Wood in Michigan, theoretical questions, Michigan boatbulders

[Jack Heinlen]

This may belong in another section, but here goes.

My brother is building a 22 ft. Bank dory out of foam and glass. He's getting ready to install the gunwale. He wants to make the inwale and outwale out of stock that will be 20 ft. long, 5/8th thick and 2 1/2 wide. There will be an additional rubrail approximately 1 1/2 square in section.

His problem is two fold: he isn't a woodworker and he lives on an island. He also, for some reason, doesn't want a scarf in any of the pieces.

Okay, two questions: What wood and do you know an artisan near Cheboygan, MI, or who ships? He wants to be able to take the pieces out of the box and fasten them to the boat.

We've tossed around a variety of options. The length without scarfs seems the most expensive feature of his plan. I've tried to talk him into either learning how to scarf or accepting other's scarfs, but NO SCARFS!

So, any thoughts? I think he's aiming toward mahogany, but other woods might be acceptable. Ash, Oak, Fir, etc. He's got a quote of 6-7 hundred from a Michigan guy, in mahogany.

It's a little frustrating for me, because he's got access to rough red oak on the island, and I know with a couple leisurely days and a simple shop that I could make his rails for him cheaply, but I'm 1200 miles away. There is, apparently, no general woodworker on the island, let alone a boatbuilder(There's a niche for such who would like to live in a gorgeous place in Lake Huron. There is a real need!).

Ideal would be a boatbuilder, north of Lansing, who could maybe talk him into a few scarfs. smile.gif I also wonder if Bob Smalser might be interested in the job, working with some of that lovely fir of his.

[Bob Smalser]

??

I'm 2276 miles away, with a full plate.

I do have some 22' CVG DF that would be perfect with a small tad of resawing and planing...

...they are rafters.

No lumber yards or framing carpenters near there? Hauling 20' sticks on a carpenter's ladder rack on our ferries is routine, as would be running a good-looking rafter thru his TS and benchtop planer.

[ 10-10-2004, 11:43 AM: Message edited by: Bob Smalser ]

[Gary E]

"My brother is building a 22 ft. Bank dory out of foam and glass. He's getting ready to install the gunwale. He wants to make the inwale and outwale out of stock that will be 20 ft. long, 5/8th thick and 2 1/2 wide. There will be an additional rubrail approximately 1 1/2 square in section."

Agree he should make them hizself.

One other thing...howz a 20 ft board gona fit on a 22 ft boat?

[Bruce Hooke]

There are plenty of lumber suppliers that would be happy to provide what he's looking for, but the shipping cost is going to be out of sight because it will have to come truck frieght.

It seems to me that finding a 20' piece of douglas fir should not be a problem -- any good lumberyard should have doug fir in that length -- the problem is that he apparently needs someone who can mill it to size for him, right? If so, then scarfing is a moot point because he would still need someone to mill out the stock for him, and if someone is going to mill out the stock they might as well mill it out of a single piece, if such is available.

Unless he wants something fancy like mahongany it seems to me that the whole problem will be a lot simpler if he sticks with wood that is locally available, like, presumably, douglas fir 2x stock.

[Jack Heinlen]

?? indeed.

I have a difficult time understanding, myself. But I think it's just what he describes: No woodworking skills, no planer, no shop tools for woodworking, no desire to make these pieces. He's been focused on building this boat out of glass and foam and googe, and now he's confronted with WOOD. smile.gif

He could aquire the modicum of skill, such as scarfing, but he wants to get this boat done, and picking them up seems a distraction.

He wants these pieces to arrive almost ready to fasten; the only job a little tapering fore and aft with the hand power planer he does have.

Oh, and I've argued with him about running the wales full length, but he sees it the way he sees it, no need. Mind set.

P.S. I finally got him to agree to scarfs.

[ 10-10-2004, 01:06 PM: Message edited by: Jack Heinlen ]

[Bruce Hooke]

I still do not see what scarfs gain him, unless he scarfs each side twice to get the lengths down to within UPS limits (9 feet long and 165 inches in length and girth combined). Otherwise, he is going to have to pay someone to mill out the stock and if it has to be shipped he is going to pay truck freight rates, which won't change that much for the extra length, so unless he simply cannot get the wood he wants in the length he needs why not have it milled out of full-length stock?

Could he find a cabinetmaker/custom furniture builder type on the mainland and have them mill the stock? Is there a ferry to the island that they could put the milled stock on or does he ever go to the mainland to get supplies, in which case he could pick it up himself?

[Jack Heinlen]

Maybe I've been out of touch too long, but twenty foot boards were not easy or cheap the last time I looked, hence scarfs. But I was in provincial work, so maybe I'm wrong.

[Bruce Hooke]

Yes, it is true that 20' boards can be hard to come by these days. 20' douglas fir 2x stock should be fairly easy to find (although it may take some hunting through the stack to find a clear enough piece), but hardwoods are likely to be tougher to find.

At the least I guess my point is that scarfing seems to be a very secondary issue, well behind what I see as the "big ones," which are: who can he find to mill the stock, and how is he going to get the stock delivered once it's been milled. Given that getting it delivered will cost a lot if it has to come any distance it really seems to me to make sense to look locally, which is why I was thinking douglas fir might be a good solution, especially because it should be readily available in long enough lengths from a local lumberyard.

[Bob Smalser]

No barns locally?

20' rafters are common as mud. So are framing carpenters who can do what is needed. Heck, maybe even the lumber yard will do it for him....my local ones would.

[George Roberts]

Jack Heinlen ---

Since your brother has a quote for $6-700, your problem is solved.

If you want to be more involved, send him the money.

[Katherine]

Hello,
There is a lumber yard in Grand Rapids MI that specializes in hard to come by lumber. I use them as a sourche for lumber on the 61 Owens I'm working on. They have a wood shop onsite and can mill to custom specs. They also do a lot of special order work and are used by several of the wooden boat people in the area. I don't have the phone number handy, but the name of the shop is The Woodsource and it's down on 29th street.

[Dan McCosh]

Armstrong Millworks, Highland, Michigan, is about 400 miles south, but they both have the lumber and make such custom pieces on order. I once had them tool and cut a custom molding for the cabin house that was about 20 ft. long, out of mahogany. They have a good stock of high-grade boat lumber. Their main business is making custom molding pieces for home construction and restoration. They are excellent people to deal with.

[Jack Heinlen]

Thanks folks. He doesn't have a computer, but is on here occasionally. I'm passing on relevant contacts. Thank you for your interest.

I've been contemplating going for a visit and making these, but there is no access to a woodshop. The thought of turning rough oak into these rails without a planer, not even a decent bench, is a bit daunting. It could be done if I oiled up my elbows a little ;) But it would be much easier to leave at least the rough milling to someone else. I suspect one of the above contacts will pan out to his satisfaction. Any other suggestions are welcome.

This remains a good place. Thanks again.

[Dan Lindberg]

Jack,

There is a W/C canoe builder near the UP Mich/Wis border who sells 20' Ash rail stock. (I think his name is Mark Kerr) maybe he would make a few extra cuts to get them to shape.

A few years ago, they were $20/piece plus shipping, truck to MN was an additional $20/piece.

Dan

[reinbilt]

Jack,
Another source in Ann Arbor MI. is Fingerle Lumber. I've ordered WRC and mahogany in 17 foot boards and I believe they stock it longer. You'll still have the shipping cost of several hundred bucks.