Atkins Island Princess Schooner

[sv Lorelei]

An interesting looking boat tho' at 36' 7" and 538 sq. feet, she appears woefully under-canvassed. Anybody have any experience with this particular John Atkin design?

http://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/Sail/IslandPrincess.html

http://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/Sail/images/IslandPrincess-1.gif

[mmd]

So, rig it with a gaff main, tops'l, and fisherman's staysail. Might as well have lots of strings to pull, and the modified rig will add about 200 sq. ft. of sail for light airs. The SA/Displ ratio will go from 13.84 to 19.31, which should be good for a cruiser.

[sv Lorelei]

I was thinking along those lines too. But would a Gaff main throw the CE aft somewhat? Enough to consider moving the mast (and opening up that can of worms)? Or am I overthinking this.

[mmd]

Yep, CE would move aft. But, since we are playing with the rig, you could counter the additional sail aft by making the foremast a few feet taller thereby making the for's'l, stays'l, and jib larger. More SA & the CofE stays put.

The next thing to look at would be standing rigging strength and righting moment, due to the raising of the CofE. Just the standard NavArch dance to be done when messing with a design...

[sv Lorelei]

Hmmm...As a change from a marconi main to a gaffer wouldn't require as high a mainmast, I wonder whether you'd need to mess with it heighwise to get more area. Increasing the height of the foremast would be pretty much a given, but I'm thinking it might require more of a modest change in ballasting than if you took 'em both up a few feet.

I spoke to a guy out on Block Island a few weeks ago who'd been single handing an Alden for years up and down the east coast, and he swore by the utility of the rig. It got me thinking...

[outofthenorm]

http://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/Photos/IslandPrincess/IslandPrincess-09.jpg

The photos on the Atkin site show her moving along right smartly in a strong breeze, but I'd guess she'd be ... let's say leisurely, with less wind. But it's a pretty hull and a simple build for a boat that size. Probably work well in ply. But I would want to go as tall as a NA would let me and just reef early and often. If you were a single hander, that's a fine rig as drawn. If you had regular crew, you could use an overlapping loose-footed foresail like the America had. Then she'd go.

- Norm

[sv Lorelei]

I ran across a reference from someone who had sailed on one once in lighter air and I believe the phrase "couldn't get out of our own way" was used. The Atkin site doesn't mention displacement in the write up but with a 4' 9" draft and only 4750 out and 1200 inside ballast she's pretty much on the lighter end of the scale as far as their designs went.

The picture is nice. I'm figuring, what, 15 plus knots, and she's bearing up well. But a low aspect rig will do that for you, which is what I think John Atkin was intending more than anything else with IP. That also makes the overlapping foresail an interesting option to increase SA without putting it up on top.

The guy I met who was single handing the Alden said that usually the main was the first thing to go, followed by the jib, then if things got really rockin he'd run under staysail alone. He said putting a reef in for a single hander takes too long so either the sail's up or down.

Simple build? I'm not too sure about that. He mentions putting some flam in the bow section and it appears that she has some compound curvature in most of her hull surfaces. I'd suspect you could do her in ply but I wouldn't be surprised if you'd ended up spending more than a few evenings scratching your head.

[Oscarvan]

Yep, CE would move aft.

How much? And how much does it have to move to have a noticeable effect on the helm?

We're talking taking the main down, and sailing on mizzen and stays'l alone in a blow.....wouldn't that move the CE forward considerably more? By a factor 100?

If you add two feet to the mizzen mast, is that a lot? A few degrees heel, a half a knot? quarter?

I'm trying to get my head around the magnitudes involved here....

Is there anyone willing to hold a small dissertation on the subject? I've sailed all my life, and never worried about it too much, other than reducing sail to counter heeling and to keep the thing in trim when over canvassed. As long as, after reefing, the square footage is about right, and I keep it low.......But I'm no NA.....just drink it.

[donald branscom]

I ran across a reference from someone who had sailed on one once in lighter air and I believe the phrase "couldn't get out of our own way" was used. The Atkin site doesn't mention displacement in the write up but with a 4' 9" draft and only 4750 out and 1200 inside ballast she's pretty much on the lighter end of the scale as far as their designs went.

The picture is nice. I'm figuring, what, 15 plus knots, and she's bearing up well. But a low aspect rig will do that for you, which is what I think.........(shortened)

"15+knots" ? More like 30+knots, look at the white caps in the background. It should move along smartly!

[sv Lorelei]

"15+knots" ? More like 30+knots, look at the white caps in the background. It should move along smartly!

I was giving a pretty good drama factor to the black and white photo making the waves look more viscious than they might be. It doesn't look as heavy as 30 knots. I'd buy somewhere in the mid 20's but then...we were just out in 15-20 with gusts well into the 30's a couple weekends ago....with nothing but a working jib and we were broad reaching at a good knot and a half above hull speed when she'd come back up from a puff.

Oscar, basically you're right. A couple of caveats being that a lower aspect rig is going to take more wind to heel over than a taller aspect rig with the same square footage on the same hull with the same ballast. So you're decision point to reef may be at a higher wind velocity everything else being equal. What this guy was implying is that if you have a schooner you're probably not going to be the type that's concerned with windward performance as a top priority in the first place, and that if you're to the point where you've struck the jib and main, you're probably running off to some degree anyway, in the second. Now with a crew I'm sure he'd take a different approach. Especially considering that when you reef a gaffer the CE of the sail moves basically downward whereas when you reef a Marconi sail it moves down and forward, so there's more to be gained by shortening the rig from the top down.

The CE is a theoretical point and in fact just sheeting the main out and in is going to change where it is, but it does give you a reference point to how the boats rig will balance. I'll let someone better qualified approach the theory as I'm just as much a hack as you, really!

[John B]

"15+knots" ? More like 30+knots, look at the white caps in the background. It should move along smartly!

I agree with Donald, photos always mask the sea state and I immediately thought 25 to 30 and maybe plus when I saw that pic.

[Lion]

I agree with Donald, photos always mask the sea state and I immediately thought 25 to 30 and maybe plus when I saw that pic.

I was always taught 'white caps' = 25knts +. Looks like a spanking 30+ to me, we can't hear the wind howl, the strings slapping nor taste the salt spray from here.

Island Princess looks underdone for sail for me. Like to think you can just about get the best out of a displacement sailboat in the range of 10 -25kts and then maybe think about trading of a reef for heel etc..

Lion

[Lance F. Gunderson]

Back in the'80's there was one of these here in Kittery Point; she appeared well maintained but didn't seem to get much use. I heard there was a divorce, and the last time I saw her she was sitting up at Independent Boat Haulers in Eliot, uncovered and slowly deteriorating. Could be a good buy if you are looking to buy.

[sv Lorelei]

Thanks Lance, but I'm looking at doing a new build. I just sent for the study plans and hopefully will have more of a basis to make a legitimate evaluation once we get 'em.

Being a Long Island Sound area sailor I'm a big proponent of low aspect rigs. Last weekend was a case in point. We sailed from Clinton out to Shelter Island on Friday in 1-3 feet on a close/broad reach with a pretty steady 15 knots from the NE which died down to 5-10 once we got through Plum Gut and could run with it. It was a great sail. Coming back we had 10-15 until we hit the Gut with 1-2 foot seas and then once we were through it got nasty with winds 15-25 from the WSW and seas built up into a five foot short chop for much of the way with some larger seas depending on where we were.

It was a long day spent trying to pinch with a semi-furled 130 and single reefed main. The run from Shelter to the gut was around 6 nm with the run from the gut to home being around 15 nm most of which we spent tacking off the mouth of the CT river trying to break free of the rips caused by the river current. It was not a fun afternoon of sailing, and despite the fact that we'd anticipated nasty conditions, some stuff was still breaking loose and flying around the cabin below.

However, on our trip out to Block a few weeks earlier it was strictly a motor sail with winds mostly below 5 knots and seas around a foot or less for the majority of the week, but hella fog in the mornings. It's feast or famine here. We spent the better part of the day transiting from Watch Hill to Block making about 2 knots SOG until we decided that as we'd gotten an early start, we'd like to be in before dinner.

A couple of observations. A boat that can carry a properly shaped sail in challenging conditions will out point a boat that can't ...despite how well engineered the rig may be for "normal" conditions. We were being out pointed by a very nice Hinckley ketch that was being driven hard, and were just able to point a tad higher than a reefed cat boat.

Second, a boat on her bottom will do better in confused seas. The fact that the seas at the mouth of the CT river, which are generally snotty anyway, were not helped by the intermittent egress of several squadrons of medium to large power boats ended up pushing water around where it wasn't making life any better for us also didn't make the A-4 happy with all the hobby-horsing we were doing. We've never had the prop cavitate despite being in some pretty heavy going in the past 8 years, but it was doing so regularly on Monday.

The conclusion is that we need a boat that'll stand up to the short chop with a good spread of sail, but that you can still hang a lot of sq. ft. from in light winds. I'm hoping that a modified rig on Island Princess could do the job for us. We'll see....

[Lance F. Gunderson]

Island Princess is a very pretty and seductive boat, but she may be rather poor in light airs, which I strongly suspect was why the one in Kittery Point seemed to get very little use. I would think for Long Island Sound sailing a cutter or sloop that could be quickly and easily reefed down would be better.

[sv Lorelei]

I agree that with the rig as designed she'd be poor in light airs, but as mmd pointed out it wouldn't be too tough to add 200 or so square feet to the plan without upsetting the balance. We have plans for Tally Ho Major (a cutter), but once you look at them side by side, THM is a much more involved and much more expensive build. The jury is still out as to which one we'll tackle.

One of my concerns with IP is that she looks like she may tend to want to pound a bit, in the chop where THM looks more like she'd want to shoulder right on through. THM carries about 4500 lbs more ballast and while that should make her steadier, it also means a corresponding increase in things like the size of the ground tackle.

Also, the motor vs. sail decision here is often as much a factor of current than of wind. On the run down from Watch Hill there are at least 5 tidal rips you have to go through or around between there and Clinton. Thames River, Bartlett's Reef, Hachett's Point, The CT river, and Kelsey Point. Depending on how you catch 'em they can make a nice little sail in one direction or a very long day in the other.

With a 31 foot LWL on THM versus 29 feet on IP it looks like Major is actually the bigger boat despite being two feet shorter, and I would expect would be the more nimble performer, but they both have appeal in their own ways. THM was IMO the apex of that type of vessel for Wm. Atkin, as I think IP was for John. They're both esthically pleasing boats, and boats that I think could be expected to perform better than their designs using the materials and hardware available now versus then.

Having said that, IP appears to be a much more straighforward and less expensive build, and I've found that THM's tables of offsets are a little funky on the end stations, and it appears that it's going to be a boat that is subject to a lot more interpretation than IP. I'm waiting for more info before I make a call, though.

[Lance F. Gunderson]

Ned McIntosh's Tally Ho Major "Starcrest" is moored here in the Back Channell. She always seems to be sailing well, but that could well be due to Ned's exceptional skills as a skipper. A few years ago I watched them flying down through Fisherman Island Passage on a close reach while I in my Rhodes Ranger 28 lay becalmed in the Mussel Ridge Channell; Ned could always find a breeze. Starcrest has seen a lot of use over the years and has provided plenty of adventure. I think Ned has been happy with her. Perhaps you could have a gam with him! Bud's old cutter Mickey Finn has just recently appeared on a mooring here in Pepperrell Cove; she's painted all white now and even has a hint of varnish in the cabin molding. She looks well loved and more or less ready for action. She's a salty old hooker and reminds me of Bud...she sort of looks like him. Have you considered any of his designs? His own cutter "Bufflehead" was a successful cruising boat which I admired. "Forthright" is another good one also here in Kittery Point; I think Joel White and Gordon Swift had a hand in her along with Bud. She may be an improvement on Starcrest.

[sv Lorelei]

Lance, if you could get some pics of Starcrest I'd love to see her. I know the Cape George Cutters are based on THM but they're considerably different (beamier). I've seen a couple of renditions of THM but have yet to see one built and rigged as designed. I do feel that it was one of Billy's best shots at a cruising boat that could perform well too. With 765 square feet of S/A before you start playing around with light air sails she's got enough area to make her go. Hang out an assym in light airs and I'd bet you'd be more around 900 square feet.

Controlling depth in many of the channels around here is 6 feet. Our current boat (Columbia 28) draws around 4 and a half, so a boat drawing less than 5 wouldn't change our style much. We carry a 33 lb. Bruce as our primary anchor which has served us well. It's a lot of anchor for our boat, but it held us without dragging in 35 feet in Great Salt Pond last year when we got nailed by a severe Thunderboomer with winds clocked at 60 mph.

I don't really like anchor windlasses if I can avoid them as the manual ones seem tedious and the electrics seem like trouble-prone, but 22,000 lbs of boat is going to take some anchor to keep her staying put and I'm not as strong as I used to be. I've thought of L. F. Herreshoff's trick of leading a tackle up to the anchor chain from the sheet winch and just using that to pull the anchor up from the cockpit, but we really have our drill down on getting her up and out.

This boat is probably going to be my last major build (but haven't I said that about every boat I've built?) and our purpose is to end up with a boat that can cruise four anywhere in relative comfort, and cruise two with ease.

I'd love to touch bases with Ned just to see what we can expect from THM. If you have an email for him, IM me with it.

[PeterSibley]

Island Princes looks to be very much an enlargement of the original Coot /Ensenada design ,dating from 1924 or thereabouts .Similar hullform ,if proportionally much narrower,she looks as though building won't be to hard .I seriously considered Coot for a long time and looking at it again I'd say Island Princess would be easier , I'd crossplank her...after all she is a sharpie .

[sv Lorelei]

Peter, IP was Johns stretching and fairing of William's Little Maid of Kent, which despite her schooner rig looks suspiciously similar to a Seabird Yawl in hull form with less overhang aft. Yes, a sharpie for sure! Thus my concern with her tendency's as to whether the deadrise has been increased enough to dampen that hull form's tendency to want to pound when going to weather.

[PeterSibley]

Yes , you're right ,pretty obvious when you look at them together .Have compared the Coot lines ?
http://pic40.picturetrail.com/VOL282/9443996/17245530/277547792.jpg
http://pic40.picturetrail.com/VOL282/9443996/17245530/277547789.jpg