece , before planning a bit over lenght "and width" . Sorry for poor spelling BTW.>

1. Let boards acclimate to shop temp/humidity for a few weeks at least. Stacked and stickered, I presume.

Yes for sure .

2. Cut pieces for project a little heavy on length.

Yup.

3. Run B-side through jointer with light passes. I'll have to see if I can find a larger jointer to use for this as mine is a wee 4" and underpowered at that.

< I think we/ they mean edge , not face , the narrow edge . So your 4' jointer is plenty good . Your surface planer is 13" thats a different step. This is where'd I'd str line rip first, less jointer work . >

4. Thickness sander or planer to +1/32nd inch of final desired thickness with light passes. Large panels should be glued up as much as possible before final thicknessing (if a large enough sander/planer is available).

<Sort of , I'd first sort who's ( meaning each brd )is going to be what. Then I'd down size to the bit over , then I'd plane using the other tips , misting , light pass's etc . I'd glue up as large a piece as the sander would take , IF a large panel , read wide pnl, was a player I'd have only one glue joint to mess with after final glue up . >

5. Finish with high angle plane and cabinet scraper

<And I'd use a random orbit sander , sanding all parts up to 180 grit before asembly then after assbly . I'd follow up to 220 , I've not sanded to over 220 ever but thats not to say I shouldn't have , Lefty sez 320 I think he said , I just find it hard to go that fine , and that could be a a point of finish I've missed. So don't think I'm saying it not needed , I just have never , that's just me . >

Paul, I'll look for your photos tomorrow. Thanks to those who have offered to relieve me of this burden, but I can assue you all that my chimeny is clear and it's getting cold in Lansing - we'll be needing them to stay warm ourselves.Well if that's a player, FIRE, remember this guy smile.gif He thought of it first ;)

DON"T TRY TO PLANE THEM. Figured Cherry is highly toxic, deadly in fact. Luckily, I'm immune. I will take them off your hands, no charge to you. You'll pay shipping of course. Thank your stars I warned you in time.

Paul

[Paul Girouard]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by guillemot:
[QB]

3. Run B-side through jointer with light passes. I'll have to see if I can find a larger jointer to use for this as mine is a wee 4" and underpowered at that.

More than likely that jointer is going to work 99% of the time , Mostly it's the edge of the board 3/4" to 2" , some times more but not commonly . I've changed pulleys on my sears and built a better stand , it runs fast/ spins fast / but cuts really nice . If it run's to long without a load ,"which I don't," but friends have , meaning let it run and not be cutting , I keep it loaded with the cut , it can cook a elec part, ,MTL to much speed for the component .I don't remember the name of the thing that fry's off hand , But the point is your 4" might need tweaked but should serve , all most all your jointer needs . the part is a reostat ? Not sure , I have a spare , I think . But the point is your 4" might need tweaked but should serve , all most all your jointer needs .

[Paul Girouard]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by guillemot:
[QB]

You've suggested running the boards throught the planer at an angle. I see how this could be beneficial. Unfortunately, I don't think I'll be able to get much of an angle with a 13" planer and 12" boards.

Ah no I said Start and finish at a slight angle . , cuts down on snipe at least for me. once started slowly bring to 90 , and just before they come "out " angle slightly as the cut runs out . Paul

[Rick Tyler]

Originally posted by Bob Smalser:
It's "dilettante", fellas, not "dillatant". ;) I think you mispelled "pedant."

FWIW, I'd find a big belt sander, too.

[ 11-24-2005, 01:59 AM: Message edited by: Rick Tyler ]

[ishmael]

I think all the bases are covered. And do set it aside till inspired. It's nice stock. A project that would show the figure without being too too. And you should be hand dovetailing before you go at it. smile.gif

I could probably dig up the number for a small sawyer in southern Pennsylvania who saws wide hardwood flitches, mostly walnut and cherry. A nice one piece top on a chest of drawers would be sweet. He used to saw for George Nakashima, finds amazing stuff, takes good care of it. FWIW.

[Mrleft8]

Ummmmm..... Are they dry? You might be waiting a bit longer than a few weeks if they just came off the saw... I would avoid the high angle hand plane after the planer... Stick with a card scraper.

[ishmael]

Not to get too artsy fartsy, but I've always liked this parable from Chuang Tzu, via Merton.

"THE WOODCARVER"

Khing, the woodcarver, made a bell stand.
Of precious wood. When it was finished,
All who saw it were astounded. They said it must be
The work of spirits.
The Prince of Lu said to the master carver:
What is your secret?

Khing replied: I am only a workman;
I have no secret. There is only this:
When I began to think about the work you commanded
I guarded my spirit, did not expend it
On trifles, that were not to the point.
I fasted in order to set
My heart at rest.
After three days fasting, I had forgotten gain and success.
After five days I had forgotten praise or criticism.
After seven days
I had forgotten my body
With all its limbs.

By this time all thought of your Highness
and of the court had faded away.
All that might distract me from the work
Had vanished.
I was collected in the single thought
Of the bell stand.

Then I went to the forest
To see the trees in their own natural state.
When the right tree appeared before my eyes,
The bell stand also appeared in it, clearly, beyond doubt.
All I had to do was to put forth my hand
And begin.

If I had not met this particular tree
There would have been
No bell stand at all.

What happened?
My own collected thought
Encountered the hidden potential in the wood;
From this live encounter came the work
Which you ascribe to the spirits.

- by Chuang Tsu, translated by Thomas Merton

You've got enough stock there for the fronts of two or three chests. Don't waste it in the carcases, use it in the drawer fronts and spacers. Maybe in the front of a nice Shaker side table drawer or two. IMO it's for drawer fronts, not doors or sides or tops. Grew that way, just for you! smile.gif The only danger I see is in making too much a show of it. That, or sanding it for a final finish. tongue.gif :D Simple, plain design, ala the Shakers, will show it just right. I can see one of their graduated chests in it as I write. Cut grain, oil finish, in a sunny space.

Best of luck.

[Paul Girouard]

Jeff Here are those pictures , I hope they help ya down the road .

Let me say first , this isn't the ONLY WAY to do it just my way . They work for me , I have built all sorts of stuff from house's from the mud up , to high end custom Cabs and furinture. Do I know every thing , NO , I learn something new almost every day , and hope I continue to do so.

Some day maybe I build one of these, :rolleyes: http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b299/PEG688/Penobscot14.jpg .

Straight line ripping , http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b299/PEG688/8.jpg This long fence , wish it where 12' sometimes , but works most of the time as not all stock needs to be 12' long.

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b299/PEG688/9.jpg

High fence for raising pnls , cutting rabbits on large parts , it steadies the part way more than the standard fence.

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b299/PEG688/14.jpg

Just drops over the standard fence , one of the reasons I like the Biesemeyer fence .

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b299/PEG688/15.jpg

[ 11-26-2005, 11:18 PM: Message edited by: Paul Girouard ]

[Paul Girouard]

Cont. Chisels and sharpening , one without the other is pretty useless. http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b299/PEG688/1.jpg

I use water stones , what ever you use , make convienent to setup / get to . Learn by doing , your chisels should be at least sharp enough to shave the hair on the back of your hand.

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b299/PEG688/3.jpg My most used chisels , a 1 1/2 , 1", 1/2" , and that buck brothers crank neck 1". With a custom Koa handle and Bibinga (sp) case :cool:

I tap them , well not the crank neck , with a dead blow hammer , and I say tap as in light blows . If your having to hit (in most cases ) hard your chisels they are to dull or your trying to hog to much wood at once.

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b299/PEG688/2.jpg

[ 11-24-2005, 05:14 PM: Message edited by: Paul Girouard ]

[Paul Girouard]

Cont. Scrapers, same as chisels you need a way to sharpen them , or turn the burr in the case of scrapers . http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b299/PEG688/5.jpg

Again KISS,( Keep It Simple Stupid ) easy to setup easy to get to , http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b299/PEG688/4.jpg

The holder bows the scraper , you can do the same with your hands , when I do alot of scraping they can get #1 Tired , #2 HOT , I've taped my fingers before to reduce the heat , ya still get tired/ sore fingers :(

[ishmael]

There are many ways to skin any cat. Nice little leg on that fence, Paul! It's so high for raised panels? Actually, a second look says I'm not seeing it.

One of my small pleasures is watching Roy Underhill. He's so skilled, yet so self-effacing. Always stumbling over words while sawing that sliding dovetail just right. And most one-off sliding dovetails are best sawed by hand. Making two or more, a router.

I should get back in the sawdust. I was okay, not great, and it was okay for me, too. I might still have something to add.

[ 11-24-2005, 03:34 PM: Message edited by: ishmael ]

[Paul Girouard]

The ripped table legs , Before http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b299/PEG688/6.jpg , After staight lineing http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b299/PEG688/Tablelegs.jpg

Now I'm ready to plane them closer to finished size , I will let then sit for a day or so the cont with the process.


http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b299/PEG688/18.jpg
The planer is shown with a beveling jig for like a window or door sill. It gets screwed on from under the real planer bed .

When I start the material in I angle it , if I can , and pick up slightly on the other end both going in and coming out , It reduces snipe .

Remember this is how I do it , with the old tools I have , a newer planer of better quality those tips may not be needed.

[Paul Girouard]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ishmael:
[QB]There are many ways to skin any cat. Nice little leg on that fence, Paul! It's so high for raised panels? Actually, a second look says I'm not seeing it.

That a push stick Ish I was just trying to show how the fence fits over the stock fence . I'll go do a R/P and show ya how I do it , In a while .

Hey a agree with ya on the draw fronts , thats where I'd use those boards first smile.gif , If there was enough I'd do the sides of the case as well , In a R/P look, or if I might have them resawn , read two for one thinner boards and go with a flat pnl look , more shaker IMO than R/P . :cool:

[ 11-24-2005, 08:00 PM: Message edited by: Paul Girouard ]

[ishmael]

Glad you're making sawdust, Paul.

The basics, how a rotating blade cuts, how a fixed blade cuts, are worth explication. Throw in wood movement. If you get those, the world's your oyster. I was lucky that a smart cookie explained it to me. Not a nice man, but smart. The rest is details and spirit.

[ 11-24-2005, 03:54 PM: Message edited by: ishmael ]

[Paul Girouard]

Another jig for cutting tenons http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b299/PEG688/17.jpg Slides on the fence , steadies the stock , etc. http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b299/PEG688/16.jpg

Works well for me smile.gif

[ 11-24-2005, 08:01 PM: Message edited by: Paul Girouard ]

[Paul Girouard]

Hope this helps ya Jeff , I got to quit for a while my neck and two fingers are getting sore :rolleyes: Happy Thanksgiving , Paul

[ 11-24-2005, 08:02 PM: Message edited by: Paul Girouard ]

[Paul Girouard]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ishmael:
[QB]Glad you're making sawdust, Paul.

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b299/PEG688/sawdust.jpg What saw dust , I don't see no skinkin saw dust :D

[Paul Girouard]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Paul Girouard:
[QB][QUOTE]Originally posted by ishmael:
[QB]There are many ways to skin any cat. Nice little leg on that fence, Paul! It's so high for raised panels? Actually, a second look says I'm not seeing it.

Here ya go , http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b299/PEG688/cutendgrainfirst.jpg I cut the end grain first,

Then the long grain,

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b299/PEG688/cutlonggrain.jpg

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b299/PEG688/donewithcutting.jpg Panel ready to sand / scrape etc . Paul

[Paul Girouard]

Sanding station and lighting , http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b299/PEG688/sandinglight.jpg
The light and angle of it realy helps ya see the details when your working . The added benie this time of year is it's warm as well smile.gif

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b299/PEG688/sandRP.jpg Door in process, really these two pine doors have been in a corner for years , I think I screwed up the size :rolleyes: and had to make two other ones for the project, That would go back to "The man who never made a mistake never made anything". P.I. Stazzer-Newt 11-23-2005 smile.gif

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b299/PEG688/maketheframe.jpg So now I'd just make the frame for that MDF pnl I just raised , and sand / scrape etc . Paul

[ishmael]

Yes Paul, I know. 14 1/2 degrees. Cut them mostly on a shaper, but a table saw does about as well.

Have to get back to it. I'd like to make some intense small things. Learn milk paints, learn some folk art. Maybe some mechanicals, whirly gigs.

I'm glad you're into it. Carry on, dear friend.

[Paul Girouard]

My two Cherry jewels ,

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b299/PEG688/12.jpg

Wet with paint thinner to jazz-um up a bit .

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b299/PEG688/11.jpg
Paul

[Paul Girouard]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ishmael:
[QB]Yes Paul, I know. 14 1/2 degrees. Cut them mostly on a shaper, but a table saw does about as well.

I set my blade at 7 deg. Not that 14 1/2 is wrong smile.gif Wish I had a good shaper , but ya gotta build with what ya got smile.gif Paul

[ishmael]

Seven!? That's gotta be off. Could be the scale on your saw is off.

[Paul Girouard]

Originally posted by ishmael:
Seven!? That's gotta be off. Could be the scale on your saw is off.http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b299/PEG688/7degrees.jpg Could be but when set at" 0 "the blade is at 90 degrees to the table. When set a 45 deg, it's a 45 cut.

[Paul Girouard]

oh BTW as I was sitting in the hot tub I thought of a few added things to ponder. # 1 My table saw has no guards , Biesemeyer sells a good guard and dust collection system, I don't have one , too spendy :eek: The last shop I worked at had one and it is workable , and helps w/ dust . I think our best protection for injury is our own brain , if you don't think it's going to work for you , find another way to do it or protect yourself . I really like guards and seldom prop up my skilsaw guard, if I do it's for "a " cut then the prop comes out , I preach that to the guys who work under me , my boss if he is working OTJ is the worst , ex A -6 Pilot :rolleyes: Stuborn , I do bust on him for it though ;)

So if you try to do what I do , be very careful . I have all the fingers and toes I was born with , Four stitches(sp) on my left thumb when I was young (19) and dumb . Cutting a gable return piece , VERY lucky smile.gif

I have seen three very bad job site injuries in my life time , one of which was fatal , E-2 Hawkeye blades will cut what ever is in the way , countless times, fatal. Here's a hawkeye at work if ya never seen one , http://www.military.cz/usa/air/in_service/aircraft/e2c/e2ca.jpg

The bonus for me as 621 in the background , this is a "old picture" as EA-6B's , Prowlers, are all 500 series now since the A-6 went away
. Bonus for me . For looking farther / harder to let you all see "what It is" I was trying to say, picture worth a 1000 words .

A fall backward from one floor to another hitting bracing can and did break a collar bone , and a scull. Plus stitches. A lot of them :(

A 45 deg . chamfer bit in a "D " handle router , not tightened ,over head , will depart the handle and run down a guys or gals arm to the toon of 180+ or so stitches .


So tools are our friend , and they can hurt you . Sort of :( like people ,friends in a way :( Paul

[ 11-25-2005, 01:40 AM: Message edited by: Paul Girouard ]

[ishmael]

Ouch!

Not losing a digit, or an eye, or your head in the case of the E-2, means it was a good accident. smile.gif Ya can't be around it for long and not get a bit torn up occasionally. And once they have to sew something back on it's never quite the same. A friend once lost almost half the middle finger, on his right hand, too, to a square-head jointer. Nothing left to be sewn. I always chided him, "How'd ya let it go past the first knuckle?" Shattered the thin piece he was jointing and sucked his finger right in, before he had time to flinch. He's lucky it wasn't worse, like more than one finger, and I noticed he used push sticks much more frequently, afterward. A lesson learned.

And I'm wondering now if my mind has gone. Seven degrees? Why do I remember 14 1/2 so clearly?

Ah well, maybe one of our other experts will chime in. No skin off my nose if you're right and I'm wrong. smile.gif

[ 11-25-2005, 07:10 AM: Message edited by: ishmael ]

[Paul Girouard]

Another jig , for crosscutting long , narrow sheet goods .

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b299/PEG688/crosscutbox.jpg

Again no guard :eek: The spacer is 1" so I just set my fence to 1" over the size I want .

You NEVER want to use two guides / fences with a table saw . IE a miter guide and the fence , or in this case the crosscut box and the fence.


The spacer is only in contact before the cut starts.

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b299/PEG688/1inchspacer.jpg

Ready to cut,

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b299/PEG688/readytocut.jpg Paul

[Mrleft8]

14 degrees (How do you get that tiny little 0 to appear?) would be more for a Jacobean panel, not, certainly, anything anyone would be likely to use today on a contempory piece. 7 (0) is pretty much average, just like a dovetail joint angle, but some like it shallower.

[Paul Girouard]

Planer tips . Run multiple pieces to save time and with small stock like this the "grouping" holds them up right , 90° to the bed . Learned something new today the little ° dealie smile.gif

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b299/PEG688/runmultiples.jpg

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b299/PEG688/anglein.jpg Notice the angle starting , and

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b299/PEG688/angleout.jpg

coming out .

Two different runs, "the run out pic " is two 3/4 x 3 1/2 boards.

[ 11-26-2005, 06:21 PM: Message edited by: Paul Girouard ]

[Paul Girouard]

Tapering jig . This gets full 100% attention . Lots going on thats not normal , angle jig , angle to true fence , keeping the stock tight to both the end stop and angled fence .

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b299/PEG688/tapeingrjig.jpg

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b299/PEG688/nicewedge.jpg

If you plan ahead and are only tapering two side you can always have a 90° face down on the tablesaw bed.

Learned something new today , the degree dealie , ° , :cool: Thanks to Lefty for asking and others for teaching .

Also learned if you don't have the Nun. lock key pushed you lose your post redface.gif

I use a fresh insert for this process, as I don't want the fall off wedge to get caught up in the tablesaw insert and kick back at me or distract me . I make my own from plywood 1/2 " and use small screws to adj. it for height.

Every saw brand / model that might not work.

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b299/PEG688/freshinsert.jpg

[Meerkat]

Paul;

Thanks for the invite to come and read this thread!

Compared to the rest of us, you and Bob Smalser live virtually within spitting distance of each other. Seems like you both have a lot of common interests... ;)

Um... I think the surface of your table saw is larger than my entire living space... :D

[Hughman]

all these pictures of jigs...

The old guy in the boat shop used to laugh at us trying to figure out stuff. He was in his eighties, and still had all his fingers.

I was getting out deck beams, with a pronounced camber, fooling with a bandsaw. Old Dick, he's shaking his head over on his workbench, so I asked him what he's on about.

He shuffles over and grabbed my piece, which I had cut the outside curve on and takes it to the table saw. I thought this was another boatshop prank, like nailing your toolbox to the deck at quitting time, but Dick just sets the fence to the beam thickness and rams that teak through the saw like he was mad at it.

It had the nicest inside curve you could ask for.

Old Dick shuffles back to his bench, saying "Just don't stop in the middle"

[Paul Girouard]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Hughman:
[QB]all these pictures of jigs...

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Paul Girouard:
[QB]Jeff Where are those pictures , I hope they help ya down the road .

Let me say first , this isn't the ONLY WAY to do it just my way . They work for me

And BTW their where pictures of chisel's and sharpening stones and even the fantail/ round down / landing area of a pretty big boat, and a couple of aircraft smile.gif

Should have said "Here are " not "Where are" stinkin grasshopper brain , me that is redface.gif

[guillemot]

All the jig shots are great. I'll second what Meercat said about the tablesaw:living space ratio. Though I bet sleeping on that iron top gets chilly in the winter.

Paul, what do you mean by this :" I use a fresh insert for this process, as I don't want the fall off wedge to get caught up in the tablesaw insert"?

Do you have shots of successful homebuilt tennoning jigs and how to build them? These photos are a great resource.

[George Roberts]

guillemot ---

I guess your problem is a lot like smoothing this table top:

http://www.robertscpa.com/kayaks/PieCrustTable.JPG

Any type of power planer will result in some tearout. A high angle hand plane, 60 degree, will reduce the tear out. A very high angle hand plane or scraper, 90 degrees should get it all out.

[Paul Girouard]

Originally posted by guillemot:


Paul, what do you mean by this :" I use a fresh insert for this process, as I don't want the fall off wedge to get caught up in the tablesaw insert"?

From left to right no insert , factory insert just (about worth less IMO), older "used" insert , note how sloppy the slot is , new insert just the blade comes thru , insert up side down to show adj. screws and let out so blade stablizers don't hit the bottom (used for a dado head I have.

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b299/PEG688/tablesawinserts.jpg

Do you have shots of successful homebuilt tennoning jigs and how to build them? These photos are a great resource.Tenoning jig refresher , expounded apon .

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b299/PEG688/tendoningjiginuse.jpg http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b299/PEG688/halfwaycut.jpg http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b299/PEG688/cheakwithHatachi.jpg http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b299/PEG688/checkwithhandsaw.jpg http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b299/PEG688/tenon.jpg

Shows cheek cuts on the tablesaw , and two (not all ) the ways to finish the cheek cuts . The shoulders can be done the same way , The mortise is another story :D

This was a down and dirty tenon done on a 2x6 large for ease of viewing , explaining , all setting etc . need to be done to fit the project.
Paul

[ 11-27-2005, 06:25 PM: Message edited by: Paul Girouard ]

[Paul Girouard]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by George Roberts:
[QB]guillemot ---

http://www.robertscpa.com/kayaks/PieCrustTable.JPG

Nice job George , what is the wood ? One large slab? :cool:
Paul

[Paul Girouard]

Tenoning jig extras . http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b299/PEG688/cornerblocks.jpg

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b299/PEG688/otherjiguses.jpg

Needed corner blocks for a table with the little corner cut out, to miss the leg but get to the stretchers.

So tenoning jig has other uses :cool:

Think outside the box , see solutions not problems. And yes I could have jig sawed , or hand sawn the corners but this was fast and accurate , both good things. Paul

[George Roberts]

Paul ---

H. Mahogany. One piece.

[Paul Girouard]

Originally posted by George Roberts:
Paul ---

H. Mahogany. One piece.:cool: :cool: :cool:

[guillemot]

wow.

what is the status of mahogany in Honduras? my understanding is that those forests are highly vulnerable now. perhaps that is a discussion for a different forum, though. The table is beautiful!

[Paul Girouard]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Paul Girouard:
[QB][QUOTE]Originally posted by guillemot:
[qb]

X-mas is coming, and I've been reasonably good this year.



Keep the router/router table info coming, though. I've been good this year, and christmas is coming. Maybe Santa will bring me one...

edited: or maybe Santa will just send Bob to deliver them and show me how to use them properly...[/qb


So Jeff "How good did Santa think you where?"
Paul

[George Roberts]

guillemot ---

My suppliers of H. Mahogany have reliable suppliers. In general, the price of crotches is $12-15/bdft. Plain H. Mahogany is $7/bdft for 9-13" widths.

For those who like cherry: (http://www.horizonwood.com/english/store/index.html)

http://horizonwood.com/english/store/images/066717A-3-4.jpg

[Beowolf]

Jeff,

Let's go back to your original post. This sawmill in Southern Michigan...You holding out on me?... ;)

Just kidding.

Candace said you called. Sorry I haven't gotten back to you. Been pretty hectic around here. (Piss-poor excuse. I know.)

Merry Christmas.

Jeff

[guillemot]

We'll, it seems that santa couldn't fit that new jointer down the chimmey, so he brought it back to the north pole, ah well.... Overall it was a pretty good showing. Nothing fancy, but I've been given the opportunity to get a set of chisels to begin making progress on some furniture. No chisels = no dovetails.

Jeff (Beowolf), glad to hear you're well. I figured you'd been busy what with young children, building a house and such. How's it going?

Happy Holidays all,
Jeff

[Paul Girouard]

Originally posted by guillemot:

Jeff (Beowolf), glad to hear you're well. I figured you'd been busy what with young children, building a house and such. How's it going?

Happy Holidays all,
JeffI'd say he's holding out bewolf tongue.gif


Beowolf
.
Member # 1837

posted 12-25-2005 10:15 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jeff,

Let's go back to your original post. This sawmill in Southern Michigan...You holding out on me?...

Paul

[PeterSibley]

orginally posted by Paul
I think our best protection for injury is our own brain

in my cast Paul ...an intermitent protection unfortunately :(

[PeterSibley]

As an aside ,just reading what guillemot/Jeff wrote about chisels and dovetails ....does anyone else cut them on the bandsaw...pins and tails?

[Paul Girouard]

Originally posted by PeterSibley:
orginally posted by Paul
I think our best protection for injury is our own brain

in my cast Paul ...an intermitent protection unfortunately :( Well working with a "cast" would make it all that more difficult ;) Extra care would be advised smile.gif Paul

[PeterSibley]

Ooops! I really should check my spelling smile.gif

[Paul Girouard]

Hey it happens redface.gif to me all the time , I just thought I'd make a funny about it smile.gif And kick the thread back up to the top ;)

Gudday mate ;) Paul

Edited to add I should have said working "in a cast" , I knew / figured you meant ,case.

[ 12-27-2005, 01:30 AM: Message edited by: Paul Girouard ]

[Mrleft8]

Originally posted by PeterSibley:
As an aside ,just reading what guillemot/Jeff wrote about chisels and dovetails ....does anyone else cut them on the bandsaw...pins and tails?I've been known to cut both pins and tails on a table saw. Tails on a bandsaw, never tried pins on the bandsaw....

[Garrett Lowell]

Thanks, George Roberts, for that cherry supplier link.

[guillemot]

Do you have a special blade for the table saw? I seem to remember a reference to something like that in Fine Woodworking 6 months ago or so They guy supposedly ground down the teeth on his blade to match the anlge at the top of the notch so he could get right into the corners with it. Does that make any sense?

J

[PeterSibley]

It works well on the band,I use a sharp blade with the set stoned off.....zero to very little kerf.I also have an accurate protractor?,angle scale on the band....from around -8 degrees to 45.It helps if things are reproducable smile.gif

[Mrleft8]

Originally posted by guillemot:
Do you have a special blade for the table saw? I seem to remember a reference to something like that in Fine Woodworking 6 months ago or so They guy supposedly ground down the teeth on his blade to match the anlge at the top of the notch so he could get right into the corners with it. Does that make any sense?

JThat was an article by Steve Latta, a few years ago I think. No I just get real close with a regular blade, and clean it up with a chisel. Cutting the pins is easier. I use a secondary (angled) fence on my cross cut sled that's set at 7 (degrees....My computer won't make the little degree mark).

[guillemot]

Back to the topic:

Last night I ran a short piece of wildly curled maple through my planer expecting the worst. It came out looking almost glassy, and I finished it with a card scraper. So after all our conversation here, turns out it's not a big deal. I just rubbed a very little WD40 on the planer bed to smooth the way and used sharp knives with better results than I'd ever hoped for.

About Jigs:
I imagine I could spend as much time making jigs as I would actually building things! I have a notion in my head that before one starts making things easier for oneself, he should learn to to things "the hard way" to gain a better appreciation of process. So I got a fresh blade for my dozuki saw last week and plan to learn to cut the dovetails properly by hand before I start making any jigs for my power tools. However, I only have mortice chisels and need to get a bevel-chisel first - always something! I have been looking at the Stanley 750 chisels come and go on ebay and thinking about Bob Smalser's advice to buy other non-collectible brands, but the 750 is the only one where I actually know what it is. The others are vaguely often described and I don't really know what I'm looking for. Anyone have chisel buying suggestions for this task?

I have a friend from my last job in Woods Hole, MA, who had similar interests to mine. We both started building dories the same week, and we both started building shaker-style end tables around the same time too. He build a plywood Bolger Gloucester Light Dory, and I started building with pine, oak and copper from Bill Gardeners' Plans. Four years later, our boats are at very similar stages in construction (neither is done!)- but he's put in about 40 hours, and I've probably got about 650 in mine (my fiance says 1000, so I'm glad I never kept count!). His two tables were build from Norm Abrhams new yankee workshop plans, and I build from Thomas Moser's drawing. He build and finished two of them over two weekends. I haven't finished mine. I am determined to launch my dory before he does, though!

The man who does things "right" (a) has no boat and (b) has no place to set his glass at night. Ah well, so much for "proper".

[Paul Girouard]

Originally posted by guillemot:
Back to the topic:

I just rubbed a very little WD40 on the planer bed to smooth the way and used sharp knives with better results than I'd ever hoped for.

I use paste wax , keep the bed waxed , some use Boeshield , I'd not use WD40 to slick the bed it might work short haul but the others work long haul , theres a spray from 3M that works well also.

WD40 as a rust prevent.. deal on tools in a cold shop/damp shop sprayed on a rag, wiped on , ya ok. And for a squeeky car door hinge smile.gif

About Jigs:
I imagine I could spend as much time making jigs as I would actually building things! I have a notion in my head that before one starts making things easier for oneself, he should learn to to things "the hard way" to gain a better appreciation of process.

I learned all the hard ways I want :( Fast, accuracte and easy is better IMO.

Anyone have chisel buying suggestions for this task?

One you can sharpen even if it needs touched up as you go .


Four years later, our boats are at very similar stages in construction (neither is done!)

Frozen by waiting for the right tool/ ,situation?

His two tables were build from Norm Abrhams new yankee workshop plans, and I build from Thomas Moser's drawing.

Both have something to offer , neither is always" right" , nor are any of us always "right"

The man who does things "right" (a) has no boat and (b) has no place to set his glass at night. Ah well, so much for "proper".And " A man / women who has never made a mistake , has never built anything !"

A sage last statement , good luck , press on, Paul

[Paul Girouard]

Long stock ripping alone .

20' 5/4X12 pre primed spruce , 1x10 PPS 16' ripped w/ 45 ° bevel.

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b299/PEG688/longrippingsled2.jpg

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b299/PEG688/longslid3.jpg

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b299/PEG688/longrippingsled1.jpg

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b299/PEG688/bevelsled1.jpg

http://photobucket.com/albums/b299/PEG688/th_bevelsled3.jpg

100 L/F of 5/4 x12 (ripped to 10" net , 96 L/F of 1x10 ripped to 9" net w/ 45° bevel . Set up , already made, been used table extention , total time, 45 minutes off the van , setup , back on the van , one man smile.gif

Fast and accurate :cool: Paul

[Mrleft8]

WD40 is a really bad thing to use as a lubricant on your planer bed. It's got silly cone in it, which will make finishing you beautiful curly Cherry a nightmare.

[guillemot]

mreleft8 - consider that noted. I found my paste wax, but had reached for the wd40 in frustration. my brand new dewalt 13" planer wasn't feeding lumber through after the first smoothing pass. it just left rubber burn marks from the feed rollers. dewalt sent a complimentary set of extension infeed and outfeed tables and a set of replacement knives as well (both of which helped to smooth me out, but no the planer). finally i thought to try a lubricant - and that's all it took. I will stop using it now that I know it's not the right stuff. thanks.

paul - "right" way = the way I wanted things to look. that's all. turns out it's really jsut the long way!

[Paul Girouard]

Bump ;)
Paul